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#385365 - 02/11/12 08:22 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: phoenix321]
blacken Offline
Chatroom Moderator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 1216
Loc: Northern Ohio
Pheonix,
Where in the world did u get those stats that 33% of CSA survivors offend?!?
I work in the social work field in Ohio. We believe its more like 5 to 7%.

_________________________
Everyone is a genius! If you were to judge a fish, by its ability to climb a tree,
it would think it was stupid all of it's life.
~Albert Einstein

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#385395 - 02/11/12 11:42 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: blacken]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6397
Loc: 2.5 NATO Nations
That stats we use, running around citing, need to be identified. The myth we try to dissuade with these stats are a virtual cornerstone of our battle to our acceptance into society, our families, everything!

_________________________
Wish You Were Here!

The Aftermath Video

The Water Buffalo Song

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#385432 - 02/12/12 09:13 AM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: Still]
mike13 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/02/11
Posts: 419
Loc: California USA
You are so right Robbie


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#385492 - 02/12/12 09:06 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: blacken]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
Originally Posted By: blacken
Pheonix,
Where in the world did u get those stats that 33% of CSA survivors offend?!?
I work in the social work field in Ohio. We believe its more like 5 to 7%.


Offend in child abuse and SA and CSA. I've always read that.

_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

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#385493 - 02/12/12 09:15 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: Still]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
Originally Posted By: Robbie Brown
That 33% is the number thrown-about by the popular media (e.g.: Law and Order SVU, NYTimes...). Its a popular figure that seems to go hand-in-hand with the street-myths. We need some scholarly professional to tell us some sound truths, cuz this is some serious *bleep* we are dealing with here.


Yep, heard that 33% stat over and over. Maybe it includes all crime?

Perhaps before people (male or female) become responsible for kids a psych test is given?

I think overall we need to recognize that stats in these areas are very difficult to come by.

You can all jump on me but I don't think this makes it false: "Parents can chose who they want to be around their kids and who they don't want around their kids regardless of discrimination. Educate those that do it to extremes but with all the pedo behavior out there, how is it not their right to be cautious? Nothing wrong with drug testing teachers."

I was very honest that I wouldn't let my kids (if I had them) be around Priests period. Am I bad? Hell no! Every time I see one I wonder, "is he a pedo?" If the Roman Catholic church hadn't extensively covered it up to absurd degrees, I wouldn't think that. That's how a lot of uninformed people think.

As for pedos, life in prison is my thought. No exceptions. Male or female pedos get the same.

_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

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#385976 - 02/16/12 03:38 AM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: phoenix321]
traveler Online   confused
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 3353
Loc: somewhere in Africa
mad They did it again! mad

Last night i was watching an episode of LAw & Order SVU outside the US - so it wsa a different scheule and probly even a different season) and i couldn't believe that they were perpetuating the same old myth.

*** Triggers***
story line involved a young woman who'd been raped and as they investigate the suspects and motives it turned out she'd been kidnapped as a young girl and was used to make pedo-porn films. She was helped to escape by one of her "co-stars" - a boy slightly older than her and they lost one another. As the case unfolds, they discover that the rapist was one of her "fans" and the boy victim has now taken over the film business and is abusing kids the way he and the girl had been used. She kills the old man that used her, but the co-star rescuer, boy/now man is still out there...

If I hadn't been so mad about the whole thing it might have been a major trigger for me - but the ANGER gave me the strength to watch to the end. i kept hoping ... I know it's crazy - but have you ever prayed for the end of a show or book or film to be different than how you're afraid it's going to end up?

and the beat goes on...

mad LEE mad

_________________________
As my life goes on I believe somehow something's changed
Something deep inside...
I've been searchin so long to find an answer
Now I know my life has meaning
Now I see myself as I am, feeling very free...
When my tears have come to an end I will understand
What I left behind: a part of me. Chicago


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#385996 - 02/16/12 08:12 AM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: traveler]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6397
Loc: 2.5 NATO Nations
I've written to the producers and anyone else with an email address where Law&Order SVU id produced. I've tried to tell and show them whats what and set them straight. I've never heard back from any of them (which is unusual).

But the Asian Psychiatrist, when dealing with young-boy victims, or grown offenders, nearly always perpetuates the myths.

I'll never forget the one in which a 12-yo boy was being used by a middle-age soccer mom. She was using him BIG time and even got pregnant from him.

Dr. Asian said (speaking of the boy) "he'll certainly have sexuality issues and will most likely become an offender himself."

Elvis use to shoot his TV sets with a .45 pistol every time it pissed him off. I really wish I were Elvis.

_________________________
Wish You Were Here!

The Aftermath Video

The Water Buffalo Song

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#386270 - 02/18/12 03:42 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: Still]
blacken Offline
Chatroom Moderator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 1216
Loc: Northern Ohio
OK, I did some research. I wanted to be able to site references to discount this 33%.

Lancet, Vol 361, Issue 9356, (2/8/2003), ISSN: 00995355. Results of a longitudinal study of 224 male children that were victims of sexual abuse. It was found that, "Overall, 11.6% of victims became perpetrators in later life."

You can read the full artical here.
http://www.thelancet.com/search/results?searchTerm=paul+bouvier&fieldName=Authors&journalFromWhichSearchStarted=lancet

I found many sources, but have only read this one fully. There is some disquieting information there that you may be upset by.

Granted, it is only one article. Yet it is resent & from a reputable source.

There are more surveys & research out there. I will post as I find it. Note that the 11.6% is higher than I expected. So I will continue to report what I find, whether is supports my preclusion or not.


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#386293 - 02/18/12 09:09 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: blacken]
LandOfShadow Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 684
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
It looks like you need a login for the site? Or subscription? How did you access it?

I got the 1996 "Cycle of violence..." paper. I'm not sure what to say about it because there's so much complexity in a study like this. Data was gathered by offering a few dollars to whatever 600 male students would fill out a bunch of self-report assessments. Some were interviewed to verify self-report accuracy. Gender Rigidity and Emotional constriction was the particular interest. "Abuse" and perpetration covered physical AND sexual abuse and perpetration. This isn't a sample one can particularly generalize from, but 38% of the abused reported some form of perpetration (physical or sexual against adults or children). 70% of perpetrators reported childhood abuse. So 30% didn't. That in itself seems important that a focus on CSA survivors misses 30% by that result.

Nearly half (45%) of the men reported physical or sexual abuse or both.

In more detail:
Code:
Involving any form of perpetration (on adult or child): 
                        N     % Perpetrated
                       ----  ----------------
Non abused             316    11%
Only sexually abused    34    32%
Only physically abused 126    37%
Both sex. & phy. abuse  61`   44%

Involving perpetration against children: 
                        N     % Perpetrated
                       ----  ----------------
Non abused             317     4%
Only sexually abused    34    18%
Only physically abused 125    17%
Both sex. & phy. abuse  61`   23%


In rough numbers, then abused boys had a 20% chance of abusing children (physically or sexually), five times higher than the 4% chance of non-abused boys. (NOT the "6000 times higher above"). Other findings that would make sense to us were: experiencing physical abuse leads to physical perpetrators, and sexual abuse to sexual perpetrators. More severe abuse makes perpetration more likely.

The hypothesis that abused perpetrators would score higher than abused non-perpetrators on measures of gender rigidity and emotional constriction was partially supported, more so with physically abused men than sexually abused.

Surprisingly abused men, especially sexually abused men actually showed less gender stress, emotional constriction and homophobia than non-abused men.

There's an interesting concluding remark that makes total sense to me. It speaks to the men who I think we don't see here at MS, don't see in support groups, who perhaps are in prison or silent:

Quote:
On way to understand these findings is to conceptualize two developmental pathways diverging from a history of childhood abuse. In one path, the male abuse victim may appear conflicted and preoccupied by gender identity issues, but this preoccupation may indicate a lack of conformity to gender norms necessitated by his coping with the legacy of his abuse. In the other path, the male abuse victim strives to be stereotypically masculine, and must therefore suppress the high magnitude emotional states that are the legacy of his abuse. The suppression required to hold at bay the emotional legacy of abuse may also suppress his capacity to empathize with others. Having sealed himself off from his own pain, the perpetrator may well seal off his capacity to feel the pain of others, and thereby diminish a crucial inhibition against interpersonal violence. Simultaneously, his rigid gender conformity may accentuate his reliance on anger as a culturally acceptable outlet for his emotions, again increasing his propensity for aggressive interpersonal behavior.


Simply put, men either "act in" (hurt themselves) or "act out" (hurt others). We see the "act in" men. The "act out" men are in prisons, the hyper-masculine types, forever silent.

The fact that 16 years later there's not a large body of research addressing this is the most striking thing to me. There seems to be little interest in fundamentally changing the current state of affairs concerning violence and victimization.

_________________________
Et par le pouvoir d’un mot Je recommence ma vie, Je suis né pour te connaître, Pour te nommer
Liberté

And by the power of a single word I can begin my life again, I was born to know you, to name you
Freedom

Paul Eluard

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#386359 - 02/19/12 06:50 AM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: LandOfShadow]
blacken Offline
Chatroom Moderator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 1216
Loc: Northern Ohio
The problem with surveys, is in the manner in which they are conducted, & the wording &
definition of words use.
If you offer money to complete a random survey, u r likely to get the worst stats because those
filling it out feel compelled "to say something", whether or nor its completely true.
Also, the wording of a survey question is extremely important.
Using a statement such as, 'Did u sexually abuse a child after u became an adult?' , for example,
could lead to the surveyor defining what sexual abuse is. The answers, even when multiple
choice answers are provided can & will be skewed. Even the location where the survey is taken,
can impact your results.
I am not saying there is not important info to be gained by a survey, yet caution that random
surveys differ from studies/research where the variables are screened from general to specific,
definitions are precise, & the source of info is either not aware he is being watched, or
confidentiality is firmly established.
‘Popular media’, will always gravitate towards stats that support what they want & not
necessarily to teach society about the secrets it refuses to face.


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