Newest Members
Robert Barrett, lostsoul824, beatcook, MassGuy, wiresguy1
12278 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
carter (51), CAW1980 (34), Fissy Tsickens (53), Kris (52), Wheatthins (23)
Who's Online
2 registered (wild_turky, 1 invisible), 23 Guests and 2 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
12278 Members
73 Forums
63172 Topics
441741 Posts

Max Online: 418 @ 07/02/12 07:29 AM
Twitter
Page 1 of 10 1 2 3 ... 9 10 >
Topic Options
#386252 - 02/18/12 09:46 AM I'm attracted to preteens
DarkHadou Offline


Registered: 10/13/10
Posts: 117
I only discovered this when I was around 20. I am 27 now and I have been attracted to them since. It most likely has to do with the abuse, but it's nothing negative to me, I like being attracted to them. It's hard for me to relate to girls my age, many of them are in relationships, married, with kids, plus the fact that I have social anxiety and only attracted to them a little physically. I never got to developed good social skills, being able to talk in front of people, especially talking to girls, I guess I just want to be a teenager again so I will be able to change the past (not talking about the abuse), talking about social anxiety, I wouldn't mind remaining that age forever, 11-17. I would choose having an innocent crush of a girl who is a preteen over being in a sexual relationship with a women any time. When I look back, I feel like I was attracted to younger girls since high school, I just didn't realize it then.

BTW, I never did anything inappropriate, it's only being attracted to them, mentally and physically I can relate to them more.



Edited by DarkHadou (02/18/12 09:48 AM)

Top
#386253 - 02/18/12 10:27 AM a [Re: DarkHadou]
lbcali1978 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/12
Posts: 217
A


Edited by lbcali1978 (04/16/13 05:42 AM)

Top
#386256 - 02/18/12 11:05 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: lbcali1978]
Anthony39 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 345
Loc: Montreal, Canada
I sincerely hope you are seeing a therapist. Although I commend you for being honest, I think this problem is beyond the scope of this forum. yes you are a survivor, and a lot of issues are associated with it.
this revelation risks to trigger a lot of survivors in here. Being attracted mentally and physically to prepubescent girls is highly innapropriate and disturbing.
your best bet is to seek therapy .

Good luck

_________________________
Look up and not down; look forward and not back; look out and not in; and lend a hand.
E. E. Hale


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM213aMKTHg

Top
#386259 - 02/18/12 11:33 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Anthony39]
nevragan Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 907
Loc: NC
DH,
I will agree it is a trigger to others here but I'm not saying your not welcome here. There are resources out there for you and I hope you are able to utilize them. All of us need help to overcome what was done to us. There is a website that comes to mind that might be of great help to you. I hope this helps you.

Stop It Now


Top
#386282 - 02/18/12 08:07 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: nevragan]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1166
Loc: New York
Peace,Rainbows & Healing


Edited by lapchinj (03/17/13 09:26 PM)
_________________________
Forgiveness is giving up on the hope that what the past was could have been any different or better.
It's accepting the past for what it was, and using this moment and this time to help yourself move forward.

It will get better....

Top
#386286 - 02/18/12 08:40 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: DarkHadou]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6815
Loc: USA
DH

I think that a lot of guys, CSA survivors, are locked into childhood emotional systems. Abuse tends to lock us into a child-like state. They have never grown up. Peter Pan syndrome. So they keep going through emotional reactions they might have had as kids. But since they can't grow up emotionally without some good counseling, they keep on having those boy-hood emotions over and over again. If they would have been attracted to young girls then, they keep going through it over and over again. Just like a merry-go-round. They never grow up - emotionally.

Puffer


Top
#386305 - 02/18/12 09:58 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: pufferfish]
DarkHadou Offline


Registered: 10/13/10
Posts: 117
it would be great to be a kid or teenager forever, I can't relate to people my age, I hate being this age, it's like I lost my true self and now I'm stuck in this adult body while my mind remains in the past, I never developed the appropriate social skills to approach females, especially in a romantic way, I have social anxiety, in order to change this I will have to time travel and not isolate myself, not avoid social situations, guys my age are light years ahead of me with girls,

I wasn't even able to talk to a female relative I've known since the age of 6, I would see her once a week at church, at 19 I talked to her and it was hard for me to do it, it was an awkward situation, she heard me talk, a real conversation with me and her, not just the regular, short "Hi" talk we had.



Edited by DarkHadou (02/18/12 10:04 PM)

Top
#386321 - 02/19/12 12:17 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: DarkHadou]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6815
Loc: USA
My head is still clearing from childhood stuff. I was talking to someone the other day and afterward it occurred to me that my thought structure was childish (12). I don't think the pitch of my voice was childish, although I've heard that in others.

Puffer


Top
#386323 - 02/19/12 12:21 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: pufferfish]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1166
Loc: New York
Peace,Rainbows & Healing


Edited by lapchinj (03/17/13 09:26 PM)
_________________________
Forgiveness is giving up on the hope that what the past was could have been any different or better.
It's accepting the past for what it was, and using this moment and this time to help yourself move forward.

It will get better....

Top
#386326 - 02/19/12 01:10 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Anthony39]
alone Offline


Registered: 03/05/09
Posts: 55
.



Edited by alone (02/21/12 12:17 AM)
Edit Reason: tired

Top
#386333 - 02/19/12 01:42 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: alone]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1166
Loc: New York
Peace,Rainbows & Healing


Edited by lapchinj (03/17/13 09:26 PM)
_________________________
Forgiveness is giving up on the hope that what the past was could have been any different or better.
It's accepting the past for what it was, and using this moment and this time to help yourself move forward.

It will get better....

Top
#386337 - 02/19/12 01:58 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: lapchinj]
onlyakid Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1552
Loc: New Jersey
I think what Anthony39 is saying is that we certainly arent qualified to help him. Yes, we can be supportive but ultimately he needs a professional to help him. I applaud him for coming forward. If we turn our back on people because they have attractions that are a problem then we increase the likelyhood that they will act on them.

_________________________
"Being with people that understand you...Priceless"

"and i don't want the world to see me, cause i don't think that they'd understand"

"You don't know what love is...you just do as your told"

"My life has changed. What you take as a simple thing, is not so simple for me anymore"


Top
#386375 - 02/19/12 09:57 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: onlyakid]
DarkHadou Offline


Registered: 10/13/10
Posts: 117
After looking at these responds I find it strange that nobody responded like this when someone from this site posted a link on the forums that had pornography and child pornography images on them. It took over two days in order for the link to be removed, but nobody responded like this on that thread.


Top
#386376 - 02/19/12 09:58 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: onlyakid]
Anthony39 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 345
Loc: Montreal, Canada
Alone,
It's exactly what I meant. This place is for support, not a substitute for therapy. I do believe that some topics are innapropriate . especially for survivors who are new here and may not feel comfortable with the issues disclosed here. personally , I see the big picture , I don't get triggered that easily, but it is disturbing. That being said , I am not for censorship, although it has been happening more frequently lately and for milder topics.
it is beyond our scope on so many levels, this one is best left to professionals. I fail to see any positive discussion other than encouraging to seek professional therapy.

_________________________
Look up and not down; look forward and not back; look out and not in; and lend a hand.
E. E. Hale


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM213aMKTHg

Top
#386380 - 02/19/12 10:03 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: alone]
Mikey7752 Offline


Registered: 02/12/12
Posts: 15
Loc: PA
DH,

I strongly agree with Alone. This is the forum!!!!!
Remember, thoughts are Not actions.I applaud you for sharing your secret..we ALL have them.
Keep talking and keep asking questions.
And most importantly, keep coming back to this site for support and encouragement.


Top
#386382 - 02/19/12 10:04 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: onlyakid]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1166
Loc: New York
Peace,Rainbows & Healing


Edited by lapchinj (03/17/13 09:27 PM)
_________________________
Forgiveness is giving up on the hope that what the past was could have been any different or better.
It's accepting the past for what it was, and using this moment and this time to help yourself move forward.

It will get better....

Top
#386385 - 02/19/12 10:12 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Mikey7752]
Mikey7752 Offline


Registered: 02/12/12
Posts: 15
Loc: PA
For the record:

I have had thoughts about young females at different times along the path to recovery. This is not unusual.At least I didn't think so at the time. I have NEVER acted on these thoughts.
I do believe that in order to heal, professional therapy is mandatory, it was for me. All survivors have Triggers period.If we can't speak about this openly, what good is this site?
DH, thank you for being courageous!! You allowed me to speak to about a subject that I have never talked about before.


Top
#386389 - 02/19/12 10:25 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Anthony39]
Mikey7752 Offline


Registered: 02/12/12
Posts: 15
Loc: PA
Anthony39

You stated that some topics are inappropriate. Is there anything inappropriate about sexual abuse? This site is all about the inappropriate behavior we sufferred as children. How could our thoughts be appropriate after horrendous abuse and in some cases torture.
I am 57 years old and the victim of Mother-Son incest. The first half of my life was inappropriate! I have three beautiful children and 4 grandchildren. I did not repeat the abuse!I did spend 15 years in therapy learning how to be appropriate.
So unless You are all without emotional and physical scars, just support DH and cease the judgemental commets.
Only PERPS are not allowed into this safe arena.


Top
#386391 - 02/19/12 10:32 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Mikey7752]
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5778
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
DH and others:
Thoughts are not acts but could lead to them if inhibitions break down. A person may admire a particular car or painting. Even thinking about how they would enjoy it if they owned it. But it is a long way from admiration to stealing.

The dynamics of being sexually turned on at a particular age via abuse is often a way that somebody gets fixated for a particular age range or (though heterosexual in orientation), may be attracted to penises).

Most people without premature sexual experiences get aroused to males or females around the time of puberty. When a boy who is heterosexually oriented gets turned on with sexual thoughts and feelings and discovers masturbation, what do they masturbate to? Usually, girls of 13 or 14 who are classmates or those "much older" women like 19 to 24 in Playboy magazines (at least in my case pre-pornography). We reinforce the thoughts and feelings of those young girls through pleasurable masturbation.

The dynamic of abuse which might disrupt a boy's development socially (he becomes shy, feeling different from his peers) and misses out social experiences and perhaps in HD's case, becomes older and older with the social immaturity below his numerical age.

The At Risk forum which his private, by request and invitation only, is a place where members can discuss thoughts and feelings that might be shocking or offensive to others. If a person is not comfortable about sharing thoughts of inappropriate activities or attractions (and there are people who are offended by admissions of those thoughts around here), they should consider the At Risk forum.

All it takes is having a paid membership in MS and a pm to me requesting admission. I will ask you basically what issues you are dealing with to be sure that the forum is the right place to be.

And, HD, I agree with those saying you should be dealing with this with your therapist who can hopefully help you with developing the skills to be more comfortable with age-appropriate potential partners.


Top
#386410 - 02/19/12 12:54 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
Anthony39 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 345
Loc: Montreal, Canada
Mickey, there is no judgmental comments, just my opinion. Scars! I have enough thank you. I am a supportive member, always have been. Maybe this is difficult for me since I never had attraction to children. You might be in a better position to understand.
I have been involved in prostitution iin my youth but I don't share it in the forums, just a few select people in pms.
Regards,
Anthony

_________________________
Look up and not down; look forward and not back; look out and not in; and lend a hand.
E. E. Hale


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM213aMKTHg

Top
#386412 - 02/19/12 01:02 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Anthony39]
Anthony39 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 345
Loc: Montreal, Canada
Ps. Who do you think you are to tell and pretend to know how I feel and what I can or cannot say.

_________________________
Look up and not down; look forward and not back; look out and not in; and lend a hand.
E. E. Hale


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM213aMKTHg

Top
#386431 - 02/19/12 06:37 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Anthony39]
alone Offline


Registered: 03/05/09
Posts: 55
.



Edited by alone (02/21/12 12:22 AM)
Edit Reason: tired

Top
#386497 - 02/20/12 10:22 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Anthony39]
Mikey7752 Offline


Registered: 02/12/12
Posts: 15
Loc: PA
Anthony, I am trying to understand your feelings. As was just posted by Alone, I believe he speaks for me as well.
You posted a question: P.S. Who am I to question your feelings? I am a survivor as you are. I am not questioning your feelings as feelings are not right or wrong, they are just feelings.
As far as my scars; I am a survivor of mother-son incest from age 2 to age 11.I was also systematically tortured on a regular basis. I am happy to be ALIVE.
So, who am I; just another survivor with very strong feelings!
My goal is to help, assist and encourage ALL SURVIVORS regardless of their issues. Please do not take this response as a personal attack, it is not.The forum is for all male survivors regardless of their issues and deep dark secrets.
Best of luck to you in your recovery, although our experiences were different, the results are the same!



Edited by Mikey7752 (02/20/12 10:41 AM)

Top
#386501 - 02/20/12 10:59 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Mikey7752]
Mountainous Buck Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/15/09
Posts: 1626
Loc: Minnesota
DH- I salute and am grateful for your bravery posting this topic.

SA affected me in many ways- it imprinted images and ideas and feelings that I would not have picked up- it took me years to finally stop the sexual acting out that mirrored the abuse and reclaim my authentic sexuality underneath. When I stopped feeding those old things and habits, the real me showed up.

I hope MS will Continue to be safe and supportive and they men here will share their struggles and problems without feeling judged or condemned.

Again, thanks for your courage.

_________________________
We have to take responsibility for what we're not responsible for.

“It doesn't matter where you've come from,
It matters where you go" Frank Turner

Top
#386543 - 02/20/12 04:41 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Anthony39]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1283
Originally Posted By: DarkHadou
It most likely has to do with the abuse, but it's nothing negative to me, I like being attracted to them.

I think if I had any issue it would come down to this statement. It is really close to essentially saying it is OK to feel this way. I think, reading a lot of the responses in this thread, that's really the issue for most of us - setting up a lot of conflicting feelings among the members that are all coming essentially from the same place. If you had these feelings but didn't seem so "OK" with them, I don't think it would be such a dilemma for us.

When I was a small boy and abused, that is pretty much the attitude my abuser took. He took it just a step further and acted on those desires. So it isn't easy for me to welcome you with a big smile and open arms just because of that, and I suspect there will be variable attitudes in here - all entirely approriate - based on the varied experiences we've had.

I think this IS a place for everyone who wants to heal from ANY of the effects of SA. Many of us were sexualized at a very early age, and inappropriate attractions are certainly among the demons we all have been forced to deal with. So I don't think you are alone. But there IS a requisite attitude I think we ALL have to embrace when we enter MS - a sincere desire to grow and heal. This place doesn't really care who we are, but it should care what our motives are...

The quote at the head of my post suggests to me that you have no such willingness to change, which begs the question of why you are here. Nowhere in your post did you ask for help or really do anything but state your desires.

When you are really willing to change, I don't think you'll find a more helpful, understanding group anywhere. I for one would not shun you for such proclivities. But I do question your motives at this time. More importantly than me, however, is that YOU should question your motives. Do you really enjoy the attraction to small kids - and apart from all the social judgment crap - do you really "like being attracted to them"? If you do, then you need to really question why you are here. If, after careful introspection you find you really hate being attracted to them, then you'd be a fool not to join MS and avail yourself of the resources here.

I have no attraction to little kids. But I am not judgmental over those who do. I don't consider myself better or worse - just thankful I didn't have to fight THAT demon. I have nephs and nieces. And if support from MS kept potential abusers away from those kids, then hell, I'm all over that. I've said it before - child abuse is like cancer in that you can berate it and scream at it all you want, but when you are done with the self-indulgent rants, the disease is still there. Intelligent address, therapy, peer support and an overriding true inner desire to change are the only answers.

_________________________



Click my pic to see why I'm here

Top
#386551 - 02/20/12 05:50 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Chase Eric]
Daniel_forgotten Offline


Registered: 02/07/09
Posts: 479
--------------might be triggering--------------


i have the impression the reason this post is so controvesial is that more than one here have dealt with this issue at some point in their lives. I have had many issues myself. I really believe my view of sex, relationships, boundaries and feelings is completely fucked up. I'll be honest and I will talk about myself as an example (not trying to hijack this post) in my case, I identify myself as straight and I'm grossed out by the idea of being with a male (despite the large number of men i've been with including the csa) I like women, I think I would like a woman as a partner... not only for sex-related things..However, when i'm with a woman I feel I am abusing her (I have never remotely forced any woman, it just feels that way) I was forced by my abusers to abuse girls my age and younger and I know that on the surface but deep inside I feel and know I was the only one there abusing them, I was the one they were looking at. For some reason that feeling was transmited to women in general. When I say I like women I feel as guilty as you when you say you like preteens... but at the same time i feel i dont have to feel guilty because i dont have bad intentions or any will of do any harm.. and i feel you feel this way too. This...crap we have inside is the result of the abuse.

Two: And this is a hard confession to make, I also have some issues with children. I can't say it is attraction and it isn't even about the child itself. It's some form of ... reflection of myself at that age. I still find extremely arousing the idea of my dad and me when I was younger than 10. I got stuck there, I sometimes look for older men to ...flirt with them, to make them want me, to make them confused about me, about who i am, a friend, a lost son, a horny bastard... to run away before something too compromising happens(and i do all this despite how much i am disgusted by the idea) and i do it just to feel i am back in that time. Sometimes when I see a little boy I see myself reflected and feel that kind of .. attraction? it is not attraction but i will use that word for lack of a better one.

Reading what you said I figured it is not the boy i am attracted? to, but the idea of the boy (who was me at some point) and some adult sexual partner.. who is not me, i AM the boy, not the adult. And I know it sounds sick.

does that mean we are at risk of becoming perps? I can't talk for everyone, for me at least, the idea of actually being with a kid repels me, but i can't say i hate flying to those places in my mind. I think my experiences ruined my sense of right and wrong and it probably happens to a lot of us.

You know, my dad, he was attracted to young children too and he didn't think that was wrong and I could list you the 40 reasons why it wasn't wrong, because he made me memorize them...but he did think having sex with me every night was absolutely wrong. He apologized, cried and said he wanted to stop. but it was too late. there is a high risk and i wish you could see what the risk is. Try to think about it.

what all this shit means is that i think is not as simple as "i was abused, now i am interested in children and i will abuse them". I think it's very complicated and I think a lot of people has had this issue, more than they are willing to admit. I'd like to ask everyone here how many of you have secret desires you are embarrased of, that make you hate yourself for even think about them? I have many. Don't kill this guy for being honest.




Top
#386604 - 02/20/12 10:33 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Daniel_forgotten]
limit Offline


Registered: 04/23/11
Posts: 131
i think when people see "i'm attracted to kids" they comprehend it is "i am a pedophile who is actively raping a child right now at the keyboard as i type this"

it inspires a knee-jerk reaction

i personally do not think there is anything wrong with any form of desire or attraction because it would be a lie if anyone here has said they have never entertained the idea. of course everybody has, because that is the nature of free-association of thought. you get abused, of course you think about what would happen if you abused.

for some that turns into submission a la daniel_forgotten who admits he is aroused by himself being hurt as a young boy (which is not wrong, or weird, merely a result of the fucked up wiring which happens in the brain as a result of being sexualized too young) or it can turn into attraction toward others, which is often an expression of the abuse in your past even subconsciously

(the patterns were laid there by the abuse, your brain has adopted them, it's like a cold virus giving you the cold, the virus replicates, it isn't the infected cell's fault - but they can still give you a cold and they can still pass it on)

anyway, so then you think well does attraction automatically lead to action? that is the main question.

does it lead to action? i don't think it does. there are things people desire and want every day, but that they do not go out and do out of whatever morality they possess. i would encourage you to figure out why you have this attraction, and i would encourage you to figure out what you are going to do with it.

because it is not wrong to have an attraction, it's just wrong to have an attraction you can't deal with which might result in action. for example, on this board, it's against the rules to say "i'm going to kill myself" i assume as it would be to say "i'm going to rape a kid" or "i'm going to kill someone else", those topics would likely get censured.

now, for the first one, being suicidal one could argue suicide is less ethically violating than rape or murder, though i am sure there are many arguments for it - feeling suicidal isn't wrong, right? but going around saying "i am so suicidal, i love death, i love suicide, i watch people jumping off buildings all day long, la la la la" it's not very productive, is it? you're not managing that desire which you cannot act on.

you're indulging it. the desire isn't wrong, but how you handle it certainly can be. i think the blase attitude you have toward it is what people are objecting to in terms of this thread being so controversial, and not the fact that you have the desire yourself. it's like the difference between discussing suicide and making a suicide threat or indulging suicidal whims - which are not healthy to this community.

so seeing you basically indulging pedophilia in your mind, to this community, triggers the knee-jerk response, because it feels like if you honestly don't care, you probably won't care if you ever look at child porn or if you ever eventually get the nerve to talk to a kid or even if you decide screw it, and rape a kid. that's basically what people see.

it isn't really much to do with the attraction or the desire at all. i have wanted to walk off the ledge of a building since i was 4 years old, but obviously i am still here and i am still around and i don't have any plans to indulge that - and i'm trying to get clean and get healthy and am posting on here and stuff - so people can see for the most part i am sincere and i am managing my desire reasonably well.

if i came here and said "i have the urge to rape kids and i have since i was a kid as well, but i am going to therapy and i am going into the abuse and i am working on all of this and i limit my contact with any children and i check in to a program and i do all this other crap" (there is assistance out there, it's been linked) - i am sure people would have much less of a problem with it.


Top
#386610 - 02/20/12 11:27 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: limit]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1283
Very interesting responses by Daniel and Limit (good to see you back by the way!) - I felt compelled to add a little more comment...

When I was being molested at 12, my sister was also being molested and she was 7. It was the same perp - the older boy next door - he went after me and most of the 7-8 year old girls in the neighborhood. I was so upset by what I was witnessing - him doing that to those little girls - that I essentially offered myself up to him in their place whenever I could - he had a weakness for me for some reason - even though I was a boy and he liked girls. I remember thinking once I distracted him away from the girls I could then manipulate him away from sex and into something like biking or swimming - but I always found myself on the wrong end of his penis no matter how much I tried. My friendship with him started with me idolizing him like a big brother, but when he started in on me and the girls, that idolatry turned to hate. At first I wanted to be like him - but when the sex thing started I wanted to be anything BUT like him.

So - like Daniel - I embraced my role as victim, probably in part because in my simple child's black-and-white perspective, there were victims and there were molesters, and if I had to make a choice, I'd NEVER choose to be a molester. So like Daniel, I inverted everything.

I often wonder if I made a choice then and there that ensured I would not become a perp. Frankly, I don't think anything like that ever was in me, but I embraced my receptive role as if letting go of it would see me fall to a bottomless pit of darkness and evil.

That's why I don't judge ANYONE here (at least I try very hard not to).

As far as Limit, I think you are right on the mark about the knee-jerk reactions. When my perp was caught, it was all about the knee-jerk anger of the parents. Us kids never were given treatment or help or anything - we just saw the adults self indulge in rage and righteous indignation. It scared the crap out of me. I didn't understand the sexual dynamics I was in. I didn't even understand what sex was. And I didn't understand why that tickling sensation was so pleasurable - the incredible urge to relieve that itch, that ultimately assigned to me a feeling of guilt and complicity, and ensured I kept his secrets both with me and the girls.

If the knee-jerk reactions instead were measured steps to TREAT our molester, it wouldn't have continued for months after that. If this guy had gotten real help and guidance rather than a tidal wave of anger, it might have saved me multiple episodes of abuse. If the parents stopped indulging in anger and opened their eyes, they may have discovered the countless victims that they never knew about - including me and my sister.

I still maintain that accepting a predilection to children is wrong. That's not a judgment - being a pedophile is not a right or wrong thing, it is not a moral thing. It is just a socio-sexual dead-end that leads to loneliness and frustration for the person feeling it, or victimization for others if he acts on it. It is an unsustainable way to live a healthy life.



Edited by Chase Eric (02/21/12 10:00 AM)
Edit Reason: Reworded for better grammar and clarity
_________________________



Click my pic to see why I'm here

Top
#386617 - 02/21/12 01:52 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Chase Eric]
limit Offline


Registered: 04/23/11
Posts: 131
Quote:
I still maintain that accepting a predilection to children is wrong.


just like accepting a predilection to suicide is wrong for exactly the same stated reasons. but people who have suicidal urges are not committing an ethical offense, they just have urges and thoughts.

no thought or urge is wrong, it is the surrounding ripples that occur with the action that a thought or urge might inspire. i think a hundred million different things a day. just because you think about something people consider ethically wrong doesn't make you wrong.

i wish people would stop considering thoughts and urges as the be all and end all of everything and start looking at how they actually manage those thoughts and urges and how they deal with them and how they affect their lives.

if people were more interested in how a pedophile coped with being a pedophile instead of how wrong a pedophile was for thinking about sex with kids (as if any human being is the moral fucking police who can choose what is right and wrong to think about, get over yourselves~), we would probably have a lot less issues.

so i essentially agree with chase eric, but i don't agree that thoughts/opinions/feelings/subjective interpretations are wrong. i think that there are wrong choices.


Top
#386620 - 02/21/12 02:16 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: limit]
mike13 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/02/11
Posts: 419
Loc: California USA
Well stated Limit. Glad you are back hope to talk to you soon. Mike


Top
#386663 - 02/21/12 10:16 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: limit]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1283
I find myself unable to argue anything that Limit said in this post. What Limit said here is really what I said...

Originally Posted By: Limit
if people were more interested in how a pedophile coped with being a pedophile instead of how wrong a pedophile was for thinking about sex with kids (as if any human being is the moral fucking police who can choose what is right and wrong to think about, get over yourselves~), we would probably have a lot less issues.

...................EQUALS.......................

Originally Posted By: eric (me!)
If the knee-jerk reactions instead were measured steps to TREAT our molester, it wouldn't have continued for months after that. If this guy had gotten real help and guidance rather than a tidal wave of anger, it might have saved me multiple episodes of abuse. If the parents stopped indulging in anger and opened their eyes, they may have discovered the countless victims that they never knew about - including me and my sister.

Powerful stuff...



_________________________



Click my pic to see why I'm here

Top
#386670 - 02/21/12 12:08 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: limit]
LandOfShadow Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 684
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
Originally Posted By: limit
i wish people would stop considering thoughts and urges as the be all and end all of everything and start looking at how they actually manage those thoughts and urges and how they deal with them and how they affect their lives.

if people were more interested in how a pedophile coped with being a pedophile instead of how wrong a pedophile was for thinking about sex with kids (as if any human being is the moral fucking police who can choose what is right and wrong to think about, get over yourselves~), we would probably have a lot less issues.


Bingo! Yes!

That is so true. I wish schools and youth organizations, etc. would have programs for this. Basically, if someone has urges, or concerns about being inappropriate with young people, give them a free place to talk about that, and get help and encouragement to manage that WITHOUT acting on it. Thoughts hurt no one. Without the huge negative consequences for that person, else there'd be no incentive at all to deal openly with it. They are doing the right thing by trying to not act on those impulses, right? Wouldn't that be a whole hell of a lot safer for everyone? And it must be pretty common considering all the sexual attention and abuse children experience from adults. Paradoxically, we drive it underground creating the secrecy in which abuse thrives.

Originally Posted By: DarkHadou
I only discovered this when I was around 20. I am 27 now and I have been attracted to them since. It most likely has to do with the abuse, but it's nothing negative to me, I like being attracted to them. It's hard for me to relate to girls my age, many of them are in relationships, married, with kids, plus the fact that I have social anxiety and only attracted to them a little physically. I never got to developed good social skills, being able to talk in front of people, especially talking to girls, I guess I just want to be a teenager again so I will be able to change the past (not talking about the abuse), talking about social anxiety, I wouldn't mind remaining that age forever, 11-17. ...


DarkHadou, you're only 27. Listen, firstly, you are not that unusual in your anxiety talking to girls and feeling behind everyone else as others here show. Also, it's perfectly possible to continue to grow as a person beyond feeling like you are forever a teenager. You kind of have "parts" that are stuck in certain development stages. You can work with these parts and integrate them together into an more combined adult. Actually, I think about everyone has these "younger selves" they can contact.

Originally Posted By: DarkHadou
it would be great to be a kid or teenager forever, I can't relate to people my age, I hate being this age, it's like I lost my true self and now I'm stuck in this adult body while my mind remains in the past, I never developed the appropriate social skills to approach females, especially in a romantic way, I have social anxiety, in order to change this I will have to time travel and not isolate myself, not avoid social situations, guys my age are light years ahead of me with girls,


Except you can't stay a teenager forever. Nor even 27.

And not all guys your age are "light years ahead"...

So I recently in my 50's had my first real girlfriend, with sex and emotional intimacy. Perhaps I was lucky, idk, but I was really open about my whole story and she was great with it. In some ways it seemed really attractive to her. Very authentic. For some people, that kind of "real" is very attractive. Even if you're kind of strongly feeling like a shy teenager. About everyone remembers feeling that way, even if they've grown beyond it.

Realistically, you're going to only get older, and getting romantic with a teen is going to be problematic, and worse, being sexual with a teen is going to be possibly beyond disastrous to yourself and intensely harmful to a teen. It's a much better option to explore your "teenage self" with another adult friend, adult survivor (i.e. here), adult romantic partner, a therapist. You have all those options don't you?

Talk to us more. Explore yourself and try to grow up more. You didn't get the help and support and experiences you needed as a child but you can find all that now.

_________________________
Et par le pouvoir d’un mot Je recommence ma vie, Je suis né pour te connaître, Pour te nommer
Liberté

And by the power of a single word I can begin my life again, I was born to know you, to name you
Freedom

Paul Eluard

Top
#386677 - 02/21/12 01:06 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: LandOfShadow]
Anthony39 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 345
Loc: Montreal, Canada
I am not capable to accept this and am also surprised to learn that this was a common occurence among some survivors. I don't know what to make of it. I can't pssibly be the only one who finds this disturbing.
I spent my childhood interfering between my perp and I so that he would leave my little brother alone. Thankfully he did.
As far as fantasies go i have fantasized about my perp in the past but never the reverse. That's just me.
I would like to know where we draw the line of what is acceptable to discuss and to what end more importantly?

There is a tribe in Pappua new Guinea where males live separate from women. When a male child reaches a certain age he leaves his mother and goes and live with the other men in a communal house. There the younger kids are used by the older as sex partners, for the adults. Everyone in the tribe goes through it. Does it make it right? is it cultural? is it acceptable? can we put our value system on this?
Well to me it is still abuse because in the end that tribe is just a small representation of the human experiment, and probably in time a social failure.

_________________________
Look up and not down; look forward and not back; look out and not in; and lend a hand.
E. E. Hale


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM213aMKTHg

Top
#386683 - 02/21/12 02:13 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Anthony39]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1283
Wow, Anthony - that really resonated. I spent my own childhood interfering as well - protecting my little sister (unfortunately NOT always successful). And I think my sexual development evolved similarly - embracing the subservient, passive role I was forced to assume with him. I chalked that up to survival, and sometimes wonder if I owe a debt of gratitude to little eric for doing what he could. Many people here at MS helped me see that (when I posted my "Dirty Little Hero" post in the Intro section), and sometimes I'm almost convinced they're right.

I'm not sure if we differ on this but this is how I see it and reconcile the issue with both myself and the forum. The experiences and after-effects of abuse are so incredibly varied that what if there are those who come here with a tendency to fantasize about children? For example, I don't - but then again, I didn't get lost in drugs or alcohol or prostitution, either. Does that make me any more or less valid than anyone else here? Does that make anyone who does suffer from attraction to kids any less valid? And if someone DOES have that attraction and fights those inner demons, are not they in fact heroes rather than monsters? Sexual proclivities cannot necessarily be altered - if they could be, I probably would not choose to be gay. Yet acting or not acting on them within the framework of what is socially acceptable is the only true mark of character. A pedophile who exercises restraint despite a sexual proclivity he cannot alter must be a truly tragic figure, yet a hero to those children he protects from himself. Would I have that strength if I were in his shoes?

If we turn them away, then what good are we to anyone other than ourselves? If we aren't strong enough now as adults to face those dragons, then my biggest fear is that those dragons will turn away and revisit the cycle of abuse on others. We cannot let that happen.

My perp went underground when he was caught. No one wanted to help him - only punish him. He became a pariah - a leper - in our neighborhood. And when he slinked down into his secret lair, he dragged me by the hair and took me with him for MONTHS and no one gave a F*CK!

Would I even be here if he could have been here first?????

As far as I'm concerned, this is disturbing stuff - it is not easy to discuss and takes a lot of courage on the part of those who come to us asking for help. Many of us have children, grandchildren , nieces, nephews, cousins, and know children who are neighbors and children of friends. Others can indulge in the indignation all they want, but if helping to guide someone keeps them from repeating the cycle on those kids, I'm there to help.

And if my own experience has taught me anything, I guarantee you that making them pariahs will make more victims like ME.

_________________________



Click my pic to see why I'm here

Top
#386684 - 02/21/12 02:20 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Chase Eric]
limit Offline


Registered: 04/23/11
Posts: 131
Quote:
I would like to know where we draw the line of what is acceptable to discuss and to what end more importantly?


well, ethically, you can think and believe what you like. because of our ethics, we allow you, in our subjective heads, to feel and think whatever you want. but subjectively, ethically, to us (those who allow freedom of expression/thought/etc regardless of controversy), you're confusing thought and action.

you're highlighting the actions of others to support your claim that the thoughts are disturbing. thoughts are neither good or bad. you are disturbed by the thoughts, that doesn't make the thoughts objectively disturbing.

people don't do better until they know better or they aren't sociopaths/psychopaths/etc.

i spent lots of my younger years beating the crap out of people and stealing and getting high and engaging in unhealthy behaviors and hurting people. it is easy to shove someone like me aside, but all you do is continue the problem. you can't fix a problem unless you address it. you can't stifle thought if you want to fix the actions that come from thought.

labeling the thought as anything - disturbing, fun, interesting, whatever - any label - is bound to backfire because it puts the power on the thoughts instead of on the actions. thoughts are morally ambiguous. you can think about whatever you want. no one is going to come in your head and punish you for any thought you have. actions are morally obligatory.

you seem to think that you can't accept that a person can think and believe whatever they want because it means supporting whatever it is they think about. i'm not sure that's healthy, either. suppression and stifling isn't going to get anybody anywhere.

denying people the permission to think what they want just creates an environment where, barring acceptance, they will act out, because they have no alternative.



Edited by limit (02/21/12 02:35 PM)

Top
#386685 - 02/21/12 02:24 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: limit]
limit Offline


Registered: 04/23/11
Posts: 131
is a pedophile who rapes children equal in character to a pedophile who has never raped a child?

break it down.


Top
#386686 - 02/21/12 02:30 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: limit]
limit Offline


Registered: 04/23/11
Posts: 131
i just want to add that debating ethics doesn't really sit well with me because ethically, imo, people are allowed to think and believe what they want. but the question was asked as to how we could ethically allow a discussion, so ... i hope that made any sense.


Top
#386687 - 02/21/12 02:32 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: limit]
limit Offline


Registered: 04/23/11
Posts: 131
Quote:
...................EQUALS.......................


yeah eric i realized after lol but i figured i would sacrifice accuracy if another explanation could be set so i left it, but yeah, we are p much communicating the same things here.


Top
#386708 - 02/21/12 03:23 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: limit]
Anthony39 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 345
Loc: Montreal, Canada
Limit,
Objectivity exists within a realm of consciousness based on social context with personal experience. Even objectivity is bound by rules . It is ironic that you chose Limit as your acronym.
Your ethics don't allow or prevent me from anything since you don't have control on what and how I feel.
I am not confusing thought and action. I know the difference between the two. I am questioning the implications of bringing up this topic in this forum. It may be a stretch but for me it is as if a holocaust survivor decided to post that he fantasizes of being a guard in a camp and beat prisoners, on a survivor website.
As far as pedophiles never having touched a child it depends. If they make use of child pornography, they are as equal in character as those who do touch children. If they live those fantasies in their heads and don't make use of child pornography then hopefully they are getting the help necessary to deal with the issues that bring about those thoughts.
I am not debating the ethics here. Realistically burrying the problem under silence and censorship is neither going to solve the issue nor make it disappear. I do question wether it is appropriate to bring this topic on this forum. Obviously it is since the post has not been removed. I can still voice my opinion. Is my opinion biased, certainly, on this particular subject, not because of blind hatred , but because I still cannot come to terms with my own abuse, because when I look at my prepubescent children, i find it offensive and even more puzzling as to why an adult would have any sexual interest in them.
I am a wildlife Biologist, I have also studied Anthropology and had the chance to study animal behaviour in the wild. I can tell you that in all my years of observations , there is no behaviour that cannot be explained, and that goes for us too. I will say that we are entering dangerous grounds when we tackle this subject. We have to be very careful and define what we want to achieve with this, and yes we have to set limits.

_________________________
Look up and not down; look forward and not back; look out and not in; and lend a hand.
E. E. Hale


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM213aMKTHg

Top
#386713 - 02/21/12 03:39 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Anthony39]
limit Offline


Registered: 04/23/11
Posts: 131
Quote:
Your ethics don't allow or prevent me from anything since you don't have control on what and how I feel.


they would inherently allow whether or not i could accept it. just like what you feel and believe affects how much of what i say you are willing to hear.

Quote:
hopefully they are getting the help necessary to deal with the issues that bring about those thoughts.

Quote:
Is my opinion biased, certainly, on this particular subject, not because of blind hatred , but because I still cannot come to terms with my own abuse


so, to me, none of this makes sense and is why i would be willing to accept a conversation about pedophilic thoughts.

how do you expect a pedophile to "hopefully get the help they need" if you suggest that they are not allowed to bring up their thoughts because of your own issues.

sensationalizing it by comparing it to holocaust survivors doesn't really do anything, because for me, the same thing would apply to a holocaust survivor. that they would feel and think something like that is definitely, absolutely worth discussing.

Quote:

Objectivity exists within a realm of consciousness based on social context with personal experience.


the fact that we are having this argument proves that it doesn't. the only objectivity is that everything is subjective. every human has a perception and that perception is so clear, they believe that it is true reality. true reality doesn't exist.

and that is my subjective opinion. that your opinion differs from mine is just the reinforcement of how subjective it is between each person. the objective reality is only that reality is a subjective sharing collective between a bunch of people who all interpret it in different ways.



Edited by limit (02/21/12 03:43 PM)

Top
#386721 - 02/21/12 04:38 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: limit]
Anthony39 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 345
Loc: Montreal, Canada
I would think that they need help by a professional therapist, something neither of us are.
Im not sensationalizing it by comparison, just one example that came to mind.. Also neither of us are Holocaust survivors so we don't know if they would approve or disprove of this thread.

The argument only shows that we have not defined the goals and objectives of the discussion, not that there is no objectivity. This discussion is all over the place.

Again I ask, What are we trying to achieve here? where are we going with this topic?

Somebody comes and posts that they have the same feelings. Ok so they found people that feel the same way. What now? What wisdom, what help can be given from other survivors on this particular subject?

_________________________
Look up and not down; look forward and not back; look out and not in; and lend a hand.
E. E. Hale


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM213aMKTHg

Top
#386728 - 02/21/12 06:27 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Anthony39]
limit Offline


Registered: 04/23/11
Posts: 131
Quote:
What are we trying to achieve here? where are we going with this topic?


the point of this forum is not that every single thread in it must serve a purpose. loads of people just make threads and vent, and there are tons of threads that don't even have replies. i think this thread is serving a valuable purpose. there is a reason why it is five pages long after all. nobody would talk if there was nothing important to say.

Quote:
we don't know if they would approve or disprove of this thread.


which is completely irrelevant. just because someone approves or disapproves or something doesn't mean it is not an important issue to discuss or bring up.

you say you're not having an ethical debate, merely discussing how appropriate it is to talk about this, but you are bringing ethics into it by "disapproving" of it and by subsequently saying how "controversial" and "inappropriate" it is - those are ethical judgments. deciding what is right and wrong to talk about is ethical.

Quote:
What now? What wisdom, what help can be given from other survivors on this particular subject?


how about the last i don't know five pages of responses which elucidate on many different people's opinions, viewpoints, some links to resources, ken singer himself coming on board and talking about it (without judgment, by the way - because hey, we actually have a board on here precisely for this very thing, it's called the At Risk forum), people engaging in debate at all.

it's healthy. it's good to examine. that's the wisdom, that's the help, that's the purpose of every thread on here.




Edited by limit (02/21/12 06:29 PM)

Top
#386779 - 02/22/12 01:25 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Anthony39]
Daniel_forgotten Offline


Registered: 02/07/09
Posts: 479
Originally Posted By: Anthony39
Somebody comes and posts that they have the same feelings. Ok so they found people that feel the same way. What now? What wisdom, what help can be given from other survivors on this particular subject?


the relief to know one is not alone in this battle.


Top
#386781 - 02/22/12 01:34 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Daniel_forgotten]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6815
Loc: USA
When a boy is forced to perform sexual acts on other boys, as a part of a pattern of abuse, then it leaves a tattoo on his soul. It's difficult to erase. It leaves scars which are part of PTSD* and not a sexual orientation. Perhaps therapists need to work out better techniques to deal with this kind of a problem. Maybe it's more disabling than having a leg blown off by an explosive device.

Just because a boy has scars like that, it doesn't mean that he will become a perpetrator himself. But it might be that other people will see his "tattoo" and think ill of him. It might even be that lots of therapists will not understand. It might also be that lots of people out there will think he's a bad person just because of his "tattoo". Maybe the boy will have a lot of trouble even talking about it later.

Perhaps some perpetrators are exceptionally cruel and purposely try to disable their victims by forcing them to perform sexual acts on other boys. If so, whose fault is it? Is the boy to blame because he was forced or coerced? Or even if the boy is cajoled into such acts and not actually forced, then if he is too young to make his own decisions, then he is still not to blame.

Where can a boy who has been mistreated that way find any help? Especially since a lot of therapists don't understand? And certainly the 'man in the street' doesn't understand.

Just my opinion. (quote Mickey Rooney)

Puffer

* Post Traumatic Stress Disorder



Edited by pufferfish (02/22/12 02:28 AM)

Top
#386785 - 02/22/12 03:36 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: pufferfish]
alone Offline


Registered: 03/05/09
Posts: 55






Edited by alone (03/12/12 08:53 AM)
Edit Reason: n/a

Top
#386800 - 02/22/12 09:45 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: alone]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1166
Loc: New York
Peace,Rainbows & Healing


Edited by lapchinj (03/17/13 09:27 PM)
_________________________
Forgiveness is giving up on the hope that what the past was could have been any different or better.
It's accepting the past for what it was, and using this moment and this time to help yourself move forward.

It will get better....

Top
#386806 - 02/22/12 10:12 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: alone]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1242
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
I have some attractions and I must say that this is a refreshing dialog to me. I've posted similar things in the past and only received flames back, so I think we're growing as a community, maybe. I think this thread is impressive and brave considering the site. I'm not seeing any tempers majorly flaring -- in what was posted at least.

Anyway, I don't have much to add but I just wanted it to be noted that not all who abuse children are pedophiles or attracted to them. In fact most are not. A lot of abusers just want to control and have power over people, and they cannot do that with people their size and age. So your abusers might not have even been pedophiles. Something to remember when thinking about how we offer treatment to pedophiles vs. other abusers.

I agree with the idea of offering treatment. I think it is important to try and help people pre-offense, but when I was seeking help for my attractions I was met with a brick wall unless I HAD offended. I must've met with 10 therapists (the first one at 17 years old, I think!) that gave me blank stares when I told them of my attractions and thoughts. It was so discouraging that on one hand society hated me and wanted me more than anything to change but on the other they cut off all sources of support in which to change because of the moral outrage.

My opinion is when society treats someone like dirt, they will live up to that expectation and act like dirt. I don't know how many desperate and lonely years I could get back had I met with a qualified therapist at 17. However, because of the emotionality, psychology is still too afraid to even touch this subject in research and whatnot out of fear of retribution via loss of funding.

Thank you everyone for being here and being so open. I appreciate all of the input and opinions on this thread. Of course it is obvious that there is no fault in the child when they are abused, and that people who do abuse should face consequences, but I think we as a society need to be realistic and remember that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. My goal is to stop abuse - and if that means having to talk about uncomfortable things, and potentially help those whose behaviors I hate, I'm for it if it means a kid doesn't have to live like I did from my abuse.

Thank you again, everyone!

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

Top
#386809 - 02/22/12 11:12 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: AndyJB2005]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1283
Originally Posted By: alone
I say this. End this miserable thread. It is going nowhere. It has offended, triggered, and possibly enraged. I deleted my posts above because I am tired and wasn't going to come back to this mess. The creator seems to have vanished after starting this one. Anthony39 is right. This thread is non-productive. It is a topic that just brings out opinions and tempers. And we all know about opinions. For me, I hope this thread ends now or very soon because I am done with it personally. It serves no purpose. Perhaps this is a line that must me drawn. By all means, someone draw it.

The strong deep feelings that this churns up argues precisely the opposite. We are not here to avert our eyes and pretend this does not exist - we are here to confront our deep issues, to grow and to heal. This is not a convention of self-deluding kidders; it is a virtual venue for open, honest and frank discussion.

_________________________



Click my pic to see why I'm here

Top
#386813 - 02/22/12 01:21 PM ***TRIGGER ALERT*** Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Chase Eric]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
.
sorry



Top
#386832 - 02/22/12 06:48 PM Re: ***TRIGGER ALERT*** Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: MarkK]
LandOfShadow Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 684
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
What a great post AndyJB2005. Well put.

I too am impressed this subject is being handled as well as it is. This has never happened here like this as I recall.

And I have to admit, hearing about "attractions to children" (which means different things I believe) puts me on high alert, but how can we of all people say silence, taboo and isolation is better? Huh??? It sure didn't work with my "abused issues", so I really don't think it's going to be a winning strategy with "abuser issues". In fact, talking about that, shining the bright light of day on it, is very protective of everyone, isn't it? Compared to the pain actual abuse causes a child, my discomfort hearing about your thoughts is nothing. DH, everyone, keep talking.

_________________________
Et par le pouvoir d’un mot Je recommence ma vie, Je suis né pour te connaître, Pour te nommer
Liberté

And by the power of a single word I can begin my life again, I was born to know you, to name you
Freedom

Paul Eluard

Top
#386844 - 02/22/12 09:16 PM Re: ***TRIGGER ALERT*** Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: LandOfShadow]
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5778
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
Here is the official definition of pedophilia (per the DSM-IV):

Diagnostic criteria for 302.2 Pedophilia
(cautionary statement)

A. Over a period of at least 6 months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 years or younger).

B. The person has acted on these urges, or the sexual urges or fantasies cause marked distress or interpersonal difficulty.

C. The person is at least age 16 years and at least 5 years older than the child or children in Criterion A.

Note: Do not include an individual in late adolescence involved in an ongoing sexual relationship with a 12- or 13-year-old.

Specify if:

Sexually Attracted to Males
Sexually Attracted to Females
Sexually Attracted to Both

Specify if:

Limited to Incest

Specify type:

Exclusive Type (attracted only to children)
Nonexclusive Type

Reprinted with permission from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition, Text Revision. Copyright 2000 American Psychiatric Association


Top
#386852 - 02/22/12 10:23 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: DarkHadou]
Avery46 Offline


Registered: 09/23/10
Posts: 1243
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: DarkHadou
...BTW, I never did anything inappropriate, it's only being attracted to them, mentally and physically I can relate to them more.


DH, I applaud your courage in posting your thoughts and feelings.

For me, I believe you - I read and re-read your very first entry which I quoted you above.

I too was infected by the abuse I survived so much that my relationships and sexual activities were confusing. As I am untangling the confusion and cleaning up mess of my life - I am experiencing my authentic sexuality/being.

I am very glad we here at MS are talking about this issue.

Bravo, to DH especially but to us all for sticking to this issue and supporting DH and each other.

Peace,
Avery

_________________________
aka DJsport

Top
#386853 - 02/22/12 10:31 PM Re: ***TRIGGER ALERT*** Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1283
Originally Posted By: Ken Singer
Here is the official definition of pedophilia (per the DSM-IV)...

...Please note that this is NOT directed at Ken - he is only putting out there what the DSM-IV says...
By that definition, the 15 year old who molested me and my 7 year old sister was not a pedophile. Maybe that's why he was never turned in to the authorities - the parents were told he couldn't be prosecuted? I'm uncharacteristically going to hazard a guess that the wise professionals who came up with that formula never experienced CSA?

When I was 12, I could easily pass as 10, and my 15 year old abuser could grow a full beard. If anyone walked in on us, they'd see a twenty year old on a ten year old. But reduced to such convenient numbers, I guess it wasn't that bad after all. In fact, two parameters said it was not pedophilia so it wasn't - right? In six months he was 16 and I was still 12, so only the five-year age difference definition applied and so it was still not pedophilia. Yet the actual age difference was much more benign than the physiological reality. I was a little boy and he was a man by any definition except perhaps those of the "experts"...

I don't mean to be flip, but such quantification seems to best define parameters for those who care to look just that far.

_________________________



Click my pic to see why I'm here

Top
#386866 - 02/22/12 11:59 PM Re: ***TRIGGER ALERT*** Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Chase Eric]
limit Offline


Registered: 04/23/11
Posts: 131
@chase eric:

pedophile is a diagnosis as well as a de>


Edited by limit (02/23/12 12:05 AM)

Top
#386867 - 02/23/12 12:07 AM Re: ***TRIGGER ALERT*** Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: limit]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1283
@Limit:

Precisely. I think we just said essentially the same thing (except I did not mention DH but agree with you on your assessment).

_________________________



Click my pic to see why I'm here

Top
#386869 - 02/23/12 12:28 AM Re:I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Chase Eric]
alone Offline


Registered: 03/05/09
Posts: 55
.



Edited by alone (03/12/12 08:52 AM)
Edit Reason: n/a

Top
#386871 - 02/23/12 12:30 AM Re: ***TRIGGER ALERT*** Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Chase Eric]
limit Offline


Registered: 04/23/11
Posts: 131
@ chase eric:

ya, that was kind of a long-winded i-agree lol. i just wanted to add that basically, no - he wasn't a pedophile. but that isn't really relevant to how he abused you and how it affected you.

i guess terms like this only exist bc of the law. you need to define something somewhere. i think punishing a 50 year old for raping a 12 year old is inherently different than punishing a 15 year old for raping a 12 year old. you know what i mean?

a 15 year old is not cognitively adult, and does not cognitively understand the world around them the way an adult does. i am thinking of myself at 15 and the things i used to do, and how i am so different now bc i have the experience of being an adult and that my brain has developed more completely.

the power dynamics between a 15 year old losing control and raping a 12 year old are different than the dynamics between a 50 year old who rapes a 12 year old, in the eyes of the law. the 15 year old's brain is not as developed as the 50 year old's, which forces the law to look at how to appropriately punish the 15 year old for a crime that he doesn't "fit" the definition to.

the law tries to distinguish things like that. the thing is, the law is a generalization applied to individual situations. so it comes off coldly a lot of the time, and misses a lot of the little minor fluctuations.

shit, an 18 year old is considered an adult...are you serious? at 18 i was drunk every day and could barely put 2 + 2 together. the definitions of adulthood and childhood and teenagehood are all very arbitrary and i think they are purely legal definitions, tbh, to reflect that children and adults see the world differently and that is not the child's fault, bc the child's brain is still developing.

it's all a bunch of legal bs, basically. because even though you have this 15 year old who is obviously different from a 50 year old, the fact of the matter is, you still have a power dynamic going when that 15 year old is large enough, and smart enough to overpower a younger child they are obviously sexually attracted to. the child knows even less, their brain is even less developed than the 15 year old's, and the 15 year old knows what they are doing is wrong, whereas the 12 year old might not even comprehend what is happening.

it is tough. both to legally define and to enforce. i have heard stories of child on child rape, and it is hard to legally understand where to come down on that, but each individual situation is different. how do you punish a 10 year old who rapes a 7 year old? what if SA was in both their histories? what if... i mean you know? so the law doesn't recognize stuff like that, which is why it all more often than not gets shoved aside and ignored. even if the 10 year old was a sociopath (something i have witnessed myself) who was deliberately doing it on purpose and knew what they were doing. you know?

i don't think you can really summarize the power dynamics age have on abuse with something as easy as "this is an adult, this is a child." bc the lines get blurred. not all rape happens between an adult and a child, there are things that fall in the middle, and then you have to judge it based on how you perceived the event, and what happened, which the law often does not.



Edited by limit (02/23/12 12:33 AM)

Top
#386872 - 02/23/12 12:31 AM Re: ***TRIGGER ALERT*** Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: limit]
limit Offline


Registered: 04/23/11
Posts: 131
Quote:
So we are to believe that every human being alive on this planet if they have had even just one fleeting inappropriate sexually related thought about someone under the age of 18 no matter how mild it may be, then they are a pedophile.


that is not the definition of pedophilia, there is a definition posted by ken singer up on the top. pedophilia is inherently a prolonged, long-term sexual attraction to children [under the age of 13] that negatively impacts you or others, and that this attraction is experienced by an adult, toward a child.

if you have had sexual attraction to children for longer than a couple of years and it has negatively impacted either yourself, or another child, and you are an adult - then yes, you are a pedophile. pedophile in this instance is not being used as a moral judgment, and nowhere did i make a moral judgment, neither did ken singer. the definition is simply what is stated.



Edited by limit (02/23/12 12:33 AM)

Top
#386880 - 02/23/12 01:01 AM Re: ***TRIGGER ALERT*** Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: limit]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1283
@Limit

Thought I would just add something about the dynamic. When I was 12 and my molester was 15/16, I knew it was wrong even more than he did. Or maybe he just didn't care. I mean he not only had me - and I was just a little boy physiologically - but he had a lot of 7-8 year old girls all over the neighborhood. When I saw what he was doing to them - even though I hadn't hit full sexual maturity - I knew it was dead wrong and did everything I could to stop it (short of going to an adult for fear that my own shameful acts with him would be uncovered). I think I had the edge over him when it came to intelligence - or maybe just a common sense of right and wrong.

_________________________



Click my pic to see why I'm here

Top
#386892 - 02/23/12 02:48 AM Re: ***TRIGGER ALERT*** Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Chase Eric]
Daniel_forgotten Offline


Registered: 02/07/09
Posts: 479
lol omg.. stop elaborating stuff. a lot of us are fuvked up.. do we deserve to like.. die? ok. maybe. i ve been trying you know.. i just ended up in hospital every time. maybe you the guys who got it all right can help me...


Top
#386910 - 02/23/12 09:14 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Daniel_forgotten]
alone Offline


Registered: 03/05/09
Posts: 55
.



Edited by alone (03/12/12 08:51 AM)
Edit Reason: n/a

Top
#386916 - 02/23/12 10:05 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: alone]
Dar Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/15/11
Posts: 170
Loc: Missouri
I have been following this since the start and I am very new to this sort of topic. So if I sound a little off beat, I am sorry.

I have worried and now have grave concerns about DH.

Has anyone else noticed that DH has all but dissapaered since his last post on the 19th?

Has anyone else thought that maybe DH has already acted out on his thoughts and might be looking for answers as to WHY.

Has anyone else noticed that DH tends to go into hiding from MS for longs periods of time after posting. Like 1 to 2 months at a time. Where does he go?

Call me crazy (and many have) but I feel that there is more to this than just his thoughts.

These are just my feelings guys.

DH if your out there speak up please.

_________________________
All I ever wanted was a hug.

Top
#386928 - 02/23/12 12:12 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: alone]
LandOfShadow Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 684
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
Originally Posted By: alone
I wasn't this way before 12 years old. I wasn't born with it. Yes, "just thoughts" are there that I detest. I would never harm a child. In 2010, I considered just ending everything just to get away from the "just thoughts". Obviously, I'm here and now understand that that was not the way to go. By the definition posted in this thread of a pedophile, I do not and will not believe that I fit that profile.

Alone, I believe you. I believe you. I believe you. You were NOT born this way. You are not... Alone. Please don't end everything.

By "just thoughts"... I'm just trying to make room for opening up about all this, so that, in the language of the DSM that's suddenly so important now, we can try to show how "severely impacts your life" can be reduced, and even made "not severe impact at all". I've done that with my abuse "stuff" (admittedly not an "attraction to children") but I think it works similarly. Opening up and talking about it is key to getting started. But labeling people a pedophile stops that cold. Duh!!! Indeed, DH seems to be long gone. Maybe not. DarkHadou? Please come back and talk to us... As I said, I sincerely think you can change a lot of this in your life, but you need a safe place to talk it all out at length.

Daniel forgotten said some things that have been important to me and I think other survivors I heard talk about this too (though rarely because it's so difficult):

Originally Posted By: Daniel_forgotten
i have the impression the reason this post is so controversial is that more than one here have dealt with this issue at some point in their lives.

Agree very much.

Originally Posted By: Daniel_forgotten
However, when i'm with a woman I feel I am abusing her (I have never remotely forced any woman, it just feels that way)

Me too. I had this going on with my last girlfriend for about 6 months. It's partly the thoughts .vs. behavior thing. Past .vs. present, typical PTSD confusion. I kept asking her if I was hurting her... Too many times, because she finally said with a pained look, "You're really quite respectful! Ok??? I think I'd let you know if you were hurting me." So I've gotten good at tolerating the thoughts of "Am I hurting her?" if that shows up, and trusting instead my perception of myself (I indeed AM quite respectful) and different from the abuse, if someone doesn't like what I'm doing, they can say so, and I will stop it immediately. No danger at all. Indeed, that makes a lot of room for fun and pleasure.

Originally Posted By: Daniel_forgotten

And this is a hard confession to make, I also have some issues with children. I can't say it is attraction and it isn't even about the child itself. It's some form of ... reflection of myself at that age. I still find extremely arousing the idea of my dad and me when I was younger than 10. .......Sometimes when I see a little boy I see myself reflected and feel that kind of .. attraction? it is not attraction but i will use that word for lack of a better one.

Yeah. A lot of men have this going on I think, but the "knee jerk reaction" prevails over and over. And shuts this down cold. That really isn't helpful.

So I'm left to wonder... just what is going on here for him? I want him to... Slow it down and look at it, study it, carefully. What is "attraction" anyway? Is it "attraction" now? Or memory of "attraction" in the past? Or both? Can he separate and distinguish them? What is sexual? Is it the erotic feelings and unavoidable male arousal that comes from an abusive sexual situation? Or a present moment urge? And then, no matter what is going on, no matter what thoughts he has, can he make good choices about how to act? Lots to consider there but... I've learned to know and trust, it's not a problem for me. I'm safe. In me. With others. I won't hurt anyone.

I think growing up, a boy has something like 10 years to explore and practice all this. Hidden, silent abuse and unavailable, neglectful adults made this impossible at the time for me. Our culture is way too silent about sex and abuse (different things!), and full of various "knee jerk reactions" when it's not silent.

I just wish we could make learning and healing possible, whatever age it happens at, and not keep doing the same old abusive stuff over and over. Enough Penn States.

_________________________
Et par le pouvoir d’un mot Je recommence ma vie, Je suis né pour te connaître, Pour te nommer
Liberté

And by the power of a single word I can begin my life again, I was born to know you, to name you
Freedom

Paul Eluard

Top
#386972 - 02/23/12 07:59 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Dar]
Survivinguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 310
Loc: Colorado
I had every intention of avoiding a post on this thread and it pains me that I'm contributing to the thread staying active but a couple things have bothered me to the point that I can't ignore it.

The whole line about having pervasive, continuous thoughts about something makes you into something just reeks of the mob mentality/generalization approach. If someone has pervasive fantasies over a long period of time about killing someone, does that make them a psychopath? Does that make them a murderer? Careful how you answer because I imagine it's a safe bet that a good many survivors have fantasized of harming or killing their abusers.

The other comment that I found disconcerting I quote here:

Originally Posted By: Dar
I have worried and now have grave concerns about DH.


I am staying in the mindset that the post was of genuine concern for a fellow survivor and not intended to accuse DH of being a perpetrator. The list of reasons for concern (ie: disappears for months at a time, hasn't posted in a couple days) are characteristic of most MS members with exception of moderators who check in daily. We need to be careful in our posts and replies - if a post were perceived as particularly accusatory, it could result in unintended harm. If you believe there is a reason for special outreach - perhaps a PM (private message) to the member would be more appropriate.

Heal well,

_________________________
Survivinguy

============================================
I have to survive and I hope to thrive.

Alumni Dahlonega WoR May 2010
Alumni Sequoia WoR March 2012

Top
#386973 - 02/23/12 08:21 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Survivinguy]
limit Offline


Registered: 04/23/11
Posts: 131
Quote:
If someone has pervasive fantasies over a long period of time about killing someone, does that make them a psychopath?


look up the diagnostic criteria for psychopath. a psychopath is different than a murderer. why is everybody confusing all of this crap? a pedophile is different than a child rapist. ugdfhgsfdlkgjdfg.

you do realize that these definitions don't do anything except help the cause, right? and that all of this defensive bs is being onslaughted against people who are ON YOUR SIDE. UGH.

and yes, i agree about DH. that is a ridiculous assumption. i take breaks from the forum for months. the forum is an online website that deals with sensitive shit. of course people take breaks and if i had posted this thread i'd probably take a fucking break too because of all the people whining about how "wrong" and "controversial" it is.


Top
#386974 - 02/23/12 08:22 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: limit]
limit Offline


Registered: 04/23/11
Posts: 131
pedophile and psychopath are not MORAL JUDGMENTS. RHEGDHSGKLSFJSDFOSIGHSDOG. HAVING A THOUGHT DOES NOT MAKE YOU A PERSON WHO COMMITS THE ACTIONS OF THOSE THOUGHTS. YES. THERE ARE DISORDERS CLASSIFIED PURELY BY INTRUSIVE DEVIANT THOUGHTS. laugh



Edited by limit (02/23/12 08:28 PM)

Top
#386975 - 02/23/12 08:25 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: limit]
limit Offline


Registered: 04/23/11
Posts: 131
just so you know, the main diagnostic criteria for PTSD also includes INTRUSIVE THOUGHTS ABOUT TRAUMA. ugh FFS!!!!! THINKING =/= ACTING!!!!!! CAN I GET THAT IN A BIG NEON SIGN??? maybe i'll get a tattoo. lol.


Top
#386985 - 02/23/12 10:04 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Survivinguy]
Dar Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/15/11
Posts: 170
Loc: Missouri
Survivinguy,
Yes I am very concerned about DH, I dont always articulate the best when using a key board for my meanings. Sorry about that.

I beleive that DH is in need of help and might just be crying out for it in the only way he knows how to or can.

It is just that DH started a couple of threads and then vanished, does concern me. It woulld be no differant than if a friend asked you for help (that being MS forums) and then when you tried to help them............... There gone. Where did the friend go? Are they in trouble and need help?

I am simply worried as I would hope someone would be for me if I vanished.

Blessings

_________________________
All I ever wanted was a hug.

Top
#386996 - 02/23/12 10:59 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Dar]
Jim1104 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/16/11
Posts: 407
Loc: Louisiana, USA
I have had the same concern as you about Dh, Dar.

_________________________
Jim
Male/USA

Top
#387003 - 02/23/12 11:36 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Jim1104]
alone Offline


Registered: 03/05/09
Posts: 55





Edited by alone (03/12/12 08:49 AM)
Edit Reason: n/a

Top
#387026 - 02/24/12 04:54 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Dar]
DarkHadou Offline


Registered: 10/13/10
Posts: 117
Originally Posted By: Dar
I have been following this since the start and I am very new to this sort of topic. So if I sound a little off beat, I am sorry.

I have worried and now have grave concerns about DH.

Has anyone else noticed that DH has all but dissapaered since his last post on the 19th?

Has anyone else thought that maybe DH has already acted out on his thoughts and might be looking for answers as to WHY.

Has anyone else noticed that DH tends to go into hiding from MS for longs periods of time after posting. Like 1 to 2 months at a time. Where does he go?

Call me crazy (and many have) but I feel that there is more to this than just his thoughts.

These are just my feelings guys.

DH if your out there speak up please.



Just cause I stopped responding here doesn't mean I "acted out my thoughts." That's ridiculous to say. I don't use this website every single day. I mostly only use it when I start thinking about the abuse and feel the need to post.


Top
#387031 - 02/24/12 05:18 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: DarkHadou]
Dar Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/15/11
Posts: 170
Loc: Missouri
Thank you for responding DH, my heart feels better now knowing you are ok.:)
Sorry if I upset you, It has been a hard month for me and I was just worried about you.

_________________________
All I ever wanted was a hug.

Top
#387036 - 02/24/12 05:39 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: alone]
limit Offline


Registered: 04/23/11
Posts: 131
Quote:
I wish the therapist or psychiatrist would have just said this to me. And I don't have any idea why I didn't look it up for myself. Such a few words that can help so much. Maybe they just assumed I knew. Age sure doesn't mean I know everything nor will I ever.


i think it's ridiculous everybody is getting bent out of shape over disorders "classified by intrusive thoughts" like they think that means if you think once or twice about something that it automatically makes you whatever, or even that having sexual thoughts about something means that you are even attracted to it.

shit, if that were the case, i'd probably be 20 thousand other kinds of fucked up. abuse fucks you up sexually. i am sure everybody here has had sexual thoughts from their abuser, to their wife, to their cat. that's the point of abuse, it sexualizes things. even just having thoughts doesn't necessarily indicate attraction.

it is a very limited and specific scope. a pedophile is a person who has a prolonged, legitimate, sexual attraction to children that is beyond the fucked upness of ordinary fleeting thoughts. they are intrusive thoughts about sexual relationships with kids, probably made more intrusive by the fact that society considers those thoughts wrong to begin with.

i will give you an example. when i was a kid i used to be really bigoted. i grew up with a racist and was constantly beat up because i was obviously "gay" and that manifested as racism and homophobia. i didn't even understand what those terms were. i didn't understand why i was wrong, i didn't understand that it meant hate, i didn't understand any of that. i didn't hate anybody, it was mostly fear and unresolved abuse shit.

so when i started talking about my thoughts, instead of people saying "well, why do you think like this? why is that? what's happening? let's talk about it and figure it out" people were more or less the exact same as people are on here. holy fuck, throw a blanket on it, get it away from me, set it on fire, jfc!

it was fucking ridiculous. i had no IDEA what the hell the problem was, only now, i couldn't discuss it, because it was WRONG to talk about. so i was stuck inside my own head, i couldn't get information from outside, i couldn't figure it out. what the fuck else was i supposed to do? i kept on thinking like that. it wasn't addressed at all. i called a group of people an ugly name in highschool and got the shit beat out of me for it. i mean it was ignorance, i didn't get it.

it isn't the same situation, but you know what i mean? nothing good comes out of ignoring shit like this. a lot of trouble could have been saved if someone had taken the time to ask what the hell was going on instead of just saying "you think bad things, so you are a horribly bad person, and we will ignore you."

and you know what is really funny? i got over the racism issues. but i didn't get over the homophobia issues, because to this day when i bring it up people assume that it means i hate gay people and that i want to hurt them and i want to go out and call them names and fling hate all over them and the only reason i'm bringing it up is so i can express just how much i hate them when it has NOTHING TO DO WITH HATE.

it is the paradigm between thought & action. people assume i will automatically engage in bad behavior just because i have bad thoughts, like i can't recognize my thoughts and beliefs are fucked up or irrational or illogical or any number of things. people have told me over the years "yeah well it's irrational because..." i know! i know that! lol. you know?

i have went a lot off topic but i am just trying to illustrate here. all i was ever taught about it was "gay people are wrong and you are gay so you are wrong and now we will go through this whole thing where you suffer for it" and as a child that manifested as "okay, i hate gay people, cause it's their fault." and when i expressed this, because what the hell else am i supposed to express? - i was then told "yeah well that's wrong." so why's it wrong? "because you're full of hate and you're horrible and fuck off and die."

it is so. not. helpful.

which is why i think it is so important to examine thoughts like this in people instead of pushing them aside or ignoring them. alone, when we started talking about this candidly, both you and daniel_forgotten started posting about how we should all really just shut up and blah blah i mean it was so defensive and full of shame, but honestly, i think this is a good thing.

it's good to get it out there. the embarrassment and shame comes from what people tell you about what you think. nobody can tell anyone else or judge anyone else from their thoughts alone. actions matter. i can say whatever i want.

and, just in general:

from me, anyway, i can't speak to anyone else, but there is no moral judgment going on here. i don't think it is wrong to have thoughts. it just isn't. it isn't about right or wrong for me. being a pedophile or a psychopath isn't about "right or wrong".

when i was 16 i fit every diagnostic criteria of psychopath, just so you know. i still struggle with a lot of it on a day to day basis. which is why it is so very black and white to me, because it has to be, all the time. so what does that say about me? by my inaction despite my thoughts? you know. so it is pretty much in a similar spectrum, for me.

to me, the way a psychopath thinks about murder and homicide is much different than the way an abuse victim would fantasize about killing their abuser. it is less about revenge or anger and more about impulsiveness, rage, and lack of empathy. that last one is the biggest indicator of psychopathy actually, and the whole disorder is on a whole less about "evil killer" and more about lack of empathy.

there are loads of psychopaths/sociopaths/aspds around who don't kill. just like there are loads of pedophiles out there who don't rape children. absolutely. is it destructive and harmful? yeah. it's destructive and harmful for me to relate with being a psychopath and i don't even frigging talk to people because of it. it's destructive and harmful just existing this way, period.

i can relate with being a psychopath. it doesn't say anything about me other than that is what i think and how i process the world around me. and while not a pedophile, i am absolutely certain it is so much more than just "i had a thought about a little kid" when it comes to pedophilia. just like it is so much more than just "oh, i want to kill that guy" when it comes to being a psychopath.

it is NOT that simple. to me it says a lot about a person's character what they do with their thoughts, moreso than it does based on the thoughts.



Edited by limit (02/24/12 07:30 AM)

Top
#387078 - 02/24/12 01:42 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: limit]
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5778
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
This is a fascinating discussion and people feel so strongly about the topic. I'm glad to hear DH that you are not MIA.

I think that the people who developed the definition of pedophilia were operating from a perspective about behaviors and perhaps mostly observed convicted sexual offenders. (By the way, the new version of the DSM-V is coming out in the next few years and it is not a simple process. Some of my colleagues in the sexual abuser treatment and research field are on a couple of committees for the American Psychiatric Association defining the diagnoses that make up the DSMs. The process is very tedious and incorporates minutia of definitions that are ridiculously long. The debates tend to be pretty heated, but that's another story.)

Survivor issues tend to be in the category of PTSD definitions. And that's only been the case for sexual abuse survivors for a few years. The PTSD definitions are probably going to reflect the recent changes in the military for all the veterans who are now diagnosed with PTSD.

If the developers of the definitions of pedophilia were to talk with the survivors around here, they might have more information to adjust the pedophilia definition to allow the thoughts/feelings of survivors such as what is airing here.

The process of sexual victimization of a child can result in pleasurable feelings, confusion, and at times, sexual identity confusion. Think of all the men who are attracted to penises or random sex with males. Some are in a sense fixated with the power of the penis of their abusers and may recreate the abuse dynamics of that powerful sexual stimulation/orgasm and be attracted to older men for example. Others may act out by seeking attention from other men and use or control them by becoming prostitutes.

If a man seeks out sexual relations with another male and sees himself as heterosexual, does it really mean he is homosexual or bisexual? Perhaps, but many just want the rush of an anonymous encounter for the sexual stimulation/gratification rather than a caring/loving relationship that may more characterize the person who is truly gay.

I think the definition of pedophilia, whether it is recurrent behaviors or thoughts, is probably not reflective of most survivors. Unfortunately, the definition may include many who are NOT pedophiles but have some characteristic of the definition. Just like the person who engages in a sexual act with a man is not necessarily homosexual (but can be), the act of looking at gay porn, thoughts/fantasies of sex with men, or even gay behaviors does not necessarily make the person homosexual.

Quote:
it is the paradigm between thought & action. people assume i will automatically engage in bad behavior just because i have bad thoughts


I agree with Limit. It is important to not label yourself as bad or damaged because of thoughts. Take into consideration that the child who is abused by a teenager may feel an attraction or need to control that person and reverse the position they were in as a helpless child. Similarly, the abused child growing up, may want to identify with the aggressor and look at some children like sexual objects as he once was.

All in all, the definition of pedophilia probably is not something someone should look at if he were abused as a child. It's not a simple answer and the complexity of the impact of sexual abuse should make that clear.

Hope this eases some of the concerns.
Ken


Top
#387081 - 02/24/12 01:58 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
Obi Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 1286
Loc: kansas
Agreed, Ken.

Problem is the social stigma attached to that word. Even being proven beyond a shadow of doubt of being falsely accused of being a pedophile, as was the case with my folks, that the disgust of it can permanently label a person for it,even the ones innocent of such things and/or only having thoughts.

I'll admit that when I first read this thread that I was creeped out, but reading all the replies reminded me of what my folks went through and the wrongful accusations and harassment they suffered because of it.

_________________________
live another day. climb a little higher.

my story

my vlog

Top
#387093 - 02/24/12 04:29 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
Mr. Ken,

I don't think these ideas are going to quell angst, and rightful discrimination against men that are turned on, aroused (or fantasize about) by teens, preteens or younger. The DSM committees settled on the pedophile definition for a reason. I bet the reason is the large majority of people that have these thoughts about children end up offending. NAMBLA's disgusting organization was kicked out of some Gay Pride parades. NAMBLA is a pedophile apology organization for those who don't know. Yes, they are a real outfit. Most have kicked them out of everything but they still exist. I have study this bunch and they are pedophiles to say the least that wish to legalize men and boys having sex. This simple fact is: It's not a gay issue; it's a pedophile issue. 1 in 6 boys are raped and 1 in 4 (or 1 in 5) girls are raped by pedophiles. It's rape not "molestating" per the FBI's definition.

Even the Supreme Court didn't think teens discussing sex on the internet amongst themselves was illegal, but it was amongst themselves. That example is that society does have a valid concern about men (or women) thinking such things and have every right to be concerned about such behavior.

It is not a crime to think such things, however, it should be discouraged, and certainly is by 99% of society. Men (and women) that have these thoughts should seek professional help. Yeah, that's why pedophilia is in the DSM. Is pedophilia bad thoughts? The DSM apparently thinks so. They did remove the "gay is bad" years ago so please don't bring up that ridiculous argument. It's no a gay issue; it's a pedophile issue.

An old saying, as you think so you are. If you think these type of things, you really shouldn't be around kids. The temptation is just too great. Limit is probably one of the few that fought such thoughts successfully. It's really sad he had to fight these things because he is a CSA Survivor. And, it's exactly why pedophilia-based behaviour should continue to receive society's scorn. It's not Limit's fault he thinks this. It is Limit's responsibility to make sure he doesn't actually do it. It is definitely the pedophile(s) who abused Limit responsibility as to why Limit thinks this way. That is exactly how Limit got to having such thoughts. Yet, another reason why offending pedophiles should receive severe punishment like Life in Prison. How else to stop the cycle but remove these individuals from society so they are no longer predators? The therapy argument instead for pedophiles is utterly ridiculous. Why is the hell should I pay to "reform" (which no one believes even works) pedophiles that rape a kid?

Do pedophiles "love" the kids they abuse? Nope. It's rape. We all know rape is about power.

Should people that don't offend be shameful about having such thoughts as the DSM provides? If I did, I would. If no shame, what's to stop someone from actually doing it? In the end, this is not a complicated issue to discern that people should fight like hell against it, get professional help for it and pay dearly if they rape some kid. I'd be willing to bet the writers of the DSM agree wholeheartedly with at least the first two points of my argument if not all three. Peace.

Note: Limit, you should be commended for fighting such thoughts. Awesome job, man. All should fight those thoughts with as much vigor and courage as you did rather than give in to them and rape a kid. Kudos!

----
President Bill Clinton made sure the UN did not have anything to do with NAMBLA or any other promoter of pedophilia:

The North American Man/Boy Love Association (NAMBLA) is a pedophile and pedarasty advocacy organization in the United States that works to abolish age of consent laws decriminalizing adult sexual contact with minors.

In 1993, the International Lesbian and Gay Association achieved United Nations consultative status. NAMBLA's membership in ILGA drew heavy criticism and caused the suspension of ILGA. Republican Senator Jesse Helms proposed a bill to withhold $119 million in U.N. contributions until U.S. President Bill Clinton could certify that "no UN agency grants any official status, accreditation, or recognition to any organization which promotes, condones, or seeks the legalization of pedophilia, that is, the sexual abuse of children".

Finally in 1994 the International Lesbian & Gay Association finally banned the NAMBLA from their group. (B)

sources:

(A) http://www.glbtq.com/social-sciences/nam…
(B) http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=SYWOb…
--------



Edited by phoenix321 (02/24/12 04:36 PM)
Edit Reason: add
_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

Top
#387099 - 02/24/12 05:27 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: phoenix321]
limit Offline


Registered: 04/23/11
Posts: 131
just for clarification: i wasn't the pedophile in the discussion. though, as you've said, there are thoughts i struggle with every day which i have brought up to compare and analyze.

such as i've stated, for example, the lack of care i feel toward others and the fact that i wouldn't care if i killed them. the violence inside of me, the bpd-rage (this is my instinctive "everybody hates me, you hate me, you can't express that you love me enough so that i will believe you, accuse, accuse, accuse" attachment stuff) clearly this comparison was a decent one.

my point in comparing was that, as you've said, i've fought my thoughts and my cognitive distortions and my negative thinking and my flaws. shit, i fight my flaws every single day i'm alive. it's taken me 40 years to learn empathy and even now, it manifests as primitive rage on the behalf of others.

i feel empathy toward people who i can relate with. i suppose that is why i have come down so hard on this thread, in a way, it is a manifestation of my empathy. i can relate with having thoughts others deem "bad". i can relate with having feelings that others deem "bad".

if i were to go into it right now i am sure no one would feel particularly inclined to talk to me ever again. i honestly feel very little about other people. it is an extreme lack of empathy. my affect is very shallow. the best way that i can help or support another person is to provide them with information. i cannot comfort or sympathize.

i feel humor, sarcasm, anger, sadness, fear, but they are all about me. people tell me they've done things like have children or gotten married and i could care less. people tell me they've been raped as a child and emotionally? i could care less.

the best empathy i can accomplish is by relating to others. and it has taken me a whole life time to learn how to do even that much. it is a silly form of primitive altruism. i care about others because it relates to or benefits myself.

my morality is almost entirely intellectualized based on what i understand about our society which is why i argue ethics so precisely, because in my mind, it has already been argued out a thousand times. i exist on ethical argument, that is how i exist without hurting other people.

i am not a pedophile, nor do i apologize for people who rape children (legalizing sex with children goes beyond the realm of thought and into the realm of action and behavior, as well as does founding a society based on this) or who believe that raping children is right (which is a personal moral conflict - intellectual and somewhat personal as i understand how abuse negatively impacts others).

but i know what it is like to have issues that society does not want to deal with. i don't have the desire to rape children. i would never participate in a community that advocated for the rape of children. but you know what? i would participate in a community that advocated for the right of everyone to be able to think freely what they wish without condemnation, so that what they think can be examined in a judgment-free zone. absolutely.


Top
#387117 - 02/24/12 07:13 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: limit]
limit Offline


Registered: 04/23/11
Posts: 131
by the way, i would just like to argue, from the point of view that if i were a pedophile and you were referring to me (and for the purposes of this argument i will instead talk from my perspective with negative thoughts, which is that of a more violent variety rather than a rapist/pedophile variety):

Quote:
It is Limit's responsibility to make sure he doesn't actually do it. It is definitely the pedophile(s) who abused Limit responsibility as to why Limit thinks this way.


my thoughts are my responsibility, always. regardless of what i think, it is still always my responsibility. as an adult man living in today's society, i am absolutely responsible for my thoughts. this is the reason why i don't act on my thoughts - because i take responsibility for them.

this is also an argument that is present in ken's speech, and is something i disagree with. he stated something to the effect that if a person was abused, pedophilia might not apply to them. i absolutely disagree. abuse is not an excuse, nor does it relieve you of responsibility to yourself, your thoughts, and your actions.

you can absolutely be an abuse victim who has become a pedophile. in fact, i would suggest that pedophilia is inherently more common in those who have been abused, because the fact of the matter is, you are exposed to pedophilia when you are abused. the exposure creates the program. you can't create a program out of something that doesn't exist.

(note: this is different than vampirism, which is to say that those who are abused will go on to abuse others, but i inherently disagree with some of this as well, in that i honestly believe everyone continues the cycle of abuse in some way, either toward themselves or toward others.)

if someone held a gun to my head and told me to kill someone else or they'd shoot me, and i shot that person, i would not ethically consider that to be the same as murder, but i would not say that i am not responsible for my decision. the fact of the matter is, i was given a choice, and that choice was not of my own choosing, but i am responsible for how i handle the choice.

the same thing goes for thoughts. i have tried many times to just "feel" empathy, to just "focus" on other people, to just "not care", or "not defend" or "not be violent" - and so have, i assume, many pedophiles have tried to "not think about it" - and it doesn't work too well. it is repression and stifling and silence, and ultimately useless.

Quote:
That is exactly how Limit got to having such thoughts.


i don't know how i got to being the way i am, in terms of the types of thoughts i exhibit, which are different than pedophilia entirely (and more in line with ASPD). i would suggest it is a product of the environment i grew up in, and my genetic predisposition (my father was a likely ASPD/BPD/schizophrenic as well).

regardless of how it happened, i am an adult, and that responsibility is mine. my father is dead. it doesn't matter how it happened, it doesn't matter that it wasn't fair, it doesn't matter that it could have been prevented - it is still my responsibility to take care of. it does no use sitting in the corner blaming my dad while justifying my own thoughts.

Quote:
Yet, another reason why offending pedophiles should receive severe punishment like Life in Prison. How else to stop the cycle but remove these individuals from society so they are no longer predators?


that doesn't stop the cycle of abuse. it just continues it somewhere else: in prison. those who are In Prison are not automatically exempt from human society. inmates are humans as well, and often times, the cycle of rape and abuse very well continues behind bars. it just becomes someone else's problem. we don't have to deal with it. shove it away.

Quote:
The therapy argument instead for pedophiles is utterly ridiculous. Why is the hell should I pay to "reform" (which no one believes even works) pedophiles that rape a kid?


well, i am sure that had i received therapy in my youth for Conduct Disorder, i would probably be capable of a much greater extent of empathy and emotion than i am right now. if someone now took the time to deal with me and my problems i am sure, because i am not treatment resistant, that i would make more progress than i am making.

it is like saying you might as well lock someone with BPD up behind bars. there are only a percentage of people with BPD who cannot be treated and that is because they do not want to be treated. just like there are only a percentage of those who are pedophiles who cannot or do not want to be treated.

i am sure if there were a more widely available spectrum of therapy for those who struggle with pedophilic urges and thoughts, that was done under an accepting and judgment-free environment (and you can say that this "exists now" and "does not work" but let me tell you - it doesn't exist now, because society as a whole does not allow it to exist without moral judgment), that there would be a marginally reduced rate of action. absolutely.

& finally,

thank you. even though i recognize the sentiment was directed at the wrong sort of "thoughts", to me, it still sort of applies in a way, though to different thoughts. so, thank you for the acknowledgment. i appreciate it a lot.



Edited by limit (02/24/12 07:21 PM)
Edit Reason: forgot to say thank you

Top
#387142 - 02/24/12 11:24 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: limit]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
Dear Limit,

That's what you posted. If I got it wrong regarding yourself, I apologize.

Limit, I was referring to pedophiles that have offended with regards to "treatment". I thought I made that clear. I have never read that works.

I personally will not apologize to saying pedophiles that rape a kid deserve harsh treatment. Male or female. My thought is life in prison and they must submit to being studied. I really don't care the reason why a pedo raped. I'm actually preparing a complaint to several of our useless Senators demanding pedophiles (offenders) get exactly that and do not get Social Security disability either.

Child rape ruins people's lives. MS proves that beyond any doubt. It certainly did mine and many others I've met over the years. I have no use for child rapists. Period. Yes, life in prison. They are sequestered. Sorry, it's their problem. We don't need these monsters roaming the countryside. Our justice system has coddled child rapists for too long.

There was a bunch of child rapists who went to court to get sent back to jail because they had no where to live because of sex offender laws. I believe it was NJ. They were living under a big bridge. The comments regarding this news story was overwhelmingly, so sad, too bad, they should've gotten death or life or worse. The judge refused to send them to jail and said, "tough, that's your problem not the court's." Absolutely, positively right. American society owes them nothing, nada, zippo but life behind bars. Prison sucks. It's bad. They shouldn't have raped a kid (many kids probably) in the first place.

I'm actually quite liberal and don't believe in the death penalty for murder. Life in prison can be handed out like candy to violent criminals in my opinion. Including those poor little women teachers in Texas who raped a kid as an example.

A person's rights end where another person's rights begin.

The thought police has no place in society. Many people with CSA get left behind in society with regards to professional help. I looked high and low for it and didn't find it or was lied to.

I'm a Bipolar. Was a bad one at times. I spent money, lots of money, had fun, etc. but, didn't hurt anyone doing it. BPD treatment does have a track record. It's tough. But there's is help for it. I have never heard of a successful therapy for pedophilia (offenders). The shrinks and psychiatrists over the years said they didn't think there was one either. I asked. Offenders not just people thinking it.

I believe people can conquer thinking anything and remove it from their lives. It's not fair. I met terrible schizophrenics that did it. Have seen those with OCD do it. They have medication for a lot of things that helps.

Pedophilia as just thoughts belongs in the purview of the professionals that are trained to deal with such things not a therapist that treats anything and has no skill regarding any discipline. I believe in universal health care so help should be extended to all suffers (and CSA as well). However, pedophilia as a free standing disability should not be. That sucks. Yeah, well, life sucks. Nobody is expendable but society definitely thinks some are. But, considering pedophilia as a deep offense to society, thought or offending, is a good thing if it protects one kid from getting raped and living a life full of shit. That includes that disgusting kiddie porn too.

_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

Top
#387181 - 02/25/12 05:42 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: phoenix321]
limit Offline


Registered: 04/23/11
Posts: 131
you keep talking about child rapists. pedophiles and child rapists are not the same thing. having pedophilic urges does not make a person a child rapist. you keep saying you disagree with being the thought police, yet insinuate that a person having specific thoughts is a "deep offense on society". that is essential "policing".

Quote:
But, considering pedophilia as a deep offense to society, thought or offending, is a good thing if it protects one kid from getting raped and living a life full of shit.


that is the point. considering pedophilic thoughts as blasphemous does nothing to protect children from rape. it continues the problem, only this time, those who may possibly be capable of help and treatment prior to offense are left in the dark without any ability to receive help due to their so called, erm, deep offense to society.

all you need to do is look at the statistics for child rape and my point becomes evident. silence at any point does no good either for the child or for a pedophile who has urges.

Quote:
Pedophilia as just thoughts belongs in the purview of the professionals that are trained to deal with such things


that doesn't help anyone anywhere. it is basically permission to keep up the oppressive environment where no one can speak of anything in their mind again, prior to offense. again, you keep bringing up child rape. pedophilia and child rape are two different things.

arguing that child rape is wrong while bashing pedophiles is an irrelevant argument because it insinuates that thoughts automatically equal action. you don't just "apply" a definition to a group of people that "only" applies to specific other people. how does that help?

it is like the stigma attached to BPD. most people do not want to be BPD or have BPD because people consider people with BPD to be automatically abusive or annoying or grating or whatever. there are treatment-capable, non-abusive BPDs out there. just like there are treatment-capable, non-abusive pedophiles out there. just like there are treatment-capable schizophrenics out there.

it has nothing to do with recognition as a disability. ASPD - antisocial personality disorder (psychopathy, sociopathy) is also a mental illness as defined by the DSM. there are ASPDs who don't go around killing other people. ASPD as a set of inherent traits and functions doesn't "just" apply to the treating therapist.

Quote:
I believe people can conquer thinking anything and remove it from their lives. It's not fair.


which is the entire point of my argument. it is not fair to ostracize someone for their thoughts. actions? yes. you rape a child, people think you are bad - i'm okay with that. i understand that. it makes sense to me. child rape is ethically repugnant.

but insinuating that a pedophile (which is defined inherently by thoughts first, followed by action, as you think before you act) is automatically a sex offender is just that - ostracizing. it is silence and shaming. people think things every day. if i were punished for every thought i had as being bad i might as well just jump off a bridge right now.

i would absolutely prefer a pedophile to be out in the open, discussing their beliefs and urges, and subsequently not raping a child and learning to identify their issues, rather than a pedophile who is not allowed to discuss their beliefs or their urges, and who feels there is no outlet for what is inside of them.

having no outlet and being stigmatized is a stressor. stressors make people act out just as much as their initial thoughts do. pressure, stress, hate, fear, shame, silence. the dichotomy is remarkable. pedophilia is inherently an abuse issue, imo, and it should be treated like an abuse issue.

i wish people who had pedophilic urges were not suddenly considered lepors. it would do a lot more good in the long run in preventing more abuse from happening. abuse starves when the light is shined on it. you know that? the more you examine and look at abuse, the less power it has. why would you want to give anyone the opportunity to sit around ruminating in the dark? when you could shine the truth light on them and get it all out in the open.

abuse thrives under secrecy. from both ends.



Edited by limit (02/25/12 06:01 AM)

Top
#387233 - 02/25/12 03:25 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: limit]
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5778
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
I had hoped the previous post I made would clarify some of the issues in this thread. The definition of pedophilia from the DSM-IV was made because it is used around here, way too casually. "Pedophile priests", "child rapists", "sexual predators" are terms some people throw around without talking about distinctions between the terms (or really understanding what the terms mean.)

Let's say that a considerable portion of people are considered "mentally ill". That term may be accurate to describing persons who range from the anxious, the eccentric, the obsessive-compulsive, the sociopathic serial killer, etc. However, many times a diagnosis is made for insurance purposes. As a term, mentally ill may incorporate all these persons.

The term "sexual offender" constitutes technically, those who have been adjudicated of a sexual offense in a court of law. The largest professional group, which I am a member of, is the Association for the Treatment of Sexual Abusers since there are abusers who have not been adjudicated and that covers the term more accurately than "offenders". So, we start with abusers, who constitute a diverse population of statutory rapists, adolescent abusers, child reactive to the abuse they encounter, exhibitionists, voyeurs, child rapists, incest offenders, pedophiles, etc.

Like "mentally ill", the terms should be more properly defined if you want to know what you are dealing with and perhaps, if you are a mental health specialist, how to treat the person.

Just as members of the MaleSurvivor community have different experiences and attitudes towards their abusers (or perpetrators in general), I think we need to not judge those who may, in the opinion of others, be "soft" on perpetrators or politically incorrect because they still love the person who abused them. I realized many years ago that one can't assume that all victims/survivors hate their abusers. The experience of being abused does not automatically condemn a person to abuse others or have a life of misery and despair.

Now a word about thoughts. Limit wrote:
Quote:
i would absolutely prefer a pedophile to be out in the open, discussing their beliefs and urges, and subsequently not raping a child and learning to identify their issues, rather than a pedophile who is not allowed to discuss their beliefs or their urges, and who feels there is no outlet for what is inside of them.


First of all, I spent some time having an email dialog with a "boy lover" who was an administrator on a "boy chat" website. His philosophy was that pedophilia was a sexual orientation just like heterosexuality or homosexuality. He believed that prepubescent and adolescent children had the "right" to form relationships with adults, even sexual ones. He even proposed that when a child and a man engaged in a relationship that the man should ask the parents to approve the kind of relationship that the boy wanted to have. Among other nonsense that this guy (an educated man and a retired pilot for an airline) wrote about (he sent me his self-published e-book) represented, in my opinion, a distorted and self-serving philosophy.

He dismissed my experience with survivors as being part of a money-making industry of therapists who convinced men that their experiences being "abused" was wrong and harmful. As long as the adult didn't force or coerce the child, it was ok. Needless to say, the conversation was frustrating and went nowhere.

That said, I have always believed that PREVENTION of sexual abuse is the goal of every professional involved in the sexual abuse field.

Primary prevention like vaccination is preventing the illness BEFORE it strikes. Programs like Child Assault Prevention (CAP) operate in schools in many states and a number of countries around the world to help children learn assertiveness skills and recognize when someone is trying to abuse them. I have been on the advisory board of CAP for more than a dozen years and want to see it expanded so no child has to experience abuse or bullying.

Secondary prevention is treating people who are abused to help them avoid or ameliorate the problems from the abuse. Sometimes, the abuse can cause them to abuse others, but that is only a small minority of cases. In any event, people who are reading this and many others are in treatment trying to deal with the aftermath of the abuse which can lead to feelings (anxiety, depression, inadequacy and a host of other emotions which create problems for the individual and loved ones), beliefs ("I'm worthless", "Nobody wants damaged goods", etc), and behaviors (acting out, suicidal gestures, interpersonal problems, and others.

Tertiary prevention- is treating abusers so they won't abuse again. One can argue that all sexual abusers should be jailed for life, but how would the child feel if his grandfather went to prison for life, or the parent of a young adult were to be jailed for the next 60 years? I'm not here to debate sentencing recommendations but in my 33 years of experience treating thousands of juvenile and adult sexual abusers, I've found relatively few who re-offend, particularly with treatment.

Some mentally ill persons may be dangerous, even kill others. Some sexual abusers may be very dangerous (and despite prison sentences, will abuse others again- that is why there are sexual commitment laws in most states, so that if an offender, at the end of his prison sentence is found to be still a threat to offend again, they are civilly committed in that they are involuntarily imprisoned until the therapists feel they are good to go.)

The point of this long-winded posting is to help tone down the emotions here and to put some perspective on the discussion.


Top
#387239 - 02/25/12 04:39 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
limit Offline


Registered: 04/23/11
Posts: 131
Quote:
First of all, I spent some time having an email dialog with a "boy lover" who was an administrator on a "boy chat" website. His philosophy was that pedophilia was a sexual orientation just like heterosexuality or homosexuality. He believed that prepubescent and adolescent children had the "right" to form relationships with adults, even sexual ones.


which is not really related to the concepts that i presented lol because i agree with everything you just wrote. it's self-serving and it's a justification to abuse. that isn't the same thing as having pedophilic thoughts or urges.

and i would argue that founding an organization dedicated to the "legalization" of a "pedophile sexual orientation" is absolutely beyond the realm of "thoughts and urges about attraction to children" and firmly into "an action based on those thoughts" (trying to convince others to legalize child rape goes beyond "i feel these urges/think these things" and into behavior or action) or a "justification of those thoughts" which represents an entirely different debate altogether.

just because i say that we should have an open forum to discuss people's thoughts and urges, doesn't mean that it's a forum to justify those thoughts and urges as potentially correct actions (which would then, if properly legally justified, would no longer constitute thought, but action, and as well, the idea that it would lead to an open forum where pedophiles essentially try and convince everyone they are right - which also leads into behavior).

(i also don't mean to suggest we should just open up a forum right here right now - as it is up to the mods to decide what sort of "forum" they run. what i do mean to suggest is that when it comes up, like it has right now, that people don't just say "yeah well fuck off we don't need you, you're so wrong and bad and gross and this is so inappropriate" like what we have seen in this thread, which is ultimately not helpful.)

but at the same time, as much as we're repulsed by the idea of justifying such thoughts, people do have the right to freedom of expression. so it is absolutely a slippery slope, and it's hard to ethically define the lines.

but what you're talking about up there is unrelated to what i'm trying to get across. you've stated on numerous occasions that this thread is fascinating and interesting, you've also been gracious about DH and his thoughts/feelings. the fact that there is an "at risk" forum within this community also backs my assertion up, which is that you also agree with the viewpoint that just because someone has a thought about attraction to children doesn't morally define their character and that thoughts and actions are separate.

(hence the whole "DSM bla bla bla bla" thing that's going on there - because obviously there is a difference between a pedophile and a child rapist, including the fact that not all child rapists may be pedophiles, but simply sexually psychopathic deviants.)

i think not judging people for their initial thoughts and urges (and when i speak of this, let me be clear, i do not refer to "boylovers" or "people who want to legalize/justify child rape", i mean people like DH who started this thread - because that is what i mean by a thought or an urge about abusing someone else, the rest falls into behavior) is part of primary and absolutely part of tertiary prevention.

how can you help an abuser or potential pedophile work through their thoughts and feelings if you simultaneously tell them that their thoughts and feelings are wrong and that they are bad because of it? and furthermore that they are not allowed to talk about it?

it's the same thing with people here. everybody's like "yeah well no one should talk about that on this forum they all need to see a therapist" - well, one could argue that years ago, that is exactly how it was with sexual abuse victims. shut up, we don't want to hear it, take it to a therapist so they can listen to your spew of bs.



Edited by limit (02/25/12 04:49 PM)

Top
#387240 - 02/25/12 04:49 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: limit]
Jim1104 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/16/11
Posts: 407
Loc: Louisiana, USA
DH:

Since I said that I had the same concerns as Dar, just want to clarify. If my agreement upset you in any way, I am sorry.

I projected my own typical reactions on you. I didn't really think about you acting out, but had I posted something and gotten the initial reactions that you did, I probably would have gone into figurative hiding for a while. That may not be you, but it is me. I was glad to see you posting elswhere.

Just concerned for you.

Jim

_________________________
Jim
Male/USA

Top
#387244 - 02/25/12 05:28 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Jim1104]
Jim1104 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/16/11
Posts: 407
Loc: Louisiana, USA
Just a note to you guys. I have really been upset by all the talk here about pedophilia and the nuances of definitions and stuff. In fact, I got really mad, but didn't know what exactly to say. My feelings caused nobody here any harm, but I do apologize that the discussion caused me to be angry at several guys here.

I don't think I have ever had an attraction to pre-teens. In my early twenties, I still had fantasies about kids I grew up with, but I really thought of this as being attracted to guys my age. I think somewhere I have said, but will say it here also that the only person I have been physically sexual with is my wife. I used to take great pride in that until I got into online stuff. It has only recently really hit my recollection that I was raped/abused/whatever you want to call it, when I was 12/13 and again 18. I think also something happened once or twice when I was drunk after all that.

But somehow, thinking of pedophilia or the other one related to teenagers as being a condition/characteristic that could be diagnosed without acting on it at all just really upset me. Jesus said that just lusting after a woman constituted adultery. That would kind of make lusting after a teenager mean I had essentially committed the act (in the spiritual), even if I haven't done it in the physical. I don't know, it's just kind of made me feel dirty and sick. (from a logical standpoint, I can wrap my head around the truth that i am guilty of nothing) So, I will probably not look much at this thread anymore, but then again, I might. I really need to lear to distinguish between thoughts and actions.

Ultimately, regardless of what I want to hear or read, the fact is the discussion about the real meaning of pedophilia, etc. has been good.

Sorry to ramble.



Edited by Jim1104 (02/25/12 06:30 PM)
_________________________
Jim
Male/USA

Top
#387247 - 02/25/12 05:46 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Jim1104]
limit Offline


Registered: 04/23/11
Posts: 131
Quote:
That would kind of make lusting after a teenager mean I had essentially committed the act (in the spiritual)


that isn't what it means.

plz refer here where this was already addressed:

Quote:

i think it's ridiculous everybody is getting bent out of shape over disorders "classified by intrusive thoughts" like they think that means if you think once or twice about something that it automatically makes you whatever, or even that having sexual thoughts about something means that you are even attracted to it.

shit, if that were the case, i'd probably be 20 thousand other kinds of fucked up. abuse fucks you up sexually. i am sure everybody here has had sexual thoughts from their abuser, to their wife, to their cat. that's the point of abuse, it sexualizes things. even just having thoughts doesn't necessarily indicate attraction.

it is a very limited and specific scope. a pedophile is a person who has a prolonged, legitimate, sexual attraction to children that is beyond the fucked upness of ordinary fleeting thoughts. they are intrusive thoughts about sexual relationships with kids, probably made more intrusive by the fact that society considers those thoughts wrong to begin with.


having "a couple thoughts" or "some fantasies that dissipated" doesn't constitute pedophilia which is defined by the dsm above.

regardless of whether or not someone is a pedophile, the fact of the matter is: that these sorts of thoughts and urges should not be treated like leprosy or the plague. i wish people would get clear on the meaning between a thought & urge, and an action, versus all of that and its moral relation to a person's character.

the point in defining pedophilia that clearly is basically the stuff i talked about above. you don't label someone a pedophile if they have a couple of fantasies. that is the whole point of defining it at all. so that you begin to talk about actual pedophiles instead of people who had that thought that one time about some girl because they were going through their own abuse issues.

you don't label someone a pedophile if they have a fleeting thought. in fact, you don't label someone a pedophile unless these thoughts are intrusive, go on longer than six months, are about an age that is specifically defined (re: an adult fantasizing about someone under the age of 13 due to an attraction to children as defined by, obviously, attraction to child-like characteristics not present in adults, lack of sexual development, etc), and significantly impact your life.

that last one is also important. right now i no longer meet the criteria to be diagnosed as ASPD (using hare's checklist), but when i was a teenager, i certainly could have. the biggest indicator of that was that it significantly impacted my life. it significantly impacted everything i do. and it still does.

it is still misery living like this, because my lack of empathy is still there, my violence is still there, and it is hard to exist this way, and it impacts more than you can know. that isn't some impassioned speech for people to feel sorry for me, but i'm trying to put it into terms people can understand: this shit is life-fucking-devastating.

it isn't just That Fantasy Once that ppl talk about when they mention pedophiles. and, anyway, WHO CARES? who cares if it's a pedophile, or if it's a child thinking about raping another child their age, or if it's an adult who wants to rape another adult, or if it's anyone who wants to abuse or hurt anyone else - those thoughts need to be put out in the open nonjudgmentally.

ABUSE THRIVES IN SILENCE



Edited by limit (02/25/12 05:53 PM)

Top
#387252 - 02/25/12 06:37 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
Originally Posted By: Ken Singer, LCSW
Tertiary prevention- is treating abusers so they won't abuse again. One can argue that all sexual abusers should be jailed for life, but how would the child feel if his grandfather went to prison for life, or the parent of a young adult were to be jailed for the next 60 years? I'm not here to debate sentencing recommendations but in my 33 years of experience treating thousands of juvenile and adult sexual abusers, I've found relatively few who re-offend, particularly with treatment.


Yeah, Ken, Adults (18+) get life in prison for child rape including the kiddie porn creators. No exceptions. Male or female. Child rape is a crime, a sick crime that is more violent than rapes of adults. Far too often their victims get life in their own prison. The stats I've read don't support the recidivism rate you claim. Canada's Victims of Violence claims the recidivism rate can't possibly be known. Makes sense to me when the FBI says only 1 in 10 are reported in the first place. How many less get even get a day in jail? I'm not budging on it. And, I'm not alone in this quest either. I really don't care if people think it (and hope they get help with it). Only if they do it. If you think it, you should worry about life in prison. If that makes people mad, well, tough.

http://www.victimsofviolence.on.ca/rev2/...5&Itemid=45

Here's more from Protecting Children from Child Predators:

More than 1/2 of all convicted sex offenders are sent back to prison within a year. Within 2 years, 77.9% are back. -California Department of Corrections.

"The serial killer has the same personality characteristics as the sex offender against children." -Dr. Mace Knapp, Nevada State Prison Psychologist.

• 50% of reported child molestations involve the use of physical force and child molesters produce as much visible physical injury as rapists-39% of victims.
-Dr. Gene Abel in a National Institute of Mental Health Study.

• About 14% of child victimizers carried a weapon during the violent crime, compared to nearly 1/2 of those who victimized adults.
-BJS Survey of State Prison Inmates, 1991.

• About 10% of violent offenders with child victims received life or death sentences and the average prison term was 11 years, somewhat shorter average sentences than received by those with adult victims.
-BJS Survey of State Prison Inmates, 1991.

• More than 1/2 of all convicted sex offenders are sent back to prison within a year. Within 2 years, 77.9% are back.
-California Department of Corrections.

• Recidivism rates range from 18-45%. The more violent the crime the more likelihood of repeating.
-Studies by the state of Washington.

• 3 in 10 child victimizers reported that they had committed their crimes against multiple victims: they were more likely than those who victimized adults to have had multiple victims.
-BJS Survey of State Prison Inmates, 1991.

• Like rape, child molestation is one of the most underreported crimes: only 1-10% are ever disclosed.
-FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin.

• The behavior is highly repetitive, to the point of compulsion, rather than resulting from a lack of judgment.
-Dr. Ann Burges, Dr. Nicholas Groth, et al. in a study of imprisoned offenders

http://www.yellodyno.com/html/child_molester_stats.html

_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

Top
#387272 - 02/25/12 09:15 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: phoenix321]
DarkHadou Offline


Registered: 10/13/10
Posts: 117
I have more in common with a 15 year old than a 27 year old female. My personality is similar to her, what she is interested in, I just find it boring to be this age, people already married my age, have kids, etc... I like preteens and don't want to change that, I just don't find girls my age that attractive compared to a 15 year old.



Edited by DarkHadou (02/25/12 09:17 PM)

Top
#387275 - 02/25/12 09:43 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: phoenix321]
Jim1104 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/16/11
Posts: 407
Loc: Louisiana, USA
Oh, hell, editing using an iPhone is impossibly.

I obviously did not state my point accurately. I know in my intellect, Limit, that my emotional reaction to the term does not fit the real definitions. I don't need to read what you so eloquently already said. I agree with it.

Words, however, have literal meaning an connotations. Pedophile has been equated with child molester for for so long that when someone says the word, I have a negative emotional faction. I honestly didn't know the real definition until ken posted it.

But, you know what? Logic doesn't always win in my head. If it did, then I wouldn't be on this forum trying to fix my f'd up head. So, sometimes it takes me a lot of work to reprogram my inaccurate emotional reactions to be in line with the facts. That is all and I was trying to convey my discomfort with the discussion.



Edited by Jim1104 (02/26/12 12:30 AM)
_________________________
Jim
Male/USA

Top
#387298 - 02/26/12 12:16 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Jim1104]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1166
Loc: New York
Peace,Rainbows & Healing


Edited by lapchinj (03/17/13 09:25 PM)
_________________________
Forgiveness is giving up on the hope that what the past was could have been any different or better.
It's accepting the past for what it was, and using this moment and this time to help yourself move forward.

It will get better....

Top
#387302 - 02/26/12 02:09 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: lapchinj]
limit Offline


Registered: 04/23/11
Posts: 131
Quote:
I know in my intellect, Limit, that my emotional reaction to the term does not fit the real definitions.


the reason i restated was because i felt bad that i, obviously, being a proponent of the definitions, contributed to what lead to your feeling singled out, uncomfortable or accused. to me, the definitions sort of prove the basis of the fact that quite simply it's beyond idle fantasy.

and i think it's something that needs to be restated anyway, as there are loads of people who seem to believe along the same vein as you that somehow because there are disorders based on cognitive processes, that if you so happen to look at, glance at, fleetingly-think-about something, it means you have that disorder or you have that problem.

which is crap, because otherwise we'd all be psychopathic pedophiles.



Edited by limit (02/26/12 02:11 AM)

Top
#431634 - 04/18/13 03:34 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
lukedamien Offline


Registered: 04/05/13
Posts: 68
Is a lcsw like being a therapist? I'm interested in finding out some things about this. I'm not crazy but somebody has been explaining to me how I don't have to be crazy to see one.

Top
#431635 - 04/18/13 03:58 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: DarkHadou]
peroperic2009 Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/11
Posts: 3600
Loc: South-East Europe
Hey Luke, LCSW is abbreviation from Licensed Clinical Social Worker, according to wikipedia such persons are educated in psychotherapy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_credentials_in_psychology

I hope someone with more knowledge could help us here.

Pero
_________________________
My story

Top
#431636 - 04/18/13 04:05 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: peroperic2009]
lukedamien Offline


Registered: 04/05/13
Posts: 68
smile

Thank you.

Top
#431682 - 04/18/13 04:48 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: DarkHadou]
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5778
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
I'm not sure of what I can add to the discussion regarding LCSW.
Social workers can be a college graduates. Many social workers get a start in child protective services, an entry level job. Because the job is pretty intense, a lot don't make it and bail out after a year or so. Some go on to take administrative jobs with a bit more experience and others go on to grad school.

The LCSW is, to my knowledge, a masters' level that requires certification plus experience and additional training. In addition, LCSWs are required to get continuing education credits on a yearly basis.

It's no guarantee that a LCSW is any more competent than a masters' level psychologist or LPC (licensed professional counselor). Best to interview the therapist using the "Consumer's Guide to Therapist Shopping". Be aware that the therapist who is too busy to answer your questions is probably someone who may be very competent in treatment but is not maybe a good fit for you.

Hope this answers your questions.

Top
#431701 - 04/18/13 09:49 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: DarkHadou]
GT13568 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/02/11
Posts: 123
Loc: California
Edited


Edited by GT13568 (04/18/13 11:51 PM)

Top
Page 1 of 10 1 2 3 ... 9 10 >


Moderator:  ModTeam, TJ jeff 

I agree that my access and use of the MaleSurvivor discussion forums and chat room is subject to the terms of this Agreement. AND the sole discretion of MaleSurvivor.
I agree that my use of MaleSurvivor resources are AT-WILL, and that my posting privileges may be terminated at any time, and for any reason by MaleSurvivor.