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#386912 - 02/23/12 09:37 AM Can you just have a bad year?
Esposa Offline
F&F Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 707
Loc: NJ
In another post, Avery said something that stuck with me:

Honesty, integrity, love and compassion are central to a marriage.


I had a marriage like this, for 15 years. And then he came unglued and destroyed every single word on this list, in every way possible. Destroying my trust in the process, destroying my trust in him.

But now he is in recovery and he is offering those things to me again, but I don't trust his ability to provide them. It's not that I don't trust him, I simply am afraid of a person who could create so much incredible destruction and then stop one day and say "OK, cool, where were we?"

Can you just have a bad year?

(Spouses dealing with trust, here's a great article: http://www.beyondintractability.org/node/2608)


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#386922 - 02/23/12 11:23 AM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: Esposa]
newground Offline
Chatroom Moderator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 10/11/11
Posts: 770
Loc: michigan
esposa,
I feel really torn by your post. from the top and at least on the surface it seems that way He betrayed,broke trust,that He did all the things and in a real sense he did. thing that tears is this. the thing that drives, what ever that is, makes me crazy. It is so much more than I am able to describe driving me personally to the point that I would harm myself to make it stop.I dont know how far that would go I am so thankful that always It finally stopped after a little pain. If that noise,those voices,images,thoughts whatever do finally quiet and rest then I get to rest and I am great then. If not then I am raging,acting out, anxious,all that there is.but that does not let me off the hook.because I still did it whatever it maybe.yea I think it is possible to have a bad year. but I also completely understand when you hesitate. just thought I might try to help with a little perspective I just thank God that for me It Hasn't gone that far cause I might be willing to harm me...I could handle hurting her.

_________________________
Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering whale; to the last I grapple with thee; from hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee. let me then tow to pieces, while still chasing thee, thou damned whale! Thus, I give up the spear!"
Herman Melville

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#386938 - 02/23/12 03:17 PM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: Esposa]
G1psy Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 13
Loc: Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Esposa
In another post, Avery said something that stuck with me:
Honesty, integrity, love and compassion are central to a marriage.


I had a marriage like this, for 15 years. And then he came unglued and destroyed every single word on this list, in every way possible. Destroying my trust in the process, destroying my trust in him.


Hi Esposa,
I am in the exactly the same spot. I don't know about you, but i think i have never been in a marriage based on honesty, integrity, love and compassion.

Its just not what i thought it was, never was.
My perception was wrong.
A castle build on quicksand where these things that i hold dear in my life, don't seem to matter at all. Or only to me?

Now when trust is shattered so badly, its hard to trust again.
But i don't think there is any other way but to make yourself vulnerable again. Scary stuff!
Its so hard to live with someone you don't trust.
I couldn't do this for years and years to come.

I heard a wise man say, " a wife/partner in this situation, (like ours) is in fact desperate to trust again." (Jonathan Marsh, founder of recoverynation.com)

I want to trust my husband again. But that doesn't mean i have to be a fool either.
He has to show me he's for real.
In the meantime, i keep my gut feeling working and listen when it tries to tell me something.

A great website btw i found:
Peter Fox

It has tons of great insides on all of this stuff. Also a lot about intimate betrayal and how to overcome it. Shame i can't afford this guy since my husband and i both have some intimate betrayal issues to work on!

Good luck to you both,

Gipsy


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#386955 - 02/23/12 06:39 PM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: Esposa]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: Esposa
....but I don't trust his ability to provide them. It's not that I don't trust him, I simply am afraid of a person who could create so much incredible destruction and then stop one day and say "OK, cool, where were we?"


esposa, fyi, i'm a survivor. i do not blame you at all for feeling that way. i think the onus is 100% on him to prove to you that he is worthy of a second chance. if it doesn't meet your satisfaction - that is your call too. such is life and that has nothing at all to do with a bad year or two.

_________________________
Jeff

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#386958 - 02/23/12 06:55 PM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: westchesterguy]
Esposa Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 707
Loc: NJ
The thing that is crazy is this quicksand idea...I want a firm foundation now - I want a whole person. While I settled for less before, I will not now.

It looked like a duck, and sounded like a duck, but it wasn't a duck and now it says it could be a duck, but does it even know what a duck truly is - or is it just going to go back to looking and sounding like a duck? (Even I am laughing at myself right now)

And GIPSY - you are SOOOOO right.... I so desperately want to trust again. In fact, sometimes I panic because I want my trust to return NOW, TODAY. And unfortunately it doesn't work that way frown

Jeff - I get that he has to prove himself now, but the thing about this trust problem is that I don't even trust myself to know if he is proving himself.... aghghghhggh


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#386962 - 02/23/12 07:11 PM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: Esposa]
herowannabe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/01/11
Posts: 386
Loc: USA
Quote:
I heard a wise man say, " a wife/partner in this situation, (like ours) is in fact desperate to trust again." (Jonathan Marsh, founder of recoverynation.com)



Yyyyyes!!!! And Jonathan Marsh ought to know, huh, Gipsy?! Recover Nation saved my sanity. I'm so glad you mentioned it, as I've begun to sound like the Avon lady of RN! smile

And Peter Fox's stuff is great, too!

However, all the reading and support work in the world doesn't help to calm that deep current of fear that burdens us as we stand at the abyss of trusting him, or backing far, far away.

Be gentle with yourself, sweet soul! Afterall, if we'd have been broadsided by a truck while driving through a green light, oblivious to the danger barreling toward us, when BAM! everything changed, we'd be damned leery when crossing intersections again. We might even refuse to drive a car again. Who on EARTH can expect any betrayed spouse to feel secure and safe in the midst of such insanity?

You can't trust your beloved now because you can't trust your beloved now! Period. This isn't necessarily a permanent state. But you'll only know by living through it. Watch his efforts and his sincerity in recovery. Then, do it again tomorrow. And the next day. And the day after that. With consistency on HIS part, you will learn to trust again, or will at least learn to practice a "functional" level of trust.

I am not far enough yet to know if I, or any of us, will ever be as trusting as we were before this; I think we may have to settle for being forever changed/damaged in that respect. That is a deeply depressing thought for me. I truly mourn that security and blissful confidence in my beloved. Even more so, I miss the feeling that I could trust my own judgements and perceptions. It's been a sort of death for me.

I simply don't know how the trust and security thing comes about for us, but sure do welcome the input of supporters who've trudged this path longer than I.

Godspeed!
herowannabe

P.S. To me, having a bad year is losing a job, an illness, having moles destroy the front yard, having the furnace go out in January, etc. Our spouses' acting out i.e. affairs, porn addiction, compulsive masturbation, hiring prostitutes, alcoholism/drug abuse, giving us STDs or worse, ect, constitutes a bad HEAD... IMHO.



Edited by herowannabe (02/23/12 07:15 PM)
_________________________


For I know the plans I have made for you. Plans to give you a future and a hope. Jeremiah 29:11


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#386966 - 02/23/12 07:29 PM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: Esposa]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: Esposa
.....I want a firm foundation now...


right. and you deserve one esposa -- of course we all do. smile i do. every guy and girl here does... if he is willing to work for it.

i find the "nuclear fall out" from childhood abuse so devastating - so unnecessary and painful. so the rapist wins in that his victim ultimately never reaches full potential in career, in marriage, in child rearing, etc. and i have a feeling that basic sympathy for abuse becomes more important than being responsible for our own happiness.

maybe it is worth defining what "trust" means for you. idk i'm not there in your house with you two. maybe he needs to tell you every time he has some urge to act out. again, idk. what are your rules? what is important to make you feel sane and comfortable moving forward? in my view, that is just as important as his desire and/or work in the recovery process.

_________________________
Jeff

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#386978 - 02/23/12 09:04 PM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: westchesterguy]
Esposa Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 707
Loc: NJ
Ahhh Jeff... what does trust mean for me....

You can't read an infidelity book without seeing "Your marriage has a great chance to be better than before..." And this is one of those things - defining trust, defining expectations. Those are the things that make a better relationship, if you can survive the pain and do what hero says and stick with it, day by day.

We take trust for granted. Until you are burned, you don't even really realize that it is the glue that binds. And maybe this is true for those that violate trust too, until you burn someone you love, you simply didn't know what you had. That unspoken intangible...

Trust for me means that I can count on the fact that your words and actions match, that they are congruent. Pipe dream?


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#386987 - 02/23/12 10:09 PM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: Esposa]
GoodHope Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 416
This is the longest I've gone since may 22 without melting down. I should believe my husband (as far as I can tell he's been truthful) but I choose to act as though I believe him even though I don't. He is wise to me (he "gets" me) and says "you are worried about my out of town business trip". It is what it is. This is our life now. Seeds of doubt waiting to be watered. It's not what I want for myself but loyalty is. Our husbands are sick. If mine is trying to get well, then I'll honor my sickness and in health vow. I wish I trusted him. I wish I could believe him. I wish I knew who this liar is that morphed into what I see now.

_________________________
Wife of a survivor

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#387015 - 02/24/12 01:15 AM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: GoodHope]
Jim1104 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/16/11
Posts: 410
Loc: Louisiana, USA
Esposa. Your husband did not just have a bad year. He had many bad years. Unfortunately, you were married to him during some of those many bad years and he lied to and betrayed you. It would be insane on your part to just chalk things up to having a bad year and think he can just magically change into someone he never was.

If, and only if, you wish to hear more of what I have to say on the subject, I will post it in another thread called, What Now. What I say may upset those of you who have been betrayed. Take it for what it's worth.

Good luck. You both have much to overcome and you both deserve to know healing.



Edited by Jim1104 (02/24/12 01:43 AM)
Edit Reason: Wanted to keep controversy off this thread.
_________________________
Jim
Male/USA

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#387047 - 02/24/12 08:07 AM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: Jim1104]
Esposa Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 707
Loc: NJ
Originally Posted By: Jim1104
It would be insane on your part to just chalk things up to having a bad year and think he can just magically change into someone he never was.


My point exactly... I can't except this as just a bad year.


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#387051 - 02/24/12 08:51 AM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: Jim1104]
Treehugger75 Offline


Registered: 02/08/12
Posts: 158
Loc: Ontario Canada
I too am a recovering liar, trying to mend the broken hearts and bridges, I smashed and burned in my neglect of my self. You are fully in control of where you lay your trust. I commend you for be open and honest about your difficulty finding trust in someone whom you love but dont seem to understand anymore. If your spouse is anything like me he appreciates you more than he can express right now. That has nothing to do with trusting you. I'm still having trouble trusting my own thoughts. Maybe thats what you are picking up on. His lack of trust in himself. Congrats again on trying whatever you can to make both of you better while still maitaining a hold on the relationship, however tenuous that hold is at the moment as you both heal together, the better your relationship will be after the healing is done.
Keep on Smiling smile

_________________________
I will never ALWAYS be right, I wasn't wrong, I am whats left.

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#387094 - 02/24/12 04:49 PM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: Esposa]
whome Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/07/11
Posts: 1734
Loc: Johannesburg South Africa
Bad year!!!!! I've pretty much had a bad life. But one thing I am struggling with is reconciling with my wife.

It has been a pretty rough time, and she like yourself is not wanting to trust me. She does not want to open herself up to being hurt yet again.

I on the other hand don't want to be entirely honest with her in fear of her getting upset at something that she thinks might happen as opposed to actually having happened.
This has just happened, I lied about something stupid, and she saw it as me cheating on her again.
So I can see how you are hurting and reluctant to open up, I can only presume that he is being honest. Tough spot you are in and I really don't envy you this decision.

My only reality is my own, and I know that I really want to make right with my wife. I want to make up for all the hurt and sorrow that I have caused.

My prayer for you is that your man wants to do the same for you.

Heal well
Love yourself
Martin

_________________________
Matrix Men South Africa
Survivors Supporting Each other
Matrix Men Blog

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#387096 - 02/24/12 05:06 PM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: Jim1104]
lucylives Offline


Registered: 04/07/11
Posts: 364
Esposa,
Your "duck" words have hit the nail on the head, my friend. That is the hardest thing to get over, in my opinion, to think something (like our lives) was one thing when they weren't even close to that and we had NO IDEA!

UGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. The pain of that.


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#387102 - 02/24/12 05:55 PM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: Esposa]
herowannabe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/01/11
Posts: 386
Loc: USA
Quote:
I on the other hand don't want to be entirely honest with her in fear of her getting upset at something that she thinks might happen as opposed to actually having happened.
This has just happened, I lied about something stupid, and she saw it as me cheating on her again.


Martin-

With all due respect, (and I hope you know I DO so respect you), if you can't be 100% honest about 100% everything with your wife, she is justified in believing you are cheating on her. Because you are cheating. You are cheating her of the truth.

Even if you fear being honest as you know it'll stir it all up for her, you MUST do that. Please trust me, sweet soul, that there is NOTHING you can reveal to her in a spirit of soul-baring truthfulness that will make matters worse for you in the long run. Yes, some revelations will hurt her and will anger her and may cause a period of despair. But if you explain to her that you are bringing forth the information in effort to prove to her your determination to be absolutely open and honest, she WILL come to appreciate it. She WILL understand that you didn't "have" to be forthcoming with the truth, but because you did- in spite of it being a terrifying thing for you to do, her trust in you will begin to strengthen.

Just a few weeks ago, my husband revealed something more to me that was truly a difficult thing for any human being to have to tell. He didn't have to. We were doing fine. I wasn't prodding him for "what else are you hiding". It was out of the clear blue. I was stunned by the revelation, but quickly came to see it as a true gift from him. It was the gift of being handed a well-hidden secret as a token of his determination to end his cycle of deception, dishonesty, manipulation of facts to serve his interest. My heart said, "If he can tell me of this horrible thing, I am inclined to feel more secure that he will be honest with me about everything else".

Just as male survivors of CSA quickly developed "hypersensitivity" to your surroundings, peoples' moods, the deeper meaning of something said, etc., betrayed spouses have also quickly developed that same trait. As a child, you developed it to protect yourself from further damage; we have developed it for the same reason. She KNOWS in her heart you are not being butt-naked honest with her. She KNOWS in her heart you are still hiding things. She KNOWS in her heart it's just a matter of time before she is hurt again by a lie. You've GOT to prove to her that she can begin to let go of that hypervigilience; that you will be honest in all things past and present. Until you can conquer this, your marriage will not become stable and secure; she will never be healed. Nor will you!

I pray you take my words with the complete love and respect with which I type them. I only want you to succeed!

I wish you the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth-
herowannabe

_________________________


For I know the plans I have made for you. Plans to give you a future and a hope. Jeremiah 29:11


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#387108 - 02/24/12 06:17 PM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: herowannabe]
Esposa Offline
F&F Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 707
Loc: NJ
Ahh Martin... I am with Hero here.

We are on the NO FREAKING SINGLE LIE policy around here. Not even about which traffic light you are at when you call. Hero is right, we can feel it and it triggers us, even when it is insignificant.

And also, it may seem like it will hurt to tell her and its true, she might be mad today. But she will ultimately see the confession and honesty as an act of intimacy - something I know you want to build back with her. My husband and I spent two hours last night talking about historical honesty - being honest about our pasts. That's crazy given our 17 years together. And it was hard to hear, some parts, but OMG, I felt soooo close to him after. I felt like he let me in to a secret world. And he was surprised because he has carried some of those secrets since the day we met (if not before). So we both got something we wanted. I felt special, intimate, connected, trusted - and he felt more free, more loved and more respected. Imagine.

Take the risk Martin.


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#387109 - 02/24/12 06:19 PM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: herowannabe]
Jim1104 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/16/11
Posts: 410
Loc: Louisiana, USA
Hero, you are so right about the hypersensitivity. My wife is definitely hypersensitive to somethings. And you are right, it's a valid reaction.

_________________________
Jim
Male/USA

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#387110 - 02/24/12 06:20 PM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: Jim1104]
Jim1104 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/16/11
Posts: 410
Loc: Louisiana, USA
True that Esposa.

_________________________
Jim
Male/USA

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#387111 - 02/24/12 06:22 PM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: Treehugger75]
Gretta Offline


Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 239
Originally Posted By: Treehugger75
I too am a recovering liar, trying to mend the broken hearts and bridges, I smashed and burned in my neglect of my self.


I love that term, "recovering liar". It is amazing the stupid unneccesary stuff my husband will lie about. He's working hard to change that and regain my trust. I appreciate his efforts. Of everything he has gone through the ONE things he tells me I will never understand and i cant relate is how engrained lying is to his psyche.


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#387114 - 02/24/12 06:30 PM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: Gretta]
Esposa Offline
F&F Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 707
Loc: NJ
My therapist once said to me:

"People lie when they think you are more important than they are."

I remember leaving the session like WHAT??? But then I sat on it and it started to make sense. This is an issue of self esteem more than anything else. What you feel and what you have to say are IMPORTANT, you are IMPORTANT. Don't lie to protect me because you think I will think less of you. I love you.


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#387121 - 02/24/12 07:22 PM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: Esposa]
herowannabe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/01/11
Posts: 386
Loc: USA
Quote:
Don't lie to protect me because you think I will think less of you.


I might humbly add:

..and don't lie to me to protect yourself because that is what will make me think less of you. And less of myself for not being worthy of your trust.

herowannabe

_________________________


For I know the plans I have made for you. Plans to give you a future and a hope. Jeremiah 29:11


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#387353 - 02/26/12 10:13 AM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: herowannabe]
lucylives Offline


Registered: 04/07/11
Posts: 364
EXACTLY, Hero!!

Lying is weak and I don't want to see you that way. Men can be so confused about waht makes a man a man.


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#387403 - 02/26/12 07:08 PM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: lucylives]
traveler Online   confused
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 3450
Loc: somewhere in Africa
You cant't expect a person who has been conditioned and twisted and damaged and raised in a totally perverted and abnormal emotional and relational environment to act NORMALLY! And then when we try to ACT normal and pretend there is nothing wrong, you accuse of of deception - it's a catch-22.

_________________________
As my life goes on I believe somehow something's changed
Something deep inside...
I've been searchin so long to find an answer
Now I know my life has meaning
Now I see myself as I am, feeling very free...
When my tears have come to an end I will understand
What I left behind: a part of me. Chicago


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#387406 - 02/26/12 07:11 PM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: traveler]
Esposa Offline
F&F Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 707
Loc: NJ
Traveler - what are you responding to specifically? I am interested. Please.


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#387422 - 02/26/12 08:22 PM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: Esposa]
eyesforward Offline


Registered: 03/13/11
Posts: 92
Loc: Ontario
Esposa ... here's my guess about what traveler is referring to:

To survive life, a boy who has experienced CSA has to lie. He cannot tell the truth either because of who his perpetrator(s) is/are, because the perp has threatened him, because he has a sense that his family or community won't deal with it well, because he's been told to just get over it, or one of many other reasons.

By the time that boy becomes a man, he can be extremely practiced in developing and maintaining facades, and in figuring out which facade is going to get him through a given situation.

We ask that man, "Would you just tell me the truth?" I imagine he's thinking, "What truth?" or "Why are you going to be any different from anyone else when you hear my truth? They all treated me like sh*t, I felt like a piece of sh*t after saying what there was for me to say. Why would I do that now?" We say "truth"; he hears "risk being rejected *AGAIN*."

In some ways it's like this: As a child, your husband was hit by a car, he never got physiotherapy, and his leg was injured permanently affecting his walking. Then we ask him to hurry up and walk faster, we need to get somewhere soon. Or we push him to do painful physiotherapy and medical procedures to break down years of scar tissue and rebuild. /end of analogy/

It doesn't matter how many times or for how long you or I have been trustworthy with our man; we are still up against a mountain of betrayal of trust. The man has to be ready to reclaim himself and the freedom of being truthful (that is so obvious to us).

From all I've witnessed, it's a helluva uphill climb with a heavy pack to get to the way of being and thinking where "just telling the truth" is simple. He's the one who has to do the work to rebuild, to suffer through re-experiencing the trauma in order to really, deeply, profoundly get that it wasn't his fault and that there is nothing he needs to feel ashamed about or to hide.

Bottom line: Infinitely easier for me to say than for him to do it.


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#387432 - 02/26/12 09:18 PM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: eyesforward]
traveler Online   confused
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 3450
Loc: somewhere in Africa
Sorry - i got triggered and went off because this sounded so much liek one of my conversations with my wife. She just doesn't get it and nobody can who hasn't experienced it.
She keeps saying - "But i told you everything about myself and yu hid so much and kept it secret and lied about it."
And i respond - "But you didn't have anything shameful to tell and no fear that it would make you unloved or rejeted or treated with contempt or revulsion."
And that is exactly what everyone else before has done. the people who did it, the people who knew about it, the ones who wanted to keep it hidden or pretend it had never happened... Why should i imagine that this time it will be different? it is a reflex and a lifelong habit and a survival technique to hide and deny and evade. It takes extreme mental and emotional effort and overcoming of strong resistance and almost physical exertion to break the silence and destroy the facade and become vulnerable. it is the SCARIEST thing ever -even more frightening than the original abuse for me. while i am revealing the "Truth" i shake and have a huge knot in my stomach and a pounding heartbeat and pulsing high blood pressure and shortness of breath and. And i feel like i am being stripped, exposed and held up to public scrutiny and ridicule - no matter how sympathetic her attitude or response and if it is the least bit less than totally open and positive - i shut down again and have my worst fears and assumptions confirmed...
And what truth should i tell?
The one that i lived with for decades with major holes blanked out because i didn't remember or couldn't go there? It was not possible to tell until now.
Or the flashbacks that seeme like nightmares and i sometimes wonder if it was real or my own sick imagination? how much detail? all the physical sensations every move and touch and action - the emotional and mental confusion and conflict and turmoil - or just the objective facts?
Or the truth that i just revealed to my T but is still too raw and painful to tell someone i love and want to love and accept and respect and think well of me? something that i am still trying to come to terms with and haven't yet assimilated myself? Sometimes there just are not words for it all. It's too much to handle. it is all you can do to keep functioning on a minimally routine pattern. All you can handle is to say "i'm OK - it's nothing."

This is too stream of consciousness to make much sense. I'll try later when i can think straight
Lots of what Eyesforward said is true.
Lee

_________________________
As my life goes on I believe somehow something's changed
Something deep inside...
I've been searchin so long to find an answer
Now I know my life has meaning
Now I see myself as I am, feeling very free...
When my tears have come to an end I will understand
What I left behind: a part of me. Chicago


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#387440 - 02/26/12 09:52 PM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: traveler]
Esposa Offline
F&F Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 707
Loc: NJ
Thank you for continuing and I need to hear/read those things...

Every time he has revealed any detail of his abuse, I have felt closer to him and I know he feels that - but I also see what you are talking about in that he simply cannot believe that someone would love him or accept him.


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#387446 - 02/26/12 10:34 PM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: traveler]
Jim1104 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

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Posts: 410
Loc: Louisiana, USA
I think that what eyes said is fairly accurate

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Jim
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#387577 - 02/28/12 03:56 AM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: Jim1104]
traveler Online   confused
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Posts: 3450
Loc: somewhere in Africa
OK - here is part of what i got from the preceding dialogue and my own spin on it. Maybe it will help a little...

Let’s see if I can explain this without making a total fool of myself.

I too have used the statement, “It has nothing to do with you,” when trying to explain things to my wife - why I searched porn sites and why I have doubts about my masculinity and orientation and why I find it hard to be physically intimate – even just the foreplay is tough for me – not to mention the actual sex act. And why I lied to "protect" myself. Weird as it may sound, it was because I love her and need her and don’t want to lose her that I lied. I was sure that if she really knew how dirty and twisted and worthless I was, she wouldn’t even look at me again. It is not about doubting my partner's faithfulness or goodness or compassion - but feeling like the depth of my darkness cancels everything else out.

What I mean when I say “It has nothing to do with you,” is NOT that she shouldn’t feel hurt or neglected or betrayed or rejected. I NKOW she feels those things and I am SORRY that I have caused that hurt. It was not intentional. I wasn’t doing anything or not doing anything as a deliberate decision to cause her emotional pain. Stupid as it may seem, I wasn’t even thinking about how it would affect her. I know I’m a self-centered jerk for that but sometimes all I can do to hang on is focus on myself and try to maintain an appearance of sanity.

What I mean by that statement - “It has nothing to do with you,” is that what I did is not her fault. There is nothing that she did or did not do to make me do what I did when I failed to live up to her decent and reasonable and normal expectations. I take the burden on myself for having screwed up. I am to blame. I am responsible. !!!WITH the caveat!!! - that it is NOT something I want to do or feel good about doing or sometimes even feel I have any other alternatives. It’s like a preconditioned compulsion that is nearly impossible to resist. And I don’t want to involve her in that - even knowing about it. So I try to hide it and look better than I am and let her think that I’m not as wretched and sick as I really am. Because I know it would be difficult for me to try to help her understand and I know that the explanation will hurt her too. I have had some of the most frustrating and exhausting conversations that seem to go nowhere. It is as if we are speaking different languages. Afterwards we are both still struggling to grasp the other's version of "Reality."

And I know it sounds like an excuse or rationalization to blame it on the CSA but for me it is all so intricately intertwined that it is impossible for me to separate the issues, no matter how rational or logical it may sound when you talk about it. "Adult actions" or "childhood trauma"? No - more like Achdiludholtodatcrtaiuomnas! = All one crazy mixed up mess. It's not even like it is a reason - it is part of the continuing event that never really ended. it's still going on in my mind...

Lee




Edited by traveler (02/28/12 04:00 AM)
_________________________
As my life goes on I believe somehow something's changed
Something deep inside...
I've been searchin so long to find an answer
Now I know my life has meaning
Now I see myself as I am, feeling very free...
When my tears have come to an end I will understand
What I left behind: a part of me. Chicago


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#387669 - 02/28/12 07:17 PM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: traveler]
Esposa Offline
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Lee - I read what you have written over and over - I let things sink in that way - and I really truly appreciate "your spin." And it does make sense to me, even though I find it frustrating. It is frustrating to no end to live with someone I admire, respect and love and find that he still feels this way about himself. And I do understand that you feel "it has nothing to do with us". I am extremely grateful for you having taken the time to think about and write this response.

As a spouse, the problem I see with this whole thing of protecting yourself and wearing masks, is that it is a barrier to truly receiving the compassion and unconditional love that you deserve and have earned.


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#387671 - 02/28/12 07:22 PM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: Esposa]
Jim1104 Offline
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Registered: 03/16/11
Posts: 410
Loc: Louisiana, USA
Originally Posted By: Esposa
As a spouse, the problem I see with this whole thing of protecting yourself and wearing masks, is that it is a barrier to truly receiving the compassion and unconditional love that you deserve and have earned.


You are correct.

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Jim
Male/USA

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#387680 - 02/28/12 07:55 PM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: traveler]
Sailor John Offline


Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 310
Loc: Newfoundland & Labrador
Hi,

Lying, even unintentionly, can also stop relationships from developing and growing and then to a breakdown in the relationship in single survivors as well as married couples.

I had burried my abuse way back wherever it goes to get burried. A woman that I was with after hiding my abuse way back "there", asked me if I was keeping something from her and when I said no, she said that if I didn't know now, eventually I would know what she was talking about and say yeh, she was right.

Little did I realize it would be 40+ years before I realised what she was talking about. Sometimes I can't help but wonder if she was also abused and picked up on my abuse subconsciously. Like they say, everything happens for a reason!!! I guess so but I'm not so sure.

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I will mourn the teenager I never was and strive to make that dot of light way out in the far reaches of the end of the tunnel turn into a bright sun.

WE ARE NOT VICTIMS. WE ARE THE SURVIVORS!!!

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#387681 - 02/28/12 08:01 PM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: Esposa]
traveler Online   confused
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Posts: 3450
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***As a spouse, the problem I see with this whole thing of protecting yourself and wearing masks, is that it is a barrier to truly receiving the compassion and unconditional love that you deserve and have earned.***

Of course it is! It is also terribly lonely and painful!!!! But the feared alternative - exposure and vulnerability - seems even worse - scarier because we have experienced THAT and it isn't good. And we HAVEN"T esperienced the love & compassion in this context that MIGHT possibly result.

Again - looking at it from your normal, reasonable, sympathetic perspective will never work if you are trying to understand it from a CSA survivor point of view.

Lee

_________________________
As my life goes on I believe somehow something's changed
Something deep inside...
I've been searchin so long to find an answer
Now I know my life has meaning
Now I see myself as I am, feeling very free...
When my tears have come to an end I will understand
What I left behind: a part of me. Chicago


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#387682 - 02/28/12 08:02 PM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: Sailor John]
Esposa Offline
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This is an interesting idea.

Lying is self castration ultimately. It seems to hurt those around you, when in reality, it most hurts the liar. It is impossible to live with any authenticity and it is extremely stressful I expect.

I think that my husband is going through some kind of shock lately. He revealed some. I still liked him. He revealed more. I still liked him. He revealed all the crazy stuff and you know what, I still liked him. Then he slept with my friend - not such a big fan today.


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#387683 - 02/28/12 08:08 PM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: Esposa]
Esposa Offline
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Thank you Lee - I use this site and insight like yours to try to see things the way he sees things. It's hard wink For both of us.


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#387712 - 02/29/12 01:23 AM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: Esposa]
herowannabe Offline
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Registered: 11/01/11
Posts: 386
Loc: USA
I'm loving this thread!

Lee's explanation is SPOT on what my husband said. Word for word.

It took a while for my mind to wrap around it, but I do understand it better and better these days.

How have I been able to understand it? The ONE and ONLY way I've gained a better understanding of it is with my husband's disclosures. Those little revelations pop up out of the clear blue. They may be things that he's just remembered, or they may be things that he suddenly realizes was NOT normal thought/action/feeling, etc.

When this happens, he is learning to push it FORWARD in his mind (not back to the file cabinet). From there, it goes to his mouth where it is spoken, into my ears, on to my mind, where it melds with rest of his disclosures and is processed. After the processing of the information, which creates a clearer understanding, it all goes straight to my heart, where the clearer understanding nurtures my ability to trust, to be compassionate, to apply the wisdom gathered, and strengthens my woefully injured self-esteem.

Now that we have gotten through the eye of the infidelity storm, he is increasingly bringing forth memories and revelation. He drops whatever he's doing and immediately shares those things (hard things) with me. It's like a flippin' bolt of lightning flashes for us both!

Each revelation is a piece of the puzzle, and helps us both connect-the-dots beginning in his childhood, through adolescence, into young adulthood, and through to the present. Every single revelation shared is a blessing for us both because we can SEE the "why" of the behaviors that almost killed us. I mean it! We can SEE it all falling into a perfectly painted picture that tells the whole story. Being able to see that developing story is what enables him to devise new, mature, healthy behaviors, which heals him of shame. Seeing that developing picture allows my eyes to be opened to how very true it is that none of this had anything to do with "me". It allows me to see the progression of damage done to a young boy who has found himself in an adult's body with absolutely NONE of the normal development of self that he'd have had had he not been damaged so long ago.

We've all marveled at our kids who do the dumbest things- dangerous, careless things that could have hurt their own self or someone else. We ask them why they did such a thing. What do they answer? "I DON'T KNOW". Our child is answering honestly: he has NO clue why he did that dumb thing. The spirit moved him and he went with it! He lacked the maturity and reasoning skills to think through his impulse. But we know for sure that he didn't do the dumb thing because he didn't love us. His love for us had nothing to do with the dumb thing he did.

Our survivors, as adults, know on a certain level that an impulse toward a particular action is wrong, but damned if they have the ability to reason through it before acting. When we, as healthy adults ask them why they did such a thing (obviously, it's because they don't love us, right?), they answer honestly: "I DON'T KNOW". They truly don't know why they did what they did, though they KNOW they love us. That's the truth. I have come to believe that my husband does love me, so I will support him in his efforts to recover/grow into his adult self. The survival of our marriage depends on him doing that hard work.

I can't urge the survivors enough to TALK about these things that come to the front of your mind. Even if it doesn't seem significant to you, and it feels best left unsaid for whatever reason, SAY IT OUTLOUD!!! There is true magic in putting every one of those memories out into the open. Though you may not be able to fathom HOW expressing some revelation can possibly help, every single one of them is a critical part of the puzzle that is YOU! If you want to understand yourself, if you want to stop the cycle of crazy, if you want to be released from your shame, and if you want your partner to understand you, put it all out there as it comes to you.

It's THAT important. I promise.

Godspeed, All!
herowannabe

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For I know the plans I have made for you. Plans to give you a future and a hope. Jeremiah 29:11


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#387744 - 02/29/12 07:19 AM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: herowannabe]
Treehugger75 Offline


Registered: 02/08/12
Posts: 158
Loc: Ontario Canada
Quote:
they may be things that he suddenly realizes was NOT normal thought/action/feeling, etc.


I've just started this proccess. As is evident from my sign up date on this site. That statement is the point I'm still at. I'm not comfortable enough to deal with the REAL memories. I tried to force them out and into the forefront of my mind when I first started reasearching my "condition". I sound like leonard from momento. Remember Sammy Jankins. Or was it Leeeeeeeeroyyyyy. But I digress. I found I was easily confused by my own memories of what happened. The more I dwelt on the darkness the more surreal and improbable certain memories became. Some of what I had built my whole assumptions on seems to be, less real now then, than ever before. So I'll leave the darkness in a moldy old stack in the back of my mind. Right now I'm dealing with the convoluted thought and behavior patterns I've developed over the years. Simple awareness of these feelings occasionally leads to a glimpse of unclouded diorhamas. I also let the enter my mind but i dont dwell on them. I've said in the past I dont want to just beat depression, I want to beat the ever living shit out of depression. Right now I'm learing to fight depression by dealing with my involuntary responses and recognizing them for what they are. Distorted truths. There is a sliver of truth to all of my warped mental proccies. Each shard of reality I glean from the distortion is placed with care in a new memory bank. One day I'll either have enough shards to look at the stained glass window that is "The Truth", or be strong enough to throw a brick through the cobbled together images and forget the moving pictures entirely. Either of the two paths is fine for me because they both follow the same road for now, and in the end, either result will be indicative of my have progressed far enough to truely bury my past.

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I will never ALWAYS be right, I wasn't wrong, I am whats left.

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#387751 - 02/29/12 09:17 AM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: Treehugger75]
Esposa Offline
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Treehugger - I think the simple act of becoming aware is the big part of the battle. To catch yourself.

Our marriage therapist once talked to us about the old brain, the amygdala and how it contains our conditioned responses. The challenge for everyone is to grab hold of that thought, that first thought, and take a look at it. Once you do that enough, you start to see how off or disfunctional some of our ingrained thoughts are - this is true for everyone.


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#388026 - 03/02/12 03:09 AM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: Esposa]
traveler Online   confused
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Posts: 3450
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Thanks again to all of the above contributors. You have helped sooooooo much.

Hero - gonna start doing what you said tomorrow morning -

*** If you want to understand yourself, if you want to stop the cycle of crazy, if you want to be released from your shame, and if you want your partner to understand you, put it all out there as it comes to you. ***

taking my wife out to breakfast and we'll read this whole thread together. Scared spitless - but gotta do it! it's a start.

Any and all prayers gratefully acccepted,
Lee

_________________________
As my life goes on I believe somehow something's changed
Something deep inside...
I've been searchin so long to find an answer
Now I know my life has meaning
Now I see myself as I am, feeling very free...
When my tears have come to an end I will understand
What I left behind: a part of me. Chicago


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#388121 - 03/02/12 10:26 PM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: traveler]
herowannabe Offline
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Registered: 11/01/11
Posts: 386
Loc: USA
Don't be skeered, Lee! What do you have to lose but the closely kept hurts that have kept you prisoner? smile

One thing neither we supporters or you, our partners, are quite cognizant of is that many survivors have choosen as mates people who hold a great, driving ability (almost a need) to be of help, to model compassion, to see the value of sacrifice.

Sometimes, supporters take this quality to an extreme and become "co-dependent". However, many of us maintain the balance.

I suspect your wife may be very much like us, which means that she will be grateful and energized by your disclosures. Each time I'm handed one of my husband's secrets/revelations, it is a GIFT. It gives me something to work with, something understandable to counter the incomprehensible.

I believe I help him with what he shares because my view of his disclosure is crystal clear, where he's carried it for so long, he can't see it for what it really is. I imagine it's a relief for him to be shown a mature, healthy way to look at his abuse and his acting out. In the light of day, it's not so horrible anymore.

Prayers going up for you, sweet soul!
herowannabe

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For I know the plans I have made for you. Plans to give you a future and a hope. Jeremiah 29:11


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#388141 - 03/03/12 02:27 AM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: herowannabe]
traveler Online   confused
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Posts: 3450
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laugh It went really well! - or at least the outcome was good - long and rocky road gettin there - but worth all the bumps. (Sorry to make this about me - or rather US - but maybe it can ALSO serve as an endorsement that the total openness and honesty thing really DOES work!) She said she sees this morning as a major pivotal point for us!!! That's a pretty good encouragement to keep on trying - now on to the next chapter...

Thanks, all!
Lee

_________________________
As my life goes on I believe somehow something's changed
Something deep inside...
I've been searchin so long to find an answer
Now I know my life has meaning
Now I see myself as I am, feeling very free...
When my tears have come to an end I will understand
What I left behind: a part of me. Chicago


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#388155 - 03/03/12 08:41 AM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: traveler]
GoodHope Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 416
Lee, I've yet to experience it but I believe with all my heart it is the only thing that can work. I'm so glad your outcome was good!

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Wife of a survivor

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#388177 - 03/03/12 02:10 PM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: GoodHope]
Jim1104 Offline
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Registered: 03/16/11
Posts: 410
Loc: Louisiana, USA
Wonderful for you Lee.

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Jim
Male/USA

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#388180 - 03/03/12 03:05 PM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: Jim1104]
Esposa Offline
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Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 707
Loc: NJ
YES LEE!!! YES, now come over and talk to my husband for me will ya?


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#388219 - 03/04/12 04:16 AM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: Esposa]
traveler Online   confused
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Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 3450
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not sure it would do any good, Esposa. some things you have to discover yourself. even with all the good discussion here, not sure i'd have gotten it even a few months ago.

Thanks for the encoragement, tho- and you too Jim and Good Hope

Weird thing tho - our perceptions are so different: she said it was like starting to turn an oceanliner - it will take a while to see the results... while i felt like i had just made an abrupt U-turn. a beginning for her, a HUGE reversal for me.

Maybe that is significant - and one of the problems in relationships - the difference in perceptions between partners on what is an insignificant thing and what is a BIG DEAL?

Lee

_________________________
As my life goes on I believe somehow something's changed
Something deep inside...
I've been searchin so long to find an answer
Now I know my life has meaning
Now I see myself as I am, feeling very free...
When my tears have come to an end I will understand
What I left behind: a part of me. Chicago


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#388312 - 03/05/12 12:19 AM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: traveler]
herowannabe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/01/11
Posts: 386
Loc: USA
Hooooorahhhhhhh!!!

So, so happy everything went so well for you, Lee! smile

Sending hugs!
herowannabe

_________________________


For I know the plans I have made for you. Plans to give you a future and a hope. Jeremiah 29:11


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#388327 - 03/05/12 04:40 AM Re: Can you just have a bad year? [Re: herowannabe]
Tyler845 Offline


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 276
Loc: U.S.A.
Nice work traveler. Glad to hear of your continuing success. Be well brother.

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Most Often, The Child Inside Has Better Access To Execute The Flawless Potential Of Self.

Over-Ride Emotional Conflict With Rational Truths

You Are Freer Than You Think - Paul Berteaux

Come unto Me, all ye that Labor, and are Heavy-ladened. I will give you Rest -Jesus Christ

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