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#386663 - 02/21/12 10:16 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: limit]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1304
I find myself unable to argue anything that Limit said in this post. What Limit said here is really what I said...

Originally Posted By: Limit
if people were more interested in how a pedophile coped with being a pedophile instead of how wrong a pedophile was for thinking about sex with kids (as if any human being is the moral fucking police who can choose what is right and wrong to think about, get over yourselves~), we would probably have a lot less issues.

...................EQUALS.......................

Originally Posted By: eric (me!)
If the knee-jerk reactions instead were measured steps to TREAT our molester, it wouldn't have continued for months after that. If this guy had gotten real help and guidance rather than a tidal wave of anger, it might have saved me multiple episodes of abuse. If the parents stopped indulging in anger and opened their eyes, they may have discovered the countless victims that they never knew about - including me and my sister.

Powerful stuff...



_________________________



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#386670 - 02/21/12 12:08 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: limit]
LandOfShadow Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 684
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
Originally Posted By: limit
i wish people would stop considering thoughts and urges as the be all and end all of everything and start looking at how they actually manage those thoughts and urges and how they deal with them and how they affect their lives.

if people were more interested in how a pedophile coped with being a pedophile instead of how wrong a pedophile was for thinking about sex with kids (as if any human being is the moral fucking police who can choose what is right and wrong to think about, get over yourselves~), we would probably have a lot less issues.


Bingo! Yes!

That is so true. I wish schools and youth organizations, etc. would have programs for this. Basically, if someone has urges, or concerns about being inappropriate with young people, give them a free place to talk about that, and get help and encouragement to manage that WITHOUT acting on it. Thoughts hurt no one. Without the huge negative consequences for that person, else there'd be no incentive at all to deal openly with it. They are doing the right thing by trying to not act on those impulses, right? Wouldn't that be a whole hell of a lot safer for everyone? And it must be pretty common considering all the sexual attention and abuse children experience from adults. Paradoxically, we drive it underground creating the secrecy in which abuse thrives.

Originally Posted By: DarkHadou
I only discovered this when I was around 20. I am 27 now and I have been attracted to them since. It most likely has to do with the abuse, but it's nothing negative to me, I like being attracted to them. It's hard for me to relate to girls my age, many of them are in relationships, married, with kids, plus the fact that I have social anxiety and only attracted to them a little physically. I never got to developed good social skills, being able to talk in front of people, especially talking to girls, I guess I just want to be a teenager again so I will be able to change the past (not talking about the abuse), talking about social anxiety, I wouldn't mind remaining that age forever, 11-17. ...


DarkHadou, you're only 27. Listen, firstly, you are not that unusual in your anxiety talking to girls and feeling behind everyone else as others here show. Also, it's perfectly possible to continue to grow as a person beyond feeling like you are forever a teenager. You kind of have "parts" that are stuck in certain development stages. You can work with these parts and integrate them together into an more combined adult. Actually, I think about everyone has these "younger selves" they can contact.

Originally Posted By: DarkHadou
it would be great to be a kid or teenager forever, I can't relate to people my age, I hate being this age, it's like I lost my true self and now I'm stuck in this adult body while my mind remains in the past, I never developed the appropriate social skills to approach females, especially in a romantic way, I have social anxiety, in order to change this I will have to time travel and not isolate myself, not avoid social situations, guys my age are light years ahead of me with girls,


Except you can't stay a teenager forever. Nor even 27.

And not all guys your age are "light years ahead"...

So I recently in my 50's had my first real girlfriend, with sex and emotional intimacy. Perhaps I was lucky, idk, but I was really open about my whole story and she was great with it. In some ways it seemed really attractive to her. Very authentic. For some people, that kind of "real" is very attractive. Even if you're kind of strongly feeling like a shy teenager. About everyone remembers feeling that way, even if they've grown beyond it.

Realistically, you're going to only get older, and getting romantic with a teen is going to be problematic, and worse, being sexual with a teen is going to be possibly beyond disastrous to yourself and intensely harmful to a teen. It's a much better option to explore your "teenage self" with another adult friend, adult survivor (i.e. here), adult romantic partner, a therapist. You have all those options don't you?

Talk to us more. Explore yourself and try to grow up more. You didn't get the help and support and experiences you needed as a child but you can find all that now.

_________________________
Et par le pouvoir d’un mot Je recommence ma vie, Je suis né pour te connaître, Pour te nommer
Liberté

And by the power of a single word I can begin my life again, I was born to know you, to name you
Freedom

Paul Eluard

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#386677 - 02/21/12 01:06 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: LandOfShadow]
Anthony39 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 345
Loc: Montreal, Canada
I am not capable to accept this and am also surprised to learn that this was a common occurence among some survivors. I don't know what to make of it. I can't pssibly be the only one who finds this disturbing.
I spent my childhood interfering between my perp and I so that he would leave my little brother alone. Thankfully he did.
As far as fantasies go i have fantasized about my perp in the past but never the reverse. That's just me.
I would like to know where we draw the line of what is acceptable to discuss and to what end more importantly?

There is a tribe in Pappua new Guinea where males live separate from women. When a male child reaches a certain age he leaves his mother and goes and live with the other men in a communal house. There the younger kids are used by the older as sex partners, for the adults. Everyone in the tribe goes through it. Does it make it right? is it cultural? is it acceptable? can we put our value system on this?
Well to me it is still abuse because in the end that tribe is just a small representation of the human experiment, and probably in time a social failure.

_________________________
Look up and not down; look forward and not back; look out and not in; and lend a hand.
E. E. Hale


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM213aMKTHg

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#386683 - 02/21/12 02:13 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Anthony39]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1304
Wow, Anthony - that really resonated. I spent my own childhood interfering as well - protecting my little sister (unfortunately NOT always successful). And I think my sexual development evolved similarly - embracing the subservient, passive role I was forced to assume with him. I chalked that up to survival, and sometimes wonder if I owe a debt of gratitude to little eric for doing what he could. Many people here at MS helped me see that (when I posted my "Dirty Little Hero" post in the Intro section), and sometimes I'm almost convinced they're right.

I'm not sure if we differ on this but this is how I see it and reconcile the issue with both myself and the forum. The experiences and after-effects of abuse are so incredibly varied that what if there are those who come here with a tendency to fantasize about children? For example, I don't - but then again, I didn't get lost in drugs or alcohol or prostitution, either. Does that make me any more or less valid than anyone else here? Does that make anyone who does suffer from attraction to kids any less valid? And if someone DOES have that attraction and fights those inner demons, are not they in fact heroes rather than monsters? Sexual proclivities cannot necessarily be altered - if they could be, I probably would not choose to be gay. Yet acting or not acting on them within the framework of what is socially acceptable is the only true mark of character. A pedophile who exercises restraint despite a sexual proclivity he cannot alter must be a truly tragic figure, yet a hero to those children he protects from himself. Would I have that strength if I were in his shoes?

If we turn them away, then what good are we to anyone other than ourselves? If we aren't strong enough now as adults to face those dragons, then my biggest fear is that those dragons will turn away and revisit the cycle of abuse on others. We cannot let that happen.

My perp went underground when he was caught. No one wanted to help him - only punish him. He became a pariah - a leper - in our neighborhood. And when he slinked down into his secret lair, he dragged me by the hair and took me with him for MONTHS and no one gave a F*CK!

Would I even be here if he could have been here first?????

As far as I'm concerned, this is disturbing stuff - it is not easy to discuss and takes a lot of courage on the part of those who come to us asking for help. Many of us have children, grandchildren , nieces, nephews, cousins, and know children who are neighbors and children of friends. Others can indulge in the indignation all they want, but if helping to guide someone keeps them from repeating the cycle on those kids, I'm there to help.

And if my own experience has taught me anything, I guarantee you that making them pariahs will make more victims like ME.

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#386684 - 02/21/12 02:20 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Chase Eric]
limit Offline


Registered: 04/23/11
Posts: 131
Quote:
I would like to know where we draw the line of what is acceptable to discuss and to what end more importantly?


well, ethically, you can think and believe what you like. because of our ethics, we allow you, in our subjective heads, to feel and think whatever you want. but subjectively, ethically, to us (those who allow freedom of expression/thought/etc regardless of controversy), you're confusing thought and action.

you're highlighting the actions of others to support your claim that the thoughts are disturbing. thoughts are neither good or bad. you are disturbed by the thoughts, that doesn't make the thoughts objectively disturbing.

people don't do better until they know better or they aren't sociopaths/psychopaths/etc.

i spent lots of my younger years beating the crap out of people and stealing and getting high and engaging in unhealthy behaviors and hurting people. it is easy to shove someone like me aside, but all you do is continue the problem. you can't fix a problem unless you address it. you can't stifle thought if you want to fix the actions that come from thought.

labeling the thought as anything - disturbing, fun, interesting, whatever - any label - is bound to backfire because it puts the power on the thoughts instead of on the actions. thoughts are morally ambiguous. you can think about whatever you want. no one is going to come in your head and punish you for any thought you have. actions are morally obligatory.

you seem to think that you can't accept that a person can think and believe whatever they want because it means supporting whatever it is they think about. i'm not sure that's healthy, either. suppression and stifling isn't going to get anybody anywhere.

denying people the permission to think what they want just creates an environment where, barring acceptance, they will act out, because they have no alternative.



Edited by limit (02/21/12 02:35 PM)

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#386685 - 02/21/12 02:24 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: limit]
limit Offline


Registered: 04/23/11
Posts: 131
is a pedophile who rapes children equal in character to a pedophile who has never raped a child?

break it down.


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#386686 - 02/21/12 02:30 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: limit]
limit Offline


Registered: 04/23/11
Posts: 131
i just want to add that debating ethics doesn't really sit well with me because ethically, imo, people are allowed to think and believe what they want. but the question was asked as to how we could ethically allow a discussion, so ... i hope that made any sense.


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#386687 - 02/21/12 02:32 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: limit]
limit Offline


Registered: 04/23/11
Posts: 131
Quote:
...................EQUALS.......................


yeah eric i realized after lol but i figured i would sacrifice accuracy if another explanation could be set so i left it, but yeah, we are p much communicating the same things here.


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#386708 - 02/21/12 03:23 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: limit]
Anthony39 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 345
Loc: Montreal, Canada
Limit,
Objectivity exists within a realm of consciousness based on social context with personal experience. Even objectivity is bound by rules . It is ironic that you chose Limit as your acronym.
Your ethics don't allow or prevent me from anything since you don't have control on what and how I feel.
I am not confusing thought and action. I know the difference between the two. I am questioning the implications of bringing up this topic in this forum. It may be a stretch but for me it is as if a holocaust survivor decided to post that he fantasizes of being a guard in a camp and beat prisoners, on a survivor website.
As far as pedophiles never having touched a child it depends. If they make use of child pornography, they are as equal in character as those who do touch children. If they live those fantasies in their heads and don't make use of child pornography then hopefully they are getting the help necessary to deal with the issues that bring about those thoughts.
I am not debating the ethics here. Realistically burrying the problem under silence and censorship is neither going to solve the issue nor make it disappear. I do question wether it is appropriate to bring this topic on this forum. Obviously it is since the post has not been removed. I can still voice my opinion. Is my opinion biased, certainly, on this particular subject, not because of blind hatred , but because I still cannot come to terms with my own abuse, because when I look at my prepubescent children, i find it offensive and even more puzzling as to why an adult would have any sexual interest in them.
I am a wildlife Biologist, I have also studied Anthropology and had the chance to study animal behaviour in the wild. I can tell you that in all my years of observations , there is no behaviour that cannot be explained, and that goes for us too. I will say that we are entering dangerous grounds when we tackle this subject. We have to be very careful and define what we want to achieve with this, and yes we have to set limits.

_________________________
Look up and not down; look forward and not back; look out and not in; and lend a hand.
E. E. Hale


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM213aMKTHg

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#386713 - 02/21/12 03:39 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Anthony39]
limit Offline


Registered: 04/23/11
Posts: 131
Quote:
Your ethics don't allow or prevent me from anything since you don't have control on what and how I feel.


they would inherently allow whether or not i could accept it. just like what you feel and believe affects how much of what i say you are willing to hear.

Quote:
hopefully they are getting the help necessary to deal with the issues that bring about those thoughts.

Quote:
Is my opinion biased, certainly, on this particular subject, not because of blind hatred , but because I still cannot come to terms with my own abuse


so, to me, none of this makes sense and is why i would be willing to accept a conversation about pedophilic thoughts.

how do you expect a pedophile to "hopefully get the help they need" if you suggest that they are not allowed to bring up their thoughts because of your own issues.

sensationalizing it by comparing it to holocaust survivors doesn't really do anything, because for me, the same thing would apply to a holocaust survivor. that they would feel and think something like that is definitely, absolutely worth discussing.

Quote:

Objectivity exists within a realm of consciousness based on social context with personal experience.


the fact that we are having this argument proves that it doesn't. the only objectivity is that everything is subjective. every human has a perception and that perception is so clear, they believe that it is true reality. true reality doesn't exist.

and that is my subjective opinion. that your opinion differs from mine is just the reinforcement of how subjective it is between each person. the objective reality is only that reality is a subjective sharing collective between a bunch of people who all interpret it in different ways.



Edited by limit (02/21/12 03:43 PM)

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