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#387233 - 02/25/12 03:25 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: limit]
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5779
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
I had hoped the previous post I made would clarify some of the issues in this thread. The definition of pedophilia from the DSM-IV was made because it is used around here, way too casually. "Pedophile priests", "child rapists", "sexual predators" are terms some people throw around without talking about distinctions between the terms (or really understanding what the terms mean.)

Let's say that a considerable portion of people are considered "mentally ill". That term may be accurate to describing persons who range from the anxious, the eccentric, the obsessive-compulsive, the sociopathic serial killer, etc. However, many times a diagnosis is made for insurance purposes. As a term, mentally ill may incorporate all these persons.

The term "sexual offender" constitutes technically, those who have been adjudicated of a sexual offense in a court of law. The largest professional group, which I am a member of, is the Association for the Treatment of Sexual Abusers since there are abusers who have not been adjudicated and that covers the term more accurately than "offenders". So, we start with abusers, who constitute a diverse population of statutory rapists, adolescent abusers, child reactive to the abuse they encounter, exhibitionists, voyeurs, child rapists, incest offenders, pedophiles, etc.

Like "mentally ill", the terms should be more properly defined if you want to know what you are dealing with and perhaps, if you are a mental health specialist, how to treat the person.

Just as members of the MaleSurvivor community have different experiences and attitudes towards their abusers (or perpetrators in general), I think we need to not judge those who may, in the opinion of others, be "soft" on perpetrators or politically incorrect because they still love the person who abused them. I realized many years ago that one can't assume that all victims/survivors hate their abusers. The experience of being abused does not automatically condemn a person to abuse others or have a life of misery and despair.

Now a word about thoughts. Limit wrote:
Quote:
i would absolutely prefer a pedophile to be out in the open, discussing their beliefs and urges, and subsequently not raping a child and learning to identify their issues, rather than a pedophile who is not allowed to discuss their beliefs or their urges, and who feels there is no outlet for what is inside of them.


First of all, I spent some time having an email dialog with a "boy lover" who was an administrator on a "boy chat" website. His philosophy was that pedophilia was a sexual orientation just like heterosexuality or homosexuality. He believed that prepubescent and adolescent children had the "right" to form relationships with adults, even sexual ones. He even proposed that when a child and a man engaged in a relationship that the man should ask the parents to approve the kind of relationship that the boy wanted to have. Among other nonsense that this guy (an educated man and a retired pilot for an airline) wrote about (he sent me his self-published e-book) represented, in my opinion, a distorted and self-serving philosophy.

He dismissed my experience with survivors as being part of a money-making industry of therapists who convinced men that their experiences being "abused" was wrong and harmful. As long as the adult didn't force or coerce the child, it was ok. Needless to say, the conversation was frustrating and went nowhere.

That said, I have always believed that PREVENTION of sexual abuse is the goal of every professional involved in the sexual abuse field.

Primary prevention like vaccination is preventing the illness BEFORE it strikes. Programs like Child Assault Prevention (CAP) operate in schools in many states and a number of countries around the world to help children learn assertiveness skills and recognize when someone is trying to abuse them. I have been on the advisory board of CAP for more than a dozen years and want to see it expanded so no child has to experience abuse or bullying.

Secondary prevention is treating people who are abused to help them avoid or ameliorate the problems from the abuse. Sometimes, the abuse can cause them to abuse others, but that is only a small minority of cases. In any event, people who are reading this and many others are in treatment trying to deal with the aftermath of the abuse which can lead to feelings (anxiety, depression, inadequacy and a host of other emotions which create problems for the individual and loved ones), beliefs ("I'm worthless", "Nobody wants damaged goods", etc), and behaviors (acting out, suicidal gestures, interpersonal problems, and others.

Tertiary prevention- is treating abusers so they won't abuse again. One can argue that all sexual abusers should be jailed for life, but how would the child feel if his grandfather went to prison for life, or the parent of a young adult were to be jailed for the next 60 years? I'm not here to debate sentencing recommendations but in my 33 years of experience treating thousands of juvenile and adult sexual abusers, I've found relatively few who re-offend, particularly with treatment.

Some mentally ill persons may be dangerous, even kill others. Some sexual abusers may be very dangerous (and despite prison sentences, will abuse others again- that is why there are sexual commitment laws in most states, so that if an offender, at the end of his prison sentence is found to be still a threat to offend again, they are civilly committed in that they are involuntarily imprisoned until the therapists feel they are good to go.)

The point of this long-winded posting is to help tone down the emotions here and to put some perspective on the discussion.


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#387239 - 02/25/12 04:39 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
limit Offline


Registered: 04/23/11
Posts: 131
Quote:
First of all, I spent some time having an email dialog with a "boy lover" who was an administrator on a "boy chat" website. His philosophy was that pedophilia was a sexual orientation just like heterosexuality or homosexuality. He believed that prepubescent and adolescent children had the "right" to form relationships with adults, even sexual ones.


which is not really related to the concepts that i presented lol because i agree with everything you just wrote. it's self-serving and it's a justification to abuse. that isn't the same thing as having pedophilic thoughts or urges.

and i would argue that founding an organization dedicated to the "legalization" of a "pedophile sexual orientation" is absolutely beyond the realm of "thoughts and urges about attraction to children" and firmly into "an action based on those thoughts" (trying to convince others to legalize child rape goes beyond "i feel these urges/think these things" and into behavior or action) or a "justification of those thoughts" which represents an entirely different debate altogether.

just because i say that we should have an open forum to discuss people's thoughts and urges, doesn't mean that it's a forum to justify those thoughts and urges as potentially correct actions (which would then, if properly legally justified, would no longer constitute thought, but action, and as well, the idea that it would lead to an open forum where pedophiles essentially try and convince everyone they are right - which also leads into behavior).

(i also don't mean to suggest we should just open up a forum right here right now - as it is up to the mods to decide what sort of "forum" they run. what i do mean to suggest is that when it comes up, like it has right now, that people don't just say "yeah well fuck off we don't need you, you're so wrong and bad and gross and this is so inappropriate" like what we have seen in this thread, which is ultimately not helpful.)

but at the same time, as much as we're repulsed by the idea of justifying such thoughts, people do have the right to freedom of expression. so it is absolutely a slippery slope, and it's hard to ethically define the lines.

but what you're talking about up there is unrelated to what i'm trying to get across. you've stated on numerous occasions that this thread is fascinating and interesting, you've also been gracious about DH and his thoughts/feelings. the fact that there is an "at risk" forum within this community also backs my assertion up, which is that you also agree with the viewpoint that just because someone has a thought about attraction to children doesn't morally define their character and that thoughts and actions are separate.

(hence the whole "DSM bla bla bla bla" thing that's going on there - because obviously there is a difference between a pedophile and a child rapist, including the fact that not all child rapists may be pedophiles, but simply sexually psychopathic deviants.)

i think not judging people for their initial thoughts and urges (and when i speak of this, let me be clear, i do not refer to "boylovers" or "people who want to legalize/justify child rape", i mean people like DH who started this thread - because that is what i mean by a thought or an urge about abusing someone else, the rest falls into behavior) is part of primary and absolutely part of tertiary prevention.

how can you help an abuser or potential pedophile work through their thoughts and feelings if you simultaneously tell them that their thoughts and feelings are wrong and that they are bad because of it? and furthermore that they are not allowed to talk about it?

it's the same thing with people here. everybody's like "yeah well no one should talk about that on this forum they all need to see a therapist" - well, one could argue that years ago, that is exactly how it was with sexual abuse victims. shut up, we don't want to hear it, take it to a therapist so they can listen to your spew of bs.



Edited by limit (02/25/12 04:49 PM)

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#387240 - 02/25/12 04:49 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: limit]
Jim1104 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/16/11
Posts: 409
Loc: Louisiana, USA
DH:

Since I said that I had the same concerns as Dar, just want to clarify. If my agreement upset you in any way, I am sorry.

I projected my own typical reactions on you. I didn't really think about you acting out, but had I posted something and gotten the initial reactions that you did, I probably would have gone into figurative hiding for a while. That may not be you, but it is me. I was glad to see you posting elswhere.

Just concerned for you.

Jim

_________________________
Jim
Male/USA

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#387244 - 02/25/12 05:28 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Jim1104]
Jim1104 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/16/11
Posts: 409
Loc: Louisiana, USA
Just a note to you guys. I have really been upset by all the talk here about pedophilia and the nuances of definitions and stuff. In fact, I got really mad, but didn't know what exactly to say. My feelings caused nobody here any harm, but I do apologize that the discussion caused me to be angry at several guys here.

I don't think I have ever had an attraction to pre-teens. In my early twenties, I still had fantasies about kids I grew up with, but I really thought of this as being attracted to guys my age. I think somewhere I have said, but will say it here also that the only person I have been physically sexual with is my wife. I used to take great pride in that until I got into online stuff. It has only recently really hit my recollection that I was raped/abused/whatever you want to call it, when I was 12/13 and again 18. I think also something happened once or twice when I was drunk after all that.

But somehow, thinking of pedophilia or the other one related to teenagers as being a condition/characteristic that could be diagnosed without acting on it at all just really upset me. Jesus said that just lusting after a woman constituted adultery. That would kind of make lusting after a teenager mean I had essentially committed the act (in the spiritual), even if I haven't done it in the physical. I don't know, it's just kind of made me feel dirty and sick. (from a logical standpoint, I can wrap my head around the truth that i am guilty of nothing) So, I will probably not look much at this thread anymore, but then again, I might. I really need to lear to distinguish between thoughts and actions.

Ultimately, regardless of what I want to hear or read, the fact is the discussion about the real meaning of pedophilia, etc. has been good.

Sorry to ramble.



Edited by Jim1104 (02/25/12 06:30 PM)
_________________________
Jim
Male/USA

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#387247 - 02/25/12 05:46 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Jim1104]
limit Offline


Registered: 04/23/11
Posts: 131
Quote:
That would kind of make lusting after a teenager mean I had essentially committed the act (in the spiritual)


that isn't what it means.

plz refer here where this was already addressed:

Quote:

i think it's ridiculous everybody is getting bent out of shape over disorders "classified by intrusive thoughts" like they think that means if you think once or twice about something that it automatically makes you whatever, or even that having sexual thoughts about something means that you are even attracted to it.

shit, if that were the case, i'd probably be 20 thousand other kinds of fucked up. abuse fucks you up sexually. i am sure everybody here has had sexual thoughts from their abuser, to their wife, to their cat. that's the point of abuse, it sexualizes things. even just having thoughts doesn't necessarily indicate attraction.

it is a very limited and specific scope. a pedophile is a person who has a prolonged, legitimate, sexual attraction to children that is beyond the fucked upness of ordinary fleeting thoughts. they are intrusive thoughts about sexual relationships with kids, probably made more intrusive by the fact that society considers those thoughts wrong to begin with.


having "a couple thoughts" or "some fantasies that dissipated" doesn't constitute pedophilia which is defined by the dsm above.

regardless of whether or not someone is a pedophile, the fact of the matter is: that these sorts of thoughts and urges should not be treated like leprosy or the plague. i wish people would get clear on the meaning between a thought & urge, and an action, versus all of that and its moral relation to a person's character.

the point in defining pedophilia that clearly is basically the stuff i talked about above. you don't label someone a pedophile if they have a couple of fantasies. that is the whole point of defining it at all. so that you begin to talk about actual pedophiles instead of people who had that thought that one time about some girl because they were going through their own abuse issues.

you don't label someone a pedophile if they have a fleeting thought. in fact, you don't label someone a pedophile unless these thoughts are intrusive, go on longer than six months, are about an age that is specifically defined (re: an adult fantasizing about someone under the age of 13 due to an attraction to children as defined by, obviously, attraction to child-like characteristics not present in adults, lack of sexual development, etc), and significantly impact your life.

that last one is also important. right now i no longer meet the criteria to be diagnosed as ASPD (using hare's checklist), but when i was a teenager, i certainly could have. the biggest indicator of that was that it significantly impacted my life. it significantly impacted everything i do. and it still does.

it is still misery living like this, because my lack of empathy is still there, my violence is still there, and it is hard to exist this way, and it impacts more than you can know. that isn't some impassioned speech for people to feel sorry for me, but i'm trying to put it into terms people can understand: this shit is life-fucking-devastating.

it isn't just That Fantasy Once that ppl talk about when they mention pedophiles. and, anyway, WHO CARES? who cares if it's a pedophile, or if it's a child thinking about raping another child their age, or if it's an adult who wants to rape another adult, or if it's anyone who wants to abuse or hurt anyone else - those thoughts need to be put out in the open nonjudgmentally.

ABUSE THRIVES IN SILENCE



Edited by limit (02/25/12 05:53 PM)

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#387252 - 02/25/12 06:37 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
Originally Posted By: Ken Singer, LCSW
Tertiary prevention- is treating abusers so they won't abuse again. One can argue that all sexual abusers should be jailed for life, but how would the child feel if his grandfather went to prison for life, or the parent of a young adult were to be jailed for the next 60 years? I'm not here to debate sentencing recommendations but in my 33 years of experience treating thousands of juvenile and adult sexual abusers, I've found relatively few who re-offend, particularly with treatment.


Yeah, Ken, Adults (18+) get life in prison for child rape including the kiddie porn creators. No exceptions. Male or female. Child rape is a crime, a sick crime that is more violent than rapes of adults. Far too often their victims get life in their own prison. The stats I've read don't support the recidivism rate you claim. Canada's Victims of Violence claims the recidivism rate can't possibly be known. Makes sense to me when the FBI says only 1 in 10 are reported in the first place. How many less get even get a day in jail? I'm not budging on it. And, I'm not alone in this quest either. I really don't care if people think it (and hope they get help with it). Only if they do it. If you think it, you should worry about life in prison. If that makes people mad, well, tough.

http://www.victimsofviolence.on.ca/rev2/...5&Itemid=45

Here's more from Protecting Children from Child Predators:

More than 1/2 of all convicted sex offenders are sent back to prison within a year. Within 2 years, 77.9% are back. -California Department of Corrections.

"The serial killer has the same personality characteristics as the sex offender against children." -Dr. Mace Knapp, Nevada State Prison Psychologist.

50% of reported child molestations involve the use of physical force and child molesters produce as much visible physical injury as rapists-39% of victims.
-Dr. Gene Abel in a National Institute of Mental Health Study.

About 14% of child victimizers carried a weapon during the violent crime, compared to nearly 1/2 of those who victimized adults.
-BJS Survey of State Prison Inmates, 1991.

About 10% of violent offenders with child victims received life or death sentences and the average prison term was 11 years, somewhat shorter average sentences than received by those with adult victims.
-BJS Survey of State Prison Inmates, 1991.

More than 1/2 of all convicted sex offenders are sent back to prison within a year. Within 2 years, 77.9% are back.
-California Department of Corrections.

Recidivism rates range from 18-45%. The more violent the crime the more likelihood of repeating.
-Studies by the state of Washington.

3 in 10 child victimizers reported that they had committed their crimes against multiple victims: they were more likely than those who victimized adults to have had multiple victims.
-BJS Survey of State Prison Inmates, 1991.

Like rape, child molestation is one of the most underreported crimes: only 1-10% are ever disclosed.
-FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin.

The behavior is highly repetitive, to the point of compulsion, rather than resulting from a lack of judgment.
-Dr. Ann Burges, Dr. Nicholas Groth, et al. in a study of imprisoned offenders

http://www.yellodyno.com/html/child_molester_stats.html

_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

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#387272 - 02/25/12 09:15 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: phoenix321]
DarkHadou Offline


Registered: 10/13/10
Posts: 117
I have more in common with a 15 year old than a 27 year old female. My personality is similar to her, what she is interested in, I just find it boring to be this age, people already married my age, have kids, etc... I like preteens and don't want to change that, I just don't find girls my age that attractive compared to a 15 year old.



Edited by DarkHadou (02/25/12 09:17 PM)

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#387275 - 02/25/12 09:43 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: phoenix321]
Jim1104 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/16/11
Posts: 409
Loc: Louisiana, USA
Oh, hell, editing using an iPhone is impossibly.

I obviously did not state my point accurately. I know in my intellect, Limit, that my emotional reaction to the term does not fit the real definitions. I don't need to read what you so eloquently already said. I agree with it.

Words, however, have literal meaning an connotations. Pedophile has been equated with child molester for for so long that when someone says the word, I have a negative emotional faction. I honestly didn't know the real definition until ken posted it.

But, you know what? Logic doesn't always win in my head. If it did, then I wouldn't be on this forum trying to fix my f'd up head. So, sometimes it takes me a lot of work to reprogram my inaccurate emotional reactions to be in line with the facts. That is all and I was trying to convey my discomfort with the discussion.



Edited by Jim1104 (02/26/12 12:30 AM)
_________________________
Jim
Male/USA

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#387298 - 02/26/12 12:16 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Jim1104]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1197
Loc: New York
Peace,Rainbows & Healing


Edited by lapchinj (03/17/13 09:25 PM)
_________________________
Stick around, It will get better....

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#387302 - 02/26/12 02:09 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: lapchinj]
limit Offline


Registered: 04/23/11
Posts: 131
Quote:
I know in my intellect, Limit, that my emotional reaction to the term does not fit the real definitions.


the reason i restated was because i felt bad that i, obviously, being a proponent of the definitions, contributed to what lead to your feeling singled out, uncomfortable or accused. to me, the definitions sort of prove the basis of the fact that quite simply it's beyond idle fantasy.

and i think it's something that needs to be restated anyway, as there are loads of people who seem to believe along the same vein as you that somehow because there are disorders based on cognitive processes, that if you so happen to look at, glance at, fleetingly-think-about something, it means you have that disorder or you have that problem.

which is crap, because otherwise we'd all be psychopathic pedophiles.



Edited by limit (02/26/12 02:11 AM)

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