I would think that they need help by a professional therapist, something neither of us are.
Im not sensationalizing it by comparison, just one example that came to mind.. Also neither of us are Holocaust survivors so we don't know if they would approve or disprove of this thread.

The argument only shows that we have not defined the goals and objectives of the discussion, not that there is no objectivity. This discussion is all over the place.

Again I ask, What are we trying to achieve here? where are we going with this topic?

Somebody comes and posts that they have the same feelings. Ok so they found people that feel the same way. What now? What wisdom, what help can be given from other survivors on this particular subject?

the point of this forum is not that every single thread in it must serve a purpose. loads of people just make threads and vent, and there are tons of threads that don't even have replies. i think this thread is serving a valuable purpose. there is a reason why it is five pages long after all. nobody would talk if there was nothing important to say.



which is completely irrelevant. just because someone approves or disapproves or something doesn't mean it is not an important issue to discuss or bring up.

you say you're not having an ethical debate, merely discussing how appropriate it is to talk about this, but you are bringing ethics into it by "disapproving" of it and by subsequently saying how "controversial" and "inappropriate" it is - those are ethical judgments. deciding what is right and wrong to talk about is ethical.



how about the last i don't know five pages of responses which elucidate on many different people's opinions, viewpoints, some links to resources, ken singer himself coming on board and talking about it (without judgment, by the way - because hey, we actually have a board on here precisely for this very thing, it's called the At Risk forum), people engaging in debate at all.

it's healthy. it's good to examine. that's the wisdom, that's the help, that's the purpose of every thread on here.

the relief to know one is not alone in this battle.

When a boy is forced to perform sexual acts on other boys, as a part of a pattern of abuse, then it leaves a tattoo on his soul. It's difficult to erase. It leaves scars which are part of PTSD* and not a sexual orientation. Perhaps therapists need to work out better techniques to deal with this kind of a problem. Maybe it's more disabling than having a leg blown off by an explosive device.

Just because a boy has scars like that, it doesn't mean that he will become a perpetrator himself. But it might be that other people will see his "tattoo" and think ill of him. It might even be that lots of therapists will not understand. It might also be that lots of people out there will think he's a bad person just because of his "tattoo". Maybe the boy will have a lot of trouble even talking about it later.

Perhaps some perpetrators are exceptionally cruel and purposely try to disable their victims by forcing them to perform sexual acts on other boys. If so, whose fault is it? Is the boy to blame because he was forced or coerced? Or even if the boy is cajoled into such acts and not actually forced, then if he is too young to make his own decisions, then he is still not to blame.

Where can a boy who has been mistreated that way find any help? Especially since a lot of therapists don't understand? And certainly the 'man in the street' doesn't understand.

Just my opinion. (quote Mickey Rooney)

Puffer

* Post Traumatic Stress Disorder

I have some attractions and I must say that this is a refreshing dialog to me. I've posted similar things in the past and only received flames back, so I think we're growing as a community, maybe. I think this thread is impressive and brave considering the site. I'm not seeing any tempers majorly flaring -- in what was posted at least.

Anyway, I don't have much to add but I just wanted it to be noted that not all who abuse children are pedophiles or attracted to them. In fact most are not. A lot of abusers just want to control and have power over people, and they cannot do that with people their size and age. So your abusers might not have even been pedophiles. Something to remember when thinking about how we offer treatment to pedophiles vs. other abusers.

I agree with the idea of offering treatment. I think it is important to try and help people pre-offense, but when I was seeking help for my attractions I was met with a brick wall unless I HAD offended. I must've met with 10 therapists (the first one at 17 years old, I think!) that gave me blank stares when I told them of my attractions and thoughts. It was so discouraging that on one hand society hated me and wanted me more than anything to change but on the other they cut off all sources of support in which to change because of the moral outrage.

My opinion is when society treats someone like dirt, they will live up to that expectation and act like dirt. I don't know how many desperate and lonely years I could get back had I met with a qualified therapist at 17. However, because of the emotionality, psychology is still too afraid to even touch this subject in research and whatnot out of fear of retribution via loss of funding.

Thank you everyone for being here and being so open. I appreciate all of the input and opinions on this thread. Of course it is obvious that there is no fault in the child when they are abused, and that people who do abuse should face consequences, but I think we as a society need to be realistic and remember that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. My goal is to stop abuse - and if that means having to talk about uncomfortable things, and potentially help those whose behaviors I hate, I'm for it if it means a kid doesn't have to live like I did from my abuse.

Thank you again, everyone!

The strong deep feelings that this churns up argues precisely the opposite. We are not here to avert our eyes and pretend this does not exist - we are here to confront our deep issues, to grow and to heal. This is not a convention of self-deluding kidders; it is a virtual venue for open, honest and frank discussion.

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sorry

What a great post AndyJB2005. Well put.

I too am impressed this subject is being handled as well as it is. This has never happened here like this as I recall.

And I have to admit, hearing about "attractions to children" (which means different things I believe) puts me on high alert, but how can we of all people say silence, taboo and isolation is better? Huh??? It sure didn't work with my "abused issues", so I really don't think it's going to be a winning strategy with "abuser issues". In fact, talking about that, shining the bright light of day on it, is very protective of everyone, isn't it? Compared to the pain actual abuse causes a child, my discomfort hearing about your thoughts is nothing. DH, everyone, keep talking.