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#388782 - 03/08/12 09:19 PM a
lbcali1978 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/12
Posts: 217
A


Edited by lbcali1978 (04/16/13 05:55 AM)
_________________________
They said

Come home

I said

I'm confused and alone

They said

We understand

I found out they don't

I'll walk the path exactly how I've always done it

Alone

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#388789 - 03/09/12 12:12 AM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: lbcali1978]
peroperic2009 Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/11
Posts: 3621
Loc: South-East Europe
Hi Ibcalli,
I presume that this will become very popular thread smile . At least recently there was huge debate on similar issue.
I don't consider my self as gay but nevertheless I have SSA (same sex attraction) and a lot of problems with my intimacy and sex life because of my experience. I can't say 100% if I'm not gay or I'm heterosexual, it is difficult for me to be so precious related to this topic. For me it was extremely helpful reading Ask the Sex Doc - part of discussion board dealing exactly with issues like your thread. I'm even considering when I'll be ready and after some deep thinking about myself to ask some question there.

As I know (and as I've read) it is not possible to change orientation because of CSA.

But we all become more or less confused (sexually) because of CSA and additionally "lost" with ourselves. That means that we use to act against true ourselves (reasons could be different) and our true orientation. We have many difficulties in seeing our confusion in this perspective.
Additionally we are just people with some limits regarding understanding ourselves and others as well. Our view on everything including sexuality is highly dependable on our cultural background and many other traits that we subconsciously apsorbed from our environment during our development. Because of that there are a lot confusions in communication relating this issue, some people (even me sometimes) are not sure what and why they are talking about sexuality. And sometimes it is it is difficult to distinguish real picture in background of such talks. I've found extremely important to understand many different things in first place to be able to discuss this matter.
For example I didn't see difference at all between sexual behavior and sexual orientation. In my "macho" culture there is no difference regarding this and actually that cultural impact additionally confused me. So I have many questions regarding myself: I've used to watch gay porn and sometimes acted as gay and because of my surrounding culture I sometimes taught that I must be gay ("one plus one must equal two"). But my feelings were completely different deep inside and that is confusion... This is just one short example. Question regarding orientation becomes multiple times complicated because of many other important factors which should be properly understood in first place.
With this I would like also to comment your line that: "some people say that CSA makes us like this".
Even in this short sentence there is huge cultural force speaking out (just my opinion) and maybe bringing huge cloud of confusion to be even ticker.
Anyway path to discover our real sexuality including orientation and all other "ingredients" is because of that extremely difficult task and hard work. We have to dig very deep inside. We have to be able to see trough many layers including this cultural one. Deep down, there is our true nature including sexual orientation buried.
I'm still confused with myself but at least I understand some causes of that confusion.
I wish this is helpful.

Pero



_________________________
My story

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#388806 - 03/09/12 06:17 AM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: peroperic2009]
Forexpreneur Offline


Registered: 02/08/12
Posts: 141
Loc: Uranus (hell no not yours. lol...
Hey Ward. Great post and one that many question that's for sure. I think alot of CSA survivors struggle with this to one degree or another.

I was abused by both males and females. No pun intended but I got it from both ends. Oh, who am I bullshiting, pun intended. wink I tried to be straight and it just doesn't work for me. I'm not really bi either but do have a little OSA (Opposite Sexual Attraction) however it is quite minor and doesn't happen very often.

Looking back on my childhood I certainly had far more sexual attraction to the same sex and acted on that far more than not.

I believe my CSA has affected my relationships in general, not my sexual orientation. I have looked at this in depth over the last 20+ years and that is where I stand at this time. I am really convinced that I would be gay whether there was CSA or not. At the end of the day, I have to be where I feel most comfortable, no matter if CSA is the cause or not.

Alex


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#388809 - 03/09/12 06:34 AM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: peroperic2009]
mac80 Offline


Registered: 03/15/11
Posts: 38
This is a really fascinating topic for me. I don't know the statistics or even if there is a decent study on the subject but in my experience, especially on this site there seems to be an extremely high correlation between same sex attraction and CSA among men. I think this is a question that scares some people somewhat. A lot of gay people place a lot of importance on the idea that they were born that way. This is understandable because being gay is not easy in our society, just about in any society! And the journey that people take on their way to coming out as gay is a difficult journey. After finding the inner strength and confidence to finally accept that they "just are that way", it is understandable that some people could be irritated when someone comes along and says "maybe you weren't born this way." But I've done a lot of research and it seems that nobody knows what makes someone homosexual, although there are correlations concerning genetics, birth order, and to no small extent CSA, that can make someone more likely to be gay, no one thing is the clincher. But the question that I find so interesting is:

What exactly is the mechanism whereby and disproportionate number of CSA victims develop same sex attractions? How does that work? I would really love to know and I don't think that it's impossible to know, I think psychologists could easily figure it out. It seems though, that they're afraid to, understandably. Imagine if they find that the SSA is a direct result of the CSA. Fox new would immediately be reporting that it turns out that homosexuality is a psychological disorder after all, you know? The way irresponsible people might react to the information could be quite damaging. Although I'm always of the philosophy that truth is more helpful than being in the dark.

I personally consider myself bisexual and I don't know if my SSA is a direct result of my CSA. I do know that I quite like myself the way I am and I wouldn't give up my SSA if I had the choice, even if it can be inconvenient.

I have no idea if it could be anything close to the truth, but there's an old theory that Sigmund Freud invented that went out of style with Alfred Kinsey that everyone is born bisexual and that early life experiences shape our sexuality over time. This theory explains my sexuality very well, and it seems reasonable, but it is rather out of fashion, and I have no idea whether it explains other people's sexuality as well as it explains mine. It is probably more likely that many, but not all people are born bisexual, and then many, but not all people end up on one side or another because of their life experiences. If only this topic were easy!

It can also be discomforting to think that our abuser helped to make us who we are today. It's a sad thing. We all wish that our abuser never entered our life and did what he/she did, but the fact is that they did shape our lives very much, and that many changes can not be undone, but even though our lives have been influenced by bad people, we are able to make the choices that make us good people.

Holy cow that was longwinded and started to get off topic, but I enjoyed writing it.


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#388813 - 03/09/12 07:20 AM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: mac80]
Mountainous Buck Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/15/09
Posts: 1626
Loc: Minnesota
Sexual abuse damages sexuality and intimacy.

It is an unwelcome intrusion upon the most person, innermost, and intimate part of us.

As a young kid abused by old males, sexual abuse tangled, jumbled, confused, messed with, and diverted my earliest sexual development as well as my relationships with other males.

Combined with other abusive stuff at home, it has taken me years to shed this and crawl out of the hole I dug for myself and to reclaim my own sexuality free from the ravages of the abuse.

I've learned to experience safe, healthy intimacy on many levels in recovery: with myself, my spouse, and with other men.

Don't know if that answers the question, but no one experience "makes" me-it might strongly break me for a while, but at some point there are tools for coping with the abuse and pain that are constructive rather than escapist. And that allows me to be who I always was meant to be.

_________________________
We have to take responsibility for what we're not responsible for.

“It doesn't matter where you've come from,
It matters where you go" Frank Turner

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#388822 - 03/09/12 09:50 AM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: Mountainous Buck]
F.A. Offline


Registered: 09/02/11
Posts: 229
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: Mountainous Buck
Sexual abuse damages sexuality and intimacy.

It is an unwelcome intrusion upon the most person, innermost, and intimate part of us.



Confusion is the other part of being sexually abused. Confusion about what true love and intimacy is and how to express caring and love without it starting sexually.

The “Kinsey Scale,” was developed by Alfred Kinsey and his colleagues Wardell Pomeroy and Clyde Martin in 1948, in order to account for research findings that showed people did not fit into neat and exclusive heterosexual or homosexual categories.

Interviewing people about their sexual histories, the Kinsey team found that, for many people, sexual behavior, thoughts and feelings towards the same or opposite sex was not always consistent across time. Though the majority of men and women reported being exclusively heterosexual, and a percentage reported exclusively homosexual behavior and attractions, many individuals disclosed behaviors or thoughts somewhere in between.

I think you love who you love when you love them.

_________________________
F.A.

To be sick is to be fragmented. To be healed is to become whole, and to become whole one must be in harmony with family, friends, and nature" -Navajo-
Blog: http://csafresno.blogspot.com
Facebook: http://tinyurl.com/CSAFresno
My Story: http://tinyurl.com/78upvvu

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#388826 - 03/09/12 10:23 AM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: F.A.]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY

i'll side with a firm "no."
sexual abuse doesn't make one gay or straight.

do other things in life lead one to say -- i don't know -- enjoy sex with another guy for example? very likely "yes," as i think most here can attest.

_________________________
Jeff

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#388830 - 03/09/12 10:36 AM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: westchesterguy]
Asmodeus Offline


Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 112
Loc: Vestavia, Alabama, USA
No matter how much it confuses us I don't see how it can change a persons orientation.

_________________________
I may not be perfect, but at least I'm not fake.

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#388835 - 03/09/12 11:27 AM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: Asmodeus]
peroperic2009 Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/11
Posts: 3621
Loc: South-East Europe
Relating to this thread I have to share one situation with all of you guys.
I have identical twin brother who went trough same abuse at same time with me by other boys when we were 5-6 years old (later actually we did some sexual things mutually to each other, actually my bro involved me more into all that mess).
Anyway my twin bro is now gay and I'm considering my self as straight.
Nevertheless it is interesting to think about reasons for such outcome (if we can say that this is final outcome - must add that I'm just started recovery and bro has done some years ago). I can't help myself not to think about that perspective. Orientation is very complex thing , what is main drive for its determination with so many factors involved?
Pero

_________________________
My story

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#389514 - 03/16/12 05:34 PM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: lbcali1978]
AL70 Offline


Registered: 03/15/12
Posts: 4
Hi,

I'm new to this forum. I can't say for sure if our CSA made us gay. For a while i thought it did. My mother who is also my abuser has a bizarre Mother/Goddess complex. My father is a total wimp. So i fit the classic profile of weak father, domineering mother. However i have found that sexuality is a mysterious thing and does fit into a pattern. All theories have grain of truth in them, but no theory have ever been proven.


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#389536 - 03/16/12 09:52 PM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: AL70]
Geeders Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 1901
Loc: Peterborough, Ontario, Canada
There is no doubt that abuse affects our behaviour in later life. No doubt at all. Does it make anyone gay, or straight for that matter? Not likely, but it does screw up things real good. As time goes on, you may be able to learn that labels like gay and straight are indeed just labels. As as a cool guy I know here taught me, labels are for cans. It doesn't matter a pinch who you choose to love. All that matters is that the person consents and that they love you back. What it looks like, or is labeled as by others is their problem, not yours.

Jim

_________________________
My name is Jim
WoR Mysthaven 2008, Level 2 WoR Alta 2009, Kirkridge 2010, 2011, Oprah 200 men

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#389613 - 03/17/12 05:34 PM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: lbcali1978]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1485
When my abuse began, I suspect I was bisexual with a strong interest in the opposite sex. The homosexual experiences I had at the whims of my abuser, however - as inappropriate as they were - charged through my nascent sexual circuitry. I was only a child; my sexual physiology was being stimulated and worked for the first time. The intensity of the experience far exceeded my ability to control or understand it. You might as well have put me in the driver's seat of a Porsche - I didn't know how to shift, and couldn't even reach the pedals. The car was driving me - I was just along for the ride.

I think it takes a leap of faith to suggest that such an intensely formative experience would not alter our sexuality even to a modest degree. I think the premise that one's sexual identity is immutable in the face of CSA is as fundamentally flawed as suggesting that being gay is a "choice." I suspect the former is spouted by those who never experienced CSA, while the latter is hypocrisy echoed by those who have never had to make such a choice.

Ward, I can't tell you enough how much your post here resonates with me, especially this:

Quote:
After the abuse I not only liked men sexually but wanted to be mistreated by men and felt (feel) the only way to have male friends and keep males happy with me and liking me; is to let them mistreat me and have sex with me.

It's an amazing paradox that the only power we knew was how to be good little "victims." I knew my abuser went "weak in the knees" for me, and that by acceding to his urges I could keep my baby sister safe as well as a lot of other little girls (click my name in my signature below if you need to know the dynamics on that).

In the final analysis, none of us has ANYTHING to apologize for. We are who we are. One of the greatest secrets I have learned is that when we truly accept ourselves, we find that others accept us as well. It really, really works.

Quote:
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
...Dr. Seuss

I've wasted far to much time trying to be who I thought "others" wanted me to be. I bought into the lie that accepting my sexuality meant I somehow endorsed what happened to me as a boy. I celebrate who I am now - who I had to become. I had no choice - and neither did you. That is how we learned to acclimate and survive, despite our abusers.

_________________________
Eirik




Click my pic to see why I'm here

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#389632 - 03/17/12 11:06 PM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: Chase Eric]
Forexpreneur Offline


Registered: 02/08/12
Posts: 141
Loc: Uranus (hell no not yours. lol...
Originally Posted By: Chase Eric

In the final analysis, none of us has ANYTHING to apologize for. We are who we are. One of the greatest secrets I have learned is that when we truly accept ourselves, we find that others accept us as well. It really, really works.



Thank you so much for writing this Eric. I am finally working on self acceptence and love how my life is already changing. Thank you for sharing this. wink

Alex


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#389730 - 03/18/12 09:31 PM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: Forexpreneur]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1485
Quote:
Thank you so much for writing this Eric. I am finally working on self acceptence and love how my life is already changing. Thank you for sharing this.

I am happy to hear that, Alex, and I hope you find it as true for you as I found it for me. It started with a challenge from my therapist. His assertion was that others tended to avoid getting to close to me ironically because of the strong "don't get too close to me" vibe I was giving off. The paradox was that my fears of rejection caused me to be defensive, which in turn ensured that others would react in kind. When you send off the vibe "don't get too close", people will subconsciously comply.

His challenge was that I live a week not hiding anything (although not necessarily volunteering anything). That's all it took. Ten years later, I am enjoying a lot of quality friendship and the deep anxiety I used to feel is largely a thing of the past. The friends I do have are true ones who know me well - both gay and straight.

We are so very good at hiding. For me, it was challenging to let that go because it meant survival at one point. But it offered me nothing, and ultimately was a burden worth shedding.

_________________________
Eirik




Click my pic to see why I'm here

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#389822 - 03/19/12 05:11 PM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: Chase Eric]
JohnJoseph Offline


Registered: 03/19/12
Posts: 3
Loc: Michigan
Eric, et al,

Thanks for this post/discussion. I have been dealing with my csa/ssa for so long.... so much of this discussion is freeing.

_________________________
Keeping faith!

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#389834 - 03/19/12 06:29 PM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: JohnJoseph]
petercorbett Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/27/08
Posts: 2452
Loc: TEXAS
Hi, my fraternal brothers.

A never ending emotional/mental question. Lots of posts over the years about it.
I invite you all to go into the archives and you'll see exactly the same emotional/mental feelings and answers.

As far this boy is concerned he was born gay.
My emotional, mental, physical & sexual abuse from my "mom," had nothing to do with me being gay.

Neither did my life long lover. I fell genuinely in love with him, at 8 yrs old. I had made an emotional & mental bonding with him.It has lasted for 65 years. Ralph had nothing to do with my sexual orientation.

I never was attracted to girls as a boy. Wanted nothing to do with them. In fact I had a sister 3 years younger than I. I couldn't tell you a thing about her. There was no emotional or mental connection at all.

I always was attracted to other boys, especially with my 3 boyhood friends. I had formed an emotional, mental, physical bond with them. We were together for the first 14 years of my life.

Then came my time in that Catholic orphanage/Home. It would be there where I experienced my first crush for another boy. We both were between 10-14 years old. We were both "different" from the other 40-50 boys. We both were ungainly, shy, loners & gay. We loved each other completely. I have wondered over these years what ever happened to him.

All my emotional & mental bonding was with males, from my youth right up to this day.

As an 73 year old boy/man i will tell you in all my years i have never made an emotional, mental or sexual bonding with any female.

No. neither CSA or SSA had anything to do with me being gay.

I offer my compassion, understanding for those of my fraternal brothers trying to come to terms with this issue.

Wishing you all well in healing.

"I will take that lost boys hand, and I will lead him from the depths of darkness, into the sunshine, forever into eternity." As he is me.

Pete..Irishmoose.

_________________________
Working Boys' Home 10-14 yrs old, grades 5-8. 1949-1953
____________________________________________________________
A very humble alumni of the WOR Dahlonega, GA.
May 15-17 2009, Alta, Sep. 2009. Sequoia, 2010.
Hope Springs, 2010.


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#390418 - 03/23/12 06:41 PM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: petercorbett]
Vadrian Offline


Registered: 09/10/11
Posts: 111
Loc: Pacific
No, I was targeted and scapegoated because I was gay, and didn't conform to gender stereotypes that are pushed onto boys in our society. My family was very homophobic and sexist-toward-males, so that spurred on my older brother to do this to me and ensured the neglect and condescension that I received in the aftermath.

I'm glad I'm gay, I don't want to be straight or 'macho,' and I don't think people that are are any more 'natural' or better than I am.

It really disturbs me how popular the ex-gay movement is at this website.



Edited by Vadrian (03/23/12 09:27 PM)

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#390440 - 03/23/12 08:56 PM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: Vadrian]
Avery46 Offline


Registered: 09/23/10
Posts: 1243
Loc: USA
Did the abuse cause sexual orientation confusion? - Yes




Edited by Avery46 (03/23/12 09:27 PM)
Edit Reason: took out wording as I could not delete what I wrote entirely
_________________________
aka DJsport

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#390441 - 03/23/12 08:56 PM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: westchesterguy]
1lifenow Offline


Registered: 03/07/11
Posts: 412
Loc: west coast
This is a thread that is more complicated than it appears cuz human sexuality is more complicated.

The key for you may be WHEN did you suffer CSA. You say you werent attracted to males b4 that, only females. Then after the desire to have sex with men. There is sort of a bell curve when most guys knew they were gay, some eary, most in the middle, arround the begining to end of puberty some later. So its hard to know if your sexuality was really firmly established. Hell many men on this site , WAY after puberty are still unsure or not convinced.

Dog genes have variable genes on only 3 sites making the vast array of sizes and shapes possible. Humans its multiple places and factors including epigenetics( changes in genes after birth) and psychological factors like imprinting and such. We know that imprinting is strong but not alone cuz it doesnt work when a really str8 environment produces a gay kid without having had CSA. Most of my gay friends now were not abused.

Then there is ultimately the question of DOES IT MATTER. We live today, so unless we can go back, there is really no point on wasting stomach space on this rumination.

I guess its an accademic exercise. I found an old text on human sexuality from the 1920's. Yes we gays are considered inferior but it says that no attempts to change the orientation have been successful. Many have a phase of experimentation in early years , just curiosity but for some, that persists. Lots of kids are curios but it does not "make them gay" just having experienced a gay of you show me urs. I still remember the little girl in the blue dress in grade 4 at recess. Nope , no imprinting there.

If you still not sure if its imprinting check out and watch, A clockwork orange. AH me drugies.

Trigger warning

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7fO3bzPeBQ

We are what we are. Now that i am finally here, it feels pretty damn good. Its like I can breath finally. Look in peoples eyes instead of the floor, leave the alcohol for social lubrication to others and just BE.

_________________________
The need for love lies at the very foundation of human existence. Dalai Lama

WoR Barrie 2011

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#390444 - 03/23/12 09:20 PM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: lbcali1978]
1lifenow Offline


Registered: 03/07/11
Posts: 412
Loc: west coast
From Joe Kort, with my own twist.

In the book The Sexual Healing Journey: A Guide for Survivors of Sexual Abuse, author and educator Wendy Maltz equates sexual abuse with a violation of a position of trust, power and protection, “an act on a child who lacks emotional & intellectual maturation.” It promotes sexual secrecy among its victims, so that even their own sexual drives, libido, orientation and desires become secrets to themselves.

The fundamental principle here is that you are reenacting your sexual abuse–not expressing a homosexual or bisexual identity.
There is a difference between sexual orientation, preferences, fantasy, and behavior.

This is the key, your orientation is what it is whether you act on it or not. The American Psychological Association defines sexual orientation as “an enduring pattern of emotional, romantic, affectional and/or sexual attractions to specific gender(s).” Sexual orientation is a constant and doesn’t change. This can be confusing when someone comes out of the closet. It looks as though the person changes orientation when in fact they are coming out to whom they always really were. They stop role-playing the wrong orientation.

SEXUAL PREFERENCES
These are sexual acts, positions and fantasies that someone prefers to have when engaging in sexual activity. They can take it or leave it and they enjoy it when they do it. Preferences can change over time and one can become more open or closed to certain sexual fantasies, behaviors and acts.

SEXUAL BEHAVIOR
Sexual Behavior is any behavior intended to pleasure oneself and/or one’s sexual partner. But the sexual behavior you engage in won’t necessarily reflect your orientation.

SEXUAL FANTASIES
Sexual Fantasies are any thoughts and ideas that arouse you. They can be erotic and/or romantic. They can be loving and they can be violent. Often they are politically incorrect and are things you would never want to do in reality but in fantasy they are a turn on. They can be about virtually anyone and anything—not just body parts, but clothing and shoes, and even natural objects such as trees and mountains—especially if they remind you of a previous erotic encounter. Memories of music and of aromas (perfume) can have a similar aphrodisiac effect.

Survivors of sexual abuse wonder if their sexual orientation, fantasies and behaviors resulted from the abuse, especially when it results in eroticizing what happened to them from the abuse as in your case here.
Actually eroticizing one’s sexual abuse and reenacting it as an adult is common. In a sense it turns trauma into triumph and victim into victor. In the sexual fantasy, you are controlling what happens unlike the abuse, which controlled you! In the fantasy, everyone is turned on where in the abuse you were turned off.
In other words, it is like your sexual psyche is returning to the scene of the crime to solve it and never actually does.

Its what i thought i was experiencing, just a phase or something that would change if i could just "get it". I was in a great marriage with a wonderful wife and kids. I remember buying books and videos on how to satisfy my wife. I never thot about me. I didnt matter.

I now realize I never could have changed. It was not me. I had never allowed myself to be OK with being me. No one ever tells us growing up that its going to be OK, Cuz it never was. That is part of what drives us to all to the crazy behavior that is then heaped on top of the CSA that only makes the guilt and shame worse. The first part of healing was understanding that, then the slow road to realization does not seem so scary.

Cheers

grant


Edited by 1lifenow (03/27/12 09:48 AM)
Edit Reason: tidiness
_________________________
The need for love lies at the very foundation of human existence. Dalai Lama

WoR Barrie 2011

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#393115 - 04/11/12 10:02 PM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: lbcali1978]
douglaswil Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/12
Posts: 35
Loc: Russellville, AR
This all is interesting.

When I was eight I was molested by my step-dad, it went on for two years. Ever since I have had a strong desire to be with other men sexually. This is fine with me, if I am born this way then ok, BUT I am married and been married eight years. I do not want to ruin my marriage to become "who I am".

It is so difficult to go through this and I live in a small podunk town in Arkansas, where I have NEVER spoken to someone else who has been abused. 1 in 6 and you would think I would meet someone, it is just no one talks about it. I talked about it at church one time and thought I was going to get kicked out.

In May I will be going to a WOR in GA, I cannot wait. I want to go from victim to survivor.
_________________________
Doug
www.dugslife.com
I am DOUG, not Egbert!

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#393128 - 04/11/12 11:43 PM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: lbcali1978]
Vadrian Offline


Registered: 09/10/11
Posts: 111
Loc: Pacific
The word 'gay' originally meant happy, so no I definitely wasn't made gay by my abuse; it turned my world into an unendingly sad place. Cuddling with my boyfriend on the other hand, that makes me totally gay.

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#394158 - 04/20/12 12:15 AM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: lbcali1978]
westsidej Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/04/09
Posts: 150
Loc: Minnesota
Please see newer post on page 4 of 4.

Merci


Edited by westsidej (08/07/12 07:30 PM)
Edit Reason: newer post
_________________________
My CSA story TRIGGERS!!!!

The hottest place in Hell is reserved for those who remain neutral in times of great moral conflict. Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

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#394184 - 04/20/12 01:35 AM * [Re: lbcali1978]
Smalltown80sBoy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 2217
*


Edited by Smalltown80sBoy (04/28/13 05:22 PM)

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#395933 - 05/03/12 09:53 AM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: lbcali1978]
Randy65 Offline


Registered: 04/14/12
Posts: 109
Loc: Jonesboro, Arkansas
Well, this is certainly something that people are curious about since I have gone public with my CSA. I have never questioned my sexuality, I know that I have always been gay. I know straight CSA survivors that are having serious issues with this. We all have admitted that sex is still very confusing for all of us. CSA just messes that up. I am very fortunate to have a partner for 12 years who loves me and had educated himself when the flashbacks started to happen at age 46. I video my journey because the meds I need now are so strong and interfere with my typing. My first two videos are below.

I love MS.ORG and love this forum and you all!
Randy
_________________________
My Story of CSA
http://youtu.be/EJIlKCRL_6M

My Story of CSA: The Day God Entered My Heart
http://youtu.be/vpCWEp6u9zM

My Story of CSA: "Flashbacks" (Trigger Caution)
http://youtu.be/xLd5Fe-MxVM



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#396105 - 05/04/12 09:23 PM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: lbcali1978]
GeorgeMartin Offline


Registered: 12/29/07
Posts: 192
Loc: USA
Do you not think that this type of question is implied by the offenders of sexual abuse, and society (the media) in general? It is a question I think that is used only to provide them with an excuse to minimize their own responsibility for the sexual abuse of children, then and now?! It was merely only 30 years ago child sexual abuse/child pornography was 'legal' in the USA. Only in the mid-1970's when the feminist movement got traction, did sexual abuse of children begin to get addressed in Congress, Oprah, etc. Homosexuality in and of itself was considered a mental illness and abnormal a mere 30 years ago. Still is, in some circles. In some sections of our society, there are some that would delightfully LOVE to see the LGBT corralled into trucks and relocated to distant concentration camps and or shot dead. They condemn women's rights to give or not give life, and yet the men-in-power have stock piles of N.B.C. (nuclear-biological-chemical weaponry) that would made God weep! Nothing is said in protest from the religious and or the naive of this society. But it is really easy to blame the faggots of the world. Let's fix the problem.... find a cure, environment or genetic... the flick of the switch.... let's bring back electro-therapy and the tongue suppressors say some today. They created the Ex-Gay Movement and the False Memory Syndrome Advocates for a reason, you know that. Silence and Doubt are the double barrel shotgun pointed at all us victims/survivors.

To ask "whether or the childhood sexual abuse of a child... perhaps causes a child to later become a homosexual" negates the responsibility of not only the offender, but also those who are creating the environment of an offender to offend in the first place to my thinking.

If homosexuals are predisposed to be homosexual because of environment (Dad was distant/Mother was 'too close' or over-bearing) or that there is an alleged genetic preposition for a child to be 'gay' .... then what?

Some corporate schmucks will come along, creating a pill that a Homosexual young person takes, because their parents want their child 'to be a normal, God Fearing Heterosexual, so that the said parents can have a grand-baby someday in the future? If it is a genetic trait or cell gone astray, and that an alleged genetic 'defect' caused poor depraved homo Johnny to have a limp wrist and dress in his sisters clothes and lipstick every Saturday night, well the corporate religious run society condoned entity, can just put an ad in Sunday's Paper, so Mom and Pop can can drive little ol' homo Johnny to the next County over, and fix his 'problem' without anyone every noticing on Monday? Just like his Auntie was driven to another State, to have a baby, that was mysteriously adopted out, via a Catholic Orphanage, when her Uncle 'knocked her up' and the family couldn't deal with the shame, so they blamed the 15 year old girl for not holding the dime with her knee's til she was married.

How many times have we all read in the local newspapers wherein a Catholic Priest is found to be guilty of molesting little boys in the pews, etc and the neighbor lady sitting in the nearby chair, responds with a retort, that the so & so MUST have been a homosexual and ought to be shot?

Society paints with the same brush across many spectrum's. A sexual offender is automatically defined in general society as a pedophile. A homosexual is considered one and or both today by many. If a victim is harmed sexually by another male, one and or both are 'labeled' as homosexual's, quietly and whispered behind closed doors. Therefore, in society, the thinking, twisted as it is, is that if we can just figure out what makes 'gay people' be gay, we can cure pedophilia/sexual abusers. I had one gentleman incredibly ask me one day, "aren't they one and the same, sexual child molesters and fags?"

Society automatically assumes that a man molesting a boy is a homosexual/pedophile. When in reality, not all offenders identify as gay. Some non-fixated or regressed sexual offenders are those who have an age appropriate sexual preference (usually heterosexual) but during times of stress, look to a child or children to satisfy their emotional needs through using sexual acts as power and control. Abuse is about ego, power and control of either the offender his or her self, since they feel they don't have control (so they have to control someone else weaker than themselves ... they feel a lack of power, so they gain that power by using their adult size and adult thinking/manipulative tatics to overpower the child/ grooming). The role of stress in an offender is viewed as a precipitation, which triggers the offense(s). It is the twisted psychological needs of the offender, not necessarily sexual, that motivates the offender(s) to harm a child sexually.

So with that said, when an offender tells a child, when they are curious or are themselves biologically aroused before, or during the abuse by the offender, that they 'wanted it' ... the offender is causing the child victim to internalize the blame, the sin, and the guilt for the criminal acts of the offender adult him or herself has done to the victim child.

Why wouldn't an offender and or society as a whole blame the victim by claiming that one, the other, or both victim and or offender are homosexuals, or that homosexuals are child molesters. Or that child molester's are homosexuals (male to male sexual abuse/assault)?

Therefore, when a victim and subsequent sexual abuse homosexual victim/survivor ponders whether their prior abuse caused them to be gay or not, it is easy to pick up what the offender and or society tries to imply to us 'about what is what it is they assume SHOULD be, according to their moral compasses'. Place this question, right along with the guilt, sin and blame the offenders and society in general places on us as their victims, squarely where it all belongs.....

In the hands of society in general in how they conduct themselves , individually and as a whole, and more importantly on the offenders that fail to pick up their own internal responsibilities towards the child victims of yesterday and today who will be the adults of tomorrow, when their victims were vulnerable children, whether they were gay or not!

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#396122 - 05/04/12 11:46 PM * [Re: GeorgeMartin]
Smalltown80sBoy Offline
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Registered: 03/25/12
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Edited by Smalltown80sBoy (04/28/13 05:42 PM)

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#396125 - 05/05/12 12:08 AM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: GeorgeMartin]
peroperic2009 Offline
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Registered: 10/09/11
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Loc: South-East Europe
I'm relating this question more to self reflection than to society issues. Many survivors were left confused (me too) after abuse. And I've been asking this kind of question to myself for very long time. So to me this is not related to some sociological spheres.
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#396152 - 05/05/12 01:11 AM * [Re: lbcali1978]
Smalltown80sBoy Offline
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Edited by Smalltown80sBoy (04/28/13 05:42 PM)

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#396160 - 05/05/12 02:27 AM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: lbcali1978]
peroperic2009 Offline
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Registered: 10/09/11
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Hey Gary, actually I've been written in first place some stuff but after couple of minutes I decided not to post it, now I'll type it again smile
I can give you other perspective and how is here...
First let me tell you that I'm coming from touching culture, meaning showing affection publicly is appreciated and we don't have set up some strong public moral frame on sexual issues. And especially towards kids we are very protective and affectionate. In same respect we tend to feel much care and compassion for victims of any abuse. Our cultural values are mainly connected to family, meaning that we all have some kind of barrier if some stuff is implied from outside. Especially if there is some false moral included.
So regarding broader picture, we consider "society" as a little bit immature to interfere into our personal matters, especially in some complex issues like intimacy (including sex, love and orientation). So we put some values high on scale and out of reach of some interfering from outside, meaning even that some open discussion is not welcomed there. This also means that impact of media in "valuable" maters to us is not strong, we actually don't like it.
For example it is outrageous even to think in case of sexual abuse that some victims "wanted it", regardless of sex, age, orientation or whatsoever of victims. We consider such thinking as too harmful towards victims (we are always trying to be protective). Same goes to homophobic stance in case of some abuse. And even we are conservative society (meaning sometimes hostile to "different" people like LGTB) there is never been raised issue like that in public in case of some abuse. Somehow we are very sensitive against any kind of violence and safety and well being of victims is always priority.
But in some cases like gay parade there is always open discussion, is it appropriate, is it too offensive for some conservative and religious people or whatsoever. And in one part of country (the most conservative and right oriented) we have had even violence and clash against gay parade. At other side, in same city couple of years ago people have found pedophile at public place taking pictures of children and almost killed him and police actually saved him.
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#396164 - 05/05/12 03:01 AM * [Re: lbcali1978]
Smalltown80sBoy Offline
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Edited by Smalltown80sBoy (04/28/13 05:42 PM)

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#396253 - 05/06/12 01:23 AM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: Smalltown80sBoy]
peroperic2009 Offline
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Registered: 10/09/11
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Loc: South-East Europe
I hope that we will find way to fight that social stigma, I'm not sure that something like that would not arise in future also here.
You are always welcomed here Gary smile!
Pero
_________________________
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#397382 - 05/16/12 03:46 PM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: lbcali1978]
bodyguard8367 Offline
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Edited by bodyguard8367 (02/26/14 05:16 PM)
Edit Reason: SILENCED

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#406136 - 08/07/12 07:27 PM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: lbcali1978]
westsidej Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/04/09
Posts: 150
Loc: Minnesota
My CSA brothers,

Well, as peropic said, this is a very popular topic. I always enjoy adding my perspective to this while reading those of my brothers, too.

For me, I can't remember having any SSA before my abuse started and actually took several of my father's playboys and other skin mags to look at in our basement and with my friends, too.

I was abused by one of my female babysitters just before my homosexual csa started and loved the experience even though it was abuse. It seemed totally natural to do the things she asked me to do to her.

After my first homosexual CSA, I didn't feel right but of course, I was just violated and it was a horrible experience from the location to what he did to me (again, this is all spelled out in my story below)

Then, when my parent's drug dealing friend started abusing me, just like the first guy who abused me, he knew right where to touch me to get an arousal and it was also in my own home instead of a very dark room.

After hundreds of encounters, how could I not become conditioned to and desire homosexual relations?

So, for me and I see many others, our CSA did affect our sexuality. Just as I am sure that many of us CSA survivors were born gay and being abused by men or other boys may have only confirmed this sexual proclivity.

Even before but for sure since getting help for my abuse, I have returned to being mostly heterosexual and could never see myself in a gay relationship but don't care if others chose that for themselves.

I would caution against anyone KNOWING what causes or doesn't cause homosexuality since it appears that both nature and nurture play a role. Look at Ancient Greece and Rome for proof. Are you telling me that all of a sudden, homosexuality disappeared from Western Civilization after the fall of these two societies that actively practiced and in the case of the Greeks, highly encouraged homosexuality in certain circumstances?


One thing that I believe all of us can agree on is that it's not so much why we have ssa but that we acknowledge and more importantly, accept it as a natural part of our sexuality.

I'm at this point and it's been extremely liberating to both my heterosexual action with my wife and with any lingering guilt in my mind for having homosexual thoughts and flashbacks. Thankfully, for me the guilt's gone for all practical purposes.

Your additional thoughts.

Your brother,

Jay

_________________________
My CSA story TRIGGERS!!!!

The hottest place in Hell is reserved for those who remain neutral in times of great moral conflict. Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

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#406186 - 08/08/12 04:30 AM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: lbcali1978]
Ivo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 267
Loc: Germany
This is interesting question and I asked it to myself many times few years ago. In that time I did some research and found some articles and studies about development of sexual orientation – it stated that there are still many open issues and unknown facts about it, since it is pretty complex subject that can be viewed from many different layers and angles. So in short- conclusion was that sexual orientation is developing or forming pretty early so that when is already formed we are still not aware of it (if I remember well it was somewhere up to 2 -3 years of life).
Another question is why some people are straight, bi and gay – there is no clear answer. In some cases there were some kind of genetic predispositions ie. there are cases of families that have for example much more gay members that can be explained only by genetics. There are some studies that claim that in some cases mother’s genetic is influencing orientation of their sons etc., in general there is no clear and unique answer since many factors have to be included…

On the other hand human sexuality is highly individual and is basically defined in our brain which is one of the most complex organs ever developed in nature – basically there are no two persons with identical sexuality which is very interesting when you think about it.

CSA of course makes things much more complicated because it makes confusion on basic physical, emotional, sexual, psychological aspects of person.

For me was important to understand myself on basic level – the fact is that I am much more sexually attracted to guys on permanent level; all other things that are coming from CSA (compulsory behavior, conflicting sexual desires, no borders, fears, hyper sexuality, problems with orgasm, erection, sleeping etc. list go on lol …) are not so important because this is something that is very stable and very deeply rooted in my identity and is not changeable. And when I accepted this it felt actually good.
Why am I gay – well I do not know to be honest, what is important to me is that I feel very good who I am and could not imagine to be different.



Edited by Ivo (08/08/12 04:32 AM)

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#406196 - 08/08/12 10:47 AM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: lbcali1978]
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
As bisexual but straight identified (sorry I know that's a mouthful) I have often wondered whether my bisexual tendencies come naturally or if they are a product of sexual abuse. As a young boy, like between 10 and 12, I found myself attracted almost equally to both girls and boys my own age but when I became a teenager my attraction toward males waned until after I was sexually abused, at which time I began to sexually experiment with males, even though my main attraction was to females and still is. The thing is there is a certain detachment and lack of connection to my sexual encounters with other men that doesn't exist when I am with women. Often I am living out my abuse through anonymous sex with men so this is definately abuse related, but that said I still enjoy the sex so its got me quite confused as to whether this is healthy or not. Please understand that I feel no shame in being bisexual. If I could convince myself that it is 100% naturally who I am that would be fine. I just don't like the thought of my adult sexuality being influenced by bad things that were done to me when I was young is all. It doesn't make me feel free as a human being.
_________________________
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.


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#406201 - 08/08/12 12:30 PM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: lbcali1978]
bodyguard8367 Offline
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Edited by bodyguard8367 (02/26/14 07:49 PM)
Edit Reason: SILENCED

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#406241 - 08/08/12 09:47 PM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: bodyguard8367]
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
The thing is when I envision myself in a relationship it is always with a woman. My desire to be with men is occasional and is always purely sexual. Like I mentioned in my first post, if I were certain that such bisexual tendencies were natural to me and not in some way connected to my past abuse I doubt I would be questioning it. It is not the thought of having an attraction to men that bothers me but that it may be the result of my abuse history. Whatever my sexuality is I'm OK with so long as it's natural and healthy.
_________________________
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.


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#406281 - 08/09/12 09:14 AM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: lbcali1978]
lapchinj Offline
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Loc: New York
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Edited by lapchinj (03/17/13 10:38 AM)
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#406403 - 08/10/12 02:25 PM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: lbcali1978]
bodyguard8367 Offline
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Edited by bodyguard8367 (02/26/14 07:51 PM)
Edit Reason: SILENCED

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#406427 - 08/10/12 07:44 PM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: lbcali1978]
lapchinj Offline
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Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1248
Loc: New York
Peace,Rainbows & Healing


Edited by lapchinj (03/17/13 10:38 AM)
_________________________
Stick around, It will get better....

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#406895 - 08/15/12 12:29 PM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: lbcali1978]
bodyguard8367 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/16/12
Posts: 1159
Loc: ""
Jeff, Thanks.

I am a "work in progress". Yep I do get therapy, I do use a perscription medication every day for depression, and yes I have been active in seeking recovery. I use a 12 step group and read books on development and self help and other things. It is a slow process, although I am thankful that the changes do last.

Wish you luck as well....Geoff

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#407035 - 08/16/12 11:12 PM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: lbcali1978]
lapchinj Offline
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Edited by lapchinj (03/17/13 10:38 AM)
_________________________
Stick around, It will get better....

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#408193 - 08/28/12 07:47 AM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: lbcali1978]
Blessedcurse Offline


Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 93
Well...

Being bisexual I would like to say, that I believe that most of the components of our personality can be affected by experiences in childhood. Like how much risk we are willing to take, how much arguing we can stand in a relationship before leaving, our choise of career and so on. And also sexual orientation and preferences. But just like the other stuff in our personalities are affected by so many things you can't separate on factor, I believe it is the same with the sexuality part.

You can rarely say "I need a lot of risktaking because I had a boring childhood". Because the risktaking trait is caused by many different things and you can't be sure of one cause.

Then of course, the risk taking trait will not be examined like this until it is percieved as a problem. Then you ask yourself why do I need these risks, trying to understand to change. But you could just as easily ask yourself why am I so craven, if that would be the problem.

So my input in this is, who decided that homosexuality/bisexuality is the problem that must have been caused? It could just as well have been heterosexuality that was caused by the abuse? But since heterosexuality is the norm it is not percieved as a problem to be hetero.

Just saying. Maybe we are discussing this from the wrong angle.

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#409019 - 09/05/12 09:44 AM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: lbcali1978]
bodyguard8367 Offline
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Edited by bodyguard8367 (02/26/14 08:25 PM)
Edit Reason: SILENCED

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#412384 - 10/07/12 03:45 AM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: lbcali1978]
Edward2 Offline


Registered: 09/30/12
Posts: 17
Loc: Maryland
It has been amazingly helpful to read all the threads on this topic. I have been dealing with much of the confusion that has been written about here. I've ben in therapy for the past 6 months and my therapist insists that sexual orientation is biological but did admit when I confronted him last week that CSA can influence orientation. So I am in a state of suspended uncertainty. And sometimes the uncertainty is just too much to bear.......it's too much to bear because it is related to the abuse that I experienced at 8 and the fact that I have fond memories of being held and being "special." As with several other guys who have written here, I was not like the other boys -- lousy at baseball, a good boy in school who did well and disliked the rough and tumble of the neighborhood. I was called "faggot" every day for three years. My father tried to toughen me up but that didn't work so I was accepted by the 18 year old guy across the street. All I had to do in return was suck and be sucked. It seemed pleasurable and wonderful at the time. And then it stopped and I put it in a box and didn't think much about. I'm married, have a grown son, everything seems normal but nothing is normal [whatever normal is]. I'm in turmoil but appear okay on the surface. The turmoil is like an emotional abyss. Suicide has seemed like a reasonable alternative. I'm on heavy anti-depressants. Life goes on every day. I go grocery shopping and do all the things that a good husband is supposed to do -- except in the sexual arena. And when I look at gay porn on the Internet all I feel is longing, confusion and shame. Not sure where to go from here......

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#412387 - 10/07/12 07:15 AM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: Edward2]
peroperic2009 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/11
Posts: 3621
Loc: South-East Europe
Hey Ed,
as you already now question on orientation is very complex and covered with many layers, don't push yourself, sometimes it looks like impossible to get some straight answer there. Please take it easy, it seems that you are in some vulnerable and shaky place.
My CSA didn't make my gay, but made me confused, and like imprinted, I guess same sex attraction would always be there in background. I never acted with men nor I would, I don't care for it in real life but in my fantasy world there many things are happening and that is confusion.
Hang on man, don't be hard on yourself, you are doing right steps in your healing. Some time is needed for things to settle. Share with us as much as possible, let all that out.
Take care of yourself.

Pero
_________________________
My story

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#412673 - 10/10/12 03:15 AM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: lbcali1978]
1lifenow Offline


Registered: 03/07/11
Posts: 412
Loc: west coast
re Edward2

its not easy when your inner desire does not match your outer life. Its like a cognitive disonance, a bizarro world. Each has his own path we must respect and allow to progress as it will.
For me, i just spent the last weekend waking up in the arms of a man, not even sex, just hugging, tenderness, and the feeling that my default was not faulty. Being with a man was the most natural thing in the world. He said to me, grant in ur arms it feels like "home".
At thanksgiving( i am in canada). my sister in law asked why i didnt bring my man, my ex wife who was so angry when i first told her , two years ago tomorrow said. he sounds great , you should have brought him to dinner. He had other plans.

I am no longer on drugs, dont drink more than 2, dont frequent porn although the occassional look is fun, dont do bathhouses or have anonymous sex, dont disrespect myself any longer. No magic formula, just finally had the courage and the fatigue to finally say enough, I AM ENTITLED TO BE ME.

My teen boys love me, my sporty nephews dont bat an eye. THey accept me, cuz i finally do ,despite whatever effect the CSA had on me. More than the repression of your sexuality Edward it denies you to be the person you can be. My buddy from my WoR is bi, he is happy cuz its in the open. I do not believe in any way in denying yourself who you are. YOU need to know you are OK. If you are happy in your marriage stay, it sounds like you're not. DO not stay, people change, so can you. My ex wife looks amazing, she is truly happy finally no longer feeling alone sleeping next to a man not capable of being there more than in body.

Take a stand, be yourself, you deserve it, whoever and whatever you are, But make no mistake

Your orientation is who you truly are. CSA can not influence it only cloud it. You can have a hetero lifestyle if you're gay, but you will be unhappy. You can have a gay lifestyle if your str8 ( one of the guys i met at the WoR was that guy). but you will only be happy when your inner heart and little boy match what you do and live on the outside. I am no longer sad, confused or depressed. The shame is gone, i never thought it would. I only have regret i did not act sooner, but being a child survivor i did not have the tools.
And so that is your quest, find the tools , get the help but ultimately do not ignore because of expectation, or religion or family pressure or a sense of fucked up duty. This is your life, now is the time, EDWARD - it is OK to be you.

MAKE IT SO

hugz with true honesty

grant


Edited by 1lifenow (10/10/12 08:07 AM)
_________________________
The need for love lies at the very foundation of human existence. Dalai Lama

WoR Barrie 2011

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#412688 - 10/10/12 10:44 AM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: lbcali1978]
Blue1966 Offline


Registered: 10/08/12
Posts: 83
Loc: USA
Did my CSA make me gay? Don't know, it's possible it was a factor given the duration and the fact the awhile I knew it was wrong, I did enjoy a lot of the sensations, or at least my body did. Hey can't change physiology. Yeah a hard pill to swallow back then but now - if the CSA made me gay, well that's one good thing that came out of it.

Also let me understand an empathize with other survivors better, made me a stronger person and, gave me a heck of a reason to be the best person I can because, let's face it most people are not basically good.

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#412745 - 10/11/12 12:43 AM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: lbcali1978]
mogigo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1331
Loc: Colorado
Just going to add. My CSA was a woman, I do have some fantasies about that experience. I'm now an out gay/bi man. I've been with my partner/husband for 5 years now. I fell in love and my life has never been better. I love my husband with every ounce of my soul, but yes, I can get sexually aroused by the experience I had.

The only difference in my experience, and other's. Mine was socially acceptable. Way too much thinking going on.

Stay strong
Mike
_________________________
Thriving

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#412765 - 10/11/12 07:54 AM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: lbcali1978]
lapchinj Offline
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Edited by lapchinj (03/17/13 10:38 AM)
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#412945 - 10/12/12 09:17 PM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: lbcali1978]
Edward2 Offline


Registered: 09/30/12
Posts: 17
Loc: Maryland
Thanks for your excellent feedback; very much appreciated. Here is what I fear: that I will end my marriage and then find that gay relationships are fleeting and that I am not at an age where I would be attractive to a potential partner. I have this overwhelming sense that I will get sick and die in isolation, that I will regret everything that I gave up and wish that I could recapture the life that I have now. I do understand on an intellectual level that this doesn't have to happen but I don't think that I have the emotional strength to make the kind of changes that I would like to have happen. So the bottom line: is it better to have a B minus life and at least know that it will probably not get worse than B minus or strive for an A but fear that everything could end in an F......I have such envy for young men who can seemingly be who they are now without the huge shame, guilt and self-hatred that would have happened to me if I made this decision at a young age. So I remain suspended in mid-air and I wonder if all of this was due at least partially due to the CSA that I experienced between ages 8 and 11 or if I would feel this way had that not occurred or if that really matters. I have been immobilized, confused and sick of all of this for several years. I do consider just giving up but then I continue on, existing, doing well on the surface, regretting that time passes. Always regretting.
Ed

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#412946 - 10/12/12 09:55 PM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: lbcali1978]
Blue1966 Offline


Registered: 10/08/12
Posts: 83
Loc: USA
I don't think the reasons really matter. If you can best imagine growing old, and sharing your future with a man and, it's men you find attractive and arousing, the does the why matter?

What matter is that you accept your sexuality and are happy and satisfied living that sexuality.

As for dating, finding Mr. right, sure it's a smaller pool that for straight guys, but that doesn't mean he isn't out there, and we are really good at finding other gay men, and good at making friends with them. smile

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#412956 - 10/13/12 12:06 AM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: lbcali1978]
Edward2 Offline


Registered: 09/30/12
Posts: 17
Loc: Maryland
I appreciate what you are saying Blue. But the reality is that I can never accept my sexuality and be happy and satisfied with that. I wish that I could but it seems unimaginable. I think it is too late for me. I can't tell you how sad it is to write that but that's just the way it is. The idea of being "happy and satisfied" is something that I've never had and am convinced will never happen. Is that due to CSA? Probably not. I may be trying to convince myself that it is because that can provide me with some kind of explanation. I feel that I made my choice so many years ago -- at a time when it seemed to me that anyone who was gay was mentally ill -- and now I have to live with it. I have lived a facade and will probably keep living that way. I truly do fear rejection, loneliness and just a different kind of self-hatred. But self-hatred, despite the fact that I've been seeing a good therapist and have all the insight in the world, is my single most dominant emotion........Ed

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#412960 - 10/13/12 12:19 AM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: lbcali1978]
Blue1966 Offline


Registered: 10/08/12
Posts: 83
Loc: USA
Edward, so many have done that, some I know of not coming out until they were in their 50's or 60's. I understand why some choose to remain in the closet, to live the lie as you are doing. Family, friends, fiances, all of plays into those decisions.

No one can force you out, no one can convince you that gay is okay. You would have to do that yourself. It's never too late to learn self acceptance but, you have to want to learn it before anyone can begin to guide you toward that.

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#412967 - 10/13/12 02:27 AM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: lbcali1978]
mogigo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1331
Loc: Colorado
I hear you Ed, I was 38 on my the date that I knew what I needed to be happy. I would just say that who I'm attracted to had very little to do with my coming out.

I fell in love with the most beautiful person I have ever met, I knew instantly that I had just met my soul mate. If this has happened for you Ed, then I would not change a thing, regardless of sexual attraction, if it hasn't then I would never, ever give up.

Stay strong
Mike
_________________________
Thriving

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#418270 - 12/05/12 01:12 PM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: lbcali1978]
panda Offline


Registered: 12/05/12
Posts: 16
Loc: Michigan
I don't think so.

I am transsexual and I was assaulted when I was still presenting as a girl. The memory was completely repressed until very recently. There are some symptoms that apply to both transsexual people and sexual assault survivors, like hating your genitals. But after just one day here, I realized something.

I had spoken to many female survivors of sexual assault. I felt sympathy for them, but I did not feel as if I had been in their shoes despite the fact that I had a similar experience to them. After I remembered the assault, I talked to a woman who survived sexual assault when she was a child. Even after knowing that we had similar experiences, it still did not feel like we went through the same thing.

And then I came here. And I instantly felt connected to the people here - and it was because they were men like me.

There may have been some anatomical differences in how I was assaulted vs most of the men here, but what I realized is that male survivors react to our assaults differently from women, and that we recover differently.

I guess this was a tangent, starting off with my take on how assault doesn't change your internal identity, and ended up with me babbling about how my I relate my unchanged gender identity to my assault.

PS: I am bisexual and I don't think it has anything to do with my assault. The notion that my sexual orientation and my assault are related just seems ludicrous to me.

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#418426 - 12/07/12 08:25 AM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: lbcali1978]
SoccerStar Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 918
Loc: New York
This topic kills me. It is by far the thing on which I cry the most in T sessions. I've discussed it on the boards before too.

I dissociated my CSA and never saw it as a consequential part of my life until it took control of what was left of my life about 7 weeks ago. Growing up I was always attracted to both sexes more or less equally. I was ashamed and disgusted by this and tried to suppress the male-oriented thoughts as best I could. After a decade of misery and personal growth I accepted myself as bi and everything became so much better, clearer, free-er. Then I came here and for the first time ever learned of "CSA --> SSA" and it just felt like all that work was for nothing and maybe I had been / still was straight but with a CSA "asterisk".

Some people on page 4 of this thread spoke right into my soul: it's not the attraction itself that is bad, once youve accepted it - rather it's the idea that it might not have been your real self. "It makes me feel less free as a human being," one of them said. Yes, yes, yes.


A few other thoughts:

The very concept and terms for "heterosexual" and "homosexual" are only about 120 years old and are not universal across all cultures. Pre-20th century Western culture homosexuality was considered something men DID, not what they WERE, and it was understood that men could want or do these things while not defining themselves that way and still living societally acceptable mainstream lives by the standards of the time. And in parts of Asia, Pacific island cultures, the Middle East, and cultures of antiquity like Greece and Rome - there were quite different understandings of how normal, acceptable, and in some cases even mandatory and enforced (Pacific islands and central Asia) same-sex encounters were. I tend to think that with a cultural "blank slate" most men would get horny / lonely / curious / affectionate / grateful enough to occasionally indulge in same sex encounters while primarily seeking out women - but then that's what I WOULD say, now isn't it?

Looking in the animal kingdom only backs up that view - one species after another where same-sex couplings take place in the context of still pursuing opposite sex mates. The lifestyles of our close relative the bonobo is near legendary, I assume I don't need to elaborate.

This is in no way meant to delegitimize the feelings or orientations of those who identify as primarily or entirely gay. I hope it didn't come across that way and if it did I apologize. There are plenty of things unique about humanity and there's no reason that can't be one of them.

Brains are complicated things, not intelligently designed but adapted for whatever worked best at the time. And human consciousness, awareness, identity, choice, fantasies, are just a flimsy tissue overlaying a consuming reproductive drive that is over 600 million years older than that. The two don't always see eye to eye and the big head does NOT always control the little head. Plenty of guys here had their bodies betray them and could likely attest to the falsehood of that particular fortune cookie slogan. If the big head controlled the little head we'd be extinct. Every cave or village where the women were ugly - there'd be no one left. The Black Death killed a third of Europe, people buried their entire families, entire generations, entire villages... and a year or two later the surviving women would all be pregnant, and it wasn't because everybody felt safe or healed or "over it." There are some things you can't think around because no one will really understand them.

CSA takes that absurdly complicated instinct-to-individual relationship and makes it even more awkward and weird.

Thanks, perps. Wouldn't be the same without you. :p


Edited by SoccerStar (12/07/12 09:04 AM)
_________________________
My story

"Don't think it hasn't been a little slice of Heaven just because it hasn't!" --Bugs Bunny

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#419347 - 12/17/12 07:06 AM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: lbcali1978]
jfransiscus Offline


Registered: 12/17/12
Posts: 4
Loc: sydney,australia
hi, first of all i would think yes the 'abuse' does plays some part in it. not that its a proven fact. but somehow, admittedly i did enjoy the abuse itself and the fact that the abuser was a him and iam a gay( been out now to my friends and some of my families for 2 years now) and i had thought about it recently of how it happened and why would it happened in the first place.

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#421422 - 01/07/13 08:16 PM Re: Did our CSA make us gay???? [Re: SoccerStar]
Luftraumm Offline


Registered: 01/06/13
Posts: 17
Loc: Brasil
Originally Posted By: SoccerStar
Thanks, perps. Wouldn't be the same without you. :p


Why not complicate life a little bit more, right?

Actualy all you said above feels pretty acurate, the whole biseaxuality vs SSA is so complex, and full of differences...

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