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#390334 - 03/23/12 09:48 AM Betrayals in Marriage- The Variety Pack
herowannabe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/01/11
Posts: 386
Loc: USA
Quote:
But to focus on acting out as the only betrayal, I think we are missing many other factors that impact the CSA victim and the spouse and how each cope in their marriage.


Can we list some of these "many other factors"? Other than sexually acting out against a spouse, what are other "betrayals" you've perpetrated/suffered?

_________________________


For I know the plans I have made for you. Plans to give you a future and a hope. Jeremiah 29:11


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#390338 - 03/23/12 10:09 AM Re: Betrayals in Marriage- The Variety Pack [Re: herowannabe]
herowannabe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/01/11
Posts: 386
Loc: USA
Supporter here.

Though my husband's sexually acting out was "the" huge trauma to our marriage, the actual act of sex apart from me, his wife, was the result of many little betrayals. The grand poohbah of the betrayals was:

Disclosure (bearing your soul to your soulmate).

What became clear in the wake of his acting out was that I really had NO clue about the life experiences that shaped my husband. As a result, I didn't know HIM.

He knew of his CSA and he knew of things he'd done in response to his CSA, but he chose to never tell me of those things. I understand his reasoning, but the fact is that hiding significant parts of himself from me, the person from whom he expected life-long loyalty and devotion, was deceit.

Deceit is betrayal. The secret-keeper intends to keep the secret for his own benefit (eg. if I tell her she'll think less of me, if I tell her she'll leave me, if I tell her I'll be embarrassed, etc.). It is the grandest act of manipulation: I will hide this from her to acheive my goals.

A marriage is greatly handicapped when its foundation is full of sinkholes; it's only a matter of time before something gives.

That is the one betrayal that all of the other betrayals were born of.


Peace-
herowannabe

_________________________


For I know the plans I have made for you. Plans to give you a future and a hope. Jeremiah 29:11


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#390340 - 03/23/12 10:24 AM Re: Betrayals in Marriage- The Variety Pack [Re: herowannabe]
Castle Offline


Registered: 10/03/09
Posts: 734
Loc: NJ
I wonder if you would share some of the baggage you brought into the marriage? or did you not bring anything from your past and upbringing into this particular marriage?

I'm not saying you cheated or the likes, but nobody comes into a marriage or relationship without bringing some baggage in, I'm curious if you can put to words what you brought in from your upbringing, family, prior marriages or relationships.

We certainly, many times over, know the shame and hurt "your survivor" brought in and on you, because of his acting out and his history.

Edited to take out a name...I certainly didn't mean to "out" a survivor but thought it was common knowledge whom your survivor is, my appologies to you and to your survivor.

_________________________

My posts can self destruct at any time..read them while you can.

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#390347 - 03/23/12 10:37 AM Re: Betrayals in Marriage- The Variety Pack [Re: Castle]
herowannabe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/01/11
Posts: 386
Loc: USA
First, you do not need to identify my husband. I should think you'd know enough by now to not name a fellow survivor.

I will answer your questions after you correct your most inappropriate attempt to embarrass my husband.

herowannabe- or, as YOU prefer to call me, wannabe.

_________________________


For I know the plans I have made for you. Plans to give you a future and a hope. Jeremiah 29:11


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#390349 - 03/23/12 10:41 AM Re: Betrayals in Marriage- The Variety Pack [Re: herowannabe]
KMCINVA Offline
Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1782
Why do we not feel safe to tell anyone about the abuse? What does it take us to feel safe? We hide from others, we interpret their words and actions as not being caring and loving. We are asked years later why we did not tell anyone--parent, sibling, spouse, friend-we did not want to accept the abuse nor did we feel safe to share this part of our life. I am learning i did not feel safe for a lifetime to share, it took therapy and a non judgmental voice to open up the wounds that i long wanted to bury. So everyone asks why i did not feel safe with anyone. I do not know but now know listening, hearing, not judging a person or having conversations that put others down frequently, a gentle smile or pat on the shoulder are so important in human interaction and building trust. How many secrets do children have from parents, spouse from spouse, friend from friend, sibling from sibling? I think they are more than anyone wishes to admit. We all have a past, unless anyone is perfect and has lived amongst perfect people than their are things that we do not share, fear holds us back of how the other person will react and we assume how they react to other people will be the way the react to us, always fearing a condemnation or put down. Survivors have a poor foundation to trust, sadly and unfortunately it takes more to gain our trust to share what we see as a shameful past.


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#390355 - 03/23/12 10:57 AM Re: Betrayals in Marriage- The Variety Pack [Re: KMCINVA]
Castle Offline


Registered: 10/03/09
Posts: 734
Loc: NJ
Usually like "asking for forgiveness" nobody should ask a survivor "why didn't you tell?" For many of the reasons K has mentioned above...in addition to a few more.

_________________________

My posts can self destruct at any time..read them while you can.

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#390374 - 03/23/12 02:21 PM Re: Betrayals in Marriage- The Variety Pack [Re: Castle]
lucylives Offline


Registered: 04/07/11
Posts: 367
Let's see...betrayals other than infidelity.

I will keep it brief.

Financial misconduct-marrying me after lying to me about the amount of debt he was coming into the marriage with. HUGE amount. Illegal activities connected with financial shit.

I will not go into other things here. It doesn't feel safe.


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#390390 - 03/23/12 03:59 PM Re: Betrayals in Marriage- The Variety Pack [Re: lucylives]
Castle Offline


Registered: 10/03/09
Posts: 734
Loc: NJ
I would never use the word perpetrated, but ill play along a little...Early in recovery I lied to my wifes face, a few times about smoking cigarettes again. She has a wicked good sense of smell so she knew but I did lie to her about it..and we wound up in T together.

Like your trying to say it wasn't the act of smoking she was mad at but the lying...she thought I was just going/driving and hour twenty each way to T to hang and bitch about stuff and smoke a bunch of cigarettes..LOl. We wound up after a huge fight in T together to work out the issue and have been pretty good since...In the past I might consider lying about a parking/speeding ticket...but now, I will just tell her cause if I lie about it it will be that much worse and since we worked together she hasnt gone "crazy" if by change I get a ticket or the likes. Initially my survivor brain might tell me she will go "crazy" b ut she will say when was the last time I did that..which is true it hasn't happenedd, but the initial instinct is to protect myself.

I still feel the smoking was a catch 22 and here is where the mars and venus comes into play...if I said I "needed" to smoke cigarettes she would not have said ok...even though it was a way for me to get a bit of control in the moment..it still wouldn't have been cool so I "had" to lie or not smoke..i choose to smoke and lie and aid the consequences for it..."funny" that I can do many things and we are ok, but smoking cigarettes is completely off the table because of the lying trigger and I enjoy my relationship and sex life much more than I enjoy smoking cigs, but I do miss them...the consequence is just not worth the gain and we keep some balance in our relationship.


It is becoming easier and easier to automatically tell her things I think might make her angry vs what actually makes her angry now vs survivor brain saying protect yourself at all costs even with a stupid lie.

FWIW...even if you don't want me to post or the likes this writing is good for me smile so thanks...possible it may even help some others who may not mention it today, tomorrow or ever...that's cool too.

_________________________

My posts can self destruct at any time..read them while you can.

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#390393 - 03/23/12 04:12 PM Re: Betrayals in Marriage- The Variety Pack [Re: herowannabe]
herowannabe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/01/11
Posts: 386
Loc: USA
Quote:
It is becoming easier and easier to automatically tell her things I think might make her angry vs what actually makes her angry now vs survivor brain saying protect yourself at all costs even with a stupid lie.


I think this is a great example of how the survivor's emotional maturity gets "short-circuited" by CSA.

You'd think a healthy, grown man wouldn't be afraid of telling the truth about anything that wasn't hurting another individual. However, it seems that many (most???) male survivors are trapped in a childlike fear of the consequences of telling the truth. And that's where it all goes wrong in a marriage.

I'm really glad you and your wife nipped that in the bud because little lies turn to big lies in the blink of an eye.

Thanks for this helpful post, Castle.

herowannabe

_________________________


For I know the plans I have made for you. Plans to give you a future and a hope. Jeremiah 29:11


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#390395 - 03/23/12 04:20 PM Re: Betrayals in Marriage- The Variety Pack [Re: herowannabe]
Castle Offline


Registered: 10/03/09
Posts: 734
Loc: NJ
There is nothing "childlike" of the fear of telling the truth when you were hiding it for others at our expense for 25+ years...I think is some of whats lost in translation....also I said "makes her angry NOW" she used to get angry about a ticket before she worked on some of her issues too...so there was some precedent to my "fears".

We both worked on ourselves AND the realtionship as a whole and have gotton to a much better place...but it wasn't on one of us to change and the other stay completly the same.

and YW.

_________________________

My posts can self destruct at any time..read them while you can.

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#390539 - 03/24/12 02:11 PM Re: Betrayals in Marriage- The Variety Pack [Re: Castle]
Mulligan Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/15/10
Posts: 94
Loc: USA
"Deceit is betrayal. The secret-keeper intends to keep the secret for his own benefit (eg. if I tell her she'll think less of me, if I tell her she'll leave me, if I tell her I'll be embarrassed, etc.). It is the grandest act of manipulation: I will hide this from her to acheive my goals."

Please accept my apologies for being so abrupt on the matter but this statement should be taken down or I am reading it out of context or something.

Not disclosing has everything to do with trust. Do I trust that this person wont hurt me? Clearly by this statement it is evident that you are/were hurtful. Selfishness is never the reason for non disclosure. It has everything to do with being abused and broken trust.

_________________________
Because I never give up the fight!

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#390547 - 03/24/12 02:35 PM Re: Betrayals in Marriage- The Variety Pack [Re: Mulligan]
KMCINVA Offline
Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1782
Mulligan well said. I believe it is how each party in the relationship feels and perceives the words and actions of the other party--do they trust each other. The survivor has a weak foundation for trust and if he feels that the "secret" will be used against him or not believed he will hold back. If the survivor feels or perceives (and perception is his own reality) that the other spouse has a tendency to judge others harshly or derives pleasure of putting others down, then the survivor will hold back. Does the other spouse make fun of the survivor in public--the survivor may laugh but is hurt and now builds a wall that what will be said will be used against him. Also how does the survivor feel in the relationship--does he perceive himself as number 1 in the relationship or does he always believe he stands behind the children, the spouse's parents and siblings--his being or word meaning little? This will effect trust and feeling of worth. There are so many reasons why the survivor does not trust and it goes back to the abuse. Failure to tell does not mean manipulation but rather to the survivor survival.


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#390550 - 03/24/12 03:06 PM Re: Betrayals in Marriage- The Variety Pack [Re: KMCINVA]
Esposa Offline
F&F Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 728
Loc: NJ
As a spouse, I agree. I understand that he needed to disclose on his own timetable and would NEVER consider that a betrayal. As I have posted before, I wasn't ready at 22 and neither was he.


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#390636 - 03/25/12 12:03 AM Re: Betrayals in Marriage- The Variety Pack [Re: Esposa]
lucylives Offline


Registered: 04/07/11
Posts: 367
I have just one thing to say.....I take offense to the posts that say maybe they didn't tell us because they didn't trush us, feels we may judge harshly, use it against them. blah blah blah. Not trying to disrespect you guys but if that is the case, why didn't my survivor tell ANYONE for 40 years?????? Is everyone in the world judgemental, untrustworthy and all the other reasons they don't tell.

I am sorry but my husband didn't keep it secret from me or anyone else because of anything other than shame and embaressment. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not we are trustworthy or not. Obviously we are as most of us are the only people they have ever told.


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#390658 - 03/25/12 09:25 AM Re: Betrayals in Marriage- The Variety Pack [Re: KMCINVA]
Anniemy4sons Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/29/11
Posts: 98
Loc: NJ
Ok, I'll buy into that some of you married women who act like that. It makes sense that some men will marry women who they know will treat them badly. Their CSA shame will make them "look" for women who will shame & abuse them further.

But some look for nice women that THEY can USE. Some look for women that have their own baggage of abuse and dysfunction, that the survivor can manipulate & control. Pass it on. "the weaker one". Some survivors are not knights in shining armor but are abusive angry men hiding behind the "face" of a knight in shining armor.

Sorry guys but sometimes it does mean manipulation.

My husband didn't disclose because he said he couldn't tell me one thing without the other. AND he wasn't READY to stop. For him, sexual addiction was more important. HE felt he already HAD to give up so much (ALCHOHOL & DRUGS @ 19 years old) that he DESERVED to have some pleasure! YES HE SAID PLEASURE.
Getting sober from drugs and alcohol was something he always resented. He said he did it out of spite because people said he couldn't do it. No one tells him what to do! NO ONE!
He said sometimes it was about the shame cycle and sometimes just because he enjoyed it. He felt he had so much responsibility. Still blamed the whole world because he had a sh*TTy childhood. (parents divorce, carrying around the shame of the CSA, drug addiction etc). Then, the responsibility of being a husband & father. He deserved something of his OWN.
The secrets took on a life of its own that HE was protecting. He said it was not until recent years that the infidelity began to bother him. He started to feel guilty for betraying me and as it escalated HE felt like a prisoner to the shame HE was perpetuating. Not shame about the abuse but shame due to HIS shameful behavior - the sex with other women, giving me STDs, (he got treated but didn't help/tell me) chasing other women, spending family money on other women, gambling, golf, etc. The summer of 2010 was a turning point but not enough. He watched me getting sicker and sicker through the summer. Doctor's couldn't figure out what was wrong with me AND HE KEPT HIS MOUTH SHUT. He never said "hey I may have gotten her sick .." He sometimes didn't even show up at the hospital because he said "It made ME feel bad about myself.." HELLO??
He left me to fly home alone(I got seriously ill while away) from vacation(an international flight) because HE didn't want to cut HIS short.

When he finally disclosed everything he said it never occurred to him that he couldn't trust me. HE knew he could trust me. He also said he knew I would help him.

He also said he went through a grieving process after disclosure because now I knew everything and he was sharing something that was HIS and his alone.
Distorted thinking.
I get it, now that he has voiced it and in therapy he sees what screwed up thinking he had.
ALSO,
He was always number one in our house. If HE was uncomfortable then the rest of US had to change to make him comfortable. If he walked into the TV room and we were watching TV then HE would turn the channel to what he wanted. If he was hot and we were cold HE would turn the heat down & open a window. (He would tell us to put on a sweater)

Despite some of your own experiences(Act IN), some survivors ARE selfish and arrogant and self centered(Act OUT). He spent so much time feeding "I'm a victim", "I'm a victim" that he felt ENTITLED to whatever whenever. No matter WHO got mowed down in his angry spray of bullets. This includes his children, his wife, his family.
Slowly he has begun the recovery process but that didn't happen until he acknowledged that HE is only a victim if he allows himself to still buy into the lies.

You see, its not always black and white. ALL survivors are NOT the same but I am beginning to think there are the survivors that:

1) Act out
2) Act in
3) A combination of the BOTH.

I just happened to marry one who severely ACTED OUT.

_________________________
God is my teacher, Jesus my comfort and the Holy Spirit my protector.
I AM Listening...

Thank you Mother Mary.
Pray the Rosary every day. http://www.comepraytherosary.org/

I BELIEVE IN HER PROMISE.

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#390659 - 03/25/12 09:40 AM Re: Betrayals in Marriage- The Variety Pack [Re: Anniemy4sons]
Mulligan Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/15/10
Posts: 94
Loc: USA
Just because someone doesn't have the ability to trust doesn't mean you are not trust worthy. I am sorry you had to experience that. Basically what your husband was dealing with was trying to have his needs met...but unfortunately when you can't trust anyone its like trying to empty the ocean with a five gallon bucket.

I also don't think I can reply here without acknoweledging your anger. Anger is a necessary part of the greiving process. Keep moving forward.

_________________________
Because I never give up the fight!

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#390661 - 03/25/12 09:46 AM Re: Betrayals in Marriage- The Variety Pack [Re: Mulligan]
Esposa Offline
F&F Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 728
Loc: NJ
Trying to empty the ocean with a five gallon bucket...

That is extremely well put.

Annie - sound familiar?


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#390693 - 03/25/12 02:08 PM Re: Betrayals in Marriage- The Variety Pack [Re: Esposa]
Anniemy4sons Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/29/11
Posts: 98
Loc: NJ
so so familiar..

and HE even admits they weren't needs. He said "he wanted what he wanted when he wanted"

He saw, he liked, he wanted, he took .

He is working very hard on his self centeredness and his selfishness. He stops himself now and says "that was selfish wasn't it.." Never in our 23+ years has he ever caught himself or even admitted when he was behaving badly. He has a long way to go but he has come so far.

I expect slips (NOT the ACTING OUT kind), I expect imperfection. But I'd rather voice some here than dump every last one on his lap. If I complained about every single time he screws up while trying to fix this thing He'd never get anywhere. He would be concentrating too much on NOT messing up. He would feel like a failure. He would start listening to those old tapes again. I'm sure of it.
"old tapes" - I'm referring to the lies he told himself. He's not good enough. He's a loser, He's worthless. He had in his head all these years that he is not good enough for me/I'm too good for him. If I ever found out who he really was, I would leave him. He couldn't believe I would date him let alone marry him... if I knew.. IF I KNEW...

Neither one of us is well enough to voice every last thing to each other. I'm not healed enough and he's not strong enough to deal with EVERYTHING. But if we do this right, we WILL get there someday.




Edited by Anniemy4sons (03/25/12 02:38 PM)
_________________________
God is my teacher, Jesus my comfort and the Holy Spirit my protector.
I AM Listening...

Thank you Mother Mary.
Pray the Rosary every day. http://www.comepraytherosary.org/

I BELIEVE IN HER PROMISE.

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#410531 - 09/18/12 01:16 PM Re: Betrayals in Marriage- The Variety Pack [Re: herowannabe]
northernflicker Offline


Registered: 08/19/12
Posts: 88
This thread is sooooooo educational for me. Glad I found it.

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#410582 - 09/19/12 12:13 AM Re: Betrayals in Marriage- The Variety Pack [Re: herowannabe]
HD001 Offline


Registered: 07/30/12
Posts: 263
Loc: us
1) not being trusted
2) not being listened to
3) feeling like your feelings don't matter
4) being blamed for things that aren't your fault
5) being pushed away

I list these as because in western culture being in a committed relationship implies that you will be loved, trusted, listened to, and that your needs and feelings will be equally important as your partners. My partner has never cheated (that I know about). His acting out had more to do with punishing me for having needs and feelings because he is so uncomfortable with his own so he responds by pushing away and drinking. Getting angry and blaming me for things.
_________________________
Everything comes from within

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#410602 - 09/19/12 07:29 AM Re: Betrayals in Marriage- The Variety Pack [Re: herowannabe]
northernflicker Offline


Registered: 08/19/12
Posts: 88
Yup, HD001, had that too. As I understand it it's part of the "I'm not OK, you're not OK" in fearful attachment.

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#410696 - 09/20/12 02:04 AM Re: Betrayals in Marriage- The Variety Pack [Re: herowannabe]
MissHeidi Offline


Registered: 09/04/12
Posts: 9
Betrayal by not caring about others and not being considerate because of his sense of entitlement.

For me, one major betrayal is that I assume a person who loves me and I love - will care for me and about me and how I feel. I feel betrayed because I tried my best to give care and be considerate, but through he actions he always communicated "I don't care about you or how you feel". And he used my caring for him to manipulate me and push my boundaries. I know the same dynamic takes place in regular relationships, but my H. was extreme and totally unconscious. He did not understand what I was talking about.

1) the constant lies and deceit about even small things - before knowing about the sexual acting out, there were still lies, and when a person lies to me, I feel they say "I don't care about you". That is a betrayal of trust and keeping partner off balance.

2)outside requests/approval was more important than family's request/approval. Because outside request was superficial and easy to handle (giving gratification without giving self). To the outsider looked like he was a great husband (and I codependently assisted even though in private I again and again said that keeping the facade was draining and hurt me.

3)lack of empathy. My or others complaints and needs were basically never heard or acknowledged. Even when kids got hurt, his first reaction was "not my fault" (no one would blame him"), second reaction to shut up the kids, their crying (he couldnt handle it) instead of acknowledging their feelings, their pain and teach them to problem solve(heal them).

4)ENTITLEMENT. It was all about satisying his entitlement. never considering others entitlement. One rulebook for him. Another for the rest of the planet. Everyone learned to walk on eggshells around him.
5)Manipulation. Using others decency, honestly, politeness to make them give in to his arguments.

6)never apologizing, explaining himself, admitting when wrong.

7)the binge spending "to feel good". Sound stupid, but I have to list it as it has been a full-time job for years organizing his shopping sprees. Big shopping sprees. He would shop constantly and then he left the bags at the front door and never thought of the purchases again. I always had to "clean up" and organize the house and our life. I could never get an answers why every stupid thing he saw was necessary to own (control). Part of his thing was the high from the sales persons admiration that he was "important" and their willingness to be submissive for the $. My complaints were never heard and his actions never explained. He could spend $$$ on stupid stuff, but at the same time I was wasteful when I used would throw crap away or buy non-generic food.

The sexual acting out (there were lots) has been less harmful (other than lack of intimacy) than the daily emotional stress from not understanding why he felt so entitled.

just my reflections on the daily betrayals. My only solitude is knowing that he did not understand himself and therefore havent been able to give me logical answers to all my "why"s.


Edited by MissHeidi (09/20/12 02:33 AM)

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#410714 - 09/20/12 05:22 AM Re: Betrayals in Marriage- The Variety Pack [Re: herowannabe]
G1psy Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 13
Loc: Netherlands
hi hero,

"The variety pack", that's a funny way to describe the whole packet. smile

What comes to my mind is "the inlaws" who came with the marriage. The caused me trauma/betrayal as well as my husband.

Like you i wanted to make the best of things, help, support just be a real family with my inlaws.
I have done so many things for them. They have hurt me so bad. I feel i never will recover from their betrayal.

After my husband's disclosure, i came to see for the fist time, their real nature. After thirteen years!

When my husband wanted to leave me and our four year old sick child for his affair, his mother apparantly said something like, "i can't blame you". "She is such a closed and a reserved person". I never knew she thought bad of me. Wierd how she accuses me, when this family is full, - packed - with secrets.

Whenever i expressed conserns about my husband to her, she would change the topic.

I can only say now that my own mother would have responded very different if i would have been the one having an affair. She would have stood up for my husband and told me it was not oke to do this to him and our son.

When my mother inlaw heard of her other son approaching my husband in a sexuall way when they where children, (he wanted to have anal sex and sort of wanted to force him) she said it was just normal boy behaviour, exploring their bodies.

And the list goes on. I didn't know either that my father in law was photographing his stepdaughters panties when he was babysitting, practised sm, or had fantasies about raping someone with the use of a dog.
I cry now. I do. Freaking crazy family.

I never want to see them again. They sometimes stand on my doorstep telling me that the want to spend time with my son.
I tell them calmly to hit the road. And how do i explain this to my son. That im telling his grandma to piss of.
I just tell him bad things happend. And we will tell him one day what occured. When he is old enough.

My husband is a total mess. He has PTSD-c. He almost faints when he thinks about his abuse when he's doing his exposure therapy. I still don't know exactly what happend to him. Only that he was raped vilently. But lots of things happend, he is working slowly through this.

But yeah, my inlaws they are part of the variety package. But, a packet i have dumped.

I think now, how come i never knew... Is it me am i crazy, blind ?
I think now that you don't see what you don't know. A "healthy" person is trained to think good about other people because its the way you are raised yourself.
My parents where good, not saints, but good people. I know now i have been so blessed and i know i was loved. I think that makes the difference between my husband and me. Trust.

I remember now that i once saw my father in law snooping in our personal documents. I just thought hey, that is strange - after i told my husband. I thought maybe he was just passing and saw something that caught his attention? Trust?

I remember when i was young i once saw the movie "rosemary's baby". Well, that decribes perfectly the inlaw variety pack for me.

G1psy

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