I am with GH. You have altered my perspective in your posts - you put it all out there and my husband should be writing you a thank you note today

Hi Jim-

Thanks from the bottom of my heart for your posts today. I understand how your disturbing evening last night would sour your original post. Likewise, I hope you understand that the disturbing things flying around in my head soured my post, too!

You've said so many poignant things today, but I'll just comment on those in which I'd like to at least attempt some help/perspective for you.

Here goes...



I'm not so sure there is anything that is minor for any of us, survivor or supporter, in the midst of these storms. I think that the triggering event or words may be minor, but the underlying hurt is MAJOR. The lashing out in minor things is evidence that something deeper is begging to be addressed.

I may be completely wrong, but it seems that your wife may be a bit stuck in her hurt/recovery.

In a previous post, you mentioned that like me, your wife views porn as infidelity. Therefore, I couldn't help but be a little alarmed by your sentence:



I may have misunderstood you, but if you are still being sucked into using porn, in your wife's eyes, you are still cheating; you are still being unfaithful to her.

Whether she knows you're watching porn or not, she KNOWS there is deception between you. So long as she feels you are not being honest, she will be increasingly wounded. So long as she feels she's still precariously hovering around another pool of devistation, her anger, resentment and fear will ooze out at you.



I differ with you here.

It would be lovely to not feel being lied to isn't about ME. But the truth is, my husband lied to me because I was ME and he didn't want to lose ME. So, to keep me, he disrespected me with lies and deceit.

That...is...not...love!

That...is...not...respect!

That is self-preservation- HIS self-preservation at the expense of my own! Therefore, it has everything to do with me.

I don't know how anyone can feel good about themselves while being mired in a life-long, neverending game of charades. In order to love yourself, you have to do loving things for others. This builds self-esteem and a recognition of your personal values, which is proof of the worth of a human being.

The most loving thing you can do for the most important person in your life- your spouse- is to give the gift of honesty. With the gift of my husband's honesty, I can make good choices for the life God gave ME (God didn't give my husband my life to manipulate!). My husband's love of me and respect for me is proven by his trust in me- trust to share the truth with me. THAT is how I know I am loved and respected; because I am trusted, and my trustworthiness is rewarded with his honesty.

Likewise, if he can't be honest and open with me, I know I am not trusted, and therefore, I am not loved and respected, but am only "needed". That has EVERYTHING to do with ME. And it has everything to do with your wife, too.



I can't speak for all supporters, but I know that many of us felt the OPPOSITE of hate when learning of our survivor's abuse. We aren't heartless bitches! We know no human being- most of all a child/adolescent- can be vilified for having been a victim! We mourn and grieve for that little boy who grew into the man we've yoked our lives to! We want him healed! Desperately. But those of us who have been betrayed are dealing with his ADULT actions, which we lovingly put aside in order to support the CHILD who was damaged.

If we look at you like you're from outerspace, it may be:

* Because it hurts and is mind-blowing to know that your fear is based on lack of trust in US...and we didn't do anything to justify your distrust of us!

* Because you are more ashamed of what happened to you as a child than you are ashamed of what you did and didn't do as an adult spouse. It is beyond confusing for us.

* Because the things you reveal about your CSA sometimes seem like a smokescreen or an excuse for your betrayals. It is hard for us to separate the boy who was hurt from the man who hurt us.

* Because there are such parallels to what you suffered as a child and how you betrayed us as an adult that it is startling and takes some time to digest. Personally, I am FREAKED out at how my husband acted out his abuse. Parts of my chin are still stuck to the floor.

* Because as we listen, we are hearing for the first time something you've known about. Maybe you've just remembered it, but you still knew before us! Some things can't be heard without the enormity of the words being heard taking over the muscles of the human face.

Jim- I've told you before that I think you are one of the greatest guys on this entire board. Your kindness toward all, your encouraging words and your eagerness to help us all are genuine. I so badly don't want to say anything to hurt you!

I will immediately offer a complete and humble apology for anything I'm off-base on. But if I'm even just a little right about anything, I hope my words will help. God knows I send them with love and care and a desire to be of help.

Sending you a big old hug!
herowannabe

Jim-

I forgot to tell you that I love your sweet soul! Please know that!!!

herowannabe

JIM SAYS: "Until then, though, I really do hope you understand that some of what we do or don’t do has nothing to do with you. It’s not because we don’t love or respect you. If there is a lack of either, it’s probably ourselves that we neither love nor respect, not you."

My husband says the same thing as Jim - he says that his infidelity and lies were a lack of love and respect for himself more than anything else. And I like you Hero struggle with not taking this personally. But I am starting to get it.

NO ONE MAKES SOMEONE ELSE BE FAITHFUL. So his infidelity is not because I failed. And honestly, his infidelity is a reflection of him, not me. So of course it is LOW SELF ESTEEM, because someone with relatively normal self esteem would not enter into a relationship they could not be proud of - a relationship they would want to hide and lie about. THAT IS SELF DISRESPECT - not disrespect of me.

(I am trying out some new thought control... how's it look??)

Oh, wow, thanks for saying that Esposa. That's very kind of you.

Hero, you need to change your name to Heroalreadyam instead of Herowannabe.

To the extent that I can, I understand what you are saying and there is a great deal of truth in what you say.

I don't discount anything that you say. I think, in the end, though, that there will be things that I cannot explain fully enough for you to be able to "wrap your head" around. I think that there are things that you will never be able to fully explain to me so I can wrap my head around them.

What conversations like this do is help us both to understand one another's view point a little better. In doing so, hopefully, it helps us relate and serve our spouses and families better. The sad truth is that I just can't tell how I am suppose to react and what I am supposed to believe a lot of the time.

I wonder if my perp thought about what he was doing when he did it. No, I don't. He didn't care.

Anyway, thanks for your response and your kindness. I think the world of you and all the supporters here.

Jim

YES! YES!! YES!!!
Jim - you said it so clearly and I can relate to (nearly) EVERYTHING you said. THANK YOU for speaking up - you are a voice for many.

AND - everyone else who participated in this dialog - THANK YOU ALL for sharing somuch so openly!!! I can understand BOTH sides of the dilemna because of the interaction.

This is absolutely the best explanation I could hope for. I see it as a gift from all of you and a provision from God.

Yesterday my wife and i had a joint therapy session and some of the same trust and forgiveness issues came up on both our parts. I will show her this entire conversation because it may make more sense when it is read instead of heard and when it's others' voices instead of ours.

This is exactly what i hope for and often receive from the forums - understanding and wisdom and insight and resources to build with.

i'll post more later about our specific history, but for now - everyone, PLEASE, keep the fow going....

Very Thankfully,
Lee

WHEW!!!

Thanks guys. I have been sick all evening in fear that I offended you and other survivors. Thank you for not tearing me apart; thank you for allowing me the freedom to dialog honestly.

I, too, feel this is extremely helpful! Men ARE from Mars, Women from Venus, but by these kind of "to-the-gnat's-ass" conversations, our worlds get closer, and many hurts and perceived hurts are soothed.

I adore you and thank you again!
herowannabe
P.S. heroalreadyam is reserved for survivors like YOU!

Why woul you be bashed for a good post?

I can't imagine being on either side of this torturous situation, the child whose trust in the world has been betrayed and stolen or the spouse whose trust in her partner's fidelity has been betrayed. Thank you for sharing your discomfort, suffering and hope.

This thread is a gift. This has to be what the visionaries of the "WWW" had in mind -- open, frank, adult conversations about topics of shared interest where differing views are respected.

Jim, Gretta, Dar, Esposa, herowannabe, GoodHope, and Lee: You are models of openness, love, candour and respectfulness.