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#387026 - 02/24/12 04:54 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Dar]
DarkHadou Offline


Registered: 10/13/10
Posts: 117
Originally Posted By: Dar
I have been following this since the start and I am very new to this sort of topic. So if I sound a little off beat, I am sorry.

I have worried and now have grave concerns about DH.

Has anyone else noticed that DH has all but dissapaered since his last post on the 19th?

Has anyone else thought that maybe DH has already acted out on his thoughts and might be looking for answers as to WHY.

Has anyone else noticed that DH tends to go into hiding from MS for longs periods of time after posting. Like 1 to 2 months at a time. Where does he go?

Call me crazy (and many have) but I feel that there is more to this than just his thoughts.

These are just my feelings guys.

DH if your out there speak up please.



Just cause I stopped responding here doesn't mean I "acted out my thoughts." That's ridiculous to say. I don't use this website every single day. I mostly only use it when I start thinking about the abuse and feel the need to post.


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#387031 - 02/24/12 05:18 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: DarkHadou]
Dar Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/15/11
Posts: 170
Loc: Missouri
Thank you for responding DH, my heart feels better now knowing you are ok.:)
Sorry if I upset you, It has been a hard month for me and I was just worried about you.

_________________________
All I ever wanted was a hug.

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#387036 - 02/24/12 05:39 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: alone]
limit Offline


Registered: 04/23/11
Posts: 131
Quote:
I wish the therapist or psychiatrist would have just said this to me. And I don't have any idea why I didn't look it up for myself. Such a few words that can help so much. Maybe they just assumed I knew. Age sure doesn't mean I know everything nor will I ever.


i think it's ridiculous everybody is getting bent out of shape over disorders "classified by intrusive thoughts" like they think that means if you think once or twice about something that it automatically makes you whatever, or even that having sexual thoughts about something means that you are even attracted to it.

shit, if that were the case, i'd probably be 20 thousand other kinds of fucked up. abuse fucks you up sexually. i am sure everybody here has had sexual thoughts from their abuser, to their wife, to their cat. that's the point of abuse, it sexualizes things. even just having thoughts doesn't necessarily indicate attraction.

it is a very limited and specific scope. a pedophile is a person who has a prolonged, legitimate, sexual attraction to children that is beyond the fucked upness of ordinary fleeting thoughts. they are intrusive thoughts about sexual relationships with kids, probably made more intrusive by the fact that society considers those thoughts wrong to begin with.

i will give you an example. when i was a kid i used to be really bigoted. i grew up with a racist and was constantly beat up because i was obviously "gay" and that manifested as racism and homophobia. i didn't even understand what those terms were. i didn't understand why i was wrong, i didn't understand that it meant hate, i didn't understand any of that. i didn't hate anybody, it was mostly fear and unresolved abuse shit.

so when i started talking about my thoughts, instead of people saying "well, why do you think like this? why is that? what's happening? let's talk about it and figure it out" people were more or less the exact same as people are on here. holy fuck, throw a blanket on it, get it away from me, set it on fire, jfc!

it was fucking ridiculous. i had no IDEA what the hell the problem was, only now, i couldn't discuss it, because it was WRONG to talk about. so i was stuck inside my own head, i couldn't get information from outside, i couldn't figure it out. what the fuck else was i supposed to do? i kept on thinking like that. it wasn't addressed at all. i called a group of people an ugly name in highschool and got the shit beat out of me for it. i mean it was ignorance, i didn't get it.

it isn't the same situation, but you know what i mean? nothing good comes out of ignoring shit like this. a lot of trouble could have been saved if someone had taken the time to ask what the hell was going on instead of just saying "you think bad things, so you are a horribly bad person, and we will ignore you."

and you know what is really funny? i got over the racism issues. but i didn't get over the homophobia issues, because to this day when i bring it up people assume that it means i hate gay people and that i want to hurt them and i want to go out and call them names and fling hate all over them and the only reason i'm bringing it up is so i can express just how much i hate them when it has NOTHING TO DO WITH HATE.

it is the paradigm between thought & action. people assume i will automatically engage in bad behavior just because i have bad thoughts, like i can't recognize my thoughts and beliefs are fucked up or irrational or illogical or any number of things. people have told me over the years "yeah well it's irrational because..." i know! i know that! lol. you know?

i have went a lot off topic but i am just trying to illustrate here. all i was ever taught about it was "gay people are wrong and you are gay so you are wrong and now we will go through this whole thing where you suffer for it" and as a child that manifested as "okay, i hate gay people, cause it's their fault." and when i expressed this, because what the hell else am i supposed to express? - i was then told "yeah well that's wrong." so why's it wrong? "because you're full of hate and you're horrible and fuck off and die."

it is so. not. helpful.

which is why i think it is so important to examine thoughts like this in people instead of pushing them aside or ignoring them. alone, when we started talking about this candidly, both you and daniel_forgotten started posting about how we should all really just shut up and blah blah i mean it was so defensive and full of shame, but honestly, i think this is a good thing.

it's good to get it out there. the embarrassment and shame comes from what people tell you about what you think. nobody can tell anyone else or judge anyone else from their thoughts alone. actions matter. i can say whatever i want.

and, just in general:

from me, anyway, i can't speak to anyone else, but there is no moral judgment going on here. i don't think it is wrong to have thoughts. it just isn't. it isn't about right or wrong for me. being a pedophile or a psychopath isn't about "right or wrong".

when i was 16 i fit every diagnostic criteria of psychopath, just so you know. i still struggle with a lot of it on a day to day basis. which is why it is so very black and white to me, because it has to be, all the time. so what does that say about me? by my inaction despite my thoughts? you know. so it is pretty much in a similar spectrum, for me.

to me, the way a psychopath thinks about murder and homicide is much different than the way an abuse victim would fantasize about killing their abuser. it is less about revenge or anger and more about impulsiveness, rage, and lack of empathy. that last one is the biggest indicator of psychopathy actually, and the whole disorder is on a whole less about "evil killer" and more about lack of empathy.

there are loads of psychopaths/sociopaths/aspds around who don't kill. just like there are loads of pedophiles out there who don't rape children. absolutely. is it destructive and harmful? yeah. it's destructive and harmful for me to relate with being a psychopath and i don't even frigging talk to people because of it. it's destructive and harmful just existing this way, period.

i can relate with being a psychopath. it doesn't say anything about me other than that is what i think and how i process the world around me. and while not a pedophile, i am absolutely certain it is so much more than just "i had a thought about a little kid" when it comes to pedophilia. just like it is so much more than just "oh, i want to kill that guy" when it comes to being a psychopath.

it is NOT that simple. to me it says a lot about a person's character what they do with their thoughts, moreso than it does based on the thoughts.



Edited by limit (02/24/12 07:30 AM)

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#387078 - 02/24/12 01:42 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: limit]
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5778
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
This is a fascinating discussion and people feel so strongly about the topic. I'm glad to hear DH that you are not MIA.

I think that the people who developed the definition of pedophilia were operating from a perspective about behaviors and perhaps mostly observed convicted sexual offenders. (By the way, the new version of the DSM-V is coming out in the next few years and it is not a simple process. Some of my colleagues in the sexual abuser treatment and research field are on a couple of committees for the American Psychiatric Association defining the diagnoses that make up the DSMs. The process is very tedious and incorporates minutia of definitions that are ridiculously long. The debates tend to be pretty heated, but that's another story.)

Survivor issues tend to be in the category of PTSD definitions. And that's only been the case for sexual abuse survivors for a few years. The PTSD definitions are probably going to reflect the recent changes in the military for all the veterans who are now diagnosed with PTSD.

If the developers of the definitions of pedophilia were to talk with the survivors around here, they might have more information to adjust the pedophilia definition to allow the thoughts/feelings of survivors such as what is airing here.

The process of sexual victimization of a child can result in pleasurable feelings, confusion, and at times, sexual identity confusion. Think of all the men who are attracted to penises or random sex with males. Some are in a sense fixated with the power of the penis of their abusers and may recreate the abuse dynamics of that powerful sexual stimulation/orgasm and be attracted to older men for example. Others may act out by seeking attention from other men and use or control them by becoming prostitutes.

If a man seeks out sexual relations with another male and sees himself as heterosexual, does it really mean he is homosexual or bisexual? Perhaps, but many just want the rush of an anonymous encounter for the sexual stimulation/gratification rather than a caring/loving relationship that may more characterize the person who is truly gay.

I think the definition of pedophilia, whether it is recurrent behaviors or thoughts, is probably not reflective of most survivors. Unfortunately, the definition may include many who are NOT pedophiles but have some characteristic of the definition. Just like the person who engages in a sexual act with a man is not necessarily homosexual (but can be), the act of looking at gay porn, thoughts/fantasies of sex with men, or even gay behaviors does not necessarily make the person homosexual.

Quote:
it is the paradigm between thought & action. people assume i will automatically engage in bad behavior just because i have bad thoughts


I agree with Limit. It is important to not label yourself as bad or damaged because of thoughts. Take into consideration that the child who is abused by a teenager may feel an attraction or need to control that person and reverse the position they were in as a helpless child. Similarly, the abused child growing up, may want to identify with the aggressor and look at some children like sexual objects as he once was.

All in all, the definition of pedophilia probably is not something someone should look at if he were abused as a child. It's not a simple answer and the complexity of the impact of sexual abuse should make that clear.

Hope this eases some of the concerns.
Ken


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#387081 - 02/24/12 01:58 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
Obi Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 1314
Loc: kansas
Agreed, Ken.

Problem is the social stigma attached to that word. Even being proven beyond a shadow of doubt of being falsely accused of being a pedophile, as was the case with my folks, that the disgust of it can permanently label a person for it,even the ones innocent of such things and/or only having thoughts.

I'll admit that when I first read this thread that I was creeped out, but reading all the replies reminded me of what my folks went through and the wrongful accusations and harassment they suffered because of it.

_________________________
live another day. climb a little higher.

my story

my vlog

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#387093 - 02/24/12 04:29 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
Mr. Ken,

I don't think these ideas are going to quell angst, and rightful discrimination against men that are turned on, aroused (or fantasize about) by teens, preteens or younger. The DSM committees settled on the pedophile definition for a reason. I bet the reason is the large majority of people that have these thoughts about children end up offending. NAMBLA's disgusting organization was kicked out of some Gay Pride parades. NAMBLA is a pedophile apology organization for those who don't know. Yes, they are a real outfit. Most have kicked them out of everything but they still exist. I have study this bunch and they are pedophiles to say the least that wish to legalize men and boys having sex. This simple fact is: It's not a gay issue; it's a pedophile issue. 1 in 6 boys are raped and 1 in 4 (or 1 in 5) girls are raped by pedophiles. It's rape not "molestating" per the FBI's definition.

Even the Supreme Court didn't think teens discussing sex on the internet amongst themselves was illegal, but it was amongst themselves. That example is that society does have a valid concern about men (or women) thinking such things and have every right to be concerned about such behavior.

It is not a crime to think such things, however, it should be discouraged, and certainly is by 99% of society. Men (and women) that have these thoughts should seek professional help. Yeah, that's why pedophilia is in the DSM. Is pedophilia bad thoughts? The DSM apparently thinks so. They did remove the "gay is bad" years ago so please don't bring up that ridiculous argument. It's no a gay issue; it's a pedophile issue.

An old saying, as you think so you are. If you think these type of things, you really shouldn't be around kids. The temptation is just too great. Limit is probably one of the few that fought such thoughts successfully. It's really sad he had to fight these things because he is a CSA Survivor. And, it's exactly why pedophilia-based behaviour should continue to receive society's scorn. It's not Limit's fault he thinks this. It is Limit's responsibility to make sure he doesn't actually do it. It is definitely the pedophile(s) who abused Limit responsibility as to why Limit thinks this way. That is exactly how Limit got to having such thoughts. Yet, another reason why offending pedophiles should receive severe punishment like Life in Prison. How else to stop the cycle but remove these individuals from society so they are no longer predators? The therapy argument instead for pedophiles is utterly ridiculous. Why is the hell should I pay to "reform" (which no one believes even works) pedophiles that rape a kid?

Do pedophiles "love" the kids they abuse? Nope. It's rape. We all know rape is about power.

Should people that don't offend be shameful about having such thoughts as the DSM provides? If I did, I would. If no shame, what's to stop someone from actually doing it? In the end, this is not a complicated issue to discern that people should fight like hell against it, get professional help for it and pay dearly if they rape some kid. I'd be willing to bet the writers of the DSM agree wholeheartedly with at least the first two points of my argument if not all three. Peace.

Note: Limit, you should be commended for fighting such thoughts. Awesome job, man. All should fight those thoughts with as much vigor and courage as you did rather than give in to them and rape a kid. Kudos!

----
President Bill Clinton made sure the UN did not have anything to do with NAMBLA or any other promoter of pedophilia:

The North American Man/Boy Love Association (NAMBLA) is a pedophile and pedarasty advocacy organization in the United States that works to abolish age of consent laws decriminalizing adult sexual contact with minors.

In 1993, the International Lesbian and Gay Association achieved United Nations consultative status. NAMBLA's membership in ILGA drew heavy criticism and caused the suspension of ILGA. Republican Senator Jesse Helms proposed a bill to withhold $119 million in U.N. contributions until U.S. President Bill Clinton could certify that "no UN agency grants any official status, accreditation, or recognition to any organization which promotes, condones, or seeks the legalization of pedophilia, that is, the sexual abuse of children".

Finally in 1994 the International Lesbian & Gay Association finally banned the NAMBLA from their group. (B)

sources:

(A) http://www.glbtq.com/social-sciences/nam…
(B) http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=SYWOb…
--------



Edited by phoenix321 (02/24/12 04:36 PM)
Edit Reason: add
_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

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#387099 - 02/24/12 05:27 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: phoenix321]
limit Offline


Registered: 04/23/11
Posts: 131
just for clarification: i wasn't the pedophile in the discussion. though, as you've said, there are thoughts i struggle with every day which i have brought up to compare and analyze.

such as i've stated, for example, the lack of care i feel toward others and the fact that i wouldn't care if i killed them. the violence inside of me, the bpd-rage (this is my instinctive "everybody hates me, you hate me, you can't express that you love me enough so that i will believe you, accuse, accuse, accuse" attachment stuff) clearly this comparison was a decent one.

my point in comparing was that, as you've said, i've fought my thoughts and my cognitive distortions and my negative thinking and my flaws. shit, i fight my flaws every single day i'm alive. it's taken me 40 years to learn empathy and even now, it manifests as primitive rage on the behalf of others.

i feel empathy toward people who i can relate with. i suppose that is why i have come down so hard on this thread, in a way, it is a manifestation of my empathy. i can relate with having thoughts others deem "bad". i can relate with having feelings that others deem "bad".

if i were to go into it right now i am sure no one would feel particularly inclined to talk to me ever again. i honestly feel very little about other people. it is an extreme lack of empathy. my affect is very shallow. the best way that i can help or support another person is to provide them with information. i cannot comfort or sympathize.

i feel humor, sarcasm, anger, sadness, fear, but they are all about me. people tell me they've done things like have children or gotten married and i could care less. people tell me they've been raped as a child and emotionally? i could care less.

the best empathy i can accomplish is by relating to others. and it has taken me a whole life time to learn how to do even that much. it is a silly form of primitive altruism. i care about others because it relates to or benefits myself.

my morality is almost entirely intellectualized based on what i understand about our society which is why i argue ethics so precisely, because in my mind, it has already been argued out a thousand times. i exist on ethical argument, that is how i exist without hurting other people.

i am not a pedophile, nor do i apologize for people who rape children (legalizing sex with children goes beyond the realm of thought and into the realm of action and behavior, as well as does founding a society based on this) or who believe that raping children is right (which is a personal moral conflict - intellectual and somewhat personal as i understand how abuse negatively impacts others).

but i know what it is like to have issues that society does not want to deal with. i don't have the desire to rape children. i would never participate in a community that advocated for the rape of children. but you know what? i would participate in a community that advocated for the right of everyone to be able to think freely what they wish without condemnation, so that what they think can be examined in a judgment-free zone. absolutely.


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#387117 - 02/24/12 07:13 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: limit]
limit Offline


Registered: 04/23/11
Posts: 131
by the way, i would just like to argue, from the point of view that if i were a pedophile and you were referring to me (and for the purposes of this argument i will instead talk from my perspective with negative thoughts, which is that of a more violent variety rather than a rapist/pedophile variety):

Quote:
It is Limit's responsibility to make sure he doesn't actually do it. It is definitely the pedophile(s) who abused Limit responsibility as to why Limit thinks this way.


my thoughts are my responsibility, always. regardless of what i think, it is still always my responsibility. as an adult man living in today's society, i am absolutely responsible for my thoughts. this is the reason why i don't act on my thoughts - because i take responsibility for them.

this is also an argument that is present in ken's speech, and is something i disagree with. he stated something to the effect that if a person was abused, pedophilia might not apply to them. i absolutely disagree. abuse is not an excuse, nor does it relieve you of responsibility to yourself, your thoughts, and your actions.

you can absolutely be an abuse victim who has become a pedophile. in fact, i would suggest that pedophilia is inherently more common in those who have been abused, because the fact of the matter is, you are exposed to pedophilia when you are abused. the exposure creates the program. you can't create a program out of something that doesn't exist.

(note: this is different than vampirism, which is to say that those who are abused will go on to abuse others, but i inherently disagree with some of this as well, in that i honestly believe everyone continues the cycle of abuse in some way, either toward themselves or toward others.)

if someone held a gun to my head and told me to kill someone else or they'd shoot me, and i shot that person, i would not ethically consider that to be the same as murder, but i would not say that i am not responsible for my decision. the fact of the matter is, i was given a choice, and that choice was not of my own choosing, but i am responsible for how i handle the choice.

the same thing goes for thoughts. i have tried many times to just "feel" empathy, to just "focus" on other people, to just "not care", or "not defend" or "not be violent" - and so have, i assume, many pedophiles have tried to "not think about it" - and it doesn't work too well. it is repression and stifling and silence, and ultimately useless.

Quote:
That is exactly how Limit got to having such thoughts.


i don't know how i got to being the way i am, in terms of the types of thoughts i exhibit, which are different than pedophilia entirely (and more in line with ASPD). i would suggest it is a product of the environment i grew up in, and my genetic predisposition (my father was a likely ASPD/BPD/schizophrenic as well).

regardless of how it happened, i am an adult, and that responsibility is mine. my father is dead. it doesn't matter how it happened, it doesn't matter that it wasn't fair, it doesn't matter that it could have been prevented - it is still my responsibility to take care of. it does no use sitting in the corner blaming my dad while justifying my own thoughts.

Quote:
Yet, another reason why offending pedophiles should receive severe punishment like Life in Prison. How else to stop the cycle but remove these individuals from society so they are no longer predators?


that doesn't stop the cycle of abuse. it just continues it somewhere else: in prison. those who are In Prison are not automatically exempt from human society. inmates are humans as well, and often times, the cycle of rape and abuse very well continues behind bars. it just becomes someone else's problem. we don't have to deal with it. shove it away.

Quote:
The therapy argument instead for pedophiles is utterly ridiculous. Why is the hell should I pay to "reform" (which no one believes even works) pedophiles that rape a kid?


well, i am sure that had i received therapy in my youth for Conduct Disorder, i would probably be capable of a much greater extent of empathy and emotion than i am right now. if someone now took the time to deal with me and my problems i am sure, because i am not treatment resistant, that i would make more progress than i am making.

it is like saying you might as well lock someone with BPD up behind bars. there are only a percentage of people with BPD who cannot be treated and that is because they do not want to be treated. just like there are only a percentage of those who are pedophiles who cannot or do not want to be treated.

i am sure if there were a more widely available spectrum of therapy for those who struggle with pedophilic urges and thoughts, that was done under an accepting and judgment-free environment (and you can say that this "exists now" and "does not work" but let me tell you - it doesn't exist now, because society as a whole does not allow it to exist without moral judgment), that there would be a marginally reduced rate of action. absolutely.

& finally,

thank you. even though i recognize the sentiment was directed at the wrong sort of "thoughts", to me, it still sort of applies in a way, though to different thoughts. so, thank you for the acknowledgment. i appreciate it a lot.



Edited by limit (02/24/12 07:21 PM)
Edit Reason: forgot to say thank you

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#387142 - 02/24/12 11:24 PM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: limit]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
Dear Limit,

That's what you posted. If I got it wrong regarding yourself, I apologize.

Limit, I was referring to pedophiles that have offended with regards to "treatment". I thought I made that clear. I have never read that works.

I personally will not apologize to saying pedophiles that rape a kid deserve harsh treatment. Male or female. My thought is life in prison and they must submit to being studied. I really don't care the reason why a pedo raped. I'm actually preparing a complaint to several of our useless Senators demanding pedophiles (offenders) get exactly that and do not get Social Security disability either.

Child rape ruins people's lives. MS proves that beyond any doubt. It certainly did mine and many others I've met over the years. I have no use for child rapists. Period. Yes, life in prison. They are sequestered. Sorry, it's their problem. We don't need these monsters roaming the countryside. Our justice system has coddled child rapists for too long.

There was a bunch of child rapists who went to court to get sent back to jail because they had no where to live because of sex offender laws. I believe it was NJ. They were living under a big bridge. The comments regarding this news story was overwhelmingly, so sad, too bad, they should've gotten death or life or worse. The judge refused to send them to jail and said, "tough, that's your problem not the court's." Absolutely, positively right. American society owes them nothing, nada, zippo but life behind bars. Prison sucks. It's bad. They shouldn't have raped a kid (many kids probably) in the first place.

I'm actually quite liberal and don't believe in the death penalty for murder. Life in prison can be handed out like candy to violent criminals in my opinion. Including those poor little women teachers in Texas who raped a kid as an example.

A person's rights end where another person's rights begin.

The thought police has no place in society. Many people with CSA get left behind in society with regards to professional help. I looked high and low for it and didn't find it or was lied to.

I'm a Bipolar. Was a bad one at times. I spent money, lots of money, had fun, etc. but, didn't hurt anyone doing it. BPD treatment does have a track record. It's tough. But there's is help for it. I have never heard of a successful therapy for pedophilia (offenders). The shrinks and psychiatrists over the years said they didn't think there was one either. I asked. Offenders not just people thinking it.

I believe people can conquer thinking anything and remove it from their lives. It's not fair. I met terrible schizophrenics that did it. Have seen those with OCD do it. They have medication for a lot of things that helps.

Pedophilia as just thoughts belongs in the purview of the professionals that are trained to deal with such things not a therapist that treats anything and has no skill regarding any discipline. I believe in universal health care so help should be extended to all suffers (and CSA as well). However, pedophilia as a free standing disability should not be. That sucks. Yeah, well, life sucks. Nobody is expendable but society definitely thinks some are. But, considering pedophilia as a deep offense to society, thought or offending, is a good thing if it protects one kid from getting raped and living a life full of shit. That includes that disgusting kiddie porn too.

_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

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#387181 - 02/25/12 05:42 AM Re: I'm attracted to preteens [Re: phoenix321]
limit Offline


Registered: 04/23/11
Posts: 131
you keep talking about child rapists. pedophiles and child rapists are not the same thing. having pedophilic urges does not make a person a child rapist. you keep saying you disagree with being the thought police, yet insinuate that a person having specific thoughts is a "deep offense on society". that is essential "policing".

Quote:
But, considering pedophilia as a deep offense to society, thought or offending, is a good thing if it protects one kid from getting raped and living a life full of shit.


that is the point. considering pedophilic thoughts as blasphemous does nothing to protect children from rape. it continues the problem, only this time, those who may possibly be capable of help and treatment prior to offense are left in the dark without any ability to receive help due to their so called, erm, deep offense to society.

all you need to do is look at the statistics for child rape and my point becomes evident. silence at any point does no good either for the child or for a pedophile who has urges.

Quote:
Pedophilia as just thoughts belongs in the purview of the professionals that are trained to deal with such things


that doesn't help anyone anywhere. it is basically permission to keep up the oppressive environment where no one can speak of anything in their mind again, prior to offense. again, you keep bringing up child rape. pedophilia and child rape are two different things.

arguing that child rape is wrong while bashing pedophiles is an irrelevant argument because it insinuates that thoughts automatically equal action. you don't just "apply" a definition to a group of people that "only" applies to specific other people. how does that help?

it is like the stigma attached to BPD. most people do not want to be BPD or have BPD because people consider people with BPD to be automatically abusive or annoying or grating or whatever. there are treatment-capable, non-abusive BPDs out there. just like there are treatment-capable, non-abusive pedophiles out there. just like there are treatment-capable schizophrenics out there.

it has nothing to do with recognition as a disability. ASPD - antisocial personality disorder (psychopathy, sociopathy) is also a mental illness as defined by the DSM. there are ASPDs who don't go around killing other people. ASPD as a set of inherent traits and functions doesn't "just" apply to the treating therapist.

Quote:
I believe people can conquer thinking anything and remove it from their lives. It's not fair.


which is the entire point of my argument. it is not fair to ostracize someone for their thoughts. actions? yes. you rape a child, people think you are bad - i'm okay with that. i understand that. it makes sense to me. child rape is ethically repugnant.

but insinuating that a pedophile (which is defined inherently by thoughts first, followed by action, as you think before you act) is automatically a sex offender is just that - ostracizing. it is silence and shaming. people think things every day. if i were punished for every thought i had as being bad i might as well just jump off a bridge right now.

i would absolutely prefer a pedophile to be out in the open, discussing their beliefs and urges, and subsequently not raping a child and learning to identify their issues, rather than a pedophile who is not allowed to discuss their beliefs or their urges, and who feels there is no outlet for what is inside of them.

having no outlet and being stigmatized is a stressor. stressors make people act out just as much as their initial thoughts do. pressure, stress, hate, fear, shame, silence. the dichotomy is remarkable. pedophilia is inherently an abuse issue, imo, and it should be treated like an abuse issue.

i wish people who had pedophilic urges were not suddenly considered lepors. it would do a lot more good in the long run in preventing more abuse from happening. abuse starves when the light is shined on it. you know that? the more you examine and look at abuse, the less power it has. why would you want to give anyone the opportunity to sit around ruminating in the dark? when you could shine the truth light on them and get it all out in the open.

abuse thrives under secrecy. from both ends.



Edited by limit (02/25/12 06:01 AM)

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