I hate to say it, but it's true. The discussion over in F&F really hit me. I got used to men using me. I did not realize many women did too. Other than the female child rapist. I did used to have women cry on my shoulder but I apparently I wasn't good enough for anything else. Close friends that's okay. The rest, cry on someone else's shoulder. You chose an asshole to live with. That really is your problem not mine.

Hi phoenix you are probably right about nice guys finishing last but I have a question to ask. Who wants to race A holes
Have a great day Mike

Its funny , one of the guys in my MS group saw himself as the nice guy, good as a shoulder but not much more. So he asked this girl he was really interested in why she only thought of him as the "nice guy" . she said cuz he never expressed his feelings of anything more than being a friend.

so the not nice boys, i guess they just put it out there,
here's what i feel
here's what i want

hmmm

bet most of that could do that

So he finally got the gumption to ask her out. "its about time she said, i was wondering when that was going to happen",

its us who put us in the "nice guy" role, just us

I've been placing myself at the disposal to others and usually women in some problems on many occasions. It is like I have magnetic shoulders for them.
Even this last week and after I've had talk with T (on Friday) about all this I've acted in manner "Mr. Nice Guy". I went on trip with one girl-friend accompanying her instead of her husband who was ill and stayed at home ;-). And I've also catch cold and not feeling good at same time, can you believe that...
I suppose this role is in our heads and I agree with 1lifwnow it is us who put us in this role. Not others...
My issue in first place is how to draw some border by putting myself somewhere in picture (usually others are in first plan) and learning to say no. That is really connected to ability to express my feelings.

Pero

Not sure if nice guys finish last. I've known some pretty nice guys who did well for themselves.

I do, more and more, believe that we get what we seek. The question I always ask to people unhappy in their romantic relationships is not, why did you wind up in this bad relationship, but why have you sought this relationship or person? When someone can answer that, they can change their course to a healthier one.

So, why is it you are drawn to and are comfortable with these women who are not romantically attracted to you, but are tuning out those who might be attracted or potentially attracted?

Hey Dan you posted good question.
May I add something more?
My question would be: Why do we act as friends even we've felt some additional attraction to someone? Why is it hard to bring some feelings out at table following our needs in first place?
Well at least for me answer is connected to my passivity. Usually I've found difficult to reject others and thus making myself nice lunch for emotional vampires.
Actually I'm behaving very negatively to myself in not following my inner feelings and keeping them buried; by doing so I'm repeating my "victim" role no matter on circumstances...
For me is completely true that I get what I seek. I need to be more affirmative in every aspect of my life, there are plenty of opportunities for practice every day.
I would like once in my life to chose and not to be chosen !
Pero

I've been that guy too who let men use me and women use me to support them. I get it.

I think there are two types of "nice" guys. "Nice" in a false front sense, the type that "act" nice in hopes of somehow either getting their needs met or out of fear of being rejected/hurt for not being nice and domesticated and for having needs. The other type of "nice" guys are authentically nice people because they feel secure and good about themselves and are considerate of others while taking care of themselves. They are self-aware and don't feel guilt/confusion about being a human with needs and wants but don't see the reason in hurting others to try to live happily.

I put a lot of pressure on myself to be a nice guy, hoping to get rewarded for it rather than simply being nice for its own sake. That takes trust that my needs will be met. That's hard for me to do.

Nice also carries the idea of passivity with it for me. Nice doesn't mean a eunuch with no needs except fulfilling the needs of others. My ideas about nice have to change so I appreciate the chance to write.

pero,

I relate to passivity and emotional vampires. I've done the same and it has been very difficult to be affirmative/assertive with my attractions whether sexual or not.

Is it fear of rejection? fear of acceptance? Being the passive guy hoping that the right things would simply enter my life without risk has not paid off. I was writing yesterday about aggression and its some form of aggression/assertion that is coming to me that is letting me see that I am not a passive boy anymore and can act differently. I can see now that we can get out of this cycle but it requires untapped resources - and I think some sort of faith that things will work out.

Not to confuse the conversation here ... but ... define "nice guy".

I wonder if others (like myself) confused being nice with being a doormat. Certainly, if someone doesn't assert themselves, more assertive people will take the reigns and lead (and "win").

We survivors of abuse tend to hide in shame, secretly holding onto anger and resentment all while thinking we're being "nice". For me, I translated my restraint from expressing my rage as being "nice". I'm beginning to see now that the definition of "nice" is changing remarkably.

Assertive nice guys also get ahead in life and live happy productive lives. I know a few of them.

D

Well Magellan, as Phoenix started this discussion nice gay would mean: someone who is so friendly and "good" towards other people including possible lovers/partners that he has never crossed line of friendship. The thing is that such nice guy always stays nice guy (friend) and not boyfriend, lover or whatsoever - those roles are left for "bad" guys .
That is especially visible (for me) when some of girlfriends to whom I've been crushed rejected me (we stayed friends) and went further with some really bad guys -bad means disrespectful, selfish and manipulative. Anyway there was always shoulder from Mr. Nice Guy left for those girls after they stayed with some broken hearts...
I hope I've caught real meaning
Pero