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#387207 - 02/25/12 11:47 AM Re: Bill Donohue on FOX [Re: JustScott]
Treehugger75 Offline


Registered: 02/08/12
Posts: 158
Loc: Ontario Canada
"What accounts for the relentless attacks on the Church? Let's face it: if its teachings were pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage and pro-women clergy, the dogs would have been called off years ago."

I believe thats why you're still being HOUNDED!

_________________________
I will never ALWAYS be right, I wasn't wrong, I am whats left.

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#387208 - 02/25/12 11:48 AM Re: Bill Donohue on FOX [Re: JustScott]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
in my view.... look, this is the MS forum, right?

so, yeah, wtf, i think we have every right to drive an agenda now and then.

not that i'm saying robbie did. but all in all, the premise of how the catholic church does everything (seemingly so) in its power to minimize what has happened and continues so to do - is beyond disgraceful and it is counter to christianity.

or... we wouldn't have stories such as this:
http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/Cathol...-139129294.html

nonetheless, i also agree with that herowanabee is saying.

it is important to understand and review the data. indeed only a fringe group of priests have molested boys and girls. thank god only a fringe. however that fringe group had its own support -- the larger and bigger catholic secret. and, in my view, bill donohue is part of that support, he empowers that support. how many priests stayed mum when they found out their pal, or lover, was molesting kids?

no one can answer that hero -- and someone should. someone must.

my theory... the gay priests have been held hostage by the pedophile priests over the years through simple blackmail.

break that cycle, by embracing good gay men and women, and i think this issue will be resolved.

_________________________
Jeff

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#387212 - 02/25/12 12:30 PM Re: Bill Donohue on FOX [Re: Still]
herowannabe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/01/11
Posts: 386
Loc: USA
“at least a thousand priests…have been removed and remain out of public ministry because of unproven accusations.”


The Catholic church has paid out millions of dollars to victims- some whose cases were substantiated, some whose cases could NOT be substantiated.

In the meantime, a HUGE proactive education program has been implemented, whereby children AND any adult that has any interaction with kids (priests, nuns, lay teachers, sports coaches, Sunday school teachers, office workers, janitors, etc.) MUST complete. I have completed this program, and can attest to the sincerity of the church's intention to protect the most precious of God's creation: children.

Where is this massive cover up? The male survivors who've come forth with accusations of abuse have been not only believed, but the church did provide the proof that these boys were likely abused just as they claim by opening the records that track an individual priest's record of being sent for treatment, reassigned, etc. Surely, you know that without the church's cooperation many of the allegations may have been thrown out??? But in the vast majority of cases, the church has accepted responsibility and has made financial restitution as well as putting in place safeguards to make children safer.

Have you ever seen a fender bender involving a public transportation bus? Ironically, a bus carrying three people suddenly has pedestrians jumping onto the bus before the police arrive in order to take part of the windfall financial settlement that's sure to come.

Positively, without question, many, many children have been abused by members of all kinds of organizations, including the Catholic church, which it has acknowledged! But how many priests have been unfairly and falsely accused of a crime that carries the horrific, life-altering stigma of sexually abusing a child?

While we care for the survivors, we must keep our heads firmly attached and be personally responsible to see that justice, not lynchings, prevail.

How does an organization, which has...

- clearly demonstrated empathy for victims, has implemented safety/awareness programs to protect children

- has proactively (though unfairly) removed priests from service for simply being accused

- has paid out millions of dollars in restitution

- has offered public apology for its ignorance in handling abusive priests (though it handled them exactly as was prescribed by society at that time!)

...protect itself when the tide turns from justice to lynching?

Who is protecting innocent priests from being publicly declared "guilty" until proven innocent?

How does the church protect itself from relentless demonization so that its members do not in the end lose their faith and the very place of worship they need and love?

Please. Instead of participating in the unproductive hate, please offer suggestions for what more the church can do??? Please.

Thank you for the respectful dialog. It's appreciated! Truly!

herowannabe

_________________________


For I know the plans I have made for you. Plans to give you a future and a hope. Jeremiah 29:11


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#387217 - 02/25/12 01:01 PM Re: Bill Donohue on FOX [Re: herowannabe]
KMCINVA Offline
Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1753
I was, not really sure what I am now, a Catholic. But as I heal I have trouble comprehending the hypocrisy of the church towards the abuse. Their apologies are vague and superficial. Recently Egan seemed to retract prior apologies. I am from the Bridgeport Diocese and when I learn records were destroyed, priest moved from parish to parish, and insincere recognition of the abuse that destroyed so many lives. I can cry when I think of myself and the abuse and to learn what they did to hide it. How many others were hurt. I have guilt that maybe not only I but my younger brother may have been abused--his life was always shattered, no focus, unhappy, distrustful--he lived a very unhappy life and died young. I will never know but will be haunted by this, and if I had said something would nothing have happened to others. So I can not sympathize with the church or its bishop--own what happened and stop dancing around it.

It is not hate that bothers us, it is the lack of compassion and understanding. Are there people trying to collect--probably--but I think each and every victim would be far happier to have the life they deserved and not destroyed by those pompous bastards. I know not all are guilty and there are priests who understand--in my SNAP group we have a priest in the group--he was a victim and still became a priest. But as years past like many of us, he could no longer hide it. He received a substantial settlement from his Diocese in MA. He has said--they could have all the filthy money back if he could have his life back. Money does not give life to the victims but helps with therapy but the memories and pain is never lost. I would love to hear the church acknowledge the effects on the victim and acknowledge their lives were never to be whole.



Edited by KMCINVA (02/25/12 01:06 PM)

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#387221 - 02/25/12 01:06 PM Re: Bill Donohue on FOX [Re: Still]
herowannabe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/01/11
Posts: 386
Loc: USA
Quote:
...it is important to understand and review the data. indeed only a fringe group of priests have molested boys and girls. thank god only a fringe. however that fringe group had its own support -- the larger and bigger catholic secret. and, in my view, bill donohue is part of that support, he empowers that support. how many priests stayed mum when they found out their pal, or lover, was molesting kids?

no one can answer that hero -- and someone should. someone must.


I can't answer that, Jeff. I can't answer it with any more clarity than any survivor can answer why their own family members, neighbors, teachers, physicians, etc., didn't DO something, didn't believe the child, didn't recognize the long-term damage done to the child.

Why didn't the abused child's parents call the police? Why didn't they get the abused child professional counseling? Why didn't they alert the media? Why didn't they sue the church? BECAUSE NONE OF US "GOT IT". We were all ignorant of information we now have.

In years past- and still to this day- our society thinks pedophiles can be "fixed". It's what many have referred to as the "dirty little secret". It's a horrific state of mind that not only individuals are in, but society as a whole.

In his article, Bill Donohue stated correctly, that the church followed the at-the-time professional advice and sent accused priests away to treatment facilities, then removed them from the defiled parish to another for a clean, healthy, all-better-now start. Though the practice, it is now understood, was ineffective and oftentimes resulted in continued abuse, the church did take action and did invest financially in an attempt to "fix" the offender. By moving the priest to another parish, it was hoped the abused child would better "forget" the abuse. No one understood the long-term help that child would need. We find ourselves on this very board to learn what was not known just a decade ago.

There was no malice in the church's actions: it was what professionals prescribed. There was no mandatory reporting to legal entities. Because of the scandal, for which the church has become the poster boy, society is waking up. However, the pendulum has swung from secrecy and fatally flawed methods of action to vilifying and painting an entire organization as evil. The pendulum will balance out, but only if clear heads prevail.



Quote:
my theory... the gay priests have been held hostage by the pedophile priests over the years through simple blackmail.

break that cycle, by embracing good gay men and women, and i think this issue will be resolved.


I'm not sure I'm reading your words as they are intended, so forgive me if I've misunderstood your point, Jeff. The church DOES embrace good gay men and women! There is NO sin in being created homosexual! ALL are God's creation and ALL are respected and loved. I don't know how to "prove" that to non-Catholics, but it is what the Catholic church believes and teaches and that can be verified by calling a local Catholic diocese and asking to speak to a priest or anyone on staff who is knowledgeable about church teachings (not everyone on the payroll is Catholic).

It breaks my heart that this myth is perpetuated because it keeps many gay souls separated from faith...needlessly.

Again, thank you for the dialog. It is a gift (though frustrating) to be allowed to disuss this hot button topic. I hope I'm lighting a candle as opposed to starting a fire that will burn someone.

God Bless!
herowannabe

_________________________


For I know the plans I have made for you. Plans to give you a future and a hope. Jeremiah 29:11


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#387223 - 02/25/12 01:21 PM Re: Bill Donohue on FOX [Re: Still]
herowannabe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/01/11
Posts: 386
Loc: USA
(((KCMINVA)))

Here's just one such apology, straight from the Pope, where the buck stops:

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedi...ireland_en.html

_________________________


For I know the plans I have made for you. Plans to give you a future and a hope. Jeremiah 29:11


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#387366 - 02/26/12 11:18 AM Re: Bill Donohue on FOX [Re: herowannabe]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
hero, there are multiple issues and i agree it is complicated. for the hundreds here touched in one way or another by the catholic church, we likely have hundreds of different stories and examples. i would hope some are positive.

just from my childhood this is how the priest issue played out. i don't recall silence.

one young, very good looking priest in his mid-20s, whom we all liked in the next parish, secretly was seeing a 19 yr old woman in the next county. when rumors began and his pastor confronted him about this in 1977... he left the priesthood. and by golly that "former priest" is still married to that woman and they have three grown kids! in my view - totally kosher all around. no harm done.

also, in my view, the church lost. they lost a true leader, a genuine man, someone who -- you know what i think -- would have exposed pedophile priests even though at the time it was forbidden to speak against fellow priests. but, simply because the church won't permit priests to have a life and marry - he moved on.

but do you know what else we know today -- 30yrs on? that same pastor harbored another priest, who replaced the shameful young gun, who was molesting teen boys in dana point. pastor now dead and the priest escaped to mexico in 1990s when the charges surfaced, where i understand he was promoted to a mnsgr.

second issue. my own priest. i liked him, he was a good man, i thought - until he begged and pleaded with my parents to not press charges against the ped who molested me and my sister. my parents were stunned by that request, but ignored the advice.

later, come to find out, the priest was hooked up with yet another priest in a nearby parish who was molesting kids. and it was that priest who was in partnership with my ped. so, it makes sense why our priest called for forgiving and forgetting. he couldn't risk news getting out that he was gay....he was on the career path of bishop. but that did not happen. he is now dead.

i have met a dozen or so catholics in my lifetime who were involved with the priest abuse scandal. none of those parents sat still. i was collaborating with chicago's v.o.c.a.l. (the linkup) in mid90s. they could be s.n.a.p. now, not sure to be honest. why would these orgs need to exist anymore...rather than grow in numbers?

i have read comments from this sitting pope. its true he seems genuinely caring about the victims he has met.

but nothing he does seems to fix or address this issue appropriately:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/24/catholic-church-gay-priests-exposed

and

http://news.yahoo.com/catholic-church-sf-disinvites-gay-clergy-204657248.html

but leave it to a nun!!! :-) a good lady and sister jeannine gramick to fight that church against all odds.

why on earth isn't that church full of sister jeannines?

http://ncronline.org/blogs/grace-margins/decade-after-defiance-jeannine-gramick-hopeful-ever

new ways ministry
http://www.newwaysministry.org




_________________________
Jeff

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#387382 - 02/26/12 02:08 PM Re: Bill Donohue on FOX [Re: westchesterguy]
herowannabe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/01/11
Posts: 386
Loc: USA
Hi Jeff-

I guess I'm a little confused by your post as I'm not quite sure how it applies to the sex abuse crisis within the church. I'm sorry that I'm likely not seeing your message as you intend it!

What my heart speaks to me as I read it and the articles you've shared is:

- The priesthood is reserved for men who choose celibacy. The reason for this is based on Paul's letter to the Corinthians (1 Cor 7:32-35), and in Jesus' example of celibacy.

No priest is surprised by this rule five years after his ordination; it is well-known and is a matter of the highest discernment during the man's priestly education prior to his ordination.

Do all priest's succeed in chastity? Do all non-priests??? Of course not. However, that failure is not a verdict of the rule of celibacy; it's a failure of the man who is a sinner just like the rest of us.

My husband is not a priest and was welcomed to my body anytime the spirit moved us. Yet, he went outside of the sacramental requirements of our holy state of marriage, just like a priest may go outside of the sacramental requirements of his holy state of priesthood. Should the requirement of sexual faithfulness in marriage be thrown out as "unsuccessful" since so many fail in upholding it? I think not. The same is true for celibacy.

For those men and women who are NOT called to priesthood as their call to ministry does not also call them to celibacy, the church has many ministries available: deacons, missionaries, lectors, Eucharistic ministers, teachers, etc. The truth is, that all human beings are called to ministry- we're just not all called to celibacy.

________________________________________________________________

- The church can't make it any clearer that it does NOT condemn homosexuality. That is obvious as your second article highlights the large, active, publicly visible gay community within the San Francisco church, Most Holy Redeemer.

Likewise the church does NOT condemn my husband for having been an adulterer. Also likewise, the church does NOT condemn a priest who leaves the priesthood because of the rule of celibacy.

What the church condemns are ACTS outside of a sacramental union. Those sins can be forgiven with a repentant soul; however, the rules can't be changed to accomodate one's desire for his sinful behavior to be justified and validated (ala King Henry XIII).

If the gay community at MHR church is, in fact, a community that visibly and publicly strengthens each other in their celibacy, and affirms each other's worth in God's eyes and in the eyes of His church, then that is a holy and beautiful thing.

However, if that gay community comes together visibly and publicly to drive their agenda- for the church to disregard God's commands and the bible's instruction in order to accomodate their personal preferences and/or to relieve them of the restraints God allows in their lives, then it is not good.

There will never be a resolution to this because God's word is His word and the bible says His word is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Sorry married men/women, you can't f*** around on your spouse. God's word disallows it.

Sorry ordained priests, you can't f*** around or take a spouse because you are already married to the Church. God's word disallows it.

Sorry homosexual brothers and sister, you can't f*** around or take a spouse because for some reason known only to God, you were created as a special sign to the world. You've been annointed to be a special sign of acceptance of God's word- even when it is excruciatingly hard. Because it IS so hard, your faithful service to His word will be all the more powerful.

________________________________________________________________

- Sr. Jeannine states: “When we started this work, only 20 percent of Catholics believed in equal rights for gays and lesbians,” Gramick said. “Now it’s over 73 percent. . . . The church is moving.”

No, good Sister, the church is not moving, society is moving. What exactly is it that she claims 73% of Catholics agree with? Exactly what "equality" is she referring to?

As an American Catholic, I would rail against civil laws that treat another with injustice due to his/her sexual orientation. Civil society should follow the laws of liberty and justice for all. Jesus taught, Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, but give to God what is God's. Clearly, there's a huge difference in God's laws/justice and society's laws/justice.

The Church is bound to follow God's laws. It is not our right as a society to demand God's laws be changed to accomodate society's notions of right/wrong, fair/unfair. Nor can our personal notions demand that change.

________________________________________________________________

- The article continues about Sister Jeanine Gramick: "So, these days, when Gramick is asked what the church believes, she always tells the person what the majority of the members of the Catholic community believe, rather than the teachings of the hierarchy".

Danger. Danger. Danger. Hitler's society a believed the Jews were a pox on the face of humanity and deserved to be removed. Years later, society was horrified to learn that Hitler's "removal" of the Jews was actually extermination.

There is grave danger in allowing personal convictions to sway in the breeze. That doesn't mean Catholics should be stupid sheep, but in matters of spirituality, interpretation of>
_________________________


For I know the plans I have made for you. Plans to give you a future and a hope. Jeremiah 29:11


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#387392 - 02/26/12 04:36 PM Re: Bill Donohue on FOX [Re: herowannabe]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY

terry i understand what you typed.

i do not understand how a celibate priest can molest a boy and the solution is to sneer and conclude that "oh, well that priest needs to go to confession for engaging a 17yr old boy."

i do not understand when men (generic gender) decide they speak for and act fully in proxy to god. i would understand if men acted as servants of god and left the judgement up to him...and only him. this is how i believe the episcopal church has approached the topic.

we aren't talking about murder or abortion or insider trading.

we are talking about two people who want to spend their lives together in the eyes of god. if two gays wish to marry in the church and do so living fully committed and monogamously through marriage of 50 years, that those men acting as servants shall embrace the love between two males as they would a male/female and let god "give those men" hell upon death (or not). for it isn't up to us to "judge love" here....i remember the bible said that too! lol.

crime - different story. gays aren't criminals for falling in love -- in my view.

i do understand celibacy and i do understand committed relationship of man and woman through marriage. i personally agree that sex before marriage is wrong and should be absolutely frowned upon by society. can't explain that to a survivor though... that is the wicked and most cruel part of all. we lost our choice to be virgins. we lost our choice to experience many "firsts."

speaking from the gay p.o.v. i would encourage my gay son (if i had one) to wait, wait, wait and be very picky on his choice for a lifetime partner. i don't care he is gay... i care he is happy and meets a partner who worshiped him. lol.

i also understand the "concept" of god creating gays for some unknown reason so they can live out their 70 years without ever experiencing a kiss or the emotion of love of another living soul that is taken for granted by males towards females. so, another cruel joke for a priest to molest a young gay guy who follows that teaching? a 12 or 16 yr old young gay gets kissed, fondled, penetrated by the parish priest (whom the kid might even find attractive or likable) and that same kid is forever told he must remain celibate because god said gays must be. meanwhile that priest keeps on going....

thought god wasn't cruel. but, then again what did god gain while sitting up there and watching the kid get raped without tossing a lightening strike down on the priest? yea, blasphemous likely, but that point is still open for debate.

now, lots of this comes down to personal interpretation. not one of us alive today - no matter how smart or accurate he thinks he knows language from years pre-zero b.c. to 200 a.d. the bible as it stands today is only "in theory" what we assume was meant to be at the time of writing. i mean come on folks... we used to call a "fag" a cigarette. are any of you going to sit here and tell me a book written 2,000 years ago has every single word translated into 19th/20th century language along with cultural nuances?

:-) sorry, you'd lose that battle. i wouldn't believe you. just as the english language today will be long forgotten and irrelevant in year 5,000. that is how things evolve in communication.

_________________________
Jeff

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