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#386063 - 02/16/12 02:45 PM Re: Men vs. Women [Re: Shawushka]
Gretta Offline


Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 239
Shawushka I agree...

I also think it is incredibly funny that you speak of the oppression of men when most of the women here have been lied to, cheated on, some have been given sexually transmitted diseases, mentally and physically abused and are here to support the men they love to help them get better.

Because "control" is a big dynamic with someone who is abused many of the partners and spouses here can't openly say what they want or need because it will be perceived as a loss of control for the survivor..., WE aren't even allowed to demand therapy I've read those discussion on line. I am lucky to be in a relationship where my husband listens and values my opinion, but many of the women here are not.

Besides removing the top 1% of males you should have removed wives who support their husbands through CSA. By default most of us are co-dependents and have allowed bad behavior (for whatever reason) to go on for way too long. This is a lucky thing for our husbands because many women would have asked them to pack their bags!

I am not even sure of the true value of the percentages you put up there you didn't quote sources.

but I am going to repeat the post above.

"If you want to subscribe to oppressive gender roles that's your deal" I don't think that is a productive post in the friends and family forum.


Top
#386073 - 02/16/12 04:19 PM Re: Men vs. Women [Re: Gretta]
Disappointed Offline


Registered: 08/11/09
Posts: 540
Loc: U.S.A.
llll
_________________________
Female.

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#386079 - 02/16/12 04:47 PM Re: Men vs. Women [Re: Disappointed]
herowannabe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/01/11
Posts: 386
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Disappointed
Go to divorce court sometime.

You'll see plenty of men oppressed.

Signed,
Divorce Lawyer


...and plenty of women oppressed by those who have "no use" for women based solely on a lawyer's prejudice that they've obviously eaten a man for breakfast.

Life shouldn't be this ugly, people. EVERYONE is treated unfairly by someone in some circumstance at some point. The cure is to not color an entire class of people (male/female, gay/straight, abused/not as abused, Catholic/non-Catholic) with a large paintbrush based on the destructive actions of a few.

We can't change the whole world, but if we each start with ourselves, we'll at least make a dent.

herowannabe

_________________________


For I know the plans I have made for you. Plans to give you a future and a hope. Jeremiah 29:11


Top
#386094 - 02/16/12 07:16 PM Re: Men vs. Women [Re: Shawushka]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
Originally Posted By: Shawushka
Hardcore feminist answering here, so fasten your seat belt please. grin (but don't throw your sense of humour out of the window!)

First of all, I do not believe at all that there is a war waged against men nor do I believe that they are oppressed and even less do I believe that women at large oppress men.
In my opinion, if you are male, white, live in an industrialised country and think you're oppressed it makes me wonder which planet you are living on.

There is wide spread discrimination against women in the work place, I've experience plenty of it myself - whether that is being paid less, than my male counter parts, being reduced to my uterus cause I'm still in child bearing age, to blatant daily, verbal sexism.

Then take a look at tv and magazine adds. Whether it's perfume or a Sihl's Chainsaws (or Pirelli tires) - it's women's bodies who are objectified to sell something and they are always, always portrayed as being sexually available, seductive. This is a picture that is pervasive and manifests itself in the conscience of our society. Imagine something absurd like "Always Ultra's Calender 2012" with naked, lucid, sexually available men...
Then, don't even get started on porn. It's appalling how much straightforward hatred there is against women. I've watched and awful lot and find 99% of it sickening, because of the way women are portrayed in porn. Fair enough, I've also met guys who 'watched too much porn' and thought if they don't perform like a porn star, something's wrong with them.

It is still women who are disadvantaged, because they do the majority of child care and in an aging society take care for the elderly. Those women miss out on building up a decent pension fund, end up poor when they reach retirement age.
Women who chose to work full-time and drop their children of at day-care are still often frowned upon. Whereas few men are asked how they intend to combine their career with child rearing.
Divorced mothers are the ones set up for poverty, women are economically no where near where men are.

So far, my opinion on the point that women are supposed to not be disadvantaged.

However, two wrongs doesn't make a thing right and I view feminism not as a "Men vs Women" fight. Imho, it is wrong to vilify all men and act as if they are monsters who spend their days oppressing women.
I do think that a lot of men suffer as much as women do from the patriarchal society.
One result of patriarchy is that women are seen as caring, vulnerable, available, etc. and are therefore allowed to be victims, it is accepted that they can get hurt - hence we are all willing to allocate resources to institutions that foster the advancement of women, care for abused, etc.
The opposite is that men are supposed to be the leaders, strong, manly, etc. Men don't get hurt, boys don't cry. So why should we allocate resources to help hurt men? Suck it up, if you're a real men. That is the common thought of society (not mine!).

I do think that we also must allocate as much help to males than we do to females. We must stop teaching boys 'not to cry and suck it up'. We should teach our boys that it's okay to cry and relieve those emotions, talk about them. It doesn't emasculate a man when he knows how to cook and enjoys to spend times with his children.

If the whole equation was more balanced, both men and women would benefit and we should all work together to better our lives.
Men would also benefit for instance if they could take parental leave. How many retired men have I spoken to, who spend lots of time with their grandkids and it makes them realise how much they have missed out with their own kid's childhood because they were supposed to take care of the family income.

And when I say it goes both ways, I mean it because interestingly I've recently read about a poll whose result was that working women are much more likely to view their income as 'theirs' not 'ours'.
Also, I guess each of us knows at least one woman who ends up doing all the housework because she's convinced her husband can't do it. I can hear them "oh, he just can't do the laundry." "He's just doesn't do the dishes properly." "Yeah, mine also hasn't got a clue." - and they rip the vacuum cleaner out of his hands and do it themselves. Oh dear, would I feel inadequate if I was that husband and it's no surprise if such a guy gives up.

We also do have to examine why the majority of prisoners are male, homeless, criminals, etc. Personally I do not believe that is because they are oppressed by women but it is a result of a strongly, conservative, patriarchal society.
As a feminist I would welcome if the issue would be treated more holistic instead of being reduced to women's issues only. I would welcome if more father's would be granted custody over their children, simply because just being a woman doesn't necessarily make you a good parent. But then as a society we'd also have to stop frowning upon woman who get divorced and decide to leave the kids with the father.


Oh my, this OP clearly hit a nerve with me! I better stop!






Shawsushka,

I agree with you 99%. Here's my thought: Feminists do blame all men for the stupidity of male chauvinist pigs and men with the wrong idea towards women. I have always thought we are equals (except serving in forward areas of combat--yeah, that's a man's job--offensive to some women? Yeah, I'm sure. It just doesn't work (per nations that tried it) is why I say that not because women can't do it).

You mentioned taking care of the elderly. It is hilarious to me the christian bunch demands that of everyone else and then throws their own in nursing homes. If they can do it, people should.

Women do get the short end of the stick a lot. I am glad there are tons of resources out their for them for rape, CSA, etc. My complaint is this: men that are sick/dealing with rape/CSA are too often considered expendable. Women that molest kids get suspended sentences or a couple of years and men get thrown away forever. Hey, life in prison for all is my thought. No use whatsoever for the guys either.

I've seen good parents that were women and men. More women for sure (can't say that for my mom). But, saw men that adored their kids and treated them like royalty get thrown to the wolves. I totally agree with child support being strictly enforced. It is a joke. Guys that don't take care of their kids deserve scorn, and jail.

Porn is a business. Pretty girls bring in the cash. I know tons of women that watch it. Women are the fastest growing audience. Truth. Some of it is disgusting for sure. Porn for women seems to be what you are looking for. My big problem with porn is the guys are damn ugly. Hahaha! If the women were all ugly, porn would go bankrupt. It sucks but that's the truth.

You know why the models for women's clothes/lingerie are all 10s? Because that's what the studies showed that women wanted to see. You know why? They wanted the fantasy of looking like that. That doesn't fit with the feminist agenda but it was found to be true. They went with the market. They sold less if it wasn't fantasy. A lot less like 50% less.

You want me to be real honest: women are their own worst enemies. Why a woman puts up with a guy that treats her like shit is beyond me. I saw women turn down the nice guy that would've treated them like queens for the bad boy that treated them like shit over and over and over. Then I saw them make every excuse in the book for the guy. Some of those girls were feminist too.

Guys that cry and talk about emotions are considered fags, queens, queers, gay. You might accept it but femdom doesn't. Other men certainly don't unless they are fags, queens, queers, gay. No offense but it's true. Even most feminist don't want those guys deep down.

Those stats I posted are sobering. Something is definitely wrong in America. It's called greed and profit at any cost. It just seems men are far more expendable in that equation, which leads to men being far more expendable period.



Edited by phoenix321 (02/16/12 07:20 PM)
_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

Top
#386095 - 02/16/12 07:22 PM Re: Men vs. Women [Re: Gretta]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
Originally Posted By: Gretta
Shawushka I agree...

I also think it is incredibly funny that you speak of the oppression of men when most of the women here have been lied to, cheated on, some have been given sexually transmitted diseases, mentally and physically abused and are here to support the men they love to help them get better.

Because "control" is a big dynamic with someone who is abused many of the partners and spouses here can't openly say what they want or need because it will be perceived as a loss of control for the survivor..., WE aren't even allowed to demand therapy I've read those discussion on line. I am lucky to be in a relationship where my husband listens and values my opinion, but many of the women here are not.

Besides removing the top 1% of males you should have removed wives who support their husbands through CSA. By default most of us are co-dependents and have allowed bad behavior (for whatever reason) to go on for way too long. This is a lucky thing for our husbands because many women would have asked them to pack their bags!

I am not even sure of the true value of the percentages you put up there you didn't quote sources.

but I am going to repeat the post above.

"If you want to subscribe to oppressive gender roles that's your deal" I don't think that is a productive post in the friends and family forum.


Gretta, this is a great discussion. Everyone that has posted provides great insight onto the problem. That includes Shawushka. Good everyone. Keep it coming. smile

Gretta, love to understand this response I posted: "You want me to be real honest: women are their own worst enemies. Why a woman puts up with a guy that treats her like shit is beyond me. I saw women turn down the nice guy that would've treated them like queens for the bad boy that treated them like shit over and over and over. Then I saw them make every excuse in the book for the guy. Some of those girls were feminists too."



Edited by phoenix321 (02/16/12 07:23 PM)
_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

Top
#386096 - 02/16/12 07:23 PM Re: Men vs. Women [Re: herowannabe]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
Originally Posted By: herowannabe
Originally Posted By: Disappointed
Go to divorce court sometime.

You'll see plenty of men oppressed.

Signed,
Divorce Lawyer


...and plenty of women oppressed by those who have "no use" for women based solely on a lawyer's prejudice that they've obviously eaten a man for breakfast.

Life shouldn't be this ugly, people. EVERYONE is treated unfairly by someone in some circumstance at some point. The cure is to not color an entire class of people (male/female, gay/straight, abused/not as abused, Catholic/non-Catholic) with a large paintbrush based on the destructive actions of a few.

We can't change the whole world, but if we each start with ourselves, we'll at least make a dent.

herowannabe




Hero, You Nailed it. Kudos.



Edited by phoenix321 (02/16/12 07:24 PM)
_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

Top
#386100 - 02/16/12 07:42 PM Re: Men vs. Women [Re: phoenix321]
herowannabe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/01/11
Posts: 386
Loc: USA
Quote:
Hero, You Nailed it. Kudos.


No...YOU nailed it, Phoenix! wink

All of your points are spot on! And I appreciate your respectful, generous tone in the face of the real discrimination you, as a male survivor, face.

But you know what? YOU and soooo many on this board, are changing that. It's always a slow, painful process to change the preconceived, ignorant notions of a society that is more interested in Whitney Houston's death than that of an American soldier, but it WILL come! And that is a jewel in your crown, sir!

Blessings, All!

_________________________


For I know the plans I have made for you. Plans to give you a future and a hope. Jeremiah 29:11


Top
#386105 - 02/16/12 08:14 PM Re: Men vs. Women [Re: herowannabe]
Gretta Offline


Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 239
Oh he didn't start off treating me terrible. It was 11 years into my marriage that things fell apart. He was wonderful, we were wonderful I would never have put up with someone treating me like dirt. Actually when I discovered the infidelity/prostitutes, I never felt unloved. Something was off, but we both have stressful jobs, we have 3 kids 10 and under, a couple dogs, 2 stressful extended families and we both lost a parent within 6 months after having our third child. Of course we were off duh? I thought it was par for the course.

I have also never understood women/men who were attracted to mean people. After yrs of marriage and kids it's just not that easy to walk away.

So I don't have your answer. sorry


Top
#386106 - 02/16/12 08:17 PM Re: Men vs. Women [Re: herowannabe]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
Originally Posted By: herowannabe
Quote:
Hero, You Nailed it. Kudos.


No...YOU nailed it, Phoenix! wink

All of your points are spot on! And I appreciate your respectful, generous tone in the face of the real discrimination you, as a male survivor, face.

But you know what? YOU and soooo many on this board, are changing that. It's always a slow, painful process to change the preconceived, ignorant notions of a society that is more interested in Whitney Houston's death than that of an American soldier, but it WILL come! And that is a jewel in your crown, sir!

Blessings, All!


Thank you, Hero.

My thoughts on Whitney is this: she was a druggie that could sing well once. People blame Booby Brown (he's a piece of shit) but she chose to pick up the crack pipe or snort coke then abuse>
_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

Top
#386146 - 02/17/12 02:04 AM Re: Men vs. Women [Re: Gretta]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
Originally Posted By: Gretta
Oh he didn't start off treating me terrible. It was 11 years into my marriage that things fell apart. He was wonderful, we were wonderful I would never have put up with someone treating me like dirt. Actually when I discovered the infidelity/prostitutes, I never felt unloved. Something was off, but we both have stressful jobs, we have 3 kids 10 and under, a couple dogs, 2 stressful extended families and we both lost a parent within 6 months after having our third child. Of course we were off duh? I thought it was par for the course.

I have also never understood women/men who were attracted to mean people. After yrs of marriage and kids it's just not that easy to walk away.

So I don't have your answer. sorry


I always wondered that question. Sorry about your circumstances. frown

_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

Top
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