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#393149 - 04/12/12 02:58 AM Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs
WriterKeith Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 945
Loc: southern California
Just a quick reminder, especially for MS newcomers, that Adult Survivors of Abuse (ASA) are a part of us.
I try to steer away from giving advice when in chat. When it's appropriate, I may offer observations from my own journey in hopes it may help someone here. It's hearing what others share about their experience that helps me figure out ways to find my way through it as well.
But this means I can only speak from a CSA perspective, the perspective from my own experiences. I think most survivors do the same. ASA survivors often sit silent kind of waiting for the conversation to broaden and include them (jump in, guys!).
Sorry, ASAs...maybe we CSAs can do better at keeping you in mind in chat conversations, and you can contribute by helping us learn more about ASA.
The more we all learn about ASA and CSA the more empowered we are as a force against abuse. cool

_________________________
"A burned bridge can be a gift; it prevents us from returning to a place we should have never been."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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#393150 - 04/12/12 03:09 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: WriterKeith]
Life's A Dream Offline


Registered: 08/25/11
Posts: 886
Loc: Bouvet Island
Considering the staggering rate of imprisonment, and prison rape of males tolerated and in some cases encouraged by our government, male ASA's are in dire need of support. And I don't mean to leave out male survivors of female perps either, when I say that, considering I was sexually assaulted by a female coworker, who used blackmail to do what she did to me. I hope no one feels left out or forgotten.

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#393177 - 04/12/12 09:40 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: WriterKeith]
KMCINVA Offline
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Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1629
Yes we can help each other. Anyone subject to sexual abuse is a victim-our age at time of abuse does not diminish it from being a violation of bodies,mind and souls. We may have different coping abilities at various times in our lives, but as we have seen no matter the age, each victim reacts differently--recovery, suicide, self abuse, acting out, alcohol and drug abuse to number the pain. It is all about trying to forget or control the abusive situation after it has occurred. We need to honor and respect anyone who has suffered from sexual abuse. Do not let others tell you differently--it was not the victim's choice. We should be here for sexual abuse survivors and those trying to survive and we must remember those lost because of the abuse.


Edited by KMCINVA (04/12/12 09:43 AM)

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#393252 - 04/12/12 10:40 PM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: WriterKeith]
Smalltown80sBoy Offline
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Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 2217
removed per user


Edited by ModTeam (05/02/13 01:39 PM)

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#393281 - 04/13/12 03:19 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: WriterKeith]
WriterKeith Offline
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Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 945
Loc: southern California
Something I have to wonder, and it's a painful point, but it is common for CSAs to be blamed for the assault. Do adult male survivors get blamed even more than CSAs?

For example, my mother was not a fool, she was not evil, she was not uncaring, she was not cruel or mean-spirited. Yet, when as an adult I spoke of the abuse with her for the first time, she responded with, "It's your own fault. You should have told somebody. You should have fought them off. You should have.. you should have... you should have...." And even when I explained that I was a 4 year old being restrained by 2 men with electrical wire around my ankles, she replied, "I don't care... you should have.."

I've gotten similar responses a few times when I confided in the wrong friend about it. I believe it's because the general public is completely ignorant on the issue and denial is their way of putting blinders on. From what I've heard here on MS, it is a very common reaction.

I have to wonder how much more an adult survivor faces this type of reaction when looking for a shoulder to lean on or any kind of help.
_________________________
"A burned bridge can be a gift; it prevents us from returning to a place we should have never been."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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#393297 - 04/13/12 08:11 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: WriterKeith]
prisonerID Offline
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Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
When I returned to my home town I was greeted with rumors. There were assumptions that I had been on a date gone wrong, was so drunk in a club I set myself up and so on. Not that if any of those things had happened it still would not have been rape.

A very common reaction was "did you fight back?". Mostly it was a desire on the other person to know what I did to try to avoid it and to stop it. Like I was looking for two men to attack me out of nowhere and take me for a full night to torture, beat and rape me.

The common reaction to most abuse is still skepticism. In the work I do I see staff who are doubtful of most abuse claims. Kids of both genders face this and so do adult women. And if someone is going to doubt a kid or an adult female then questioning a grown and healthy man is something pretty automatic.

I stopped confiding long ago but if I were to do so today I could do it with much more strength of character. I know it was not my fault and I did the best I could under the circumstances I found myself in that night. If you look at "My Story" here you will see that I was very careful to make sure that it was apparent that I tried to get away. I looked back on that a year after I wrote it and saw how meticulous I was about that. That even here, in a grouping of survivors, I had to make sure the audience saw that I put out an effort to stop the attacks. It is something that is very hard not to over do.

But as a human with a survivor's mind I still wince at things I read and when I think on past reactions of others.

All any survivor wants to hear is "it was not your fault". That would include any ASA man as well.

What is harmful for so many of us in this category is the lack of resources, public acknowledgments or efforts on the part of the therapeutic community. Right now the only emphasis I see is directed at two populations: military and those incarcerated. I am thrilled to see movements in these two areas. But I find it sad that one must be in an extreme situation for a man to be considered at risk for being assaulted. There are no banners or marches on Washington for those like me who simply was raped and happens to be male. That pushes the shame on men like me even more to the extent of self blame.

With a heavy sigh I am resigned that society is far from doing much else concerning this. I hope it is better for the ones to come who will need these resources. With many years of off and on therapy and the hand of God I am doing pretty good overall.

You raised a very good question here.


Daryl
_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

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#393299 - 04/13/12 09:24 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: WriterKeith]
earlybird Offline
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Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 1007
Loc: WA USA
Thanks WriterKeith, for tapping at the door.
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Balanced (My goal)

There is symmetry
In self-reflection
Life exemplified
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#393323 - 04/13/12 12:12 PM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: WriterKeith]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL

I'm sorry that happened to you, Daryl (and anyone else). Rape is rape. I think the rape of kids is far worse due to dependency and a mind that isn't fully formed yet. That just seems logical. But, don't see the rape of adult males much different than the rape of adult females. All want to be heard.

I think society does understand males raping males, except in prison (sad). It's the adult male being raped by a female they have the hardest time with. I had a hard time with that (and so did the rest of the class) in college. Once guy turned 14, most didn't believe in female on male rape either. I would say the women came around 10x faster than the guys. Guys outside the class discussions said, "Yeah, bullshit!" It only changed the opinions of me and one other guy out of 8-9 guys. Most of it, we just didn't know. It was eye-opening and it's just not a public issue. This was pre-CSA knowledge of my own.

Just a question: are that statistics on male rape outside of prisons (prison is hell and it makes sense more rape happens there)? I know every two minutes someone is raped (44% of those under 18). RAINN doesn't talk about gender in those stats. I've read 1 in 10 of rapes are men. If true, that's rape of a male every 20 minutes. One of the sickest stats I saw is "40% of Black women under 18 are raped." Females 16-24 are 3 times more likely than anyone to be raped. 1 in 7 women are even assaulted by their husbands. What about wives assaulting husbands? Very little research outside of prisons.

The resources are undeniably for women. It's coming around for boys. Just not for men. In the hospital, I saw the women get far more concern than the guys in groups. My own therapists didn't want to discuss it much at all. A few I don't think gave it much thought. Ignore it and it'll go away. That's society's attitude in the first place even with girls. Let's give money to a crisis shelter, not have in our neighborhood and forget it. I remember even RAINN wasn't that helpful to me either (or other guys from what I read). No offense to anyone. Just doesn't seem to be much on adult male rape outside of prison. It sucks. I'd love to know more. Knowledge is power. Outside of the shrink, no one believed me either in the so-called support system called "family."


Edited by phoenix321 (04/13/12 12:15 PM)
Edit Reason: add
_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

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#393362 - 04/13/12 09:39 PM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: WriterKeith]
WriterKeith Offline
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Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 945
Loc: southern California
Excellent post and explanation, Daryl.
_________________________
"A burned bridge can be a gift; it prevents us from returning to a place we should have never been."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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#393365 - 04/13/12 10:16 PM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: WriterKeith]
Anomalous Offline
Greeter Coordinator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 03/07/10
Posts: 1344
*************** TRIGGER ALERT ***************




Hi Keith,

Thank you for opening this discussion again.

Another thread in this forum Can I Understand? addresses the questions and the issues about which you ask.

For far too long I have observed a "CSA / ASA" divide, as if one group felt that what had been done to them was "worse" than what had been done to the other.

Nothing is further from the truth.

It is all horrific, and each person who has been sexually abused or assauted, regardless of age, and regardless of the frequency or the level of physical violence experienced, has been harmed in a way no person should ever expereince.

Is this to say there are not differences?

Certainly not.

Referring back to the post linked above regarding adult males who have been sexually assaulted/ raped (I am temporarily omitting adult males who have been abused for the moment, or those in prison), society does not want to hear about it.

The automatic reaction is to blame that male for having been assaulted, except in some very narrow situations. Adult males who are hospitalized or in some other institutions (convalescent centers, psychiatric hospitals, etc.) are generally not blamed for having been assaulted.

However, their ASSAULTER blames them for being too "sick, weak, unmanly," etc. Basically, as most rapists, the rapist blames their victim. A victim they chose for the very reasons they use to denegrate and degrade the person they chose to assualt.

Outside of those settings (and, again, omitting prisons for the moment) adults males who are sexually assaulted/ raped are automatically blamed. They are told things like "you must have wanted it," "you weren't man enough to fight them off," "I would NEVER have LET it happen to me!!"

If the assault was committed by a female, the denegration of the man who was assualted is even worse, espeically by other males. Unfortunately, if a man tells a therapist he was raped by a date, girlfriend or wife, he is usually accused of having wanted to sexually experiment, but since things didn't "feel as good as he thought they would," he is now "remorseful" and is "crying rape." Some of those ignorant therapists compound the problem by telling the client that "men cannot be raped.

For the man who took a chance at seeking help for the assault, after hearing such blaming, shaming and terrible things, he will probably never go back to therapy. Instead, he will carry those hurtful words and continue to blame himself rather than take the chance with a qualified therapist who will help him see that he was never wrong. What was done to him was wrong.

Society views males who have been assaulted as weak, ineffective, lacking masculinity, and as men unworthy of consideration as mates. Afterall, if he couldn't protect himself, what good is he?

There is a double standard when it comes to rape.

Women are told to do anything that assures your survival. If that means being raped, let it happen. The goal is to survive.

Males aren't given that message. In fact, the message is quite the opposite.

Rather than being told the goal is survival, men are told to never "let" it happen, at any cost. If you have to lose your life in the procces to make sure you don't get raped, do it.

If you happen to be the male who chose to live, you are scorned and ridiculed, by males, females, and far too many therapists.

Males who have dangerous and "macho" positions, such as the military, law enforcement, fire fighters, etc. receive an extra heap of that shame and ridicule.

Society wants to close their eyes to the reality that adult males get raped. And when adult males get raped, it is usually combined with a very high level of violence.

But instead of giving adult males who were raped a chance to talk about the experience, the message is that this is a taboo subject and NEVER talk about it. Afterall, you don't want others to know you couldn't "take care of yourself."

Men are blamed for being raped. They are accused of "letting it happen."

The other segment of adult males who are shamed into silence are the adult males who are being abused.

I differentially use the terms abuse and assualted/ raped.

Assault (the term currently in use regarding the rape of males) and rape (the term slowly coming into use) are one in the same. It it usually (but not always) a single, violent act, that might be done by a known or unknown person (or group). It is no uncommon for a man to be raped by the same person/ group over time (especially those in hospitals and other care facilities). For the moment, I am not discussing prisons.

The definition of rape starting to be used is: a penis or object insterted into the vagina or the anus, or a penis inserted into the mouth.

Abuse occurs on a frequent basis, at the hands of the same person or people. While there might be violence involved, it is usually less violent (but necessarily so) than the rapes mentioned above.

Some abusers are the very people that are supposed to be the caretakers of people with medical or physical difficulties. Daily bathing becomes an abusers opportunity to abuse. The abuser may hold their charge "hostage" -- withholding cleaning or changing, physical activiity, food, water or medication until their "ransom" is paid. Whether the abuser is hired help, live-in help, friend, former lover, or a room mate or housemate, they use their role of "caring" as an excuse to repeatedly abuse.

This type of sexual abuse also includes a lot of emotional abuse -- "head games." Telling the adult male over and over that it is his "fault" for "letting it happen." And that no one will believe him.

If it happened once and he told, then perhaps he would be believed. But since he "let" it "happen" repeatedly, the only thing people will believe is that he "wanted it." And if you "wanted it" it couldn't be "abuse."

Abusers are master manipulators. They know how to take from others what they want, and assure the silence of their victims by instilling such a deep sense of shame and blame in them that the victims remain quiet.

The abuser also tells the person they are abusing that they are having a "relationship." The abuser might also say things like they are "teaching" their less expeirienced "partner" how to be sexual and how to "properly" please their next "partner." If the abuser is the same gender/ gender identity as the person they are abusing, the abuser says things like "I'm teaching you how to make love to both sexes. Why settle for only half of the population?"

Since their victim didn't come forward after the 2nd, or 3rd, or 4th, or 5th time it happened, he feels he cannot come forward.

How could anyone believe him since he waited so long? How can he possibly explain not coming forth after the first time?

These matters get even more complicated when the abuser is a family member or someone held in high regard by a family member.

How can the man being repeatedly abused come forth, when to do so will be to cause harm to the family member/ unit? How can you risk being blamed for either "cheating" with this person (who might be in a relationship with a family member) or accusing a family member of something so "disgusting?"

If the man being abused cannot financially afford to leave the household, he is enslaven to the abuse, physically, emotionally and sexually. Saying "no" to the sexual abuser can have violent and deadly consequences.

The abused male is also very isolated. Since he did not tell when it first happened, he abuser has just made him his property, to do with as often and what- and whenever he pleases. The abused male cannot now go to a family member and discuss this, so relationships become distant. He blames himself for "letting" the abuse happen, and he is ashamed. The abuser tells him he will be accused of "cheating" on the abuser's girlfriend or boyfriend, so there are additional layers of shame, blame, disgust, self loathing and self hatred.

Since the abuser is in close physical proximity, he has the ability to control whether or not the abused is able to have the opportunity to work, work over-time or get a second job. The abuser doesn't want their "prize" to ever have the means to leave. The grip of control over all aspects of life is a stranglehold that does not stop, and which seemingly cannot be broken.

It is also not uncommon for the abuser to take control over the finances of the abused. He learns how much money the abused has, and always seems to be in need of just that much. Mail is opened and all aspects of privacy are violated.

Other family members, who are not aware of the abuse, only see a growing tension between the two individuals. Unwittingly, they "blame" the abused for causing conflict, or not wanting to join in activities. They blame the abused for making things "uncomfortable." To maintain the secret and family harmony, the abused remins silent, and diligently does what is demanded of him.

Where the adult male who was raped is truely blamelss, the adult male who has been sexually abused for a long period of time blames himself. "I kept going back for more," even if that was only to lessen the duration each episode of abuse would last, is an expression of self blame and responsibility, and not an understanding that it was a survival strategy.

There are many more layers of complexity and difficulty regarding an adult male who endures repeated abuse, sometimes daily and lasting for years.

Joining converstations in chat are .... tricky.

There are some on both sides of the abuse expereince who do not want to discuss their experiences with someone "who cannot understand" - code for not having the same abuse experience.

There are still some here who are of the opinion the CSA is "worse" that ASA.

Some guys are just too shy to jump in, or are too afraid the self blame and recriminations they tell themselves migh be said to them by anohter, confirming their feelings of worthlessness.

Others, who have experienced both CSA and ASA feel they do not fit in. If they join a coversation about CSA, they feel unwelcome to discuss anything related to ASA.

Any ASA converstations that might be taking place are ususally hijacked into CSA-only conversations. That either forces the guys with ASA experiences to leave, or just take their conversation into another room. Most of the time they just leave, feeling once again, their experiences are not important and, by extension, neither are they.

To give you an example of the magnitude to which ASA is ignored by both society and the therapuetic community, look at this list of ASA Resources. Pay particular attention to the book section. There are FIVE books written exclusively about, and for, men with ASA experiences.

Now, look closer at those titles. They are all about the rape of adult males (though I do not know if any of them refer to female aggressors), but NONE of them speak of the expereince of adult males who are repeatedly sexually abused.

Those of us who experienced the latter, become the educators of those who are supposed to help us.

The rape of adult males outside of prison is only now being considered important "enough" to research and about which to write.

But there are many of us who aren't even a blip on the therapeutic research screens.

Education, not only of those in the therapeutic communities, and of society at large, but here, at places like MS is going to be the key to bridge the CSA/ ASA chasm and to get rid of notions such as "one is worse than the other, etc." OUT of the conversations.

Just because a person might have been chronologically older, doens't mean they were any less naieve about sex than a four year old. And just because a person was physically taller than their aggressor, doesn't mean they were a match for that aggressor, group of aggressors or the drugs weapons involved.

In battling between ourselves as to who "had it worse," or "who was hurt more," "who has more damage to overcome," or "who has a harder time healing," etc., we are diminishing each and every one of ourselves, and our experiences.

We have all been hurt, in ways no one should ever have been hurt.

More importantly, we all need to heal, and we all have a right to heal.

It is easier for us to heal together than it is for us to heal alone. Afterall, that is why we joined this site -- to no longer be alone.






Anomalous


Edited by Anomalous (04/14/12 01:07 AM)
_________________________
Acceptance on someone else's terms is worse than rejection.

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#393367 - 04/13/12 10:29 PM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: Anomalous]
prisonerID Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
Anomalous,

I cannot think of how this could have been worded better, been more informative or in fact be more eloquent. I am very appreciative for every word you wrote here.


Daryl
_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

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#393378 - 04/14/12 01:15 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: Anomalous]
Smalltown80sBoy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 2217
removed per user


Edited by ModTeam (05/02/13 01:39 PM)

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#393396 - 04/14/12 02:32 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: WriterKeith]
peroperic2009 Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/11
Posts: 3603
Loc: South-East Europe
This is great thread!
Giving labels, being unsupportive, exclusive, hurtfully selfish and authoritative - those are just some of unpleasant traits that we all felt hard on our skin by societies or maybe by some family members and even friends.
We should work hard on nurturing culture of dialogue here.
We have to learn how to share warmth and empathy to all people on equal terms, otherwise we are same just like some bad guys......
No matter if we are talking about someone who is CSA, ASA or whatever, we are all the same: fragile human beings who need some love and understanding.
Let us be more supportive to each other, lets heal all trough giving some support and exchange of experiences.
That mustn't be hard; we went trough much more difficult situations already smile !
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My story

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#393406 - 04/14/12 05:18 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: WriterKeith]
WriterKeith Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 945
Loc: southern California
Guys, it seems apparent that we need to be talking about this issue. If there is a division in the community of men who have survived sexual assaults then we are cutting ourselves off from the very place to find healing, strength and courage.

ASAs and CSAs please keep talking here. Educating ourselves on these issues is our most powerful muscle builder for the cause of healing and prevention.
_________________________
"A burned bridge can be a gift; it prevents us from returning to a place we should have never been."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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#393879 - 04/18/12 04:05 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: peroperic2009]
WriterKeith Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 945
Loc: southern California
Originally Posted By: peroperic2009
This is great thread!
Giving labels, being unsupportive, exclusive, hurtfully selfish and authoritative - those are just some of unpleasant traits that we all felt hard on our skin by societies or maybe by some family members and even friends.
We should work hard on nurturing culture of dialogue here.
We have to learn how to share warmth and empathy to all people on equal terms, otherwise we are same just like some bad guys......
No matter if we are talking about someone who is CSA, ASA or whatever, we are all the same: fragile human beings who need some love and understanding.
Let us be more supportive to each other, lets heal all trough giving some support and exchange of experiences.
That mustn't be hard; we went trough much more difficult situations already smile !


That's an important point, and I also appreciate what Gary and Anomolous said on the matter.

I was caught by surprise when someone in MS chat once said, "I feel so bad, like I don't belong here, because my abuse was just once and everyone else here had ongoing abuse." We were all quick to explain that it takes just one single event of sexual violation to completely rewire someone's subconscious mind. Any further or repeated assaults seem to reinforce what has already been set in motion. There is no "worse than, better than." It's a traumatic experience, period.


_________________________
"A burned bridge can be a gift; it prevents us from returning to a place we should have never been."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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#393983 - 04/19/12 12:23 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: WriterKeith]
CruxFidelis Offline


Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 486
Loc: NJ
Originally Posted By: WriterKeith
We were all quick to explain that it takes just one single event of sexual violation to completely rewire someone's subconscious mind. Any further or repeated assaults seem to reinforce what has already been set in motion. There is no "worse than, better than." It's a traumatic experience, period.



This is very validating to me. I often struggle with the question of how the heck did I get to be so messed up because of ~8 days (I think)? ASA can be a fleeting but extremely intense, violent and traumatic, and it can be an ongoing abuse situation that can last for years. Either way it creates damage and there is no way to say what is "worse." Whether it was an ongoing abuse situation in adulthood, or a single instance of assault, it is horrible trauma and very different. There is a very different bereavement going on. The CSA survivor mourns his lost childhood innocence. For me, I had a clear picture of who I was and what I wanted out of life. I had already "settled down" with my wife, my life wasn't great (obviously Iwas in the hospital) but I knew what I was made of and felt confident about that, the way any man should. I don't know who I am right now, but I am certainly not that man, I might look like him and have the same birth certificate and social security card, but that's about it.

One could say that at least I had a childhood, at least I had the opportunity to be a boy, and to develop in a healthy way. That may be the case, but whatever I had was completely taken away from me, and called into question. We both mourn, we both hurt, and i think a lot of us struggle as men to reconcile these experiences with the desire to be thought of as strong & masculine. In that way we are the same.
_________________________
“If a man wishes to be sure of the road he treads on, he must close his eyes and walk in the dark.”

- Saint John of the Cross

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#394083 - 04/19/12 03:51 PM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: WriterKeith]
WriterKeith Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 945
Loc: southern California
CruxFidelis,
I'm glad you put these thoughts out there to help others understand ASA.

This has been on my mind for a while, the ASA and CSA finding their way together matter. As far as sharing and supporting each other on the web site, I think the bottom line is, when a man is at the stage of first disclosing and going through the early stages of talking about it, he greatly benefits from the compassion and testimonials of others whose experience were similar to his.

As a survivor moves into the stage of restructuring his thoughts, picking up the pieces, and focusing on healing and managing symptoms, the greater the diversity of input the better. The focus is no longer in the rear view mirror, but on current steps and the road ahead. It gives him a larger tool box from which to choose what works for him.

Thoughts?
_________________________
"A burned bridge can be a gift; it prevents us from returning to a place we should have never been."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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#398375 - 05/25/12 02:46 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: WriterKeith]
WriterKeith Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 945
Loc: southern California
ASAs, it's your turn at the mic. We're listening.
_________________________
"A burned bridge can be a gift; it prevents us from returning to a place we should have never been."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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#398383 - 05/25/12 05:38 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: WriterKeith]
dark empathy Offline
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Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 1963
Loc: durham, north england
One question I would ask, is what exactly is the difference betwene csa and asa anyway?

My own experiences happened at secondary school betwene 12 and 15. Legally I was not an adult so this was csa, however the abuse was in context of pretty serious bullying. There is no deffinition of rape that covers it, indeed the idea of girls gan raping a boy is pretty much outside all legal deffinitions, but when my mum suddenly and abruptly used the word some time later it fit pretty well.

However this wasn't an adult abusing a child, but a group of same age kids abusing one other in school simply for something to do, with a lot of violence, insults and humiliation thrown in for good measure.

Thus, while I can employ empathy for those who experienced abuse by a family member, or even by an adult in position of power, I have no experience that is similar at all or has any baring on it.

With me there was no emotional attachment, no head games, just an attempt at "jokes" that went beyond all boundaries, indeed as Cs lewis says, any act of evil however monstrous can be made acceptable if it can be disguised as a joke.

i doubt the people involved even remember what they did, or considdered at the time that it was in any sense abusive, ---- it was just " a joke" despite the fact that it has had a major effect on my life, self esteme and pretty much destroyed any chance of me having a relationship with anyone.

I'm pretty sure there are adult male survivers who have had similar experiences to this, ie, abuse in the context of bullying and jokes by a gang of people against one victim in a very public arena.

Neither was I utterly unaware of what was happening. when i was ten, My parents had completely explained what s/x was, what my body did, even what mb was and explained to me it was all fine, ---- indeed I think the fact that I simply treated s/x as a comparatively uninteresting but necessary part of growing up rather than the source of what seemed to me at the time excessively stupid jokes was another force behind the abuse, sinse again it alionated me from those around me.

while I looked a lot younger than my age, I was probably a great deal older and more mature mentally and emotionally, indeed when I was thirteen I was invited to a seminar on the holocaust organized by the councel for christians and Jews for ages 18-25, ---- "because I came across more like an 18 year old" probably a consequence of me losing my sight at age 7, then leaving home a year later and having to cope with what was tantamount to emotional abuse at boarding school for two years.

So, was I a child? were those involved children?

it seems to me that assuming that there is a magic transformation that happens when a person get to age 18 is rather ridiculous, indeed in many parts of the world "child" is simply a biological state at best, and once someone is old enough to be physically developed, ---- anywhere from 12 to 16, they're pretty much considdered an adult.

I've also met more than my share of stupid, naive and childish people right from 18 to goodness knows what.

So myself I'd much rather remove the csa asa distinction altogether and just talk of abuse generally. some stories will be similar, some not, some adults will have similarities to csa survivers and visa versa, but the key fact is the unwanted s/xual contact, the power of one person or group of people over another, and the lasting damage this does.

About society and gender, the amount of sexism towards men i find utterly unbelieveable, especially the fact that people don't realize! it is sexism.

even my mum, who in most senses I'd considder very open minded occasionally comes out with sentences like "your place is really clean for a single man" which is utterly ridiculous!

The double standard towards men and women is insane. if girls want to be traditionally female, ---- that's fine, sinse their women. If they want to do something else, that's fine too, sinse their liberated women!

This is true just about anywhere from behaviour to appearence, ---- when can a man care about his appearence at all and not be thought feminine?

And I won't even start on the question of relationships and dating behaviour sinse that one makes me feel absolutely insensed!

And the abuse statistics are just wrong, indeed I never even considdered what happened to me to be abuse because of this, and on several occasions the girls involved got me! into trouble for doing things to them!

Why is it perfectly okay for several girls to wrip a boy's trousers off in public but not for boys to do the same thing to a girl?

Sorry, getting carried away here.

Either way, society is so unbelieveably wrong on this point it makes me sick. I'd love to actually write a paper on it, but I'm afraid how angry doing the research for it would make m.

At least though at ms, even when people haven't actually had the same experiences, they can generate a sufficient amount of empathy about others to cover the gap, which is why this is such a great community, whether or not people's experiences are similar.

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#398388 - 05/25/12 08:08 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: WriterKeith]
prisonerID Offline
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dark empathy,

I can easily agree with almost everything you had to say here except for one thing. There are base similarities between those males abused as children and assaulted as adults. But there are also differing layers involved with each population. To remove the distinctions is not separating the two into different camps or placing them on opposing sides. It is merely the recognition of the two areas of "abuse".

Your comments on society do ring very true and I apply that to the therapeutic community as well. The lack of interest there for men assaulted as adults is very evident in the lack of research or resources for the survivors. I can attest to beating the pavement in person for years as well as contacting many internet based programs that serve male abuse survivors. I was greeted kindly by the internet organizations but told that they did not have anything for someone like me but only served CSA survivors. This ranged from 1in6 to others in this land all the way to Canada.

My point of argument against your suggestion that we simply talk of it all in the abuse arena without distinction is two fold. One being that almost all men here are CSA and the discussions do lend to that spectrum for the most part as expected. The second being that if that would cover all for men like me then why have a male oriented sexual abuse survivor site? MS was created due to the recognition that men have differing issues than women. Just as adult women who have been raped and those abused as children share a common base and yet have differing issues as well.

For me it is more about an organization, any organization, taking on the issues specific to male adult sexual assault and carrying the banner in the same way it would for male CSA. We have many issues out there: military, prisons and of course those like me who were attacked in civilian life. I am not seeking categorization so much as simple recognition. Like I have written on this site several times - "we all like to see our names".

I think your comment was a sincere and caring one and I appreciate the intent of it. All men should be included here as survivors of sexual "abuse". But I never felt like I was drawing a line of separation in the sand when I asked for distinctions and recognition concerning myself being an adult male who was raped.

My angst is not with any man here but with the therapeutic community that still does not see the need to address men like me. And it is with the organizations who really do not have enough empathy except for ones who have experiences like themselves. I do not say that with anger or in harshness. But in recovery we not only need to face the truth within ourselves but also the truths of those around them.

I have come to a point in my life where I can only say, for my own sanity and the sake of my own recovery, that like Whitney Houston sang - "It's Not Right But It's Okay".

Thank you for sharing your heart here. I found a lot of good thoughts expressed here.


Daryl
_________________________
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#398391 - 05/25/12 08:49 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: WriterKeith]
dark empathy Offline
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Posts: 1963
Loc: durham, north england
Hi daryl.

I admit that I haven't had too much experience with other organizations that support male victims at all than ones connected with ms, so I just didn't know that there was, ---- as well as a bias in favour of female victims of abuse, even a bias in those few who recognized abuse of males in favour of victims of csa.

I simply didn't know that was the case, and I think it's pretty dire if so. I also completely understand why in that case you really want the experiences of asa survivers recognized specifically ---- indeed as a victim of unconventional gang rape at the hands of girls I can absolutely empathize with that one.

My only concern, and the reason I brought up the question of similarities, is one of privaliged experience. There's a really frightening tendency in society, with any group whether that's race, religion, skin colour, disability, particular country of origin and most especially gender (particularly I might say the female gender), to say "I'm an x! sinse your not, you can never understand what it is like to be an x! these experiences are ours! begger off!"

While I don't think it's likely on ms, I really would hate to see this sort of situation develope in a split betwene asa and csa survivers, which is why i raised the question of similarity and of abuse.

personally i'd prefer a situation where everybody's story of abuse was treated as their own, individual story and not catagorized in the least, irrispective of the gender or age of the victim or perpetrator. All of our experiences are different, and some may be more similar than others, which is indeed what we have our faculty of empathy and imagination for.

if however there is indeed an additional social bias against asa mail survivers in addition to that against male victims generally, I do see the need for extra recognition and attention, though as you said yourself society is biased so in favour of women as needing protection, expression and independence and men as dum, stupid apes who follow one path only and are worth less, that any attempt to change people's atitudes seems damnably difficult.

Luke.

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#398409 - 05/25/12 05:58 PM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: WriterKeith]
lapchinj Online   content
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After reading all these "right on" posts I think that it would be more practical to handle these subjects separately. I am a csa survivor and I really don't know much about ASA survivor issues that they face and I would imagine they are different in many ways. I agree 100% that either asa or csa, long term short term, once or a hundred times makes no difference on my nightmare being worse than your nightmare.

I have gone to many threads on asa and have left because I would not have any input that is useful. I was also a little nervous because of the issues between the groups (which I've never seen in action) and didn't want to get involved. But I guess that's the same way an asa guy feels when he comes to a csa thread.

I don't know why the csa side of MS grew so big and the asa side not (I'm assuming) but I would imagine that we have to try and get more asa guys to join us all here so that we have a large enough community for each that make it all of us can help one another. I know that they are out there and for some reason they are no finding their way here.

I must mention that I've had a big problem here in csa that I have talked over with my T. Even though my abuse from the time I was 10 until I went to the USAF was varied. I had abuse that I thought only physical but my T said it was also sexual. I did porn movies for a year where I was drugged and beaten and cattle prodded up my ass. then there was the loving one that I had from 12 to 18 with my coach who pimped me and was the best father I ever had. But you see as I told my T that I didn't hate my coach, I loved him. And I see here were most of the guys talk of hating their abusers who were mostly family members. I see that in the papers also survivors hate their abusers. I don't fit in I don't know what to say to someone that was abused by a mother or father. I never had that. I always thought that I was crazy. I'm gay with a wife (that's another story) not a husband and I was a fucken prostitute on top of all that. So while I can empathize with other csa survivors I just don't fit in that well in any category. And besides the guys I know I don't join in on those incest threads just as I don't join in on asa threads, I have no useful input.

I never looked at the split between csa and asa until I read about the fights. but not everyone fits into every type of abuse whether asa or csa, besides if they were a closer fit in reality then it would be called simply male abuse. I would hope that as the site grows the communities will also grow (very sad though). Where we can work together that's great where abuse concerns one or another community that community is better equipped to handle it.

I hope I didn't offend anyone and that my thinking holds some water. I'm not trying to be disrespectful in any way, shape or form. I just think that grapefruits are not oranges but they are very similar and both are fruits.

I wish everyone here a better experience in healing.

Peace,Rainbows & Healing
Jeff
_________________________
Stick around, It will get better....

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#398420 - 05/25/12 09:04 PM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: WriterKeith]
Smalltown80sBoy Offline
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Edited by ModTeam (05/02/13 01:38 PM)

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#398432 - 05/26/12 12:26 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: Smalltown80sBoy]
CruxFidelis Offline


Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 486
Loc: NJ
Originally Posted By: Smalltown80sBoy
My personal experience has been that my CSA was worse than ASA. I'm not saying CSA is always worse; I'm just saying it was worse for me. Maybe it's because the CSA went on for years and involved family and ASA was two separate one time only situations with strangers.


I respect your experience and I am sure that having gone through CSA early on does affect the way a man experiences and deals with ASA later on. My therapist often tells me that the brain is an amazing survival machine that has to adjust itself to cope with trauma so the person can continue functioning. I grew up with an abuse free childhood and had never gone through any kind of sexual trauma before my assault 2 1/2 years ago, and I feel like my brain's completely F'ed up. I am not the same husband, father, brother, friend or son I was before I was raped because my brain and body were both drastically changed because of the rape.

It could be that having undergone trauma as a child might make the ASA seem "less bad" because the brain already has neural patterns in place. from what I know about CSA (my wife went through it on two occasions), dissociation is very common and she still goes into a dissociative state when she finds herself overwhelmed.

Just because a person has already gone through abuse before, does not make further abuse "not as bad," though, I think. It still shouldn't have happened to you at any age.

As an ASA man, I feel like most organizations that cater toward survivors minimize my experience. There is so little awareness of the fact that rape can happen to a grown man, and because we don't fit into the more common abuse "cliches" our experiences are pushed into a background. Many books geared toward male survivors are entirely geared toward CSA survivors with a few paragraphs about male ASA that basically say that it happens, it's underreported, and little is said about it. We need MORE than a chapter, people! I'd like to be treated like my story and experience matter, and not just an afterthought.

Rape shouldn't happen to ANYONE. PERIOD. Regardless of age, gender, sexual preference, disability, race, etc.

It doesn't matter if it's 1 in 6 (for male CSA) or 1 in 33 (for male ASA). Just because it's less common and fewer men report doesn't give any organization or therapist an excuse to minimize or marginalize. Even if the statistics were 1 in 6 billion, it still would be wrong, and it still should NEVER happen. to ANYONE.

Every time I come on this board and read about men being sexually abused in childhood, it fills my heart with a lot of pain. I never went through CSA, and I can't imagine going through the after effects. Whenever I hear about CSA happening, it makes me want to go to wherever my son is and hug him, just to know that he's safe. I definitely attribute being a member here as one of my reasons why I actively would choose to homeschool and why I worry whenever he is being cared for by anyone that is not myself, his mom or a family member that I trust. I don't want him in daycare or preschool. CSA is something I find incredibly gut wrenching, tragic and heart breaking, but is not something I actually have experienced personally, and so there are a lot of aspects of the common male CSA experience that I can have compassion for, but not share on a personal level. I think as survivors there are a lot of things we go through in common, but I think it would be good if more were done to address issues unique to male ASA the way there are books written and conferences about male CSA.

I don't think that comparing the experiences is particularly helpful because it's like comparing apples to goats. I already feel like most people on this site would say that what I went through wasn't as bad, because I had the chance to have a childhood, and I had the mature adult perspective that a child lacks. Maybe that's true, but rape will strip even a grown man of any dignity he ever thought he had, and it has the power to completely unravel someone all the same. Neither experience is a walk in the park and each has its unique challenges, and it sucks to be minimized and disbelieved regardless of when the abuse happened. So I think the best thing we can do as CSA and ASA survivors is to understand that everyone here is deserving of support and validation, and to offer that regardless of whether their experiences look like your own.
_________________________
“If a man wishes to be sure of the road he treads on, he must close his eyes and walk in the dark.”

- Saint John of the Cross

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#398433 - 05/26/12 12:27 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: Anomalous]
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
Sexual violence is sexual violence. Sexual violence directed at children is essentially the same as sexual violence directed at an adult since at its core is an abuse of power, which adults of either gender can be subject to and victimized by just as a child can, albeit in different circumstances. How one deals with the aftermath of it is quite different since adults by nature have coping skills that children do not but the meaning behind the victimization is the same in my opinion.
_________________________
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.


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#398434 - 05/26/12 12:57 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: jls]
CruxFidelis Offline


Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 486
Loc: NJ
Originally Posted By: jls
adults by nature have coping skills that children do not

When it comes to sexual assault, the only way I knew to cope was to shut down. I basically went a long time where I barely talked to anyone and sunk into a dissociated depression that lasted formonths. I think the man I was before the assault would wanted to do anything he could to get out of it or cope with it. I think if there was a way to end the abuse, i would have utilized it. This is why I oppose the PTSD diagnosis, because it some how implies that there was a better way I could have coped somehow. But I didn't , so I'm slapped with a big fat DISORDER
_________________________
“If a man wishes to be sure of the road he treads on, he must close his eyes and walk in the dark.”

- Saint John of the Cross

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#398436 - 05/26/12 01:18 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: CruxFidelis]
Smalltown80sBoy Offline
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Edited by ModTeam (05/02/13 01:37 PM)

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#398437 - 05/26/12 01:42 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: Smalltown80sBoy]
CruxFidelis Offline


Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 486
Loc: NJ
I'm sorry if my post made you think that everything I was ranting about was a response to what you said. I am not going to lie, I think maybe your statement about how your ASA was not as bad as the CSA maybe struck a nerve within me and triggered my "fight back" instincts, but perhaps that wasn't a rational reaction. I do have a lot of discontent toward the current "system" by which our society handles sexual assaults and the way the mental health system has treated male ASA survivors. I have had 2 hospitalizations where I have asked to talk to a T during my time there, and they have sent me T's that have minimized the assault or dismissed me entirely. I have seen how entire organizations devoted to sexual assault recovery ignore male victims, and I guess I have a huge chip on my shoulder. I should not have taken what you said personally and I'm sorry for that.

I do like the idea of doing an ASA chat or HC here, and would participate if such a thing was offered.

I agree that a "my pain is worse than yours" contest isn't helpful to anyone. However, I think that since a lot of the recovery community either ignores or minimizes the male ASA experience, I know for me, I feel on the defensive a lot of the time and I always feel like I have to justify why my assault was "that bad" and why more support for men like me should become available.
_________________________
“If a man wishes to be sure of the road he treads on, he must close his eyes and walk in the dark.”

- Saint John of the Cross

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#398439 - 05/26/12 02:27 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: CruxFidelis]
Smalltown80sBoy Offline
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Edited by ModTeam (05/02/13 01:37 PM)

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#398441 - 05/26/12 02:38 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: WriterKeith]
Smalltown80sBoy Offline
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Edited by ModTeam (05/02/13 01:36 PM)

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#398450 - 05/26/12 07:28 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: CruxFidelis]
dark empathy Offline
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Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 1963
Loc: durham, north england
The funny thing is crux fidalis, I actually could've just about written a lot of your post myself.

I had a very happy childhood in terms of family, and still get on very well with my parents and my brother. While I feel great sympathy and compassion for men who had abuse happen at home, or by an adult, I have absolutely no experience of that whatsoever, and frequently find that I really can't comment when people are discussing adult abuse of a child, or relationships to their parents or other adults in their lives.

this isn't to say that what I went through was exactly like an asa surviver, only that as I said earlier, I don't think the distinction is quite as clear cut as it seems. While I fully agree there needs to be more recognition of adult male asa survivers in the media or in professional literature, when it comes to this site I'm not quite as sure things are as polarised as the initial asa/csa setup would suggest.

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#398464 - 05/26/12 12:55 PM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: CruxFidelis]
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
When I referred to coping skills I was speaking about to do with the aftermath, not with the assault itself. I'm sorry if you misunderstood me about that. With any sexual assualt or abuse, of course it strains the abilities of the survivor to deal with what happened to them, no matter what age they are. I was just making reference to the obvious, which is that adults have better abilities to comprehend the bad stuff that happens in this world than children do. That said, when one is the victim of something as horrible as sexual abuse or assault as a child or as an adult our perspective and our ability to process is always limited by the trauma we've experienced. Just my thoughts.
_________________________
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.


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#398647 - 05/28/12 11:17 PM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: WriterKeith]
lapchinj Online   content
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Registered: 06/07/11
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Loc: New York
Hey Gary,

That's what I call going the extra mile for others. I would like to become more familiar with asa and how it's handled. I can see differences but any type of trauma is bad. I think everything has its time to come about. It took the women's movement to bring about a lot of stuff like csa. But I think I for one need a better understanding of asa to really see how I think things through.

Peace,Rainbows & Healing
Jeff
_________________________
Stick around, It will get better....

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#398650 - 05/28/12 11:47 PM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: WriterKeith]
WriterKeith Offline
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Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 945
Loc: southern California
DE, good points. A lot to think about.

From what I've learned from ASAs here on MS, it seems that ASAs have a harder time with the shame and guilt. Logic gives us a pretty clear reason why and how a child could not protect himself but we have a harder time extending understanding and compassion on an older male who was assaulted.
ASAs, does this sound accurate?
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#398656 - 05/29/12 01:20 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: WriterKeith]
CruxFidelis Offline


Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 486
Loc: NJ
very accurate
_________________________
“If a man wishes to be sure of the road he treads on, he must close his eyes and walk in the dark.”

- Saint John of the Cross

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#398670 - 05/29/12 09:53 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: WriterKeith]
dark empathy Offline
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Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 1963
Loc: durham, north england
I can interlectually understand that in terms of social atitude myself, given the way society treats men and women, but on this site and in context of my own feelings I find it very difficult to even imagine someone possessing! that viewpoint.

Saying someone who has experienced sa is not a victim is to me like saying a green tree is not green, just obviously and totally illogical. Of course, most people aren't exactly reasonable when it comes to their commonly held beliefs, which is as I understand it one of the major issues in Asa, the expectations of others within society about what a man should! be that the asa surviver does not come up to.

i don't think however it's too helpful to confuse the atitudes of society with organizations like ms, sinse one thing I've really noticed in ms is that for quite obvious reasons the guys here are much more open minded and inclined towards empathy than most of society, (as a visually impared person who's treated like a member of an alien race by almost every stranger I meet, I really appreciate this fact myself).

So on a practical level, instead of trying to split asa and csa survivers specifically even within ms, why not just as we currently have a s/xual identity forum, have a specific forum for personal or social identity, where anyone, ---- but especially asa survivers could discuss problems with identity, expectations, guilt and social acceptance, in a forum uniquely set aside for such conversations.

having a specific forum will encourage people to bring those sorts of matters into the open, and so have more conversations on those sorts of issues, and sinse this is obviously a more serious issue for many asa survivers than csa survivers, it will encourage more unique contributions from them, though of course any csa survivers who felt similar issues might chime in there too, just as any asa surviver who had a similar s/xual identity problem to a csa surviver would be welcome to use that forum.

Also, having a specific forum for discussing this issue will show any visitors to the site who are doing research or similar that it is! an issue, and thus point them in the direction of the fact that Asa abuse of mails actually exists.

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#398685 - 05/29/12 12:24 PM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: WriterKeith]
bodyguard8367 Offline
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Edited by ModTeam (02/26/14 07:58 PM)
Edit Reason: deleted on author's request

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#398744 - 05/29/12 10:13 PM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: Smalltown80sBoy]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
Originally Posted By: Smalltown80sBoy
My personal experience has been that my CSA was worse than ASA. I'm not saying CSA is always worse; I'm just saying it was worse for me. Maybe it's because the CSA went on for years and involved family and ASA was two separate one time only situations with strangers.

But one thing I want to add is while I talk a great deal about the CSA here I am just as traumatized by the physical and verbal abuse.

I try to be as understanding and supportive as I can because regardless of our trauma we are men in the same boat. I may not always know what to say to a survivor of ASA but I get a lot of the traumatic aftereffects: fear of intimacy, etc.

The bottom line for me is I've gotten to know many of you fairly well and I feel like I have a whole bunch of brothers I've never had before and it feels pretty good.

I know Male Survivor is not perfect but maybe we can work together to make it a better place for everyone. There will probably always be people who are unhappy about something, but how can we make it better? Perhaps try to find ways to attract more survivors of ASA to MS? Maybe survivors of ASA can have moderated chats? Or perhaps once or twice a month the HC could be ASA only?

Again I am a survivor of CSA and ASA. While for me the CSA was worse I treat everyone here the same regardless of what their trauma was/is. But if there are changes that need to be made like a moderated ASA chat that will help the ASA brothers, perhaps there should be a formal proposal for something to that effect.


Gentlemen, it is important to understand that we are not here as survivors to claim who has it worse than anyone else. We each have unique experiences in the survivor world. If abuse happened one time to someone, or multiple times, it is damaging. Whether it happens to someone as a child or as an adult, it is damaging. Let's try to keep in mind that regardless of the age of a survivor, support is needed in a time when pain is difficult to bear. Where we lack understanding, let's ask each other and learn. This topic will be closed at this time.

The Moderator Team

_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

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