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#39041 - 06/10/03 12:08 AM No-one can relate...even here??!
StrangerInAStrangeLand Offline
Member

Registered: 04/23/03
Posts: 33
Loc: Puyallup, WA
"Child Abuse." "Sexual Abuse." "Rape." "Incest." These are the most common words and phrases used today to describe the experience that brought us all to this place. But whenever I listen to the definitions of these words, read the books on how to deal with the effects, or listen to other people tell their story, they always seem to be talking about someone else - it just doesn't apply to me. I haven't keeping "the secret" waiting for a lifetime to finally spill my guts online - my abuse was one year ago. "You/I were robbed of your childhood. Your inner child needs to heal." What? Not me. I'm almost 17. My "abuse" was a year ago. "The more powerful adult took advantage of your innocense. You couldn't have done anything." I could have ran at any time and probably would have gotten away, too. He never threatened me, at least not directly. I was just scared. So I complied. "He told you he loved you/made you feel good. Broke your trust,etc." Not me again. My perp was a stranger who asked me if I wanted to get high - not a father, mother, uncle, priest - just some creep in a car. I feel I have to completely forge my own path to "recovery" or "healing" or whatever because my situation is so unique. It's quite frustrating. gotta go im about to be kicked off later


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#39042 - 06/10/03 12:50 AM Re: No-one can relate...even here??!
dwf Offline
Moderator/BoD Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 1223
Loc: Austin, Texas USA
You are in the right place, Stranger.

I have had the same impression as you....that my situation was different, because I thought I loved the guy who abused me, because I didn't report it, because I enjoyed it etc. etc.

What happened when I came here to this web site was that other men honestly said how they FELT
about what happened in their lives.

And guess what? No matter where, when, who, how, at what age or what the abuser did, all the men here were left with many of the same emotions as I had.

When I was able to focus on the emotions instead of on the physical details, I could begin to identify myself as one of the group---as a survivor. It took me a long time to get to that place.

I'm sorry about what brought you here. No one should be exploited sexually---not people who get high, not by strangers--no one.

But you are here now and I want you to know that you don't have to relate to the circumstances of other peoples lives.

I relate to the way you're feeling now. I was about your age when the sexual abuse occurred in my life.

I wish I had the courage that you show now in coming here. Congratulations on surviving long enough to make it here.

Believe me, you are welcome here. This group will support and accept you--even if you don't feel like you can relate. Be good to yourself. you deserve it after what has happened to you.

Hope you'll keep coming here and soak up some the "wolf pack" care that helps ease the ache.

Glad you posted tonight.

Regards,

_________________________
"Poke salad Annie, 'gators got you granny
Everybody said it was a shame
'Cause her mama was aworkin' on the chain-gang"

-Tony Joe White

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#39043 - 06/10/03 01:29 AM Re: No-one can relate...even here??!
Nathan LaChine Offline
Webmaster
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 5378
Loc: Washington State
Hello Chris,

We all feel that way at times but you are in a place of healing. Yes you might be one of the younger members on the board but you are not alone. I am only 19 Chris. Their are a couple of other members here that are as old as I am or just a year or two older. We are the young ones of this group.

What are you looking for a quick fix? You do not have to do your healing on your own. If you feel you are alone come into the chatroom. If you would like a guide please seek the help of a T.

Chris I am more then willing to help you. If you would like please come into the chatroom. Do know that we can only give you are advice nothing more my brother. We can only be your friends we cannot heal you.

Chris please please if you feel alone send me a pm and I am more then willing to talk. If you want swing into the chatroom. You are a young and it is hard when the other guys talk about their abuse in the past or 10 or 20 years ago. Yours was only last year and that is hard cause it is still in the very near past for you.

My abuse only stopped a couple of years ago. It is very hard since most the guys here talk about their abuse from so long ago. For us the abuse just happen and that can make it hard to deal with at times. I am more then willing to do what I can but your path to healing must be yours. We can only give you advice on what has worked for us. If you need a guide to your healing please think about seeing a T my brother.


lots of love, Nathan


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#39044 - 06/10/03 03:22 AM Re: No-one can relate...even here??!
Muldoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 1428
Loc: St Paul MN
Stranger
Quote:
I was just scared. So I complied
I can tell you for sure that most of us felt that I know that I did. Scared is a feeling that's hard to deal with when confronted with EVIL. That is the one thing that all us had to face,EVIL, EVIL Power, and EVIL control over us.
I am sorry that you have to deal with all is bagage but it does my heart good to see that you have found us and that you are begining the Healing process at a young age.
Friend you are at an excellent time to begin your Healing so soon after the abuse. Many of us here talk about the years we hide in the Silence. 10,20, or in my case 40 years of SILENCE.
Many of us old frats that come here are loking for help in our healing but allso want to change the way the world deals with Sexual Abuse. The fact that you have ended the SILENCE and are begining your healing so soon is nolthing but an positive event.

It doesn't matter HOW we got here, BUT what is important is that we take the healing power within this pack and use it to BETTER OUR LIFES.

Muldoon

_________________________
Teach the Children to Never Hide in the Silence

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#39045 - 06/10/03 09:06 AM Re: No-one can relate...even here??!
Freedom Offline
Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 164
Loc: US
Hi,

Let's face it. Every single person here is unique. Ultimately, everyone of us has to face his/her demons. Reading, learning, sharing are just the tools to do it.

You can create a meaning for yourself using your own words, the words of others, or a combination.

Ultimately, the basics are that something happened. That event did something to our lives. If we are miserable with the results, we need to do something about it. SO IT DOES NOT HAPPEN AGAIN.

Yes, the elements os your case are unique but I can see certain commonalities. I believe understanding what happened and why are the key to changing future outcomes. But positive changes can happen along the way to understanding.

Fear is a powerful adversary and hindsight is 20/20. Don't beat yourself too much.

Take care of yourself.
Freedom.

_________________________
Life is moving on. AM I?

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#39046 - 06/10/03 09:18 AM Re: No-one can relate...even here??!
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Sisal
Because it happened so recently in the past and the fact that you are dealing with it so quickly really gives me a lot of faith in the younger generation

My SA occured at Military College. I was raped over a 9 month period by three upper classmen. At first I resisted then became compliant and probably started to enjoy it. It is here that our paths diverged.

I have been a hustler and a heroin addict 18-21, physically re-enacted my abuse until I was 56 years of age and finally believed that if I did not do something the memories of what happened and what I did to myself would kill me. I am 62 now been married for 36 years almost and have a daughter 22.

I ams so glad than you found us and are on the path to inner peace while you still have the rest of your life ahead of you.

Thanks for sharing Brother Wolf


AAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOEEEEEEEE

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#39047 - 06/10/03 09:18 AM Re: No-one can relate...even here??!
MDD Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/05/03
Posts: 12
Loc: somewheres on this thing calle...
Hiya stranger!

youre not the only young guy round here, I am 20, and what you say I certainly relate to dude. I havent waited for countless years, though sometimes I wished I had never spoken up. I can understand why people would keep quiet about it, and their stories are also a warning! They know whats its like no to be understood, and that for a time mostly longer than you, nathan and me are around! Guess we younger guys have different issues too, stuff thats ancient history for these guys. But they have been there!
I have met some in the chatroom and all are very nice guys, willing to help with advice. Just glad to have you around, feel free to send me a pm, or pm me in the chatroom. I am just Tom there, take care dude. The rest of the world may not understand, but we all do.

go easy on yourself, dont do it all in one day!

Tom

_________________________
Something old, something new, something borrowed, something blue

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#39048 - 06/10/03 09:47 AM Re: No-one can relate...even here??!
outis Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/27/03
Posts: 2260
Loc: Maryland USA
Chris,

Look at all the replies you got from people of all different ages. Everyone says the same thing: You are welcome here, the details don't matter, the abuse was real.

I was 16 when I "qualified" to come here. I waited for 26 years to say anything. I'm pretty sure I told you when you first came around here how impressed I am at your guts to deal with this while the wound is fresh.

I posted about the roots of the word "recovery" last month or so. It means "taking back" or "seizing back," not "covering up again" or anything like that. If you are going to seize back the good things in your life, it will be an individual effort. We all support you, and we hope you have found more support near home, too. Just like you, every one of us will "seize back" our lives in our unique way, using our own strengths to fight through our own challenges and defeat our own demons.

It's strange, but we're united in all these feelings, including the feeling of being an outsider, different. But don't sweat the details of the abuse.

Chris, you are special and different in a very good way. Like the other younger guys here, you have the courage to stand against the effects of the abuse before they rob you of so many years. Many of us took a long time to find that kind of courage. Many others like us are out there suffering now.

Thanks,

Joe

_________________________
"Telemachos, your guest is no discredit to you. I wasted no time in stringing the bow, and I did not miss the mark. My strength is yet unbroken…"—The Odyssey, translated by W.H.D. Rouse

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#39049 - 06/10/03 11:45 AM Re: No-one can relate...even here??!
andrew-almost52 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 243
Loc: canada
Hello friend,
A number of months ago, one of our moderators, Mike Church, came up with what I believe is the definitive litmus test as to whether abuse has taken place. He said that in abusive encounters, there is always a winner and a loser. On this basis you qualify young man. You may be a young adult but your perpetrator had an agenda, had you at a disadvantage in terms of age and experience, and you came out of it feeling badly. Furthermore, sixteen years old is a child. You may be getting bigger and stronger, but you are not expected to be able to fend for yourself just yet. I am glad you found this web site. You will find some good people here that can help you sort things through. I would make a further suggestion that you seek professional counselling. And remember, you are young, you are healthy and have a zillion wonderful things to look forward to. Embrace this world and don't allow this one unpleasant incident to become more important than it deserves to be. Peace, Andrew


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#39051 - 06/10/03 12:18 PM Re: No-one can relate...even here??!
Sick Puppy Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/03
Posts: 300
Loc: Nowhere Land
While I was also abused as a child, I was abused as well from ages 18-20... I can relate. I was an adult! I could have prevented it, couldn't I? I know how it feels that none of that literature applies to us sometimes. \:\(

_________________________
And one day we will die
And our ashes will fly
From the aeroplane over the sea
But for now we are young
Let us lay in the sun
And count every beautiful thing we can see


Neutral Milk Hotel - In the Aeroplane Over the Sea

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#39052 - 06/10/03 12:33 PM Re: No-one can relate...even here??!
Little_E Offline
Member & Volunteer
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 11/14/02
Posts: 169
Loc: London UK
Hi Chris.

Like Nathan said we are the young ones. For us the abuse has just ended. Its still Fresh, Its still new. Feelings, Emotions, Hate and Anger. No where to run, traped in side a body which you have lost control of.

Listening to the old "Wolves" here drive me crazzy some times. I'm having enuff problems detail with it now. I dont think I cud live with this pain for as long as they have. They are stong! But so are we!! We have to fight each day. Make it a little futher.

Your right no one can totaly relate to you. Just like everyone else here. Everyones expriance Is different.

I cant wave a magic wand and make it all better, i wish i cud. But now we have to try, try and make this world safter for other children, so they dont have to suffer the way we have. The way we are going to.

This Pain, will be with us a long time, we've going to have up and donws, and Downs and Downs, and loops and twists and turns. But we gota support each other. Together we are stonger, togeher we just might make it throught throught this rollercoaster.

Take Care M8.
Elliot.

_________________________
If your not livin on the edge your taking up to much space!

DISTUBED VISIONS OF AN UNDERWORLD!!

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#39053 - 06/10/03 01:54 PM Re: No-one can relate...even here??!
The Dean Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 2080
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
Hello Chris, I hope you have a good summer day wherever you are.

Dr. Richard Gartner, the President of MS/NOMSV has writtem a book that speaks to these feelings you have and that so many of us have. It has helped me more than any other book I have read.

Richard mentions, that a 16 or 17 year old who has sex with one of his female teachers, or a male, may never feel that he was traumatised, or abused. Physically, he may have loved every minute of it.

BUT, eventually, he will come to understand that he was very much betrayed by that teacher, and violated by her, or him. Instead of being with his peers sexually, he is distracted by this manipulative adult.

Your perp probably saw something in you that made him think you would respond to the offer to get high. He was not interested in that really, he was interested in the fun he could have with your young body.

He did betray you by getting you to a point where the decision making processes of your brain were impaired. Then he took advantage of you.

Many of us were abused at the same age you were. Some, like myself, were abused 50 or 60 times. Most of us admit that part of our being betrayed was very pleasurable. And part was anything but pleasurable.

The big betrayal is to make us think that we wanted to be used, that we really liked it, that this was an "oh Wow" experience for us.

Perps are geniuses in finding how they can best control us, get us to do what they want us to do. And then makle us feel like it was all our fault. Yours did a good job of just that.

No one can tell you what you "should" do or feel. Some young men may well turn to violence against him, others might bother him in some other way. Some hate their perps and some admit that they love him to today.

Young boys harmed by their grand father are an example. They loved and still love him. But they feel embarassed, degraded, used, feel like an object. And grandpa may well have convinced himself that this was a special way to show his love to his little grandson.

The point is Chris that you were betrayed, manipulated, and hooked--none of that happened by accident--he planned it. What happened to you was not loving, not normal, and certainly not healthy.

This is a good place for you to be. You are good for us. Understanding the full extent of the iimpact of this on you may well be several years away yet.

Take care brother.

Bob

_________________________
If we do not live what we believe, then we will begin to believe what we live.

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#39054 - 06/10/03 03:20 PM Re: No-one can relate...even here??!
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
A few thots, men, for what they're worth:

  • Each of us have situations that we are in fact unique in, with some things no one else can exactly relate to. Sometimes this can make us feel left out, alone. Yes I know that feeling.
    \:\( Yet there are so many things we have in common, above all being male survivors of SA. In this we need not be alone.

    There are as far as I know men who come here from age 16 to at least age 70. At 46 I'm more or less in the middle. Some have been dealing with their SA less than a year, a couple of years, or for many years. Some started younger, most older. Me, I was abused from ages 1-11, but always quickly blanked it out, dissociated bigtime. So I only started remembering 2 years ago. For each of us, this is just a matter of life circumstances and how our unique personalities respond to them.

    Survivors often get frozen, stuck, stunted or severely slowed down in their growth, especially emotionally, at the age of (one of) their
    abuse(s). Some of us who were abused more than once over a relatively long period of time develop
    DID (Dissociative Identity Disorder) or other dissociative disorders; parts of us may be stuck at different ages. In short, in some significant ways, some of us "old farts" may actually be
    "younger" than some of you teens & young adults! :p

    No matter what age we are, if we are just remembering the SA it's still in many ways like it just happened. For some of us, sometimes, just remembering it again, its like it just happened.
    Not to minimize how horrible you younger guys for whom it did in time just recently happen. For me it was so horrible when I was 11 that given who I was and where I was at I blocked it out for about 35 years.

    We are all unique, we are all male survivors, we all belong here in the wolf pack!


victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#39055 - 06/10/03 04:42 PM Re: No-one can relate...even here??!
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Chris
I'm NOT old, I'm 50 NEXT month \:D

And like the rest of the guys here I'm so pleased to see someone deal with abuse when they're young, those wasted years really piss me off, don't waste your youth. It's going to be hard work for you, but don't ask how hard it is when you've got so many years of living 'with it' as some of us have.

Your abuse is just the same as any other abuse in many respects, the 'sex' isn't always the most important part of the equation.
The abuse of power, the betrayal of trust and the methods our abusers use to get to us are often a far greater part of the problem. Things like that dig deep into us, it kille our self esteem.

So maybe try to go with the flow, and take the healing as it comes. Something us old farts can stake a claim to is that we've been there, made the f*****g mistakes, and learned the hard way.
Someday I'll get that f****g T shirt ! ;\)

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#39056 - 06/13/03 03:19 AM Re: No-one can relate...even here??!
one_day_at_a_time Offline
Member

Registered: 01/03/03
Posts: 42
Loc: North Carolina
Yo Dude,
Dont feel alone. I am definitely only 19 and trust me there are many times when I feel i go throuhg things that many people dont understand. Someone posted a thread one time that said something to the like of---we all have individual experiences that we have to apply the knowledge that we get here to. It might not be in the way that it is posted--but make it work for you because we are all different. I know that I just started to deal with the abuse stuff and all the things that go along with it. I know its hard trust me I do--I feel like all I have is bad days sometimes--but when I have good days it is well worth the struggle--and thats what i have to tell myself to get through it. Dont worry brother we are all here for you and you gonna make it just trust in God and your brothers here---you ll make----just follow some of these words to live by.

_________________________
I found God

now I just need to find myself

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#39057 - 06/13/03 01:51 PM Re: No-one can relate...even here??!
ernie Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 121
Loc: Portland, Maine
I'm not old either, only 58. My problem is that I was a slow learner, slow to speak out, took me 40 years and loosing my wife to wake me up to reality.
You are never to old or too young to speak out, the great thing is that you have spoken out like the rest of this pack.......spoken out and will continue to do so. There is help and if it started here for you, add a feather to the hat of NOMSV, my feather is there as well, had it not been for the help and encouragement of these brave men, I would not have been able to tell it all.........finally.
Welcome, come back often
Bob

_________________________
The roads of life are full of stones but, they can be moved take my hand we will help each other.

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#39058 - 06/15/03 08:32 PM Re: No-one can relate...even here??!
joeybird Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/20/03
Posts: 8
Loc: FLA
Chris first let me say that you are not alone with what you feel it is very hard for each of us to deal with the sa in our lives i must say that i do wish that i was your age when i started to deal with it myself you see mine started 34 yrs ago and lasted into my teens i am 42 yrs old and it feels like you are takiing baby steps with each issue that comes up you have a chance to heal and go on with your life were some of us will get to parts of our abuse and not be able to get closer please stay with us and learn what you can to get to the next level of your life if its a T you seek speak with some one here or a rape crisis unit at you local police but please know that your brother wolves are here to help.

_________________________
THE PAIN WE FEEL MAY NEVER LEAVE US BUT WE WILL SORVIVE WITH BROTHERHOOD . HUGS TOO MY BREOTHERS

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#39059 - 06/15/03 11:15 PM Re: No-one can relate...even here??!
Ivanhoe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/19/03
Posts: 1907
Joey,

Your having used the words, "baby steps," makes me think of two things:

1.- How old were we really, when our abuse happened?

2.- How many ways are there for us to beat ourselves up?

You know, we could get into this whole psyhco-sexual development age thing and realize that most of us were really children, babies, really.
Someone made the comment about us being set up for our abuse because of how we were or were not raised. I believe that, that most of us did not have the maturity to handle the evil that came our way.

Which leads me into my second point: Just how many ways do we have to beat ourselves up.

Gosh, how many members do we have?

How many folks use this site?

Well, we've got at least that many.

Someone said to me, "Geez, what is that, a forty year sentence you've given yourself? People don't even get forty years for killing somebody"

Well, it looks like I have. I gave myself forty years.

Now, I'm here and I'm healing.
How about you guys, how many years have you sentenced yourselves to?

Good for you younger men. From a Dad who's raised two beautiful daughters, I couldn't be prouder of you younger guys working out your survival.

A warm hug around your shoulders,

David

_________________________
"No soul is desolate as long as there is a human being for whom it can feel trust and reverence."
George Eliot

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#39060 - 06/16/03 11:59 AM Re: No-one can relate...even here??!
Tom S. Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/03
Posts: 161
Loc: Nashville, Tn
If you ever do find a place where you can safely relate, then come back and make a big post and tell us all about it!
It's sad to have to say this, but you have to be cautious around anyone who acts like they want to show compassion. You are exceptionally vulnerable because you really feel the need to have at least one other person who you can share feelings with that is safe to talk to, but there are too many opportunities to be used again by people looking for someone to take back some of the things they had taken from them.
You will be condemed everywhere you go, by family, and even in church, because without you they have to examine themselves, and accecpt their own faults.
But most importantly, and don't take this lightly; be ULTRA CAUTIOUS around anyone you have to pay to relate to you, like counselors, therapists, or anyone who tries to earn their rent listening to your life. Never, and this means N-E-V-E-R relinquish any degree of control to anyone, for any reason, at any time, regardless who they are or what say they posess. If you choose enter therapy, you do so on YOUR basis with YOUR agenda on YOUR terms with someone YOU choose, or DON'T GO!! Make your own informed decisions before consenting to anything, be it an evaluation, an examination, a medication or anything someone else might reccomend, and don't let anyone rush you. Make your own decisions, because you can damn well bet you'll be held accountable for any wrong ones. Go slow, keep both eyes open, and realize there are a huge number of predators around, some even with a PhD.
It's ok to be angry, but don't let your anger out weigh caution and common sense.

quote: "In this time of economic uncertainty, it's easy to see who is dedicated to providing health care, and who's chasing the bucks."

I sincerely hope all the T's who monitor this site get a chance to realize that at least one person out there knows the minimum expectations of the profession. Tom S.

_________________________
' None are so enslaved as those falsely led to believe they are actually free '

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#39061 - 06/16/03 01:10 PM Re: No-one can relate...even here??!
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Tom:

I can understand where you are coming from but I would hesitate and generalization.
Quote:
It's sad to have to say this, but you have to be cautious around anyone who acts like they want to show compassion. You are exceptionally vulnerable because you really feel the need to have at least one other person who you can share feelings with that is safe to talk to, but there are too many opportunities to be used again by people looking for someone to take back some of the things they had taken from them.
You will be condemed everywhere you go, by family, and even in church, because without you they have to examine themselves, and accecpt their own faults.
In my case after 40 years of acting out, low self esteem, attempts at suicide I finally sought help and had to let go. I just could not bear the thought of living with it one more day because I knew it would kill me if I did. It took me quite a while to find someone that could deal with Male SA issues. But since I did I have not looked back. My wife and daughter are totally supportive ans is everyone here. My P is great and I trust them totally, all of them and that includes everyone here and those that lead us here. If I find that someone has betraye that trust I will deal with it as I think I should. I have found nothing but compassion wherever I may be. Even my closest friends know and are supportive.

Quote:
Never, and this means N-E-V-E-R relinquish any degree of control to anyone, for any reason, at any time, regardless who they are or what say they posess. If you choose enter therapy, you do so on YOUR basis with YOUR agenda on YOUR terms with someone YOU choose, or DON'T GO!!
I really dont think that you can let someone in to help you unless you do cede control to them on an equal basis. Control is something that is given freely and taken back freely. I do it with
everyone here when I am looking for help. When I express my inner torments either in post or chat I am letting myself be totally vulnerable. If I do not do this how can anyone help me. If I cannot move out from behind the mask into the harsh light of realizty and bare my soul so to speak I am not really looking for help only playing at it.

Now too often in my life I have played at healing and it only got me closer to my own selfdisgust and loathing. With My Family and P and everyone here I recognize that I must be honest and to do that I have to become vulnerable and trust and cede control.

I think it is dangerous to generalize because everone's experiences are different.
Just my two cents worth.

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#39062 - 06/16/03 03:52 PM Re: No-one can relate...even here??!
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Quote:
I think it is dangerous to generalize because everone's experiences are different.
Just my two cents worth.
Gotta agree with that one.

In the last 13 years or so I've had 4 T's (2 short-term) and 3 Pdocs. All have been good & very
helpful except for my 1st Pdoc who was not really bad just not particularly helpful so I switched to another I had for many years.

Quote:
I really dont think that you can let someone in to help you unless you do cede control to them on an equal basis. Control is something that is given freely and taken back freely. I do it with everyone here when I am looking for help. When I express my inner torments either in post or chat I am letting myself be totally vulnerable.
If I do not do this how can anyone help me. If I cannot move out from behind the mask into the harsh light of realizty and bare my soul so to speak I am not really looking for help only playing at it.
Again, gotta agree, while acknowledging that giving over control is a difficult thing for us to do becuz its so hard to trust. Also I absolutely affirm that we must exercise caution in
exercising trust toward anyone initially. We should be sure not to get ourselves to deep into an uncomfortable relationship, even with a T or any health care worker.

Becuz some of them do abuse their position and some of them are just plain incompetent. And I fell very badly for any of you who have been victimized by these charlatans. However from my experience, observation & discussion with others they are a small minority compared to all the fine T's out there.

As is the case with most of the professionals or groups or people we generalize about sometimes.

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#39063 - 06/16/03 07:12 PM Re: No-one can relate...even here??!
Thad Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/28/01
Posts: 1752
Loc: Oakland, CA
Hey Tom

No one agrees more about the quality of some T's - my experience included a steady succession of Psychiatrists through out my childhood (admittedly in the dark ages of that profession) who were awful - I became positively phobic about their mannerisms and it made it extremely hard to get help later on -

UNTIL - I met a T who was truely experienced in sexual abuse issues - He allowed me to point out every one of his mannerisms and he worked at not doing them (I'm sure he learned a lot from me)- plus he was able to help me recover my SA memories that had been buried for 50 years! He was very skilled - never lead me - and helped me find a long sought after missing piece of the puzzle of my life - I am forever greatful to his skill and professionalism.

Yes, there are some lousy T's but there are some good ones too - and they constitute a safe place for us to work on recovery - I met some incredible ones at the MS retreat - Wow - they were wonderful people from all over the country - I can still see their faces - You guys know who you are!!! - there is hope - even in the face of the incredible damage to our ability to trust.

_________________________
"..this place isn't a discussion forum..it's a portal..." Lupin
"The truth will set you free, but first it will probably piss you off." dwf's AA sponsor.

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#39064 - 06/16/03 10:57 PM Re: No-one can relate...even here??!
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5780
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
Hi Tom:
I would really appreciate your feedback on the article, "A Consumer's Guide to Therapist Shopping" which is somewhere on the MS website. You certainly don't have any awe in therapists and I think you could give some feedback that could be useful in updating the article. I think we're on the same page.

Ken


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#39065 - 06/17/03 11:31 AM Re: No-one can relate...even here??!
Tom S. Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/03
Posts: 161
Loc: Nashville, Tn
Talk about generalizations....
It is heart warming to see you fellows on the road to recovery, it must have been hell, but I stand by what I said.
N-E-V-E-R under ANY CIRCUMASTANCE rerlinquish any degree of control regardless of what any egotistical T says.
No one can heal you but you and God, and YOU MUST REMAIN IN CONTROL AT ALL TIMES without deravation if you want to be free.
The whole counseling profession needs the revelation that they are simply facilitators, and not the God like healers with a messiah complex they potray themselves to be, regardless of what level of education or competency they have to offer.
Counselors, MD's or any other provider is nothing more than a person just like the abused victims you are sworn to serve.
I believe you T's need to examine your motives. How many good people are suddenly cured when their benefits run out, or how many are re-victimized by a superior they place trust and control in who offers a sympathy fuck? You can find stats on any aspect of mental health, but that's never tracked.
This issue needs further publication, and you in the profession who run this site need to learn just how dangerous to these individuals this potentially is. There is a very large number of vulnerable folks writing in here and the chance of further damage is far to great to think you deserve a right to control them in any degree.
Just what do you think caused them to be victimized to begin with? Taking control is something most need to learn, and there is no shade of gray happy medium for someone who has been victimized, sexually or other wise.

Mr. Singer: I will try to locate the site you describe, but I would much prefer to e-mail you direct.

quote: "In this time of ecenomic uncertainty, it's easy to see who is dedicated to providing health care, and who is chasing bucks."
quote: "I wonder how many dedicated professionals would get up and go in to work, if they knew they would not get paid that week?"

Tom S.

_________________________
' None are so enslaved as those falsely led to believe they are actually free '

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#39066 - 06/17/03 11:47 AM Re: No-one can relate...even here??!
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Hi Tom:

Gotta take exception again. Are there bad Therapists? Sure there are. Just as there are bad cops, doctors, lawyers, teachers, engineers, pilots, Generals, Politicians, Dentists, Scientist and in any other profession or field you can think of. But to brand them all with the same stigma because of the few is totally unjust.

These are professional people, and many of those that help with SA are survivors themselves. The have gone to school and university for long hours and have sacrificed a lot of their free time to get where they are. Do they deserve to be compensated? Just as much as a surgeon who saves your life does.

Quote:
N-E-V-E-R under ANY CIRCUMASTANCE rerlinquish any degree of control regardless of what any egotistical T says
Ton they are not all egotistical. Your comment, I think, is totally unfair to the profession for the reasons stated above.

In your original post you said:

Quote:
Never, and this means N-E-V-E-R relinquish any degree of control to anyone, for any reason, at any time, regardless who they are or what say they posess.
How can I not do this with my Wife or Daughter or my very good friends. I mean if you choose to do it fine but you are missing a whole lot of life. It is my humble opinion tht control is shared in good relationships and that is as it should be.

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#39067 - 06/17/03 12:03 PM Re: No-one can relate...even here??!
RemittentPeace Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/06/03
Posts: 19
I agree everyone's experiences different. I applaud anyone who address how they feel they are very specifically different than others. I still feel very different and I haven't talked about it b/c I am afraid personally that I will be discounted (I tried to in chat). So just talking about it is a big step IMO.


btw re: therapist I can only relate my experience. I had about a dozen horrible ones (one knew my dad and was a complete a-hole) but I eventually did find a fantastic one. I'm not telling anyone to hang in there or keep trying, but that approach did work in my case eventually. too bad she lives in another state now and I can no longer see her.

I had one immediate family member that was the opposite of supportive, so I have not given my trust to my family b/c they are my family, I have really had to evaluate each one and see if that individual is worth trusting w/ my feelings and to what level.

I like the mention of control. Having complete control and thus by extension responsibility (the two go hand in hand in my life) has been hard for me to do. I did not want to take control b/c I was frightened to. For me it was like swimming. I was very frightened to swim as a kid, but once I got the hang of it, I loved it. That is purely a personal experience though.

btw sorry to talk about myself so much. not trying to hijack the thread.


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#39068 - 06/17/03 12:10 PM Re: No-one can relate...even here??!
Marc Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 256
Loc: Tucson, AZ
I need help with a therapist (Not from, with.)

I need to get to work so I can't go into details right now but after I lay it all out later today I'll need some feedback. I can't tell if I had a good one or not since I trust no one to start with \:\(

Marc

NOTE: Details of my inquiry can be found here .


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#39069 - 06/18/03 10:24 AM Re: No-one can relate...even here??!
Tom S. Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/03
Posts: 161
Loc: Nashville, Tn
Quote:
Originally posted by mikechurch:
Hi Tom:

Gotta take exception again. Are there bad Therapists? Sure there are. Just as there are bad cops, doctors, lawyers, teachers, engineers, pilots, Generals, Politicians, Dentists, Scientist and in any other profession or field you can think of. But to brand them all with the same stigma because of the few is totally unjust.

These are professional people, and many of those that help with SA are survivors themselves. The have gone to school and university for long hours and have sacrificed a lot of their free time to get where they are. Do they deserve to be compensated? Just as much as a surgeon who saves your life does.

Quote:
N-E-V-E-R under ANY CIRCUMASTANCE rerlinquish any degree of control regardless of what any egotistical T says
Ton they are not all egotistical. Your comment, I think, is totally unfair to the profession for the reasons stated above.

In your original post you said:

Quote:
Never, and this means N-E-V-E-R relinquish any degree of control to anyone, for any reason, at any time, regardless who they are or what say they posess.
How can I not do this with my Wife or Daughter or my very good friends. I mean if you choose to do it fine but you are missing a whole lot of life. It is my humble opinion tht control is shared in good relationships and that is as it should be.
Mike;
I hate to have to say this, because I don't really want to keep stepping on your toes, but if you actually practice and believe what you are writing here, then I sense you have a dependancy problem holding other people in higher regard than yourself. I think the whole issue of responsibility and control is something you should closley examine, and not necessarily with your present T.
You should know all the nobel professions you mention are no better than the people who work in them, and the counseling profession; and I speak from first hand experience in my area, is compromised of some of the worst wash-outs from other professions, with some of the most deviant personal agenda anywhere, with no one dedicated solely toward the benefit of the client.
If an individual in the mid-Tn area enters the theraputic arena with any issue sexual in nature, they had better damn well maintain a clear head and complete control at all times unless being re-victimized is not a concern. There are simply no good/bad T's. The results can be devastating in this self policed profession. There is no system of accountability, requiring NO specilized training, and IF liscensing is even involved, it is done by the same branch of local govt that liscenses palm readers and used car lots.
But I will have to agree Mike, I have lost out on a bunch of life, but it is not simply because I choose to stay in control. I choose to stay away from substance abuse, prison or any other deviance that I know carries a consequence that I choose not to deal with, and if that choice leaves me alone with God, then so be it. I WILL remain in control, at all times, in EVERY circumstance.
Finally, I don't know your wife or daughter, but as the eldest male in my household, I am left with the responsibility to be the head, looked up to by both my family and by law. One thing you need to consider immediatly, is the fact that when someone in your household is involved with the law, especially minor children, then who do you think gets the warrant served on them? The head of the house hold with your last name, and it's not your wife, because she did not adopt you and change your name, but rather she changed her name when you married her. I have no problem with giving in, too frequently I admit and many times spoil them. But; I CHOOSE to.
Someone else start a thread on control.
quote: In this time of ecenomic uncertainty, it's easy to see who is dedicated to providing health care, and who is chasing bucks.
Tom S.

_________________________
' None are so enslaved as those falsely led to believe they are actually free '

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#39070 - 06/18/03 11:06 AM Re: No-one can relate...even here??!
godsrabbit Offline
Member

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 98
Quote:
Originally posted by Tom S.:
N-E-V-E-R under ANY CIRCUMASTANCE rerlinquish any degree of control regardless of what any egotistical T says.
No one can heal you but you and God, and YOU MUST REMAIN IN CONTROL AT ALL TIMES without deravation if you want to be free.
dear tom,

as someone who has been, for the last year, extremely antagonistic toward therapy and as someone who leans deeply on my faith in healing, i feel compelled to point out the contradiction in your above statement so that perhaps you can see the others' viewpoints from another perspective...

God is in control...we are not...whether you choose to relinquish control to a therapist or to God, the fact is accepting that you are not capable of changing the past, only embracing a future in which there is hope...

it has taken me a long time to reconcile my faith with my counseling because i was forever in the trap of saying: "i do not need this, i have God"...well, God gives us what we need to heal and sometimes it is a flash of revelation, sometimes it is a therapist who knows how to listen...i have stopped questioning the ways in which God chooses to help me...

if you do not believe that it is God's choice for you, that is okay...but we do not need to "give up" control to a therapist or anyone else...we cannot give up something which we do not possess, first of all, and secondly...it is not about "giving up"...it is about letting go...

~ peace


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#39071 - 06/18/03 01:48 PM Re: No-one can relate...even here??!
hdan Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/06/03
Posts: 43
Loc: Texas
Hi Stranger,

Looks like the collective we got sidetracked in the discussion of T's (which might be a good thing to move to another thread). Certainly there are the good and bad - look for the good and avoid the bad.

Although, my sexual abuse started early (8ish I would say - I'm 35 now and understand if I'm considered old by you and other people - gosh, when I was 22 a 35 year-old person was almost over the hill...lol \:D ...anyhow...), it continued into high school. I was a big guy too for my age (now I'm more a normal size guy as the other boys grew more) so it's made it hard for me to deal with the fact that I didn't stop the abusers (who ranged from my dad to other men to other boys slighly older than me). I've debated with myself why I didn't stop them. I first told myself it's because I wanted it or I enjoyed it. Then I would tell myself I should just "be a man", forget it and go on.

But in each case, the other person had an agenda to abuse me (or sometimes the word "abuse" is too politcally correct and generic - the true word is to "rape" me or take sexual advantage of me to achieve their own sexual goals). Sure I enjoyed it, and, as the only positive thing I ever had with a guy, I even wanted it.

However, it doesn't detract from the fact that I was being raped. I wasn't doing it out of love for someone or even just sexual pleasure between consenting people, I was doing it because of the fear that had been instilled in me, because of the low self esteem and co-dependency given to me by past abuses, because I thought that I wasn't able to have any real friends and had to settle for this abuse as my "friendship" with guys, because, I think, most importantly, they could sense that I wouldn't - or counldn't - say no. This inability to say no is one of the true evils of the sexual abuse of men/boys.

Anyhow, there's more to my story that may be of interest to you, but I'll stick to the topic of this thread. I challenge you to do the incredibly hard work of working through your abuse while you are younger. When you get to the other side in your twenties and really start to feel alive rather than dead inside, you will be glad that you did it then rather than in your thirties like me or the 40s or 50s like others. Take heart!


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#39072 - 06/18/03 01:55 PM Re: No-one can relate...even here??!
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Rabbit & Hdan:

Both of your posts--very well spoken. Thank you.



Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#39073 - 06/18/03 06:55 PM Re: No-one can relate...even here??!
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Tom
Quote:
N-E-V-E-R under ANY CIRCUMASTANCE rerlinquish any degree of control regardless of what any egotistical T says.
When I started my therapy, with an excellent therapist - there are many out there, I was out of control.

I was acting out, and generally a mess. I had no goals in life, no self esteem and I just drifted aimlessly through my life, no control of my life whatsoever.
So did I relinquish my 'control' ?

No. I don't believe I did, firstly I had to regain it, which I did with guidance from my therapist.
I had the answers inside of me, I just needed leading to them, and having them reinforced and explained as I found them for myself.

Now that I have a good level of control, and it's of my doing and my responsibility I'm finding it both possible and beneficial to relinquish that control at different times to various people.

I trust myself to trust others.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#39074 - 06/19/03 09:31 AM Re: No-one can relate...even here??!
Tom S. Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/03
Posts: 161
Loc: Nashville, Tn
Godsrabbit;

God is in control...we are not...whether you choose to relinquish control to a therapist or to God, the fact is accepting that you are not capable of changing the past, only embracing a future in which there is hope...

Perhaps I was unclear, and you are correct. We must allow God the opportunity to work in our lives if we are to be free, and only God can do this, and even quite possibly through what everyone here refers to as a 'T'. And, as you point out, that we can safetly relinquish control to God, since he is actually in control to start with. *But first you better know who God is* This is beyond the scope of the thread here, so I do not expound further, however thanx for the clarification and I stand corrected.
My point in all this is to make everyone aware that the 'T' profession is full of predators, and the likley hood of being abused again with a theraputic agenda that is sexual in nature is extremly high if the above fact is not strictly adhered to, because the first major step toward victimization is loss of control in the situation.
God can be trusted every time, but not every person, and the whole point of all this writng is that these 'T's are NOT God, and in many instances they are maladjusted individuals far worse off than you. This is what the profession wants to keep out of sight.
Personally, I believe it should be law that no individual could be counseled without at least one other individual in the counseling room with the client and therapist, ie: group therapy.
A pediphile is a pediphile; even if s/he has a Phd, and is liscensed in 7 states to practice counseling.

quote: 'In this time of ecenomic uncertainty, it is easy to see who is dedicated to health care, and wh is chasing bucks.'

Thanks again Godrabbit; Tom S.

_________________________
' None are so enslaved as those falsely led to believe they are actually free '

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#39075 - 06/19/03 12:21 PM Re: No-one can relate...even here??!
godsrabbit Offline
Member

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 98
bless you tom,

praying for you....


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#39076 - 06/19/03 01:31 PM Re: No-one can relate...even here??!
Tom S. Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/03
Posts: 161
Loc: Nashville, Tn
Quote:
Originally posted by godsrabbit:
bless you tom,

praying for you....
....and me for you Godsrabbit.

'and wherever 2 or more of them are gathered in my name, so shall I be'

Tom S.

_________________________
' None are so enslaved as those falsely led to believe they are actually free '

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