Hi Mulligan!

I agree! It's clear that certain actions/activities/behaviors aren't perceived as wrong by many married male survivors, while the married supporters see it much, much differently. Personally, I would love to know if the difference in perceptions is either/or:

* The way most males are genetically programmed
* The way most males are socially programmed
* A result of the distorted emotional/sexual development of a male survivor of CSA
* A result of the damage done to a marriage and the supporter
* Other...???

I also wonder if there might not be a whole bunch of males here who won't side with a female's view regarding the abovementioned behaviors out of "loyalty" to the gender/brotherhood?

Regardless, it's critical that husband and wife are very clear on how each other perceives these things. It's unfair for a man to be slapped with divorce papers for participating in behavior that he thought was inconsequential. Likewise, it's unfair for a woman to suffer the very real damage to self and marriage when her husband participates in behaviors that are a violation of her values system.

I "think" the questions presented in the original post would help a spouse ascertain not only if HE thinks his actions are unfaithful to his marital vows, but also how his partner might view his actions/behavior?

Yes? No?

Thanks Mulligan and ALL survivors for your insight!
herowannabe

I've taken the liberty of adding numbers to the above list for easier reference in the discussion.
1. - i don't know and don't have an opinion. probly not as important as others
2. lots of complex issues there - and it will vary even by national, regional, ethnic and even family standards of behavior, plus lots of others.
3. THIS IS THE BIGGEST FACTOR!!! Everything else IMHO - pales in comparison.
4. I don't know - probably to varying degrees - but as a secondary effect of # 3.
5. Whatever...?
6. Maybe not as much as you might think. There are many of us who never felt like we fit in with other normal males - never got the confirmation of membership - were left feeling like outsiders, less than complete males, deficient in some way because of the abuse. For "us" - we often are more empathetic towards a female's perspective than toward the typical male point of view because "we" too have been abused by "strong" macho alpha males. Speaking for myself - i feel much more solidarity with other SURVIVORS than i do with the majority of other men. I would be more likely to support and defend another survivor who i felt was being misunderstood and wrongly characterized by his partner because i empathize with his victim/survivor identity. but generally, i think many survivors are quite understanding of others' issues - whether male or female - though not necessarily of their/our own - lots of trigger-generated blind spots when it comes to ourselves.

Lee

Some men are unfaithful without having any history that would be the "cause" or in any way related to that behaviour. They are not abuse survivors. They just do what they wanna do.

I think that some survivors may "act out" in the areas of porn and masterbation without being "unfaithful" in their view of things. It may even prevent infidelity in the sense that it substitutes an imaginary or mental or exclusively visual stimulation for an actual other person with a physical body. Sometimes it may be a fantasy partner - and sometimes a self-focused narcissistic introversion - with no desire for anything else. So in a weird way, it is an attempt to remain "faithful" by NOT going elsewhere.

People get married or form a couple for various reasons. They each bring their bagage with them and try to compromise, set their expectations. A lot of women don't know that men masturbate even when they have sex regularly. Some masturbate with porn, some without, some because they are tired cant sleep, nervous. Its what we do. It has little to do with infidelity. Nothing wrong with it as far as im concerned. Regardless of abuse both men and women cheat on their spouse. Our species is not monogamous. Our monogamy was a social creation, with some religious overtones. There are very few species that are monogamous and among higher primates like us (apes) only one species is monogamous, Gibbons. Monogamy is but one of the reproductive strategies that exist. Most monogamous species show little or no sexual dimorphism. Male and female are about the same size. They only interact socially with their mate and their infant. Both male and female raise the young together and should one of them die the infant usually also dies.
We are gregarious apes which live in groups with some loose ties to our mates. Usually long enough for the infant to survive the dangerous years. 7 or 8. After that they are likely to survive to adulthood. Women can reproduce all year long and may choose a variety of males to impregnate her. Some studies have shown that it stimulates males to see their mates having sex with another man. This also increases the production of some specialized sperm cell which will destroy rival sperm from another male. The shape of the head of the penis is also not accidental in humans. That mushroom shape allows for a male to create a suction and remove the sperm of another male from the vagina, and inseminate his own, thus insuring his paternity.
We choose to be in a relationship today. We also choose to cheat on our mates for various reasons, but ultimately it is a choice, we are each responsible for our actions. For some it may be a deal breaker, for some a turn on and others yet somewhere in between. The physical act of cheating is only the manifestation of problems in the couple that can go back years.
Acting out is just another manifestation of problems that may or may not relate to the abuse. In some cases it does.
Its a very complex issue. I think that if a spouse is cheating or acting out, the focus should be on the state of the marriage, the intimacy, the communication. The sex itself is not the important part here.

Well said Anthony....there really aren't any answers.

Cool Anthony

One thing though...

"I think that if a spouse is cheating or acting out, the focus should be on the state of the marriage, the intimacy, the communication."

If a spouse is "acting out", it will take more than a focus on the marriage. I think that is why most of us spouses are here. If it were simply an issue of the marriage, we wouldn't be on MS.

If a spouse is simply being unfaithful to get needs met and NOT recreating abuse, then the marriage is the focus, communication is the focus.

This distinction is something we have all been going back and forth on. I don't think there is a whole heck of a lot a spouse can do to improve their communication that would result in diminished desire to act out. As we've been told, that is the survivor's journey to recovery.

esposa I understand what you are saying.
I can only report my vision and my experiences.
I think that the sense of betrayal wether as a result of acting out or infidelity runs deep. Often spouses don't find out about abuse until after the partner has acted out. So it makes the marriage / partnership like a lie. You look at your partner and you see a stranger. You find yoursel on shaky ground.
acting out is about control. Or the illusion there of. For some survivors who keep it inside, it is a pressure valve. all kinds of acting out based on all kinds of abuses In the end a solitary act in another reality that has nothing to do with the day to day life.
All is forgotten and nothing matters. Your boundaries vanish, your sense of self becomes blurry. You just go back to what you knew, what you were taught.

I still think its a choice of sort. But it's been such a lonely path that it's hard to share the secret,even with your loved ones.
I don't know what the answers you are looking for are, but I think there's a bigger picture here. One that we need to step back from in order to see it all.

All is forgotten and nothing matters. Your boundaries vanish, your sense of self becomes blurry. You just go back to what you knew, what you were taught.


Anthony, You just put into words what I would loved to have heard when my life began to turn upside down.
Thank you for that, it really hit home.

*****Maybe triggers****

Oh, God. It’s almost 1:30 and I am about to process. Hero, I hope you don’t mind a little processing on your thread.

For me, acting out was a pressure valve. The pressure built because of a lot of things in the family and because I let my wife vent a lot. I let her because I didn’t know how to say no. The problem with that was I took it all way too personally and the only way I knew was to jack off. I did it all my life and when the internet came along…well, I was done for. So, I escalated my acting out by using the porn, text and webcams the internet offered. As my anger, frustration, sense of inferiority and general worthlessness consumed me, I found an outlet online. It was a high tech way of going back to what I knew; what I was taught. I did what I was taught to deal with my feelings. I swear that I never once intended to cause my wife any pain. In fact, I thought that by letting her vent and letting the pressure build, then letting the steam off in my secret world, I was actually protecting her. I was giving her an outlet for her frustrations, and addressing my pain later.

Sometimes, I just wanted to scream because of the pressure inside of me because I didn’t know that I could disagree with my wife and that she would still love me afterwards. I had absolutely no concept that someone could love me even if I didn’t agree 100% with them. So I listened and then failed her and my family in the process.

When I was caught in my acting out, my wife could not, for the life of her, understand how I could not equate cybersex and webcaming with infidelity. She just couldn’t. It made perfect sense to me. What I did had nothing to do, in my mind, with a lack of love or disrespect to her. That, however, is not how she perceived it and, in the end run, life is about perceptions and I really let her down.

There is no doubt in my mind that marriage involves compromise and negotiation. My wife told me a few weeks ago that she has accepted my pornography addiction and doesn’t really expect me to stop. When I first heard that, it was like really cool. That meant I could do it with impunity. As long as I didn’t get into cybersex, she was cool with me watching porn and masturbating.

That’s what I heard at first, but that’s not what she meant. She’s no more cool with me watching and masturbating to gay pornography than she is with my underage daughter getting drunk. My wife was compromising. She was compromising on something that really hurt her. I don’t know all her reasons. Perhaps she did it to keep the peace in the family with all the other serious concerns we are facing regarding my youngest or maybe she was trying to convince herself it was ok for her to stay with me, even if I did act out.

In her act of compromise, she was doing what I did to get myself to this place. I kept the peace. I didn’t buck my family or put any more pressure on my family than it already had. I thought that if I acted as if I had no problems, mom and dad would have an easier time with my brother. When he was gone, I wanted to be the good kid and not get in trouble. I didn’t want to be a burden. In the process of that compromise, I lost my soul and now I have to figure out how to get it back. Well, I have to figure out how to allow God to help me get it back.

Why should I do that to another person? Infidelity is not, to me, about any religious or moral norms; it’s about whether I really mean it when I tell my wife I love her.

I thought my perpetrator loved me. That’s why he was able to destroy me. I gave him what he wanted because I thought he loved me. Then, I realized he was just using me. The good news at that point was it was time to go to another Air Force base and he wouldn’t be there.

If I knowingly do something to hurt my wife, how am I any better than the guy who I thought loved me? Perhaps there would be some difference in my thinking if I didn’t think using porn was wrong, but I do think it. In the end run, I am pretty biblical in my thinking, even if I am a very poor excuse for an obedient Christian.

I guess if I really thought that watching pornographic images was ok, I might negotiate with her more, but sometimes loving someone requires that your do what does not hurt them. Actually, it always requires that to the extent possible. What I am really thinking is that sometimes compromise on significant issues, like what constitutes infidelity, is a mistake. It’s wrong for me to ask her to accept something that she feels is a betrayal. If I love her, I have to remove the obstacle to her feeling and seeing that love.

Ok, well, that’s my two cents worth. I am going to sleep. I don’t really know if any of this even makes sense. You guys tell me later.

"If I love her, I have to remove the obstacle to her feeling and seeing that love."

This statement is so true to myself and I am sure many supporters on MS. I feel that it covers both cheating and porn as well as other ways of acting out.

As my husband started healing his vices changed. Whether it was physically cheating, emotionaly cheating or just searching for gorgeouse girls on the internet, it destroyed my self estime, self worth and filled me with shame. During those times I did not discuss my feelings with anyone because I did not have the confidance to admit to those closest to me that my husband would rather masturbate than make love to me. With all the issues involved in survivor marriages, we are all looking for validation and acceptance, for us it only came through comunication, compromise and a lot of patience.

You know in your heart whether its an uncontrollable acting out or if its just infidelity. I have said previously that just because our partners have been abused it does not give them the right to disrespect us or abuse us in any manner.

We are here to love and support them.
One day at a time.
Pie