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#398391 - 05/25/12 08:49 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: WriterKeith]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2024
Loc: durham, north england
Hi daryl.

I admit that I haven't had too much experience with other organizations that support male victims at all than ones connected with ms, so I just didn't know that there was, ---- as well as a bias in favour of female victims of abuse, even a bias in those few who recognized abuse of males in favour of victims of csa.

I simply didn't know that was the case, and I think it's pretty dire if so. I also completely understand why in that case you really want the experiences of asa survivers recognized specifically ---- indeed as a victim of unconventional gang rape at the hands of girls I can absolutely empathize with that one.

My only concern, and the reason I brought up the question of similarities, is one of privaliged experience. There's a really frightening tendency in society, with any group whether that's race, religion, skin colour, disability, particular country of origin and most especially gender (particularly I might say the female gender), to say "I'm an x! sinse your not, you can never understand what it is like to be an x! these experiences are ours! begger off!"

While I don't think it's likely on ms, I really would hate to see this sort of situation develope in a split betwene asa and csa survivers, which is why i raised the question of similarity and of abuse.

personally i'd prefer a situation where everybody's story of abuse was treated as their own, individual story and not catagorized in the least, irrispective of the gender or age of the victim or perpetrator. All of our experiences are different, and some may be more similar than others, which is indeed what we have our faculty of empathy and imagination for.

if however there is indeed an additional social bias against asa mail survivers in addition to that against male victims generally, I do see the need for extra recognition and attention, though as you said yourself society is biased so in favour of women as needing protection, expression and independence and men as dum, stupid apes who follow one path only and are worth less, that any attempt to change people's atitudes seems damnably difficult.

Luke.

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#398409 - 05/25/12 05:58 PM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: WriterKeith]
lapchinj Online   content
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1248
Loc: New York
After reading all these "right on" posts I think that it would be more practical to handle these subjects separately. I am a csa survivor and I really don't know much about ASA survivor issues that they face and I would imagine they are different in many ways. I agree 100% that either asa or csa, long term short term, once or a hundred times makes no difference on my nightmare being worse than your nightmare.

I have gone to many threads on asa and have left because I would not have any input that is useful. I was also a little nervous because of the issues between the groups (which I've never seen in action) and didn't want to get involved. But I guess that's the same way an asa guy feels when he comes to a csa thread.

I don't know why the csa side of MS grew so big and the asa side not (I'm assuming) but I would imagine that we have to try and get more asa guys to join us all here so that we have a large enough community for each that make it all of us can help one another. I know that they are out there and for some reason they are no finding their way here.

I must mention that I've had a big problem here in csa that I have talked over with my T. Even though my abuse from the time I was 10 until I went to the USAF was varied. I had abuse that I thought only physical but my T said it was also sexual. I did porn movies for a year where I was drugged and beaten and cattle prodded up my ass. then there was the loving one that I had from 12 to 18 with my coach who pimped me and was the best father I ever had. But you see as I told my T that I didn't hate my coach, I loved him. And I see here were most of the guys talk of hating their abusers who were mostly family members. I see that in the papers also survivors hate their abusers. I don't fit in I don't know what to say to someone that was abused by a mother or father. I never had that. I always thought that I was crazy. I'm gay with a wife (that's another story) not a husband and I was a fucken prostitute on top of all that. So while I can empathize with other csa survivors I just don't fit in that well in any category. And besides the guys I know I don't join in on those incest threads just as I don't join in on asa threads, I have no useful input.

I never looked at the split between csa and asa until I read about the fights. but not everyone fits into every type of abuse whether asa or csa, besides if they were a closer fit in reality then it would be called simply male abuse. I would hope that as the site grows the communities will also grow (very sad though). Where we can work together that's great where abuse concerns one or another community that community is better equipped to handle it.

I hope I didn't offend anyone and that my thinking holds some water. I'm not trying to be disrespectful in any way, shape or form. I just think that grapefruits are not oranges but they are very similar and both are fruits.

I wish everyone here a better experience in healing.

Peace,Rainbows & Healing
Jeff
_________________________
Stick around, It will get better....

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#398420 - 05/25/12 09:04 PM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: WriterKeith]
Smalltown80sBoy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 2217
removed per user


Edited by ModTeam (05/02/13 01:38 PM)

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#398432 - 05/26/12 12:26 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: Smalltown80sBoy]
CruxFidelis Offline


Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 486
Loc: NJ
Originally Posted By: Smalltown80sBoy
My personal experience has been that my CSA was worse than ASA. I'm not saying CSA is always worse; I'm just saying it was worse for me. Maybe it's because the CSA went on for years and involved family and ASA was two separate one time only situations with strangers.


I respect your experience and I am sure that having gone through CSA early on does affect the way a man experiences and deals with ASA later on. My therapist often tells me that the brain is an amazing survival machine that has to adjust itself to cope with trauma so the person can continue functioning. I grew up with an abuse free childhood and had never gone through any kind of sexual trauma before my assault 2 1/2 years ago, and I feel like my brain's completely F'ed up. I am not the same husband, father, brother, friend or son I was before I was raped because my brain and body were both drastically changed because of the rape.

It could be that having undergone trauma as a child might make the ASA seem "less bad" because the brain already has neural patterns in place. from what I know about CSA (my wife went through it on two occasions), dissociation is very common and she still goes into a dissociative state when she finds herself overwhelmed.

Just because a person has already gone through abuse before, does not make further abuse "not as bad," though, I think. It still shouldn't have happened to you at any age.

As an ASA man, I feel like most organizations that cater toward survivors minimize my experience. There is so little awareness of the fact that rape can happen to a grown man, and because we don't fit into the more common abuse "cliches" our experiences are pushed into a background. Many books geared toward male survivors are entirely geared toward CSA survivors with a few paragraphs about male ASA that basically say that it happens, it's underreported, and little is said about it. We need MORE than a chapter, people! I'd like to be treated like my story and experience matter, and not just an afterthought.

Rape shouldn't happen to ANYONE. PERIOD. Regardless of age, gender, sexual preference, disability, race, etc.

It doesn't matter if it's 1 in 6 (for male CSA) or 1 in 33 (for male ASA). Just because it's less common and fewer men report doesn't give any organization or therapist an excuse to minimize or marginalize. Even if the statistics were 1 in 6 billion, it still would be wrong, and it still should NEVER happen. to ANYONE.

Every time I come on this board and read about men being sexually abused in childhood, it fills my heart with a lot of pain. I never went through CSA, and I can't imagine going through the after effects. Whenever I hear about CSA happening, it makes me want to go to wherever my son is and hug him, just to know that he's safe. I definitely attribute being a member here as one of my reasons why I actively would choose to homeschool and why I worry whenever he is being cared for by anyone that is not myself, his mom or a family member that I trust. I don't want him in daycare or preschool. CSA is something I find incredibly gut wrenching, tragic and heart breaking, but is not something I actually have experienced personally, and so there are a lot of aspects of the common male CSA experience that I can have compassion for, but not share on a personal level. I think as survivors there are a lot of things we go through in common, but I think it would be good if more were done to address issues unique to male ASA the way there are books written and conferences about male CSA.

I don't think that comparing the experiences is particularly helpful because it's like comparing apples to goats. I already feel like most people on this site would say that what I went through wasn't as bad, because I had the chance to have a childhood, and I had the mature adult perspective that a child lacks. Maybe that's true, but rape will strip even a grown man of any dignity he ever thought he had, and it has the power to completely unravel someone all the same. Neither experience is a walk in the park and each has its unique challenges, and it sucks to be minimized and disbelieved regardless of when the abuse happened. So I think the best thing we can do as CSA and ASA survivors is to understand that everyone here is deserving of support and validation, and to offer that regardless of whether their experiences look like your own.
_________________________
“If a man wishes to be sure of the road he treads on, he must close his eyes and walk in the dark.”

- Saint John of the Cross

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#398433 - 05/26/12 12:27 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: Anomalous]
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
Sexual violence is sexual violence. Sexual violence directed at children is essentially the same as sexual violence directed at an adult since at its core is an abuse of power, which adults of either gender can be subject to and victimized by just as a child can, albeit in different circumstances. How one deals with the aftermath of it is quite different since adults by nature have coping skills that children do not but the meaning behind the victimization is the same in my opinion.
_________________________
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.


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#398434 - 05/26/12 12:57 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: jls]
CruxFidelis Offline


Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 486
Loc: NJ
Originally Posted By: jls
adults by nature have coping skills that children do not

When it comes to sexual assault, the only way I knew to cope was to shut down. I basically went a long time where I barely talked to anyone and sunk into a dissociated depression that lasted formonths. I think the man I was before the assault would wanted to do anything he could to get out of it or cope with it. I think if there was a way to end the abuse, i would have utilized it. This is why I oppose the PTSD diagnosis, because it some how implies that there was a better way I could have coped somehow. But I didn't , so I'm slapped with a big fat DISORDER
_________________________
“If a man wishes to be sure of the road he treads on, he must close his eyes and walk in the dark.”

- Saint John of the Cross

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#398436 - 05/26/12 01:18 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: CruxFidelis]
Smalltown80sBoy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 2217
removed per user


Edited by ModTeam (05/02/13 01:37 PM)

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#398437 - 05/26/12 01:42 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: Smalltown80sBoy]
CruxFidelis Offline


Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 486
Loc: NJ
I'm sorry if my post made you think that everything I was ranting about was a response to what you said. I am not going to lie, I think maybe your statement about how your ASA was not as bad as the CSA maybe struck a nerve within me and triggered my "fight back" instincts, but perhaps that wasn't a rational reaction. I do have a lot of discontent toward the current "system" by which our society handles sexual assaults and the way the mental health system has treated male ASA survivors. I have had 2 hospitalizations where I have asked to talk to a T during my time there, and they have sent me T's that have minimized the assault or dismissed me entirely. I have seen how entire organizations devoted to sexual assault recovery ignore male victims, and I guess I have a huge chip on my shoulder. I should not have taken what you said personally and I'm sorry for that.

I do like the idea of doing an ASA chat or HC here, and would participate if such a thing was offered.

I agree that a "my pain is worse than yours" contest isn't helpful to anyone. However, I think that since a lot of the recovery community either ignores or minimizes the male ASA experience, I know for me, I feel on the defensive a lot of the time and I always feel like I have to justify why my assault was "that bad" and why more support for men like me should become available.
_________________________
“If a man wishes to be sure of the road he treads on, he must close his eyes and walk in the dark.”

- Saint John of the Cross

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#398439 - 05/26/12 02:27 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: CruxFidelis]
Smalltown80sBoy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 2217
removed per user


Edited by ModTeam (05/02/13 01:37 PM)

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#398441 - 05/26/12 02:38 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: WriterKeith]
Smalltown80sBoy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 2217
removed per user


Edited by ModTeam (05/02/13 01:36 PM)

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