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#384095 - 02/01/12 10:10 PM Re: Human Touch & Recovery from CSA [Re: traveler]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1352
Loc: New York
Peace,Rainbows & Healing


Edited by lapchinj (03/16/13 11:40 PM)
_________________________
Stick around, It will get better....

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#384100 - 02/01/12 11:53 PM Re: Human Touch & Recovery from CSA [Re: lapchinj]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6875
Loc: USA
This is a very important discussion.

It certainly played a role in my life.

Part of my story is the message of the award winning movie: The Help. We had a helper like that when I was a baby boy. I was told about her years later. I think she provided warmth and touch which would have otherwise been unavailable. I can also read it in my inner response to black women. I have a warm emotional response to women who must remind me of her, and love the way they laugh. I vaguely remember her name*.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbuKgzgeUIU

It bothers me that the spin put on the movie is sometimes racial. I think the real message is that true love is stronger than race.

Puffer

I think her name was/is Dahlia or something like that.






Edited by pufferfish (02/02/12 12:11 AM)

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#384109 - 02/02/12 04:44 AM Re: Human Touch & Recovery from CSA [Re: whome]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
Originally Posted By: whome
Odd I lacked touch at home, I craved it and I suppose that is what made me vulnerable and opened the door to the abuse.
Today being 48, I still crave the touch and I am always touching and hugging my wife and daughter.

I can see though how the touch thing affects survivors, and how they cringe from it.

I was on a course a number of years ago and there it was stated that a child needs three things in life to make him/her a well rounded child. They called them the Three Pillars of Raising Children.

Nurturing: which covers the following. Education, mental stimulation, physical nurturing like food and sustenance, and physical nurturing such as exercise, clothes and the likes.

Love:Love covers the following, Mental love such as praise, compassion, sympathy. Physical such as hugs and kisses. External love such as a love for nature, animals, siblings and the likes.

Security: Security covers the following, A safe place to stay, a safe person to talk to, safe arms to hide in when hurt. food security and peace of mind.

If one of these pillars are missing, then the child will instinctively go out in search of the missing pillar, and that is when the perps enter into the fray, or the drink and drugs.

Wish I knew that when I was 6 or 7.

Thanks for the post

Heal well
Martin


Sorry, everyone if you didn't get the touch you needed.

I was reading on child development to try and figure out what I missed growing up. That childlike I haven't been touched at all really since like early 2005. I space out, dissociate if anyone tries to hug me. When I was a kid, everything thing had a cost. Literal cost. I was better off hiding, staying away from everyone in the "family". Emotionally, I was way better off not expressing anything. If my sperm donor saw I was happy, he'd do his best to fuck it up. Consequently, childhood is gone. Don't ever want to know. Physical and emotional withholding was justified with religion on top of it.

When I raped (I no long use the word molested) at 3 1/2, everything shut down, turned off. The little I remember about childhood (4-17) was trying to avoid anything. The sweet little kid was gone, forever. Carefree, not worried about anything childhood experience kids are supposed to have died totally the night I was raped. What was left died when I got home and had to endure yelling, screaming, beating, told I was stupid, worthless, useless, etc.

What all you guys have said really says people are not alone.

What Martin said, "Nurturing: which covers the following. Education, mental stimulation, physical nurturing like food and sustenance, and physical nurturing such as exercise, clothes and the likes.

Love: Love covers the following, Mental love such as praise, compassion, sympathy. Physical such as hugs and kisses. External love such as a love for nature, animals, siblings and the likes.

Security: Security covers the following, A safe place to stay, a safe person to talk to, safe arms to hide in when hurt. food security and peace of mind."

CSA victims like us (and the female victims of CSA) have no idea how to act with emotionally stable people. No idea what boundaries are so the choice to avoid it becomes simply the easiest choice. It being hugs, praise, comforting, you know what human beings are supposed to be. CSA is bad enough then some of us get the general child abuse on top of it.

Touch therapy is for little kids that didn't get it from what they said.

What is intimacy to a CSA survivor? Sex. If you are addicted to sex, you're trying to get what you didn't get with non-sexual intimacy. You might be 8 and go looking for it like Martin did (Sorry, guy) or you shut it off totally (like me) so you don't have to feel anything.

Touch that is unconditional acceptance (love), nurture, sense of safety is always needed. Old people (no offense) that are in retirement homes always want to touch you hands. Why? The need it like everyone else. I read that ones that have no human contact die quicker and ones that do have human contact recover. Babies die without it. Kids die without it. Adults die without it.

I think like what Martin said is why CSA victims have shame and believe they were at fault.

It definitely makes sense why people with CSA have health issues like me. CSA and child abuse is deadly. People that lived in abusive homes and didn't have CSA suffer the effects too.

So, other people are required for recovery and healing. I personally think it is the difference in whether we heal or not. No man/woman is an island even on this journey. Or, especially on this journey. Don't turn away relationships because you're "healing" like some said on here. Unless you have relationships, do you really heal in the first place?

_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

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#384110 - 02/02/12 04:46 AM Re: Human Touch & Recovery from CSA [Re: pufferfish]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
Originally Posted By: pufferfish
This is a very important discussion.

It certainly played a role in my life.

Part of my story is the message of the award winning movie: The Help. We had a helper like that when I was a baby boy. I was told about her years later. I think she provided warmth and touch which would have otherwise been unavailable. I can also read it in my inner response to black women. I have a warm emotional response to women who must remind me of her, and love the way they laugh. I vaguely remember her name*.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbuKgzgeUIU

It bothers me that the spin put on the movie is sometimes racial. I think the real message is that true love is stronger than race.

Puffer

I think her name was/is Dahlia or something like that.



Puffer, sorry.

Luckily I grew up with all kinds of different races, origins, religions, etc. so I don't have such thoughts that some races are better than others. Didn't really hear racism and bigotry from anyone except in the south.



Edited by phoenix321 (02/02/12 04:51 AM)
_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

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#384146 - 02/02/12 03:10 PM Re: Human Touch & Recovery from CSA [Re: phoenix321]
petercorbett Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/27/08
Posts: 2493
Loc: TEXAS
Hi, my fraternal brothers.

A human touch. From the one that brought him into this world, meant pain, shame,& guilt. Beatings & berating were her weapons of choice, until the sexual part came along. Her version of a human touch other than beatings, was when she bathe me and dried me off. She was interested in my genital area from 5 years on.

Her lack of a motherly touch & emotional connection for her son would change his life forever. There were a few females in my youth that did give me an human touch.Friends of my "mom." They caressed me, hugged me and told me that they loved me. However we were not together long enough for me to form an emotional & mental bond with them.

With my boyhood friends (boys) i was always touching them, hugs, pats on the butt, wrestling, etc. Boys stuff. And they touched me in return. I did form an emotional, mental & physical bond with them. We were together through out our youth from the day we were born until i moved out from Boston at 14 years of age. A human touch.

My years in that orphanage/Home would see me have a special human bond with another boy, who was just like me.He was ungainly, he was a loner & shy. We were attracted to each other.We were always hugging each other, caressing each other and get into sexual things together. We would spend most of our free time together. We would get into "wrestling" with one another. We were two Gay boys. The other 49 or so sure we were brothers, we played, ate went to class & slept together. We had human touch contact with each other. A human touch.

At the age of eight, i found someone(or he found me) who would give me a human touch,The warmth of a human body. Someone who would hold me, caress me, hug me, kiss me and tell me that he loved me.I was with him between the ages of 8-14. This boy had formed an emotional, mental, physical & eventually sexual bond with him. I genuinely loved him. He was a friend of the family. He would change my life forever. Because of a human a touch. It would take me many years to realise that his love for me was tainted.
I got married to a woman, but from me there was no human emotional touch for her, save for the sexual part. We hardly ever held hands. It was a rare day when I would hold & caress her. When ever she did touch me to get my attention, i got goose bumps and fell ill at ease.

With my two sons, it was totally different. Every time that i had seen them i would get down to their level (when they were small boys)give them a warm hug, a kiss and tell them that i love you. I had great feelings when we did that, and it continues right up to this day. The same goes for my two boys (grandsons 11&12.) Hugs, kisses, love human touches every time that we meet.

A while back I got myself into a position not of my making. It was where I was being groomed by another adult we were both getting way too emotional in our dealings as he started kissing me, holding me, caressing me, telling me that he loved me, and I did the same in return to him. It was getting to become sexual. However it did not get that far. At that time perhaps he didn't want it to go that far. Later i had wished that it did go all the way.The human touch.

Right now in this stage of my recovery, as a lonely Gay boy/man i am trying to figure out something, my need for human touch & love. I am confused but need to come to terms with it.

Here is where i am.
Is it the young Pete, the boy, still trying to find someone to(replace) the human touches, emotional bonding and love that he did not receive from a parent(s)?

Or, is it the man Pete trying to find someone who will hold, caress, kiss tell him that I love you with a human touch forever? Giving his love to his partner in return.

If it's the boy Pete, looking for lost love as that boy. Then his partnership will be doomed from the beginning. As the love that we/he missed as boys can not ever be replaced. He cannot become the parent that i never had.

Trying to figure it all out. The need for a human touch. Maake any darn sense to anyone?

Wishing my fraternal brothers, well in healing.

"I will take that lost boys hand, and I will lead him from the depths of darkness, into the sunshine, forever into eternity." As he is mPete..Irishmoose.

_________________________
Working Boys' Home 10-14 yrs old, grades 5-8. 1949-1953
____________________________________________________________
A very humble alumni of the WOR Dahlonega, GA.
May 15-17 2009, Alta, Sep. 2009. Sequoia, 2010.
Hope Springs, 2010.


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#384186 - 02/02/12 10:30 PM Re: Human Touch & Recovery from CSA [Re: phoenix321]
ShortedDiode Offline


Registered: 11/26/11
Posts: 113
Loc: Hamilton, ON Canada
Originally Posted By: phoenix321

CSA victims like us (and the female victims of CSA) have no idea how to act with emotionally stable people. No idea what boundaries are so the choice to avoid it becomes simply the easiest choice. It being hugs, praise, comforting, you know what human beings are supposed to be. CSA is bad enough then some of us get the general child abuse on top of it.


I'm so sorry to you had to go through all that Phoenix. What you've written is so true though and very few people understand what it's like to live through that sort of situation. This has been something that's conflicted with me pretty badly too. My parents never sexually assaulted me but I can't see how the mental and physical abuse they did and the stuff that happened at school is isolated from what the two men who assaulted me did. I always thought the events were related to each other somehow beyond being items on a list that happened and contributed to the person I ended up becoming.

Touch = inflicting pain was the association I grew up with. Whether it was being beaten up by kids in the school yard while teachers ignored the problem because they were sick and tired of dealing with it or being thrashed at home by my parents didn't matter. The only time anybody touched me was to hurt me. Oddly, the reason for getting beaten up by school yard bullies and by my parents was the same - being learning disabled and in the learning centre at school dictated the school yard pecking order and my parents were furious that their kid was "defective" and they'd fly into a rage about that over the slightest thing. The screaming and yelling of putdowns and insults and anger were constant and it'd deteriorate into brutal violence on almost a daily basis with more screamed threats of more and worse. I didn't get any nurturing, loving or security touches from anybody when I was growing up.

I was totally convinced that nobody wanted me, that my value to anybody in the world was less than the dirt on the ground. "If one of these pillars are missing, then the child will instinctively go out in search of the missing pillar, and that is when the perps enter into the fray, or the drink and drugs." Reading that, I understand why I eventually fell in with the one adult I knew who was nice to me after he spent a lot of time overcoming my shyness and building my trust. All that was destroyed on that trip to his cottage where he forced himself on me and whatever was left of me after my parents and elementary school was shattered. And shattered again when I got suckered into the summer job from hell by someone who seemed like a nice guy.

The results are soul destroying though. Apart from the physical injuries, the mental effects are substantial. Unable to trust people. I jump out of my skin all the time. I jump at the slightest touch. If I don't know to expect it I jump if I feel a draft of air from something moving nearby. I jump if I hear gravel crunch behind me or if I hear a drawer slam shut or floorboards creak. It's involuntary - hard to suppress jumping even when I know something like that's going to happen and these panic jumps cause a big adrenaline rush and racing heart rate, tight muscles and have to fight to not take off running away at full speed. The climbdown after being set off is bad because I'll be all hot and sweaty, starving and needing to eat something and physically tired out. It's awful. It's hard to make friends with things like this that happen so easily so people are nervous to be near me and even harder to get close enough to be intimate with someone. I'm slowly working through those issues and while they're still present, they aren't as bad as they were five years ago. And I'm in 100% agreement that the health effects are devastating.

The only conclusion I've been able to draw is that by the time a survivor reaches a place like this website, the damage done is so bad that they're either shunning/ignoring/withdrawing from everything or struggling to work backwards from a horribly broken distorted idea of what "normal" is to try and understand the terms of reference most other people use and work within them as part of recovering. Is recovery a process of gradual improvement or an end result (ie. a "full recovery") to work towards though? I don't know. All I know is that I'm sad about the state that each person's abuse, sexual and otherwise, has left them in. And angry with the abusers for having done it.

_________________________
If it's a choice between laughing or crying, I'd rather laugh.

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#384195 - 02/02/12 11:29 PM Re: Human Touch & Recovery from CSA [Re: petercorbett]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1352
Loc: New York
Peace,Rainbows & Healing


Edited by lapchinj (03/16/13 11:40 PM)
_________________________
Stick around, It will get better....

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#384205 - 02/03/12 02:59 AM Re: Human Touch & Recovery from CSA [Re: ShortedDiode]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
ShortedDiode,

Thank you. You're user ID is very appropriate for the forum. My mum gave me hugs and so forth but they did nothing due to her believing my sperm donor's happiness was paramount, the CSA and my sperm donor's abuse. I literally hated her hugs. Still do. She was even the religious type. If god wonders why I hate christianity, look no further than that bitch and his sicko churches they went to that never said one damn word. Loving god my ass! She was a good little enabler to my sperm donor. Co-dependent as hell too.

It literally sets off a fuse in my head when I remember all the help those sicko churches offered my sperm donor knowing what he was doing and never thought to help me one damn bit. F god!!!!!!!!!

My mother lived the perfect childhood so she knew better. I really mean the perfect childhood. She has no excuse for her behaviour in allowing my sperm donor's actions and her joining in on occasion. No excuses whatsoever. She claimed he abused her which is somewhat true (never saw her abused physically though--she made those excuses when my CSA came out--she didn't believe it). Fuck her.

Her parents were loaded and would have done anything for her. Anything. They hated my sperm donor so she literally has no excuses. I bet they would have done anything to get her away for him. Her parents were great people. Saw them maybe a few times over my childhood. My sperm donor's own mother called him a monster. His family was as worthless as he was.

Sorry you were bullied. I was too. Hated school because of it.

Your life sucks like mine. I'm very sorry.

CSA and child abuse pisses me off.

Children did not ask to be born. Parents don't get medals for giving them a good childhood either. It's their fucking job when they have them. That's it. No excuses for abuse including CSA.

As far as pedos, life in prison. General population. Male or female offenders. No exceptions. No, I don't care how bad prison is for pedos. They deserve it.



Edited by phoenix321 (02/03/12 03:02 AM)
_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

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#384220 - 02/03/12 10:24 AM Re: Human Touch & Recovery from CSA [Re: phoenix321]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1352
Loc: New York
Peace,Rainbows & Healing


Edited by lapchinj (03/16/13 11:40 PM)
_________________________
Stick around, It will get better....

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#384234 - 02/03/12 01:46 PM Re: Human Touch & Recovery from CSA [Re: lapchinj]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
Originally Posted By: lapchinj
Originally Posted By: phoenix321
Puffer, sorry.

Luckily I grew up with all kinds of different races, origins, religions, etc. so I don't have such thoughts that some races are better than others. Didn't really hear racism and bigotry from anyone except in the south.
Hey Phoenix,

I don't think that puffer meant it that way. I'm 60 and I think he's around 10 years older than me. We grew up in different times. Him down south and me here in NY. I remember going to Florida with my parents and stopping in Georgia for gas and a shit for me. Problem was that the "white" bathroom was occupied and my father said that I could use the "colored" bathroom. The said no hinting it was contaminated for us white people. I had to squat in the wood behind the station. I asked my father about that but he had no words that could explain that attitude.

These were the times in the south in the late 50's. It was much worse 10 years earlier. Puffer was trying to point out how important that discussion is and that he was helped by the same people that were reviled down south in his times. He felt very close with her, which was taboo in those days. I think this is the message he was trying to get across.


Jeff,

I knew what Puffer was saying. What a nice surrogate mom he had. Military brat myself and we lived with all races on base. All that didn't matter to us kids. I'm 40. When we got to the south, I never had heard such vile hate. They may have done away with white only this and that but the hate was still there. It seemed 99% of the white people used the N word. Texas hated Black people and Mexicans. My sperm donor was a racist. I didn't get it. Asian men and women were accepted on bases but hated a lot in the south as well. Afraid to say the worst racists I saw in the south were the really low class white people and the people proud of Dixie. Other than total ignorance and fear, racism makes no sense to me. They really hate gays and lesbians too. It amazes me a bunch of them professed Jesus and hate Blacks, Asians, Mexicans, etc.

Originally Posted By: lapchinj
It just goes to show you there will always be sick people. I got this chilling message from your last post about your mother's "sperm donor". This hit me to the core, I can actually feel the rage and hurt in you. I know it's kinda sick to say but I feel a lot luckier than you in that my parents are only guilty of neglect. I used to be left at home during the school year while my mother spent the winter in Florida and my father went down weekends. She used to beat me but I was around 4'9" at 12 years old and I stood my ground while she hit me with my father's buckle belt. I would not give her the satisfaction that she hurt me.


I'm so sorry, Jeff. ((((Jeff)))) I don't see neglect any different to be honest. If parents don't do what they are supposed to, it's neglect even if they are there. It's all bad and affects everyone differently.

Yeah, I got mad thinking about it. I really don't think anger goes away. It may get less and less but never really leaves anyone when how a person is reminds them off it. When you've been empty and lonely your whole life and missed just about everything, how do you not get mad? Forgiveness doesn't get rid of the anger in my experience. Some will say, you never forgived in the first place if your angry. I've noticed people that say that rarely go through anything.

Most are religious that say little things like that piss me off about forgiveness (and other things). Nothing against religious people at all. They bought a line of well-thought crap like I did at one time. 99% of their leaders I have no use for. The RC I have no use for period. Ex-catholic here.

Originally Posted By: lapchinj
That's where our paths part in a way. Because of that I found a surrogate father that was my gymnastics coach in a gymnastics school out on Long Island, NY. I loved gymnastics and I loved him. The only problem is that we had sex together which I liked. Yes weird I understand. But he was so kind to me. I never had that from my parents. I could never have dreamed of having a better father than him. The only kink in that shiny armor is that while I think he really cared about me he also pimped me in different ways for 5 years starting when I was 13.

In cases like yours I agree with life in prison in the general population and no chance of the death penalty. I do have a problem though with my surrogate father that I don't wish him no harm or ill will. I don't know if he's living or not. Yes I had a bad drug habit by the time I went into the USAF at 18, I just got out of high school and pissed college all because of my life style during those years. But feeling the way I do today I would never testify against him. No matter how sick this all sounds I was finally a person, wanted and loved instead of just an accident that my parents needed to join all their social circles.


The confusion you have about your perp is exactly why they deserve life in prison. Pimping you out on top of it makes me very sad. I'm so sorry. There are no words to say other than I'm sorry. frown Martin was saying something very similar as far as the confusion over his pedo rapist.

I realize there have been some societies that had sex with kids. Spartans for one. They weren't really kids though. They were trained to be adults at a very young age to be warriors and tough as can be. Even the women were trained to be killers. It was survival. It was a practice that went on with all of them. It wasn't like our society. We don't train kids to be adults (other than working them to death until it was made illegal--unions won that). The Greeks did it too.

I'd say pedos that raped kids 12-under it's life. 12-15 years old, it's 10-15 years. No exceptions. Male or female pedos. We need to make it a serious crime to stop this epidemic. Pedos that pimps any age gets life.

Originally Posted By: lapchinj
I think I said enough. I would love to hear your take of what I just said though. I am glad that I don't have to put up with the anger that comes through in your post. I would hate to have to live with that on top of my past also.

Peace.
Jeff


You're right, people that don't have anger over it are lucky. I'm mad about what it cost me. That's why I get angry. It cost me everything. I don't see how you ever make peace with that. I can't. Thank you for the reply. It means a lot. Lots of hugs to you. Peace.

_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

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