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#385479 - 02/12/12 06:57 PM Men vs. Women
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
Posted this in the other forum first. Would like to see what women (those with male CSA survivors especially) say.

Comment in response to: I Have Female Privilege
http://goodmenproject.com/men-and-feminism/i-have-female-privilege/

John D. commented:
"Rebecca says:
“The idea that the tide of power has turned and women have more power than men, in the aggregate, is laughably counter-factual.”

Rebecca, if you eliminate the top 1% elites that obviously add more wealth and control towards men and instead look at the general populace it can be demonstrably shown that many men have far less privilege and far worse standard of living compared to women.

Men are:
95% of on-the-job deaths
90% of the homeless
80% of all suicides
80% the victims of violent crime
90% of the incarcerated (studies show the anti-male sentencing disparity is equal to the anti-black sentencing disparity)
95% of those on death row
38% of college grads
live 7 years less
fathers get primary physical custody 6% to mothers 80%


men have much less advocacy and aid in reproductive rights, mental health, health care the list goes on and on. The help programs in many spheres of life for women dominate what is available for men.

In short the constant frenzy of feminists to view only the elites to show that ALL MEN have much greater wealth, and control is simply a magicians trick to draw attention where she wants it.

In addition, it is demonstrably shown that because nearly all of the top 1% elite are men that they then advocate for men is a broken argument.
Women make 80% of household spending decisions. They also are 55% of the voters.
Women who are married routinely vote republican, since there is the depiction of democrats playing zero-sum games in their advocacy against men. If women change their vote based on their SITUATION then why would politicans not also arrange their stance based on the demographics of the voters?

If men’s views are being promulgated because the elites are men then can you explain any of these following mainstream airings?

ht [url=tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1J8wC1AWus&feature=related]tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1J8wC1AWus&feature=related[/url]

Here is Sharon Osbourne laughing uproarisly at a man who’s wife cut off his penis (for seeking divorce apparently). Not only does she laugh but the whole audience tee-hees along with her. This is broadcast to millions. Can you ever picture a show laughing at the mutilation of a women’s sex organs being broadcast to millions? The show would be closed down, and advertisers would leave the show. All that happened to the Talk is Sharon Osbourne apologized and took a voluntary hiatus.

ht [url=tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VihlsPKMh4U]tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VihlsPKMh4U[/url]
Look at some of the scenes of boy only CHILD ABUSE in movies like Mr. Woodcock and Bad Teacher

ht [url=tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGmz3wrpOJA]tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGmz3wrpOJA[/url]

Here is a commercial in which it is stated if your husband isn’t perfect beat the crap out of him:

ht [url=tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGmz3wrpOJA]tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGmz3wrpOJA[/url]

Beat your snoring husband:
ht [url=tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K07RKgt4KDg]tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K07RKgt4KDg[/url]

Or this department store commercial which shows men in the emergency room for buying the wrong their wives the wrong xmas gifts.
ht [url=tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJejr9jRyZs]tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJejr9jRyZs[/url]

How about any of the movies in which male rape is depicted as funny? This is a running theme in slapstick comedies like the Eurotrip “safe word” scene.

You reverse the genders on any of these instances and these marketing/writers would be out of a job and the companies boycotted.

Violence against men is seen as the ultimate joke. You can’t even make a case that violence against women in media is as pervasive or wide spread or as extreme.

If you really want to engage in an open dialogue (and not push your narrative on others) I would recommend reading Own Your Sh1t blog by girl writes what.

Rather than dealing in facts and figures, she uses a very concise expert writing style that centers on how men are dehumanized.

Even in the first half of 1900′s when (I will agree) women’s decisions were curtailed women were also vastly safer from harm. As a contrast, the men had the SEMBLANCE of freedom (work this dangerous job or starve) their lives were mostly about being used and abused.

Look at this video about the historic event of Patton slapping a soldier who said he had shell shock and couldn’t go back to the front (it was later determined he had malaria).

ht [url=tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZJcAeJ8YRo]tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZJcAeJ8YRo[/url]

When you direct your views to the COMMON man over the past 100 years you can see men were also harshly oppressed in addition to women, just in a much different way."

---------

A big thing I've always seen in 42 years on the earth is if a woman/girl hurts, there is concern. If a man/boy hurts, it's a joke or rarely discussed. After all, women are the emotional ones, right? I am mostly on women's side in a lot of socioeconomic issues so I'm not a pig.

I do believe those stats in bold.

Nothing against woman-kind at all. I've always preferred them to men due to the CSA/child abuse.

However, are men considered equals to women in the emotional categories? Nope. You could probably list 100 things women do without anyone saying anything but a man does it and his a wimp, pussy, fag, queen, etc. as other men see it. The bullies I had were all men (in your face bullying--behind my back I'm sure girls participated).

I do think women should be able to do almost anything a man can do (except war--women as support roles in military only).

The war against men has raged since the 80s at least. Ever watch commercials in the daytime and you'll see businesses all think we are morons. Women do 80% of the spending is mostly the reason, or is it? Some men deserve the war since they are pigs. But, it really hurts the other men that aren't.

It just seems to me that women are the only ones really cared for when it comes to emotional issues with regards to CSA.

Q: Is there a way to offer women equal footing in business, politics, the board room, sports, etc. without bashing all men in the first place so as to make women feel equal?

(No offense, girls, you are equal just some of us males would like it to not be at our species' social expense. Let's face it: girls can discuss gender issues without question but guys can't without scorn. Just me making this statement should be telling how hard it is to discuss gender issues.)

Note: It would be cool if women ruled the world IMO. They can't do any worse than the men that preceded them. Hehe





Edited by phoenix321 (02/12/12 07:00 PM)
_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

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#385487 - 02/12/12 08:19 PM Re: Men vs. Women [Re: phoenix321]
Esposa Offline
F&F Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 724
Loc: NJ
As the mother of a young boy, I am acutely aware of every single thing you list here. The singular act of telling a boy to "suck it up" is enough for me.


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#385491 - 02/12/12 09:03 PM Re: Men vs. Women [Re: Esposa]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
Originally Posted By: Esposa
As the mother of a young boy, I am acutely aware of every single thing you list here. The singular act of telling a boy to "suck it up" is enough for me.


Thanks.

I could go even further. The great recession was way worse for men overall than women. As women move more into positions of authority in businesses, the sexual harassment of men by women is exploding but the treatment is way different. I personally witnessed that.

My point is men and women should be considered equals with all the benefits and privileges being bestowed on each. And, end the wars against each other.

_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

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#385506 - 02/12/12 10:01 PM Re: Men vs. Women [Re: phoenix321]
GoodHope Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 417
It's a power dynamic more than numbers. So look at the supreme court, look at fortune 500 CEOs, wall street titans, government leaders, religious leaders. Most of the life changing decision makin power is concentrated in the hands of men. I don't buy that women are even close to oppressing men-these are my thoughts in general, not CSA specific.

I'm not sure that it's women who are keeping men from being protected emotionally. It's probably other men (who have power). Are there women who would tell men to suck it up? Of course there are, but I look at my husbands rape as a child through the eyes of a mother and there was nothing but full rolling boil rage in my heart for the child he was and the man he became. Only a clueless person (and there are many) would think that rape at any age would not impact your psyche in the future.

I don't like the direction society is going as it relates to fathers. Women re marginalizing men in this respect and minimizing the importance fathers play in the lives of children. I understand that sometimes things happen and relationships don't work out (heck, my own is hanging by a thread) but I don't like it for people to decide to have children knowing that the father will not necessariy be a permanent member of the household. My kids are what make me Work as hard as I have for my Marriage.




Edited by GoodHope (02/12/12 10:05 PM)
_________________________
Wife of a survivor

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#385509 - 02/12/12 10:14 PM Re: Men vs. Women [Re: GoodHope]
GoodHope Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 417
One final thought, when the pendulum truly swings the other way, it won't be one group of men (legislators) negotiating with another group of men (insurance executives) to fight another group of men (bishops and cardinals of churches) for covering birth control. If I were a good catholic woman (which apparently 98% of them ARE NOT cuz they use birth cobtrol) I just wouldn't fill the pre>


Edited by GoodHope (02/12/12 10:15 PM)
_________________________
Wife of a survivor

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#385518 - 02/12/12 11:36 PM Re: Men vs. Women [Re: GoodHope]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
Originally Posted By: GoodHope
One final thought, when the pendulum truly swings the other way, it won't be one group of men (legislators) negotiating with another group of men (insurance executives) to fight another group of men (bishops and cardinals of churches) for covering birth control. If I were a good catholic woman (which apparently 98% of them ARE NOT cuz they use birth cobtrol) I just wouldn't fill the pre>
_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

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#385520 - 02/12/12 11:54 PM Re: Men vs. Women [Re: phoenix321]
Disappointed Offline


Registered: 08/11/09
Posts: 540
Loc: U.S.A.
Dear Phoenix,

Men are oppressed. That is a fact. I'm really sorry about it, but it started before I had any influence. And I was brainwashed into it.

But, now, having seen it as an adult for 20 years, all things being equal, I choose a man's side. Because he's probably been taken advantage of, and kicked when he was down.

Don't have much use for women, and their crocodile tears. What's in their stomach? A man they ate for breakfast!

Here! Here!

D.

_________________________
Female.

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#385568 - 02/13/12 10:59 AM Re: Men vs. Women [Re: Disappointed]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
Originally Posted By: Disappointed
Dear Phoenix,

Men are oppressed. That is a fact. I'm really sorry about it, but it started before I had any influence. And I was brainwashed into it.

But, now, having seen it as an adult for 20 years, all things being equal, I choose a man's side. Because he's probably been taken advantage of, and kicked when he was down.

Don't have much use for women, and their crocodile tears. What's in their stomach? A man they ate for breakfast!

Here! Here!

D.


Thanks for the reply.

The point of this was to make people think. There's no right or wrong answer to the question.

_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

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#386035 - 02/16/12 12:38 PM Re: Men vs. Women [Re: phoenix321]
Shawushka Offline


Registered: 01/05/11
Posts: 128
Loc: VA
Hardcore feminist answering here, so fasten your seat belt please. grin (but don't throw your sense of humour out of the window!)

First of all, I do not believe at all that there is a war waged against men nor do I believe that they are oppressed and even less do I believe that women at large oppress men.
In my opinion, if you are male, white, live in an industrialised country and think you're oppressed it makes me wonder which planet you are living on.

There is wide spread discrimination against women in the work place, I've experience plenty of it myself - whether that is being paid less, than my male counter parts, being reduced to my uterus cause I'm still in child bearing age, to blatant daily, verbal sexism.

Then take a look at tv and magazine adds. Whether it's perfume or a Sihl's Chainsaws (or Pirelli tires) - it's women's bodies who are objectified to sell something and they are always, always portrayed as being sexually available, seductive. This is a picture that is pervasive and manifests itself in the conscience of our society. Imagine something absurd like "Always Ultra's Calender 2012" with naked, lucid, sexually available men...
Then, don't even get started on porn. It's appalling how much straightforward hatred there is against women. I've watched and awful lot and find 99% of it sickening, because of the way women are portrayed in porn. Fair enough, I've also met guys who 'watched too much porn' and thought if they don't perform like a porn star, something's wrong with them.

It is still women who are disadvantaged, because they do the majority of child care and in an aging society take care for the elderly. Those women miss out on building up a decent pension fund, end up poor when they reach retirement age.
Women who chose to work full-time and drop their children of at day-care are still often frowned upon. Whereas few men are asked how they intend to combine their career with child rearing.
Divorced mothers are the ones set up for poverty, women are economically no where near where men are.

So far, my opinion on the point that women are supposed to not be disadvantaged.

However, two wrongs doesn't make a thing right and I view feminism not as a "Men vs Women" fight. Imho, it is wrong to vilify all men and act as if they are monsters who spend their days oppressing women.
I do think that a lot of men suffer as much as women do from the patriarchal society.
One result of patriarchy is that women are seen as caring, vulnerable, available, etc. and are therefore allowed to be victims, it is accepted that they can get hurt - hence we are all willing to allocate resources to institutions that foster the advancement of women, care for abused, etc.
The opposite is that men are supposed to be the leaders, strong, manly, etc. Men don't get hurt, boys don't cry. So why should we allocate resources to help hurt men? Suck it up, if you're a real men. That is the common thought of society (not mine!).

I do think that we also must allocate as much help to males than we do to females. We must stop teaching boys 'not to cry and suck it up'. We should teach our boys that it's okay to cry and relieve those emotions, talk about them. It doesn't emasculate a man when he knows how to cook and enjoys to spend times with his children.

If the whole equation was more balanced, both men and women would benefit and we should all work together to better our lives.
Men would also benefit for instance if they could take parental leave. How many retired men have I spoken to, who spend lots of time with their grandkids and it makes them realise how much they have missed out with their own kid's childhood because they were supposed to take care of the family income.

And when I say it goes both ways, I mean it because interestingly I've recently read about a poll whose result was that working women are much more likely to view their income as 'theirs' not 'ours'.
Also, I guess each of us knows at least one woman who ends up doing all the housework because she's convinced her husband can't do it. I can hear them "oh, he just can't do the laundry." "He's just doesn't do the dishes properly." "Yeah, mine also hasn't got a clue." - and they rip the vacuum cleaner out of his hands and do it themselves. Oh dear, would I feel inadequate if I was that husband and it's no surprise if such a guy gives up.

We also do have to examine why the majority of prisoners are male, homeless, criminals, etc. Personally I do not believe that is because they are oppressed by women but it is a result of a strongly, conservative, patriarchal society.
As a feminist I would welcome if the issue would be treated more holistic instead of being reduced to women's issues only. I would welcome if more father's would be granted custody over their children, simply because just being a woman doesn't necessarily make you a good parent. But then as a society we'd also have to stop frowning upon woman who get divorced and decide to leave the kids with the father.


Oh my, this OP clearly hit a nerve with me! I better stop!








Edited by Shawushka (02/16/12 01:16 PM)

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#386045 - 02/16/12 01:32 PM Re: Men vs. Women [Re: Shawushka]
Shawushka Offline


Registered: 01/05/11
Posts: 128
Loc: VA
btw. I read the answers to the original article on the goodmenproject and think this respondent wrote exactly what i thought:

"Sorry but this is nonsense. All of these so-called “female privileges” are effects of having a lower status.
1). There is no stigma against objectifying men because it doesn’t have real consequences, no-one expects you will actually rape or overpower a man. On the other hand objectifying comments towards women are condoned and encouraged by sexualised images of women everywhere so I fail to see how this is a privilege?

2). Male abusers are often taller and stronger than their female victims, and do more harm. Whats more bias towards women is just an expression of belief in their vulnerability. Its not an equal effects/equal opportunity circumstance. 3). Women as natural parents is a patriarchal ideology. I’m pretty sure men can adopt children when they are not in a relationship.

4). Being financially supported by a man was traditionally a woman’s only access to food in her belly and clothes on her back, it was a consolation prize for not having any individual autonomy. If you want to subscribe to oppressive gender roles that’s your deal. 5). Being able to call a male troll names is a privilege? Pretty sure male writers do not get swamped in rape threats or sexualised comments to belittle their opinions because they are men on the internet."


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