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#384747 - 02/07/12 03:24 PM hitting bottom
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
I've been told I'll be ready for "serious work" on my healing when I "hit bottom". I swear, someone keeps moving the base - get so low I can't go lower, and I go lower. How can you hit bottom when it's a moving, every sinking target?? I keep thinking it can't get worse. I can't get more depressed. Yet I do.
Does this mean I'm stronger than I think - or life is just much worse than I ever figured??????


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#384749 - 02/07/12 03:26 PM Re: hitting bottom [Re: MarkK]
ACRoberts Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/07/10
Posts: 242
Loc: New Jersey (recently moved fro...
Mark,
I can totally relate. I think someone keeps moving the bottom on me. My T tells me it is like peeling the layers of an onion. When one removes a layer, there are new things to discover underneath. I don't like hearing this, but it seems to be true for me. I would like to hope that we are both stronger than we think. Hang in there!

_________________________
Allan
________________________
WOR Sequoia 2011--it has changed my life!

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#384752 - 02/07/12 03:46 PM Re: hitting bottom [Re: ACRoberts]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
I think I've peeled this onion to where it became a black hole and STILL has layers...


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#384754 - 02/07/12 03:49 PM Re: hitting bottom [Re: ACRoberts]
Sailor John Offline


Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 307
Loc: Newfoundland & Labrador
Hi Mark,

First, I'm finally beginning to believe that anybody that was abused is stronger than we give ourselves credit for. Look what we've been through already!!!

My doctor told me basically the same as AC. She said that your mind will not let you uncover something until your mind "clears it" with your brain. You may know there is something waiting to be "cleared" but until it is, you won't get access to it. That way, you can process what you know now without having to worry that your brain will be overwhelmed with the shit being already processed. I find that to be big time true.

_________________________
I will mourn the teenager I never was and strive to make that dot of light way out in the far reaches of the end of the tunnel turn into a bright sun.

WE ARE NOT VICTIMS. WE ARE THE SURVIVORS!!!

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#384823 - 02/07/12 10:45 PM Re: hitting bottom [Re: Sailor John]
traveler Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 3322
Loc: somewhere in Africa
MarkK - don't wait for the bottom! Start now! if there is more bad stuff to be uncovered, you won't have as far to fall. You'll already be in a place where you've established a base or support system, team or person to help you through. Waiting for the other shoe to drop is excruciating.

Like Sailor John said, you'll get more garbage to process when you can handle it. My experience was that some of the worst memories weren't of the physical and sexual abuse but of the emotional abuse of abandonment and collaboration through apathy and denial by my mom and others. Once the more tangible stuff was identified and accepted, the deeper more abstract issues also surfaced - not what i'd have expected.

And Yeah - like ACR said - you are stronger than you think. you made it this far by sheer grit, willpower, improvisation and any other tactic that worked for you. Good job! Now to grow into the next stage where the tools and tactics are more appropriate and effective... Wish i knew who said it first:"You survived abuse - you can survive recovery!"

Regards,
Lee

_________________________
As my life goes on I believe somehow something's changed
Something deep inside...
I've been searchin so long to find an answer
Now I know my life has meaning
Now I see myself as I am, feeling very free...
When my tears have come to an end I will understand
What I left behind: a part of me. Chicago


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#384877 - 02/08/12 10:07 AM Re: hitting bottom [Re: traveler]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
do you know how frustrating it is to hear "you'll recover more when you can handle it" ?? what is heard - - "you'll get better when you're better" say what?? since I'm not uncovering more, I am therefore NOT able to handle it. what else is new?? to tell someone with no self worth that he's just not good enough to get better ... well, all I can say is it don't work for me.

_________________________
the story
    https://1in6.org/men/bristlecone/mark-krueger/

Kirkridge - October 2008
Alta - September 2012
Alta - September 2013

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#384886 - 02/08/12 10:42 AM Re: hitting bottom [Re: MarkK]
traveler Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 3322
Loc: somewhere in Africa
Yes, actually, I do know that feeling, MarkK.
Sorry i said the wrong thing.
Please let me explain a bit...

I personally jsut had to put aside the stuff I couldn't reach and work on the stuff I could. LAter on more came to light.

I see it like a book. I can't read all the pages at once. So i read the one that is open and then the next one and eventually I may make it through all of them. the story was not in chronological - or any other kind of logical order - more like one of those stream of consciousness ones where the time and events are all jumbled up , but later all the details begin to fit together and start to make sense. And it is hard work.

At the moment i don't even care if i never remember another "new" memory. i think i'd be kind of relieved not to.
obviously you're not at that place and i empathize. I remember how it made me crazy not knowing why i ws the way i was and knowing tha there must be reasons that i could not grasp.

I think one thing that might have helped some of my memories to surface was reading lots of other guys stories and posts as well as books on CSA. There were things i sort of recognized or that triggered me and before too long - up would pop a lost memory that i recognized as authentic - not jsut a fantasy prompted by someone else's issues. I knew they were real. Some were so vivid it ws jsut like experienceing them again - not like amemory at all - maybe more of a flashback - and not fun.

It ws hard subjecting myself to so many triggers and i spent a lot of time in tears or panic attack-type symptoms, but it did shake stuff loose. Take it easy tho - don't push yourself too hard. It can cause worse depression - voice of experience.

I hope that this will, if nothing more, show that i don't take your feelings of frustration lightly.

Please forgive me for offending you. I didn't mean to.
Lee

_________________________
As my life goes on I believe somehow something's changed
Something deep inside...
I've been searchin so long to find an answer
Now I know my life has meaning
Now I see myself as I am, feeling very free...
When my tears have come to an end I will understand
What I left behind: a part of me. Chicago


Top
#384936 - 02/08/12 03:37 PM Re: hitting bottom [Re: traveler]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
you haven't offended me. I'm just vocalizing what I'm feeling. I didn't mean to attack.

_________________________
the story
    https://1in6.org/men/bristlecone/mark-krueger/

Kirkridge - October 2008
Alta - September 2012
Alta - September 2013

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#384946 - 02/08/12 04:57 PM Re: hitting bottom [Re: MarkK]
livelovelaugh Offline


Registered: 01/13/12
Posts: 33
Loc: New Jersey
I feel exactly where you are coming from in your feelings. I am feeling the same way... Once I think, ok, it cant get worse and now I can finally focus myself, it seems to get worse, spiraling into depression and anxiety and, an ever present mentality of why? I have striven to make amends and changes but always seem to be knocked down at aome point later on. How do you move on and begin recovery when you are always bombarded halfway through a recovery and brought back down to square one...it is hard. A friend of mine auggested writing about where I want to be and be doing in six months, what would make me happy and content, regardless of how impossible it may seem now, but to keep reading that and taking myaelf there. I think sometimes when we just focus on all the megativity we cant focus o. Anything positive, it was good and it gives me a fallback on, I have even tried recalling happy positive moments of my childhood to replace the negative ones which was not easy at all...but it helps me stay balanced amd I have something to read or visualize when I do start to spiral... It isnt a solution but it does help me cope and focus when I meed to.

_________________________
"...and it was then that I carried you..."
Footprints in the Sand

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#385029 - 02/09/12 09:01 AM Re: hitting bottom [Re: livelovelaugh]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
one of the "joys" of having no memories - can't recall "happy positive moments" any more than I can recall the abuse. Not in enough detail to say "yes - that happened". instead I get vague foggy thoughts and recollections.

maybe the point is accepting the unacceptable. my past is over and i can't do it over so why even worry about remembering it. and if it weren't for the fact that so much of my life is reacting to things i don't remember - maybe i could just move on.

_________________________
the story
    https://1in6.org/men/bristlecone/mark-krueger/

Kirkridge - October 2008
Alta - September 2012
Alta - September 2013

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#385034 - 02/09/12 09:23 AM Re: hitting bottom [Re: MarkK]
traveler Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 3322
Loc: somewhere in Africa
*** if it weren't for the fact that so much of my life is reacting to things i don't remember - maybe i could just move on. ***

YES - Eloquently expressed!

_________________________
As my life goes on I believe somehow something's changed
Something deep inside...
I've been searchin so long to find an answer
Now I know my life has meaning
Now I see myself as I am, feeling very free...
When my tears have come to an end I will understand
What I left behind: a part of me. Chicago


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#385117 - 02/10/12 12:50 AM Re: hitting bottom [Re: MarkK]
whome Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/07/11
Posts: 1734
Loc: Johannesburg South Africa
Be careful that you don't spiral down to total depression and suicide.

Try to change what you think about, you seem to be caught up in a spiral of bad thoughts.
Try some NLP, or mind power, or some Anthony Robbins, anything to get some positive input into your life.

Heal well
Martin

_________________________
Matrix Men South Africa
Survivors Supporting Each other
Matrix Men Blog

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#385181 - 02/10/12 02:06 PM Re: hitting bottom [Re: whome]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
Martin - don't know what NLP, mind power, or Anthony Robbins is/are - but I do understand the total depression - that's why I'm actually considering going into therapy again. The days and nights are just too difficult.

_________________________
the story
    https://1in6.org/men/bristlecone/mark-krueger/

Kirkridge - October 2008
Alta - September 2012
Alta - September 2013

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#385250 - 02/11/12 01:58 AM Re: hitting bottom [Re: MarkK]
whome Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/07/11
Posts: 1734
Loc: Johannesburg South Africa
Mark do go into therapy, please. Last year I went to seven funerals. This year we had the tragic loss of eyesforwards partner. Please don't become another stat.

You need to start to focus on good things, take one thing that has happened that is good and look at it, then find another and another. You need to almost get physical with your brain and when it sees bad you need to almost visualize yourself throwing that bad thought out.

Focus on the fact that thousands have healed from this curse, and that you can be one off those too.

PM me if you need any guidance, or if you feel down. remember that you have friends here, even if we have never met.

You are a valuable allies in the fight against csa, WE NEED YOU, WE WANT YOU WITH US.

Heal well
Martin

_________________________
Matrix Men South Africa
Survivors Supporting Each other
Matrix Men Blog

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#385265 - 02/11/12 08:10 AM Re: hitting bottom [Re: whome]
Mountainous Buck Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/15/09
Posts: 1626
Loc: Minnesota
Mark
Thanks for putting this out there -

WhoTF said you have to hit a deeper bottom?

Willingness to change, to grow, and to get better are what is really essential.

Im sure you have already worked thru a lot already- can you list some of those accomplishments for us here? What did WoR teach you? What has MS taught you in your time here?

What strengths for assets have you built for yourself? I'd love to hear those too. And I bet lots of men here could benefit from your sharing these lessons..

And What is the next page in your story? What would you want for yourself in February 2012?

My hope for you is that you keep plugging into positive sources of healing and recovery and unplug more and more from the negative stuff and naysayers- (I k know my worst critic is between my ears.!)

_________________________
We have to take responsibility for what we're not responsible for.

“It doesn't matter where you've come from,
It matters where you go" Frank Turner

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#385301 - 02/11/12 12:41 PM Re: hitting bottom [Re: Mountainous Buck]
Treehugger75 Offline


Registered: 02/08/12
Posts: 158
Loc: Ontario Canada
To keep the analogy moving right along.... when i "hit bottom" i had no idea it was coming. The hole i was falling into was sooooo black no matter how fast the bottom was coming at me all i saw was black. so the whole time even inches away from what WAS the bottom looked like it streched to the depths of the abyss and i'd be falling forevr. once my eyes adjusted, and the pain from landing went away, i could see where i was and began my climb. I have no allusions this will be fast or easy on me or my support net.

_________________________
I will never ALWAYS be right, I wasn't wrong, I am whats left.

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#385338 - 02/11/12 04:23 PM Re: hitting bottom [Re: Treehugger75]
DannyT Offline
Member

Registered: 09/14/03
Posts: 402
Mark,

It's true that the bottom can seem to drop and drop and drop.

What I've found over the years is that you find the real and final bottom to the pain when you learn to see it as a cloud of emotional chemistry that is covering up your ability to see the world as it truly is.

My best example is of an anxiety attack so extreme that I was lying in the fetal position on my living room rug crying uncontrollably and facing waves of anxiety so huge that it was like being crushed by millions of tons of water, pounded into a smaller and smaller self so that I had no where to go.

I've never experienced anything like it in my entire life. That was the bottom for me.

And when it it got so bad and so extreme that there wasn't any smaller that I could get

And when I realized that I was still alive!

there came this moment of amazing insight. And I just looked at the anxiety and said, "Is that all you have?! Is that it?! Bring it on! Give me everything you've got!"

And suddenly though the anxiety was still fifty foot waves, I was the awesomest surfer who ever lived, riding high and laughing, the adrenaline surging like never before in my life.

It went from being the worst day of my life to one of the most amazing.

It's never been as bad again. I've had anxiety since, but it's always been manageable.

What I'm getting at: You hit the bottom when you're ready to say, I can ride it out. I guess on some level for me, that was the day I stopped being a victim of my own attitudes towards my past.

It was the coolest thing ever.

I hope this is helpful,


Danny


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#385416 - 02/12/12 03:32 AM Re: hitting bottom [Re: DannyT]
traveler Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 3322
Loc: somewhere in Africa
Great example, Danny!
thanks for sharing it.
i will remember it as a help in the future.
Lee

_________________________
As my life goes on I believe somehow something's changed
Something deep inside...
I've been searchin so long to find an answer
Now I know my life has meaning
Now I see myself as I am, feeling very free...
When my tears have come to an end I will understand
What I left behind: a part of me. Chicago


Top
#385557 - 02/13/12 09:24 AM Re: hitting bottom [Re: DannyT]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: DannyT
What I'm getting at: You hit the bottom when you're ready to say, I can ride it out.

then i well may never hit bottom because i don't see how i'll ever be able to "ride it out".

_________________________
the story
    https://1in6.org/men/bristlecone/mark-krueger/

Kirkridge - October 2008
Alta - September 2012
Alta - September 2013

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#385583 - 02/13/12 01:33 PM Re: hitting bottom [Re: MarkK]
Dan99 Offline


Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 100
Loc: Washington DC
In my mind, hitting bottom just means that the need you feel to address the CSA is more powerful than whatever is holding you back from getting help ... shame, anger, whatever. Sometimes it never happens and people never get help.

My first sponsor in NA put it to me very clearly. He said life is a banquet hall, and I'm at the table where they're serving up misery. And I can eat until I am sick and then eat more for as long as I can stand it.

But I can also push myself away from that table and choose another one where they are serving something better for me. Just a matter of choosing to take that action.

But his main point was that nobody could make me make a choice to stay with what I was doing or move on to something else. It was mine alone and, in reality, very few people care one way or the other what I did. Hitting bottom is just another name for deciding to change.

I waited a lot of years because I didn't like what it said about me to have to go to therapy and look for help in working on my CSA. I tried a ton of other ways to avoid it. But finally, I decided to do the thing I hated most because I couldn't live the way I was living, and any change would be better.

I've thought a lot about the choice since then. People who say life gets great for CSA survivors are full of shit, IMO. It may get good for some. God bless them. Maybe it will for me. Until now, life's gotten somewhat better. And I'm at least proud of the choice I making.

So maybe that's hitting bottom...When life gets so shitty that even a little improvement is worth the effort and pain and indignity of dealing with this crap. Good luck on your journey. As always, if anything I've said is helpful, that's great; that was my intent. If it's not useful, please just disregard it as just some nut posting on a bulletin board.

_________________________
Work like you don't need the money;
dance like no one is watching;
sing like no one is listening;
love like you've never been hurt;
and live life every day as if it were your last.

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#385585 - 02/13/12 01:38 PM Re: hitting bottom [Re: Dan99]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
I've been down the therapy road before; last time 4 years of it. Thinking about starting again - gonna talk to a guy this week. The more I hear about hitting bottom - any definition - the scarier this whole thing gets.

_________________________
the story
    https://1in6.org/men/bristlecone/mark-krueger/

Kirkridge - October 2008
Alta - September 2012
Alta - September 2013

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#385612 - 02/13/12 06:57 PM Re: hitting bottom [Re: MarkK]
traveler Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 3322
Loc: somewhere in Africa

I think "hitting bottom" is a myth we can do without.
Like "God won't give you anything you can't handle."
And "What doesn't kill you makes you stonger."
ALL BS for people who want to help but don't know what to say.

It's a lie... I love John Mayer's song, *No Such Thing*
especially the lines:

**I wanna run through the halls of my high school
I wanna scream at the
Top of my lungs
I just found out there's no such thing as the real world
just a LIE you've got to rise above...

They love to tell you
Stay inside the lines
But something's better
On the other side...

I am invincible (x3)
As long as I'm alive**

Cheers!
Lee

_________________________
As my life goes on I believe somehow something's changed
Something deep inside...
I've been searchin so long to find an answer
Now I know my life has meaning
Now I see myself as I am, feeling very free...
When my tears have come to an end I will understand
What I left behind: a part of me. Chicago


Top
#386162 - 02/17/12 08:47 AM Re: hitting bottom [Re: traveler]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
a myth ... interesting thought. does that mean there is no "bottom" and I could be falling the rest of my life?

my thoughts regarding "God won't give you anything you can't handle" - people often will leave off the second half of that>
_________________________
the story
    https://1in6.org/men/bristlecone/mark-krueger/

Kirkridge - October 2008
Alta - September 2012
Alta - September 2013

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#386193 - 02/17/12 07:19 PM Re: hitting bottom [Re: MarkK]
traveler Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 3322
Loc: somewhere in Africa
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SORRY! What i meant was it's a myth that "You have to hit bottom before you can get help"!

I think you can start anywhere if you want to and are willing to work at it. Maybe you will end up digging a little deeper when the time is right but that is totally different from an endless free fall.

Right about that quote - being incomplete - providing a way of escape - but if my memory is right, it is talking about dealing with temptation - not trauma and pain and hard times in general. But still a good encouragement when taken in context.

Hang in there! You are going to make it! to paraphrase a famous movie line:
"I have a very GOOD feeling about this..."

Prevail! (my new favorite word)
Lee

_________________________
As my life goes on I believe somehow something's changed
Something deep inside...
I've been searchin so long to find an answer
Now I know my life has meaning
Now I see myself as I am, feeling very free...
When my tears have come to an end I will understand
What I left behind: a part of me. Chicago


Top
#387202 - 02/25/12 11:20 AM Re: hitting bottom [Re: traveler]
DannyT Offline
Member

Registered: 09/14/03
Posts: 402
Hi Mark,

Interesting discussion. As I've been thinking about it, the idea of hitting bottom is itself kind of strange. I'm guessing the bottom really was the abuse, then there's all the years of dealing with it. Right now I'm seeing it as images from The Birds, lots of crows pecking and pecking and pecking.

At that point we're on the upswing, as awful as the upswing may be. And we have incredible endurance. In a way the final moment for me (for lack of a better phrase) is when something happens, and the endurance hardens into a kind of teflon that makes the birds bounce off. If that makes sense.

I think the root of the transformation is (for me) forgiveness and love. I was writing in my journal the other day that to cure myself of whining and despair, I have to love myself and hug myself and use this mantra (from Jack Kornfield). I do it when I'm really sad in bed. I hug myself and say: Let me be filled with lovingkindness. Let me be well. Let me lie peaceful and serene. Let me be whole.

Danny


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#387407 - 02/26/12 07:12 PM Re: hitting bottom [Re: DannyT]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
i guess that works when you believe you deserve it?

_________________________
the story
    https://1in6.org/men/bristlecone/mark-krueger/

Kirkridge - October 2008
Alta - September 2012
Alta - September 2013

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#387416 - 02/26/12 07:49 PM Re: hitting bottom [Re: livelovelaugh]
devon0 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/07/00
Posts: 45
Loc: TX, USA
Quote:
A friend of mine auggested writing about where I want to be and be doing in six months, what would make me happy and content, regardless of how impossible it may seem now, but to keep reading that and taking myaelf there.


Similarly, my therapist told me to write down three things I wanted. For the first time in my life, I was asking myself what I wanted! It took a month of consideration but finally I came up with 1) a family, 2) a home and 3) serenity. It took a few years but I got all three. And now, when I get frightened or worried, I look at what I have and I find comfort and peace.

_________________________
A life worth living.

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#387423 - 02/26/12 08:26 PM Re: hitting bottom [Re: devon0]
Avery46 Offline


Registered: 09/23/10
Posts: 1243
Loc: USA
MarkK,

You are awesome!!! Getting this far on your journey is a great accomplishment. I can sense it as I read what you write. I believe in you.

I hope you find the awesomeness for which I believe you are alive for.

Your experience is very unique to you.

Peace,
Avery



Edited by Avery46 (02/26/12 09:17 PM)
_________________________
aka DJsport

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#387753 - 02/29/12 09:35 AM Re: hitting bottom [Re: Avery46]
Mountainous Buck Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/15/09
Posts: 1626
Loc: Minnesota
There are many ways i get the guts to change course.

- Hitting a wall
-Hitting bottom
-Hitting a speed bump
-Driving my life into the ditch
-Getting hit across the head with a 2 x 4

In recovery I learn how to integrate life skills into my daily living.

-listening to the still qiuiet voice within
-journalling about my fears and failures
-asking for help

Those are LOTS easier than the painful things the world tries to get my attention with. I choose to take the easier (although difficult for a man with my background) path towards a better day and a better life.

_________________________
We have to take responsibility for what we're not responsible for.

“It doesn't matter where you've come from,
It matters where you go" Frank Turner

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