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#393367 - 04/13/12 10:29 PM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: Anomalous]
prisonerID Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
Anomalous,

I cannot think of how this could have been worded better, been more informative or in fact be more eloquent. I am very appreciative for every word you wrote here.


Daryl
_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

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#393378 - 04/14/12 01:15 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: Anomalous]
Smalltown80sBoy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 2217
removed per user


Edited by ModTeam (05/02/13 01:39 PM)

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#393396 - 04/14/12 02:32 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: WriterKeith]
peroperic2009 Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/11
Posts: 3600
Loc: South-East Europe
This is great thread!
Giving labels, being unsupportive, exclusive, hurtfully selfish and authoritative - those are just some of unpleasant traits that we all felt hard on our skin by societies or maybe by some family members and even friends.
We should work hard on nurturing culture of dialogue here.
We have to learn how to share warmth and empathy to all people on equal terms, otherwise we are same just like some bad guys......
No matter if we are talking about someone who is CSA, ASA or whatever, we are all the same: fragile human beings who need some love and understanding.
Let us be more supportive to each other, lets heal all trough giving some support and exchange of experiences.
That mustn't be hard; we went trough much more difficult situations already smile !
_________________________
My story

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#393406 - 04/14/12 05:18 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: WriterKeith]
WriterKeith Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 935
Loc: southern California
Guys, it seems apparent that we need to be talking about this issue. If there is a division in the community of men who have survived sexual assaults then we are cutting ourselves off from the very place to find healing, strength and courage.

ASAs and CSAs please keep talking here. Educating ourselves on these issues is our most powerful muscle builder for the cause of healing and prevention.
_________________________
"A burned bridge can be a gift; it prevents us from returning to a place we should have never been."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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#393879 - 04/18/12 04:05 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: peroperic2009]
WriterKeith Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 935
Loc: southern California
Originally Posted By: peroperic2009
This is great thread!
Giving labels, being unsupportive, exclusive, hurtfully selfish and authoritative - those are just some of unpleasant traits that we all felt hard on our skin by societies or maybe by some family members and even friends.
We should work hard on nurturing culture of dialogue here.
We have to learn how to share warmth and empathy to all people on equal terms, otherwise we are same just like some bad guys......
No matter if we are talking about someone who is CSA, ASA or whatever, we are all the same: fragile human beings who need some love and understanding.
Let us be more supportive to each other, lets heal all trough giving some support and exchange of experiences.
That mustn't be hard; we went trough much more difficult situations already smile !


That's an important point, and I also appreciate what Gary and Anomolous said on the matter.

I was caught by surprise when someone in MS chat once said, "I feel so bad, like I don't belong here, because my abuse was just once and everyone else here had ongoing abuse." We were all quick to explain that it takes just one single event of sexual violation to completely rewire someone's subconscious mind. Any further or repeated assaults seem to reinforce what has already been set in motion. There is no "worse than, better than." It's a traumatic experience, period.


_________________________
"A burned bridge can be a gift; it prevents us from returning to a place we should have never been."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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#393983 - 04/19/12 12:23 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: WriterKeith]
CruxFidelis Offline


Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 486
Loc: NJ
Originally Posted By: WriterKeith
We were all quick to explain that it takes just one single event of sexual violation to completely rewire someone's subconscious mind. Any further or repeated assaults seem to reinforce what has already been set in motion. There is no "worse than, better than." It's a traumatic experience, period.



This is very validating to me. I often struggle with the question of how the heck did I get to be so messed up because of ~8 days (I think)? ASA can be a fleeting but extremely intense, violent and traumatic, and it can be an ongoing abuse situation that can last for years. Either way it creates damage and there is no way to say what is "worse." Whether it was an ongoing abuse situation in adulthood, or a single instance of assault, it is horrible trauma and very different. There is a very different bereavement going on. The CSA survivor mourns his lost childhood innocence. For me, I had a clear picture of who I was and what I wanted out of life. I had already "settled down" with my wife, my life wasn't great (obviously Iwas in the hospital) but I knew what I was made of and felt confident about that, the way any man should. I don't know who I am right now, but I am certainly not that man, I might look like him and have the same birth certificate and social security card, but that's about it.

One could say that at least I had a childhood, at least I had the opportunity to be a boy, and to develop in a healthy way. That may be the case, but whatever I had was completely taken away from me, and called into question. We both mourn, we both hurt, and i think a lot of us struggle as men to reconcile these experiences with the desire to be thought of as strong & masculine. In that way we are the same.
_________________________
“If a man wishes to be sure of the road he treads on, he must close his eyes and walk in the dark.”

- Saint John of the Cross

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#394083 - 04/19/12 03:51 PM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: WriterKeith]
WriterKeith Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 935
Loc: southern California
CruxFidelis,
I'm glad you put these thoughts out there to help others understand ASA.

This has been on my mind for a while, the ASA and CSA finding their way together matter. As far as sharing and supporting each other on the web site, I think the bottom line is, when a man is at the stage of first disclosing and going through the early stages of talking about it, he greatly benefits from the compassion and testimonials of others whose experience were similar to his.

As a survivor moves into the stage of restructuring his thoughts, picking up the pieces, and focusing on healing and managing symptoms, the greater the diversity of input the better. The focus is no longer in the rear view mirror, but on current steps and the road ahead. It gives him a larger tool box from which to choose what works for him.

Thoughts?
_________________________
"A burned bridge can be a gift; it prevents us from returning to a place we should have never been."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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#398375 - 05/25/12 02:46 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: WriterKeith]
WriterKeith Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 935
Loc: southern California
ASAs, it's your turn at the mic. We're listening.
_________________________
"A burned bridge can be a gift; it prevents us from returning to a place we should have never been."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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#398383 - 05/25/12 05:38 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: WriterKeith]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 1934
Loc: durham, north england
One question I would ask, is what exactly is the difference betwene csa and asa anyway?

My own experiences happened at secondary school betwene 12 and 15. Legally I was not an adult so this was csa, however the abuse was in context of pretty serious bullying. There is no deffinition of rape that covers it, indeed the idea of girls gan raping a boy is pretty much outside all legal deffinitions, but when my mum suddenly and abruptly used the word some time later it fit pretty well.

However this wasn't an adult abusing a child, but a group of same age kids abusing one other in school simply for something to do, with a lot of violence, insults and humiliation thrown in for good measure.

Thus, while I can employ empathy for those who experienced abuse by a family member, or even by an adult in position of power, I have no experience that is similar at all or has any baring on it.

With me there was no emotional attachment, no head games, just an attempt at "jokes" that went beyond all boundaries, indeed as Cs lewis says, any act of evil however monstrous can be made acceptable if it can be disguised as a joke.

i doubt the people involved even remember what they did, or considdered at the time that it was in any sense abusive, ---- it was just " a joke" despite the fact that it has had a major effect on my life, self esteme and pretty much destroyed any chance of me having a relationship with anyone.

I'm pretty sure there are adult male survivers who have had similar experiences to this, ie, abuse in the context of bullying and jokes by a gang of people against one victim in a very public arena.

Neither was I utterly unaware of what was happening. when i was ten, My parents had completely explained what s/x was, what my body did, even what mb was and explained to me it was all fine, ---- indeed I think the fact that I simply treated s/x as a comparatively uninteresting but necessary part of growing up rather than the source of what seemed to me at the time excessively stupid jokes was another force behind the abuse, sinse again it alionated me from those around me.

while I looked a lot younger than my age, I was probably a great deal older and more mature mentally and emotionally, indeed when I was thirteen I was invited to a seminar on the holocaust organized by the councel for christians and Jews for ages 18-25, ---- "because I came across more like an 18 year old" probably a consequence of me losing my sight at age 7, then leaving home a year later and having to cope with what was tantamount to emotional abuse at boarding school for two years.

So, was I a child? were those involved children?

it seems to me that assuming that there is a magic transformation that happens when a person get to age 18 is rather ridiculous, indeed in many parts of the world "child" is simply a biological state at best, and once someone is old enough to be physically developed, ---- anywhere from 12 to 16, they're pretty much considdered an adult.

I've also met more than my share of stupid, naive and childish people right from 18 to goodness knows what.

So myself I'd much rather remove the csa asa distinction altogether and just talk of abuse generally. some stories will be similar, some not, some adults will have similarities to csa survivers and visa versa, but the key fact is the unwanted s/xual contact, the power of one person or group of people over another, and the lasting damage this does.

About society and gender, the amount of sexism towards men i find utterly unbelieveable, especially the fact that people don't realize! it is sexism.

even my mum, who in most senses I'd considder very open minded occasionally comes out with sentences like "your place is really clean for a single man" which is utterly ridiculous!

The double standard towards men and women is insane. if girls want to be traditionally female, ---- that's fine, sinse their women. If they want to do something else, that's fine too, sinse their liberated women!

This is true just about anywhere from behaviour to appearence, ---- when can a man care about his appearence at all and not be thought feminine?

And I won't even start on the question of relationships and dating behaviour sinse that one makes me feel absolutely insensed!

And the abuse statistics are just wrong, indeed I never even considdered what happened to me to be abuse because of this, and on several occasions the girls involved got me! into trouble for doing things to them!

Why is it perfectly okay for several girls to wrip a boy's trousers off in public but not for boys to do the same thing to a girl?

Sorry, getting carried away here.

Either way, society is so unbelieveably wrong on this point it makes me sick. I'd love to actually write a paper on it, but I'm afraid how angry doing the research for it would make m.

At least though at ms, even when people haven't actually had the same experiences, they can generate a sufficient amount of empathy about others to cover the gap, which is why this is such a great community, whether or not people's experiences are similar.

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#398388 - 05/25/12 08:08 AM Re: Adult Survivors in MS chat with CSAs [Re: WriterKeith]
prisonerID Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
dark empathy,

I can easily agree with almost everything you had to say here except for one thing. There are base similarities between those males abused as children and assaulted as adults. But there are also differing layers involved with each population. To remove the distinctions is not separating the two into different camps or placing them on opposing sides. It is merely the recognition of the two areas of "abuse".

Your comments on society do ring very true and I apply that to the therapeutic community as well. The lack of interest there for men assaulted as adults is very evident in the lack of research or resources for the survivors. I can attest to beating the pavement in person for years as well as contacting many internet based programs that serve male abuse survivors. I was greeted kindly by the internet organizations but told that they did not have anything for someone like me but only served CSA survivors. This ranged from 1in6 to others in this land all the way to Canada.

My point of argument against your suggestion that we simply talk of it all in the abuse arena without distinction is two fold. One being that almost all men here are CSA and the discussions do lend to that spectrum for the most part as expected. The second being that if that would cover all for men like me then why have a male oriented sexual abuse survivor site? MS was created due to the recognition that men have differing issues than women. Just as adult women who have been raped and those abused as children share a common base and yet have differing issues as well.

For me it is more about an organization, any organization, taking on the issues specific to male adult sexual assault and carrying the banner in the same way it would for male CSA. We have many issues out there: military, prisons and of course those like me who were attacked in civilian life. I am not seeking categorization so much as simple recognition. Like I have written on this site several times - "we all like to see our names".

I think your comment was a sincere and caring one and I appreciate the intent of it. All men should be included here as survivors of sexual "abuse". But I never felt like I was drawing a line of separation in the sand when I asked for distinctions and recognition concerning myself being an adult male who was raped.

My angst is not with any man here but with the therapeutic community that still does not see the need to address men like me. And it is with the organizations who really do not have enough empathy except for ones who have experiences like themselves. I do not say that with anger or in harshness. But in recovery we not only need to face the truth within ourselves but also the truths of those around them.

I have come to a point in my life where I can only say, for my own sanity and the sake of my own recovery, that like Whitney Houston sang - "It's Not Right But It's Okay".

Thank you for sharing your heart here. I found a lot of good thoughts expressed here.


Daryl
_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

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