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#383927 - 01/31/12 12:06 PM SSA or Gay...
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1307
OK - let me get this straight (no pun intended)...

SSA is Same Sex Attraction, is often unwanted and experienced by straight guys.

GAY is same sex attraction, is often wanted and experienced by gay guys.

So when I was being molested and I sort of learned to enjoy the stimulation, that was just SSA. Then when I finally launched out on my own and wanted to date girls but instead found myself in bed with guys, that was SSA because I really didn't want to be gay but I felt compelled to have older guys enjoy me - sort of like acting out my abuse. But because I was SSA, they were unaware they were scr*wing a straight boy.

And when I finally decided to stop wasting my emotional energy denying the strong SSA urges and instead decided to embrace them and concentrate on other things in my life, at that point I became gay - by choice, right?

But being gay was a choice all along, and if I had the will power, I could have just been straight with SSA instead.

And if I still find girls attractive but have embraced my SSA, then that means I am gay with OSA (opposite sex attraction)? And if I act on that attraction but remain true to my gay identity, then I stay "gay", but if I don't, then I become straight with SSA again?

_________________________



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#383929 - 01/31/12 12:24 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Chase Eric]
Castle Offline


Registered: 10/03/09
Posts: 727
Loc: NJ
Ill share just a little before it gets crazy in here, and it will.

I met a guy last year at an event...he didnt care if it was a man or woman for his next relationship...what he did know was that he wanted a genuine relationship with a connection and intamacy.

The issues you ask and bring to the table aredeeply complicated...you figure it out, lots of guys would be very thankful.

Sex and intamacy were complexly fucked and rewired in our brains.

_________________________

My posts can self destruct at any time..read them while you can.

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#383930 - 01/31/12 12:32 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Chase Eric]
Avery46 Offline


Registered: 09/23/10
Posts: 1243
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Chase Eric
So when I was being molested and I sort of learned to enjoy the stimulation, that was just SSA. Then when I finally launched out on my own and wanted to date girls but instead found myself in bed with guys, that was SSA because I really didn't want to be gay but I felt compelled to have older guys enjoy me - sort of like acting out my abuse. But because I was SSA, they were unaware they were scr*wing a straight boy....


Chase Eric,

The above statement really struck a chord in me. The touch/stimulation we experienced as a child was the key moment I believe. The stimulation we had was a reaction to being touched. The reaction was ok. You (we) are not at fault for reacting.

What you wrote is wonderfully clear and precise. Thank you.

Peace,
Avery

_________________________
aka DJsport

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#383941 - 01/31/12 01:45 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Avery46]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
I think it might get crazy in here, too. This thread comes up repeatedly, its a REAL ISSUE, but often there are those who want to end this discussion out of their own discomfort with asking the questions that each of us has to answer, with help, but ultimately on his own.

Chase Eric, I give you credit for putting your questions and thoughts out there so clearly for others to see and relate to.

_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#383946 - 01/31/12 02:16 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Chase Eric]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: Chase Eric
...when I was being molested and I sort of learned to enjoy the stimulation, that was just SSA. ....


eric, i don't see the molestation or stimulation related to same or opposite sex attraction at all. i understand being pleased by stimulation... what if that same pleasure simply came from an inanimate object. we'd call that i.o. attraction? i think that act, which was about unhealthy and mind-controlling games, could be separated from "relationship."

what i find amusing here too, and perhaps this really comes from just being tired and old on my approach to 50, but why is this being discussed? i'm not asking in an unkind way - for i think the answer to that question isn't so much about any of us individually, but is the result of "societal norms."

why isn't the goal about "finding a healthy relationship" that brings happiness and pleasure and is truly a mutual understanding of needs, desires, goals and support?

this, in my view, is possible with a guy or a girl, i.e. just another living, breathing human being. this isn't about gay or straight in my view. our mental health and happiness should be all that matters for the very short time we are alive -- and anything outside of that scope, i think, holds us back from celebrating those few short years called life.







_________________________
Jeff

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#383950 - 01/31/12 02:56 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: westchesterguy]
whome Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/07/11
Posts: 1734
Loc: Johannesburg South Africa
WCG hit the nail on the head.
Why discuss this subject all the time, for that matter why do we have all these labels for things. SSA GAY, BI, Hetro.

What the ultimate goal should be is AM I HAPPY, DO I ENJOY THIS RELATIONSHIP, AM I CONTENT.
Do we really need to squeeze everything into little boxes, is that when we will finally be happy, when all and sundry has a little stamp on his or her head, so we can fulfill our desire to understand everything?

HAPPINESS should be the only goal.
I desire for every victim to be in a happy, stable and loving relationship.

Simple right?

Heal well all
Martin

_________________________
Matrix Men South Africa
Survivors Supporting Each other
Matrix Men Blog

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#383963 - 01/31/12 04:07 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: whome]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
People discuss this for many valid reasons. They can be new, this can be a developing area of their healing, they can questioning it for the first time, it can be the biggest problem area of their life so it should be encouraged to be discussed openly with the ultimate goal being personal happiness but not avoiding it because it makes others uncomfortable.

Maybe there should be one separate area for this incredibly valid, important, vital and extremely integrated issue
especially for male CSA survivors. It doesn't come up to offend anyone and many people who do bring it up are shamed from discussing it.

Bring it out into the open and air it out. I did and my views have changed so much in the past 6 months. My mind is so much more open and that is because I discussed it, was affirmed, made mistakes, talked about it with a therapist, read other sources, read posts on here about what other men went through that I did not and worked on identification with others and eventually getting to the understanding that every one of us has a different experience and no one is an expert on anyone but himself ultimately.

The only reason to avoid this subject is --- actually, I couldn't come up with a reason because there isn't one.

I feel like telling people that they should just find a partner and be happy, well, IMO there is an element of saying "just get over it" and that's not meant to offend anyone because I wasn't offended by any posts. To get over it, one has to work through it.

This is a vital area of healing so of course this issue will come up again and again. Good for those who are willing to honestly say whatever their experience is.

I agree labels are constrictive but survivors need to work that out for themselves and they need a forum where they are free to do so. This should be that forum (added: I mean this entire board is the place to discuss it with the understanding that there is a specific forum for sexuality issues that might be the best fit for this but, IMO, its okay here, too.)



Edited by EdfromNYC (01/31/12 05:59 PM)
_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#383965 - 01/31/12 05:25 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: EdfromNYC]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: EdfromNYC
.... it can be the biggest problem area of their life so it should be encouraged to be discussed openly with the ultimate goal being personal happiness but not avoiding it because it makes others uncomfortable.


hi ed. why am i not hearing/reading "why" gay or same-sex attraction becomes the biggest problem area.

_________________________
Jeff

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#383966 - 01/31/12 05:52 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: westchesterguy]
EdfromNYC Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
I didn't say it is the biggest area but it can, at times, be the biggest area to be addressed just like anxiety, fear of rejection, shame, etc and many other areas common to abuse survivors.

Sexuality and orientation issues, at times, are the biggest and most important areas for a survivor to deal with. Every sex abuse book has at least a chapter on orientation/sexuality, there is a forum on here on sexuality, there is a sex Doc forum so this is not a taboo subject on here. It seeps into almost everything.



Edited by EdfromNYC (01/31/12 05:56 PM)
_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#383969 - 01/31/12 06:05 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: EdfromNYC]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: EdfromNYC
.. Sexuality and orientation issues, at times, are the biggest and most important areas for a survivor to deal with.


why?

_________________________
Jeff

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#383971 - 01/31/12 06:23 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: westchesterguy]
Anthony39 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 345
Loc: Montreal, Canada
Lets face it we are men, and sex is very important. We think about is a lot. It's part of being male. I think women probably think about it too but not as much as we do.
I think SSA and gay are labels, imprinting because of abuse? pavlovian responses? maybe. But at the end of the day call it what you want, its part of who we are now. We can repress it, exorcise it, ignore it, embrace it, it's a personal choice.
We would all agree that we are looking for a balance and some peace in our lives. I agree with Castle , it is a quest for intimacy , genuine feelings, and real relationships.
My personal opinion is that as survivors, we see the world still through the eyes of a child. The world is black and white for most of us. There are good people and bad people, gay and straight................... but the world is not black and white, it's a spectrum upon which we fall within one end or the other or somewhere in the middle. So we have attractions toward our own gender, does it matter that it is as a result of the abuse or not? the important thing is who we are as a person. Our ability to relate to others, to love , to trust, to laugh, to be confident about our place in the world.
I don't like the label of SSA , it leaves me unsettled, like something to hide behind.
Just my thoughts.

_________________________
Look up and not down; look forward and not back; look out and not in; and lend a hand.
E. E. Hale


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM213aMKTHg

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#383974 - 01/31/12 06:38 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Anthony39]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: Anthony39
....I don't like the label of SSA , it leaves me unsettled, like something to hide behind.


a label, and something to hide behind. so, :-) not to be repetitive, but "why" -- why would anyone hide at all given where we've been as survivors? hey guys, once you spilled the greatest secret we've ever been told to keep nothing else compares.

hiding from what exactly? have guys taken the idea that just because they think another guy is hot that it in itself is same-sex attraction? or are we talking about guys here thinking that "brad pitt is hot and i want to go all the way" because i just like sex? what?

_________________________
Jeff

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#383976 - 01/31/12 06:50 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: westchesterguy]
Anthony39 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 345
Loc: Montreal, Canada
Well, hiding behind the name itself. Looking at it as a pathological condition. Saying , i have SSA. Where does it go from there? is it a handicap to have that attraction? no absolutely not. We are adults, we don't have to act on it if we choose not too.

I still think that security in one's own sexual orientation is high on our priorities as men. Not because it's a big deal in itself, but because of the social standards we live in.

By the way everybody knows Brad Pitt is hot, not everyone will say it.

_________________________
Look up and not down; look forward and not back; look out and not in; and lend a hand.
E. E. Hale


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM213aMKTHg

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#383978 - 01/31/12 06:56 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Anthony39]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: Anthony39
.... because of the social standards we live in.


well thank you! if i had typed that early on, which i have 200 times before, i didn't think anyone else would have. smile

so, its society that is fuckedup not us. that is what i'm trying, feeble as it might be, to get guys here to see.

so what we think a guy is hot! women think women are hot and/or sexy, and they aren't "scared for life" and wondering if they are lesbian. they become friends for godsakes!

and guys avoid and run away.

to me -- that is the saddest part. we run away from a hot guy and in the process abandon an important part of ourselves, in my view.

_________________________
Jeff

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#383990 - 01/31/12 09:24 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: westchesterguy]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1181
Loc: New York
Peace,Rainbows & Healing


Edited by lapchinj (03/16/13 11:06 PM)
_________________________
Stick around, It will get better....

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#383993 - 01/31/12 09:51 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: lapchinj]
just me Offline


Registered: 05/27/09
Posts: 194
Wow! Chase Eric a question well put! I think your question drives so much of the unconscious discomfort about confronting so many of our issues.

Yes we humans need everything to fit into a neat little box...
Men are Like Waffles
Funny how when certain primates play, "same sex" we don't call them "Gay Monkeys"...They are still just monkeys.

We humans label things to our own detriment at times.

I still don't understand some of the labels we use. If i like potato chips....I am not labeled as a "Potato Chip Craver" BUT if I like women I am heterosexual...or if I like guys that makes me gay.....???

Then there is the human trait of seeing things as either "right" or "wrong"- Hence the need for many terms that color perspectives in a ways that make us humans more comfortable.

(I am intentionally not getting into religious values here since that discussion would undoubtedly cause the smoldering keg that is this thread to explode That discussion would bring into play the perspective of "Absolute right and wrong." )


Seriously.....I don't think I'm ever gonna figure it out!!!
Be well my brothers!

_________________________
My Story

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#383995 - 01/31/12 10:02 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: lapchinj]
Run4fun Offline


Registered: 12/17/11
Posts: 14
Loc: CA
Thanks to all for an insightful discussion. I'm new to these boards and have been amazed by how many of us struggle with these questions even as we take different paths in life.

For me it helps to differentiate between gay as a social identity, created in part through self-identification but also through social definition, and behaviors/attractions. The contradictions in the OP do come up -- someone might be straight in terms of social identity but have SSA or have sex with men. I believe some have started talking about straight men who have sex with men. But there are also gay men who have sex with women. The problem is that the social definition is always in the background, so that even if you think you are straight w/ SSA, someone else might think you are gay. That creates a tension between the self and society.

I appreciate the points made by those who say just have a loving, positive relationship and don't worry about labels. At the same time, a lot of people can't deny the social pressures or the questions that reappear as we move through different contexts and interactions.



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#383996 - 01/31/12 10:26 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Run4fun]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1181
Loc: New York
Peace,Rainbows & Healing


Edited by lapchinj (03/16/13 11:06 PM)
_________________________
Stick around, It will get better....

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#384002 - 01/31/12 10:44 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: just me]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1181
Loc: New York
Peace,Rainbows & Healing


Edited by lapchinj (03/16/13 11:06 PM)
_________________________
Stick around, It will get better....

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#384007 - 02/01/12 12:23 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Chase Eric]
whome Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/07/11
Posts: 1734
Loc: Johannesburg South Africa
Hi Guys

Hot topic again.

There is an interesting study done in NYC and the link is Straight men Gay Sex
Makes for some interesting reading.

Heal well
Martin

_________________________
Matrix Men South Africa
Survivors Supporting Each other
Matrix Men Blog

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#384011 - 02/01/12 01:04 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: westchesterguy]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1307
I just wanted to respond to this...

Originally Posted By: westchesterguy

eric, i don't see the molestation or stimulation related to same or opposite sex attraction at all. i understand being pleased by stimulation... what if that same pleasure simply came from an inanimate object. we'd call that i.o. attraction? i think that act, which was about unhealthy and mind-controlling games, could be separated from "relationship."

what i find amusing here too, and perhaps this really comes from just being tired and old on my approach to 50, but why is this being discussed? i'm not asking in an unkind way - for i think the answer to that question isn't so much about any of us individually, but is the result of "societal norms."

why isn't the goal about "finding a healthy relationship" that brings happiness and pleasure and is truly a mutual understanding of needs, desires, goals and support?

this, in my view, is possible with a guy or a girl, i.e. just another living, breathing human being. this isn't about gay or straight in my view. our mental health and happiness should be all that matters for the very short time we are alive -- and anything outside of that scope, i think, holds us back from celebrating those few short years called life.

Hi, Jeff. While I disagree with some of what you have to say, I do so in a friendly vein and only in the spirit of open and honest discussion smile ...

I see the molestation as having a LOT to do with "same or opposite sex attraction." Interpersonal sexual relations, whether they be love relationships, molestations or even forceable rape, are FAR too complex to compare with having sex with an inanimate object. And that ties directly in to your other statement that I could separate the "act" from the "relationship."

***tRiGGeRs***

It was ALL about the relationship. He was my "big brother" next door who one day decided to take it much further and deeper than I could ever hope to understand. I can't explain this without being detailed because it is within the details that my point is made - so please forgive me....

Inanimate object? When he entered me, it was not a dispassionate object that I felt, it was not even a disembodied organ - it was my "big brother" next door and the intimacy (not intimacy in the positive sense but rather in the absolute sense of the word) was overwhelming. I've never been able to view sex casually probably because of that - the fact that he just invited himself into me, shooting darts into my soul - those enormously intimate trespasses causing equally intimate and uncontrolled responses cannot possibly in my mind even come CLOSE to comparison with an inanimate object. Sorry and I really don't mean to be crude but instead of his organ in my behind, it might as well have been a puppeteer's hand in a puppet, completely owning and directing every reaction that puppet makes. That's what I was to him - a puppet that he would pick up off the toy chest every chance he had, put his hand inside and make me dance just for him. I would definitely agree, however, that perhaps a broomstick - as uncomfortable as it may have been - would have been better for my pysche in the long run...

I suppose sexual identity is like a mighty oak in an adult man, but it is a fragile seedling in a little boy. When I was molested at 12, my entire sexual identity was crippled. I was coerced to play a role I did not understand, feeling sexual responses that no one explained to me, keeping secrets I would die before revealling, and losing my carefree sense of just being a good boy. How many people outside these virtual walls understand what it means to be truly ashamed of oneself - AT TWELVE? I basically never became the tree I was meant to become. The damage wasn't so apparent then, but I stand in the forest of my peers now, and I still feel like a seedling.

I suppose the SSA/sexual orientation issue comes from not making sense of those natural sexual responses you will certainly have - or at least that I had. The confusion and shame do not negate the learned stimulations, and - in my case at least - I was lost in a dark cave of overwhelming carnal sensations and seductive adventure and heart-breaking guilt that I was in no way equipped to say no to, and certainly not equipped mentally to navigate alone.

I know you weren't asking in an unkind way - really. And my answer is in the same genuine spirit of friendly dialogue... "why is this being discussed?" I would imagine that the answer would be the same for this question: Why are we all here?

_________________________



Click my pic to see why I'm here

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#384013 - 02/01/12 01:38 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Chase Eric]
just me Offline


Registered: 05/27/09
Posts: 194
Eric.....wow!
((((((Eric))))))

_________________________
My Story

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#384014 - 02/01/12 02:03 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: just me]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1181
Loc: New York
Peace,Rainbows & Healing


Edited by lapchinj (03/16/13 11:07 PM)
_________________________
Stick around, It will get better....

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#384027 - 02/01/12 07:25 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Chase Eric]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: Chase Eric
...I suppose sexual identity is like a mighty oak in an adult man, but it is a fragile seedling in a little boy. When I was molested at 12, my entire sexual identity was crippled. I was coerced to play a role I did not understand, feeling sexual responses that no one explained to me, keeping secrets I would die before revealling, and losing my carefree sense of just being a good boy. ... Why are we all here?


ok, eric. now, to be clear: are there not then three things that must be defined besides the title of this topic?

1) molestation, described in your post above, which in itself comes with a spectrum of sexual experiences that are all in the past;

2) same-sex attraction, which is in the present and perhaps future, being "we think brad pitt is hot" but that is all there is to it, and;

3) gay, which is also present and perhaps past or future: we think brad pitt is hot AND we wouldn't be able to control ourselves if he jumped into bed with us.

if all true, i think it helps to understand what it is we are defining if we are to achieve a goal - and/or find resolve. if there are more - lets add them.

so far, i'm coming at it this way: no.1 (yup, got that,) no.2 (yup, normal), no.3 (yup, normal.)

so, why are we here?

what do you want and or need from this discussion?

now, as a lifetime gardener i loved your oak analogy smile

i think that miniature oaks, which are grown in the worst soil and in between rocks on a mountain top are just as mighty and beautiful --perhaps even more so-- than their peers grown in the lush, fertilized easy valley below.

yes, as a matter of size the valley oak is perfectly shaped and 60' tall and everyone knows its there. whereas the one surviving in rock thousands of feet above the valley is gnarled, wind-swept, likely has dead wood from lightening strikes... but it endures.

it is not the valley oak that photographers find -- they climb that mountain because they appreciate the tiny oak's survival. it is that dwarfed oak that hikers mark so they do not get lost. it is the solitary tree on that mountain top that young lovers meet under for a picnic to plan their life. that oak, that abused, forlorn, knobby, tangled tree serves a far greater purpose that cannot be replicated by all the mighty oaks in the valley below.

that is what i read from your posts, eric. strength. purpose. endurance.

_________________________
Jeff

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#384031 - 02/01/12 08:47 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: whome]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1181
Loc: New York
Peace,Rainbows & Healing


Edited by lapchinj (03/16/13 11:07 PM)
_________________________
Stick around, It will get better....

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#384037 - 02/01/12 11:04 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: lapchinj]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: lapchinj
....I don't understand why the survey was done aside from showing how many men do not use any protection.


i don't understand why no one asked "why" these guys have sex with other men. :-) especially when the guys are married.

all age groups?

were those who had sex with men, but considered themselves, hetero, sexually abused as boys?

but these bits and pieces of information trickle in and really offer no new information, in my humble view.

and speaking as a guy - who is interested in forming a partnership with another guy - it becomes clearer with each article and many of these threads on this board, why so few men are actually "available." especially in ny metro.

if all i wanted was sex - even minus risk of being caught and thus fired from my job for acting a natural way - that option sounds readily available.

and it is the easy way out.

_________________________
Jeff

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#384041 - 02/01/12 11:51 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Chase Eric]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
Quote:
"why is this being discussed?" I would imagine that the answer would be the same for this question: Why are we all here?


This is the crux of the issue and I'm glad you pinpointed it in such a friendly, kind and thoughtful manner.

There are posts in this thread that make statements like attraction is "absolutely not" an issue and I vehemently disagree.

Is a diabetic with an attraction to sweets vulnerable to self-harm? Left without the proper resources and assistance and alternative ways to satisfy himself, yes, his attraction is potentially threatening to his well-being. Is a CSA survivor with sexual attractions that he is not comfortable with vulnerable to continued self-harm? Yes without assistance and alternative ways to figure out that he might be in fact trying to improperly meet unmet needs and may in fact be perpetuating his own abuse, in effect, re-abusing himself repeatedly. SSA can just be one form of this area of sexual attraction that can cause questions and discomfort.

Looking at one's attraction, picking it apart, seeing what fits and what doesn't is part of the process. If one sees it as SSA and sees it as an abuse holdover and is uncomfortable with that, he has the freedom to dissect it and come to his own internal resolution whether that be gay, straight, no label, etc. but each man has the freedom to declare what his perspective is and to work it out.

_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#384044 - 02/01/12 12:00 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: westchesterguy]
whome Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/07/11
Posts: 1734
Loc: Johannesburg South Africa
I think the survey was done as a research study into the use of condoms but in my mind, even with that as a basis, it does open a big can of worms, well sort of.

Being on the inside, so to speak, we see the underlying causes and effects.

The big thing here is that groups that support survivors do not have the sort of money required to do surveys on such a grand scale.

Pity really, I think that it would make for interesting reading.

Martin

_________________________
Matrix Men South Africa
Survivors Supporting Each other
Matrix Men Blog

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#384047 - 02/01/12 12:30 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: EdfromNYC]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: EdfromNYC
...Is a CSA survivor with sexual attractions that he is not comfortable with vulnerable to continued self-harm? Yes without assistance and alternative ways to figure out that he might be in fact trying to improperly meet unmet needs and may in fact be perpetuating his own abuse, in effect, re-abusing himself repeatedly. SSA can just be one form of this area of sexual attraction that can cause questions and discomfort.


ed, what do you mean?
what is a sexual attraction? is that something different than seeing a guy and thinking - "sexy man" before you walk off to an appointment?

what is self-harm? how is seeing a sexy guy harmful to one personally?

what are unmet needs? if this is about same-sex only, then what needs do men require of each other?

and what are levels of discomfort? is that really just about a fear that after all is said and done, one is just preferring to be with a guy in a lifelong relationship instead of the one he has with a woman today?



_________________________
Jeff

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#384053 - 02/01/12 02:34 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: westchesterguy]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
WCG, you keep asking what Chase Eric wants from this dialogue. The question really is: what are you looking for? I understand what he might be looking for but I don't know what you are seeking here.

I feel comfortable with what I have written and my post speaks for itself. It seems to me that your questions are for you to answer for yourself to your own satisfaction.

_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#384058 - 02/01/12 03:09 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: EdfromNYC]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: EdfromNYC
WCG, you keep asking what Chase Eric wants...


ed, i have specifically been asking "you" questions. smile eric answered already.

i did so, "ask you," on the homophobia thread as well. and it is fine that we do not agree the answers were not clear nor do they speak for themselves, in my view.

so ed, i do not understand what you mean with "sexual attraction" versus just noticing a "sexy man" and i do not see how it translates into "self-harm" and what are "unmet needs" from men, and how any level of internal discomfort fits the bigger picture.

perhaps these are just extremely touchy questions to be asking here -- and if that is true say so. i can buy that. but can you?

meanwhile, my answers so far? i replied to eric above, which were: molestation bad (yup, got that,) same-sex attraction (yup, normal), attracted to same-sex for relationship (yup, normal.)

and in my humble view...simply because "no one has answered these fundamental questions" i've asked to define yet -- here is my conclusion so far:

every single man here and elsewhere who does not think same-sex attraction is just a "normal" quirk/part of being human and that same-sex relationships are different but so too "normal for those so inclined" are, in effect, both individually and collectively perpetuating the same childhood abuse into adulthood on guys such as myself who cannot practice "normal" behavior without losing our job. can replace the word job with other things too - family, child, legal rights, partner's social security.

for me though right here in your backyard ed, old liberal nyc, i'd be fired on the spot for even someone suggesting that i was gay. and not a damn thing i can do about it... except stay home, not "like" anything remotely gay on fb, never be seen with anyone who is gay in the city.

ed, do you have to hide? do you have to dummy-up at work about having a friend over on the weekend because dare you slip and say which film we watched? do you tell your friends - you cannot attend a birthday party in the city for fear of being seen with "fags"? that is my life bud and been doing it seven years.

so, i try and learn where this comes from inside other men...and what pleasure they get from torturing guys like me.

from there maybe it can be resolved.

_________________________
Jeff

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#384079 - 02/01/12 07:14 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: westchesterguy]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
Because we as men with SSA issues discuss this somehow threatens you, doesn't mean that we shouldn't discuss it even if it makes you uncomfortable. It doesn't mean that if we (or simply I) hold views differently from you that you are somehow wrong and we are right.

This claim of being hurt by men on here discussing this issue is used to shut this discussion down all the time. Trust me, there is an entire movement of men looking at this as SSA and they are not focusing on hurting other people or imposing their views on others unlike people who try to impose their views on others by prematurely claiming that male CSA survivors are

Quote:
both individually and collectively perpetuating the same childhood abuse into adulthood on guys such as myself


by having this view. You and others equate men on here simply raising this issue as being potentially abusive to you. I'm a survivor, too, and I don't have to think about your needs every time I post out of fear of hurting your sensitive feelings and you equating me with being abusive for having a view about MYSELF AND ONLY MYSELF, NOT YOU, NOT THE WORLD, NOT THE WHOLE OF HOMOSEXUALITY, JUST ME.

All I can say is we are both survivors and whatever peace I find in exploring my sexuality and my orientation has no effect on yours and your exploration doesn't take priority over mine where you stop me from writing about mine because you feel threatened just by the mere discussion.[b][/b]

This thread always gets sidetracked by trying to take care of the needs of someone who is offended by any discussion. I think of it as the thought police who come out to stop the discussion without any concern for other survivors who need space to explore this.

_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#384112 - 02/02/12 06:47 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: EdfromNYC]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: EdfromNYC
....You and others equate men on here simply raising this issue as being potentially abusive to you. I'm a survivor, too, and I don't have to think about your needs every time I post out of fear of hurting your sensitive feelings and you equating me with being abusive for having a view about MYSELF AND ONLY MYSELF, NOT YOU, NOT THE WORLD, NOT THE WHOLE OF HOMOSEXUALITY, JUST ME.


ed, i've been asking you to go for it.

explain.
enlighten us.
there are no emotions.
there is no fear.

"so ed, i do not understand what you mean with "sexual attraction" versus just noticing a "sexy man" and i do not see how it translates into "self-harm" and what are "unmet needs" from men, and how any level of internal discomfort fits the bigger picture."


_________________________
Jeff

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#384116 - 02/02/12 08:21 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: westchesterguy]
EdfromNYC Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
WCG: I'm done. I've had my say. There's nothing that I feel I need to or want to add. I know why I'm here. I'm here to get help and give help. I'm not here to debate, justify, defend or explain unless I feel it will help. I don't believe it will here nor do I believe help is actually being sought.

There are lots of places on the web to debate. To me, this forum is not the place. That's just me. I don't speak for anyone else.

This is not addressed to WCG so WCG please don't feel you need to reply to me writing about my feelings.

Its unfortunate, to me, that I have issues in this area that I would like to discuss more openly without having to defend or explain to some men who are somehow threatened by myself and others discussing perspectives that might be different from their perspective.

Also, what I may call SSA today (I'm not even claiming that I do, I just want anyone who wants to use that framework to be allowed space to do it), may change for me. I'm not attached to a framework and the more work I do, the more freedom I get to be myself just like I want for anyone else on here. I want freedom from the effects of my CSA and sexuality has been affected and if someone can't grasp that is an issue, I am truly perplexed by that and I truly don't get that lack of understanding.

I have real issues with my orientation/sexuality and its a shame, really a shame, that someone always comes into this thread to try to shut it down. Always. I will stress it is people who are trying to "protect" themselves at the expense of other survivors mental/emotional/spiritual health but often those people can't or wont' see the impact of their own actions/writings.

There are also those who have different perspectives than myself who like myself try to focus on the commonality of CSA and have the understanding that our sexuality/orientation is a big area and we all come at dealing with it from our own perspective and there is mutual respect. I've felt it on here and I am grateful to those members who've shared their experience while respecting mine; it has allowed for my mind to open and not feel bad for having my views and allowing them to be subject to change.




Edited by EdfromNYC (02/02/12 10:10 AM)
_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#384119 - 02/02/12 09:59 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: EdfromNYC]
lapchinj Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1181
Loc: New York
Peace,Rainbows & Healing


Edited by lapchinj (03/16/13 11:14 PM)
_________________________
Stick around, It will get better....

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#384120 - 02/02/12 10:14 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: lapchinj]
EdfromNYC Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
I have in common with you communication issues but I'm getting better and keeping the focus more on myself while trying to be mindful of others. I've learned that by writing more on here and reading with more of an open mind and NOT writing when I am in a reactionary mood.

I don't agree that it was getting to deep. For me, it was getting too confusing and off topic and not healing oriented.

You're one of the people who've helped me open my mind up and keep the focus on common issues.

_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#384121 - 02/02/12 10:48 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: lapchinj]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
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Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1307
Like Jeff just said, it's tough getting in the middle of something like this, but we all sit on the sidelines and watch. I wasn't going to say anything, but since I started this thing, I feel some obligation to at least try to get things back on track...

I am very hesitant to take sides in a personal dispute and I won't do that here. I've always thought that any perspectives or opinions we have (and we each have our own sense of right and wrong) should be carefully couched in a humble framework of "I don't know what's true for you, but for ME..." or "I know that you may see it differently, but the way *I* see it is..." The wonderful thing about humility is that it opens the mind of the person who practices it, and lowers the defenses of his opponent. But that's just my own perspective on it.

Wasn't it Dale Carnegie who said that arguments are a waste of time - that you never win them? If you lose your point, you've lost the argument. If you've made your point, you've lost something even more important - the good will of your opponent.

My two cats have it figured out perfectly. They tussle and wrestle and hiss and snarl - but despite the fact they are not declawed, they keep their talons sheathed the whole time and never bite hard. Then they curl up next to each other like it was no big deal.

There is much good that can come out of sparring and debating. We challenge ourselves in very similar fashion, working down through the anger and outrage in order to find deeper truths buried within ourselves. It can be the same with each other. Debate can be tremendously therapeutic here.

But I wonder if that "dinner" isn't best served with a HUGE heaping of respect, seasoned heavily with humility, and always ended by sharing a sweet offering of dessert.

_________________________



Click my pic to see why I'm here

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#384123 - 02/02/12 11:36 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: EdfromNYC]
whome Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/07/11
Posts: 1734
Loc: Johannesburg South Africa
Quote:
it was getting too confusing and off topic and not healing oriented.


Hit the nail on the head.

Why is it that there always has to be an argument rather than a discussion. The constant attacking is killing HEALING DEBATE ON MS.

Don't take things personally and Don't be stubborn and always say that you are right. Everyone's reality is different.
This is a general statement and not directed at any single person

PLEASE GENTS

Martin

_________________________
Matrix Men South Africa
Survivors Supporting Each other
Matrix Men Blog

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#384130 - 02/02/12 12:31 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: whome]
petercorbett Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/27/08
Posts: 2435
Loc: TEXAS
Hi, my fraternal brothers.

A reminder for us here. We come here to heal. We all come here to get help in our fears, confusion, self-worth, etc. We all are in the same boat, one way or another.

We should be sharing our compassion, understanding,love & hope for one another here.
We can disagree of course. We offer non "professional" help to one another. What might work for someone might not for another. We can pick & choose what advice & help that is of value to us as individuals.
I do not (at least) hope that someone would say things here to deliberately hurt someone.
This is a real issue. It is a very complex one.
Our road to recovery is a long & painful one.
We are here for one another. Please do it with the compassion, understanding, love & hope that each one of us deserves.

I have already come to terms with who and what I am. What I always was. It has taken me 60+ years to do it.

"I didn't know me until now."

Heal well my fraternal brothers, heal well.

"I will take that lost boys hand, and I will lead him from the depths of darkness, into the sunshine, forever into eternity." As he is me.

Pete..Irishmoose.

_________________________
Working Boys' Home 10-14 yrs old, grades 5-8. 1949-1953
____________________________________________________________
A very humble alumni of the WOR Dahlonega, GA.
May 15-17 2009, Alta, Sep. 2009. Sequoia, 2010.
Hope Springs, 2010.


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#384139 - 02/02/12 01:42 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: petercorbett]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1307
In the spirit of returning to topic, I'll spell out my own dilemma - maybe others can relate to this...

I really wonder about the use of the labeling and vernacular here. I'm not ascribing right or wrong - I'm genuinely curious. There is SSA, which seems to imply having gay feelings but not really BEING gay. And there's gay, which embraces the SSA as part of one's own identity.

For a long time I did not see myself as gay, but acknowledged these "feelings" that really troubled me. I learned to respond sexually at the behest of my abuser, learned to "enjoy" it. But I read things here and realize that a few years back I would have definitely been in the SSA camp. I was angry and ashamed at my abuse, angry and ashamed of my SSA. It was something to fight, not accept. Accepting it meant he won.

As it turned out- for ME at least, SSA was a phase I went through before acknowledging I was gay (or at least bi).

The implications are staggering. I may have well been gay before the abuse started. But there is always that question - what if my abuse made me gay???

I think that is the scariest thing about this whole journey for some of us. It was for me, because if the abuse DID make me gay, then it has effectively given god-like powers to my molester. Isn't my whole life - at least my entire sexual identity - then just a fabrication of the fantasies he made me act out with him?

I'm questioning everything at this point - even the conventional wisdom that seems to imply our sexual identities are predetermined and immutable. I'm not sure I buy that, and having gone through such an intense and prolonged period of sexual abuse gives me some credence. I may not be an expert or have the degree - but I have walked the path and that counts for something...

What gives me comfort is that even if I AM gay, in part or in whole, because I was conditioned by him and responded to his touch, I can acknowledge it. I can own it. And I can still enjoy my life and forget HIM. Otherwise I'm just gay and angry (SSA?) - and then my life is just a constant and perpetual response to him.

_________________________



Click my pic to see why I'm here

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#384151 - 02/02/12 03:35 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Chase Eric]
1lifenow Offline


Registered: 03/07/11
Posts: 398
Loc: west coast
Originally Posted By: Chase Eric
[size:20pt It was something to fight, not accept. Accepting it meant he won.



Wow that is really well spoken from the heart.

I have to agree about understanding that complex question, was the SSA just a re-enactment like my one T said, or was it just me and what I was into, like i thought.

One of my wife's T's said even if i am only 1% gay she would advise against that choice as a lifestyle, cuz in her experience, that world is fraught with unhappiness. Wow, how was I supposed to process that. I know, more guilt and shame.

It was one of my T's who helped me see that when i fantasized about a guy it was not distressful, it was something I wanted, and in fact I wanted more. So the T helped me see that just fixating on a penis regardless of who it was attached to, just to see if i could do the deed he wanted me to , well that was recreating my abuse. I did that for my perp for years, I was only entitled to a release once he was satisfied. He would come and I would go. It was never about my needs , wants or desires, mostly no words spoken. It was mechanical, devoid of anything other than the orgasm.

But then the first time a guy made love to me, holding, touching, kissing and my needs were just as important as his. A long slow delibetate time of caring and affecting. Then the after glow of connection on a human level as myself for the first time. That is not SSA and not re-creating the abuse, that's just gay.

So my T helped me really look at who I fantasized about, honestly, he said that although some can have attraction to both, there almost always is a preference. Although I find a women attractive, there is no real visceral deep butterflies I get with a man. That is same SSA. But when I want to wake up in a mans arms. Well that is gay. So accepting that means he has not won, I have.

Again this is just my experience.

_________________________
The need for love lies at the very foundation of human existence. Dalai Lama

WoR Barrie 2011

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#384157 - 02/02/12 05:47 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: 1lifenow]
1islandboy Online   content
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 858
Loc: washington
We now return you to our original programming:


Chase Eric...It's like soil...can you dig it...???

No doubt this topic is interesting brain candy...

I try to cast off conventional wisdom and societals so called factual opinons...

It might be a mixed blessing...that I am both a csa survivor and have two immediate relatives that are both gay...

Now that I am lucky enough to have that figured out...(by default)...I wonder the difference between feminization and emasculinization.

Sexual identity seems to have a reversal effect on sexual orientation...making my straight sides gay and my gay sides straight.

For some reason....I really identify with the hetero emotional-homo sexual designation...

I do feel compelled to add...that I have never made myself emotionally available to someone of the same sex...(trust issues).

I personally feel that acceptance...(reguardless of how I got there)...is the key to taking my power back and the path to feeling comfortable in my own skin...

Thank You for the topic...


The Seeker (Rush)

island




_________________________
Rise above the storm and you will find the sunshine ~ M.F. Fernandez

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#384158 - 02/02/12 05:58 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: EdfromNYC]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: EdfromNYC
....I will stress it is people who are trying to "protect" themselves at the expense of other survivors mental/emotional/spiritual health but often those people can't or wont' see the impact of their own actions/writings.


"so ed, i do not understand what you mean with "sexual attraction" versus just noticing a "sexy man" and i do not see how it translates into "self-harm" and what are "unmet needs" from men, and how any level of internal discomfort fits the bigger picture."

the reason this is not a debate -- can be explained with sample answers to those very simple questions that i've asked three times.

"jeff, to me sexual attraction means (fill in the blank) whereas a sexy man means (fill in the blank.)"

and "jeff, self-harm happens in the following way...(fill in the blank.)" and "unmet needs from men are as follows...." etc., which leads to "how this discomfort fits the bigger picture."

and my response to those answers - very likely would be, "ah ha, now i understand where 'one' is coming from."

so, here we are on page 5.

still no idea what the issues are as defined by the folks who claim to have the issue coupled with a greater issue of my probing deeper into the topic that ails so many, theoretically.

there is no debate.

this is not a thread discussing gay marriage.

now, ed stated: "...I have real issues with my orientation/sexuality and its a shame, really a shame, that someone always comes into this thread to try to shut it down."

well, again, what are they?

through specific answers, with details, it is my view, that very likely those with such concerns could be enlightened.

otherwise, sidestepping answering such basic questions results in exactly the quote i pulled at the top of this post.

_________________________
Jeff

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#384198 - 02/03/12 12:16 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Chase Eric]
lapchinj Offline
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Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1181
Loc: New York
Peace,Rainbows & Healing


Edited by lapchinj (03/16/13 11:15 PM)
_________________________
Stick around, It will get better....

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#384199 - 02/03/12 12:32 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: 1lifenow]
lapchinj Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1181
Loc: New York
Peace,Rainbows & Healing


Edited by lapchinj (03/16/13 11:15 PM)
_________________________
Stick around, It will get better....

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#384228 - 02/03/12 12:33 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: lapchinj]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1307
Originally Posted By: lapchinj
I hear the question you ask eric but unfortunately I don't have an answer for you. I think that my orientation is obvious so it gives me more time to think about my other issues. I guess the only thing I can offer is how did you feel before your abuse happened?

I think the best way to describe myself before the abuse was bisexual. The crushes and attractions were 50/50 between boys and girls. I still don't know if that was within the realm of "normal" if I can even use that word.

The abuse carried a LOT of dynamics, not the least of which was not wanting to fill my abusers shoes, and whenever I made any assertive sexual moves with a girl, I felt that way and it repulsed me and I'd have to stop. I became an eternal wimp. I was a walking cauldron of crushes and attractions that I kept totally to myself because releasing those feelings carried the possibility all my secrets would pour out as well. And so I dutifully returned to my molester night after night for the only release I knew.

Any sexual enjoyment I had was a secret. Every orgasm was followed with regret. I read somewhere that healthy sexual relationships enhance the person's well-being and sense of self. I went through years of intense sexual relationship since I was 12 and NEVER EVER ONCE had an afterglow of "Wow, that was awesome smile "

I wasn't a child - I was an old Yiddish man in size 7 Stride Rite shoes. I was an old man with the weight of the heaven's judgement over me. And as old as I felt, there was a paradoxical opposite with my body. I always looked younger than my years - when I was twelve I could pass for 9 or 10. I looked like 15 or 16 when I was 20. I don't think that was a fluke of nature either. I sometimes wonder if the abuse stunted me like that.

_________________________



Click my pic to see why I'm here

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#384232 - 02/03/12 12:52 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Chase Eric]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: Chase Eric
....I went through years of intense sexual relationship since I was 12 and NEVER EVER ONCE had an afterglow of "Wow, that was awesome smile "


were you in love, eric? were these relationships truly mutual, without games and baggage, or was it just about intense sexual relations?

_________________________
Jeff

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#384237 - 02/03/12 01:52 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: westchesterguy]
Daniel_forgotten Offline


Registered: 02/07/09
Posts: 479
this is exactly my situation! older dudes attract some of my alters but when stuff happens i hate myself. i feel repulsed by them most of the time and lot of alters dont want to be with any man again, ever. i like young and older women, but when we get intimate i feel like i'm abusing them


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#384239 - 02/03/12 01:54 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Chase Eric]
lapchinj Offline
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Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1181
Loc: New York
Peace,Rainbows & Healing


Edited by lapchinj (03/16/13 11:15 PM)
_________________________
Stick around, It will get better....

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#384240 - 02/03/12 02:04 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: westchesterguy]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1307
I'm not sure how to answer these...

Originally Posted By: westchesterguy
were you in love, eric? were these relationships truly mutual, without games and baggage, or was it just about intense sexual relations?

I actually posted a response and but removed it - thinking it was getting to be too much about me. This should be about everyone.

I invite you to read my intro if you want answers in particular about me (click my name in the sig below). In the meantime I'll share personally here but will try to keep it in the spirit of exploring the topic of SSA vs Gay.

_________________________



Click my pic to see why I'm here

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#384243 - 02/03/12 03:33 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Chase Eric]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: Chase Eric
....I'm not sure how to answer these...


i, for one, felt as though you did. so, after reading the response - have you ever had a truly mutual, loving, "healthy!" adult relationship with a guy?

you know, a real, genuine guy you didn't hate, someone who didn't have this baggage, someone who respected you, was tender with you, supported your goals, made your heart pound (positively and excitedly) just thinking about him and he the same in thinking of you, etc., etc.

if a girl did, that's fine too, i just ask because i haven't read you state this.

now, i ask as a separate question from the above, not because it is contingent, but i think it runs parallel -- eric, just for the sake of argument you can wave a magic wand -- and that "really great person" who you will spend the rest of your life with appears in your world next week.... would that person's gender fundamentally matter to you?

if it matters, and without a doubt must be a woman -- isn't that really the defining moment in all of this regardless of which questions remain?

if gender doesn't matter, isn't that just as important to know when defining or understanding one's sexuality in general in pursuit of relationships?

or perhaps something else entirely even? those were just two examples i thought of based upon your post.

_________________________
Jeff

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#384279 - 02/04/12 01:10 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: westchesterguy]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1307
If I read you correctly, you are saying that gender preference should not be the issue - person preference should be. And whether that person is same or opposite sex is not a preference that one should force on oneself.

If so, it does go to the heart of the SSA/Gay thing. But sexuality is like food - there are things I can't stomach but another person loves. And if you were to ask me why I hate that food, my answer would still be no more sophisticated than a child's: "I don't know. I just do." Because there is no answer, really.

I hate cheese. Period. If you put a piece of Limburgher on my plate I would not eat it. American? Nope. Cheddar? Not happening at all. I just absolutely hate cheese and will never ever EVER take a bite. Some people I hang out with have a tough time accepting that - especially the cheese lovers out there. But my taste buds are as immutable as my sexuality, and although I consider myself an open-minded person, some preferences are far too limbic for me to control even if I wanted to.

When our sexuality is messed with just as the seedling germinates, I think a lot of us here have become lost. So many of us are on a genuine heart-felt search to try to understand our sexual identity - who we are, who we would have been, and if we are what we are because of the abuse.

We're on our hands and knees, just trying to pick up the pieces of our broken lives, maybe get a hint of who we were before we became so broken. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less.

Am I really gay? Am I convinced I'm really straight but can't seem to reconcile my same sex feelings with that? Do I hate myself that I MAY be gay, because either I hate homosexuality for cultural or religious reasons, or because being "gay" means my molester "won"? These are all very fragile and delicate questions and nobody here can answer them except ourselves.

_________________________



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#384299 - 02/04/12 07:07 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Chase Eric]
westchesterguy Offline
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Originally Posted By: Chase Eric
...Am I convinced I'm really straight but can't seem to reconcile my same sex feelings with that?...


so glad the discussion has reached this point. i see a lot of nuances, which i believe are important to consider.

when i have a problem to solve and i ask myself a question...sometimes i just cannot find the answer. so, i "change the question" and approach the same problem from another angle. nuance.

on this very subject i too asked "am i gay" and i could not answer -- so years ago i changed the question to "what is important to me, for me, in love, life and pursuit of a relationship?" i did not micromanage details - i crossed them off the list knowing i'd revisit them if need be.

with the new question - the answers poured in. and dudes - its evolved since. i'd say rather clearly in the early 1990s i strongly felt marriage to a woman was in the cards -- IF it happened along. but 12 years ago when i did fall in love with a guy it is the path i desire today as well.

here is a nuance from eric's post, in my view: "...same or opposite sex is not a preference that one should force on oneself."

yes, i am suggesting that if gender becomes the hangup, then why is the issue not turned around to focus instead on "healthy" human desire (not preference)?

complicated nuance: eric wrote, "...I think a lot of us here have become lost. So many of us are on a genuine heart-felt search to try to understand our sexual identity - who we are, who we would have been, and if we are what we are because of the abuse."

i totally agree and sympathize. now, correct me if i'm wrong but the research i'm aware of clearly states being raped/abused as a boy does not make one gay. did this research change and i'm not aware?

nonetheless, at what stage does one decide "whoever i would have been sans abuse no longer matters because life is extremely short, and this is not a topic i care to still be battling when i take that final breath....alone in a hospital bed..." ?

eric wrote: ".....maybe get a hint of who we were before we became so broken. That's all...."

in my view, an important nuance: to be extremely clear this is not "get over it" -- but again i ask about repurposing the goal. how would that "hint" change your life right now? would it wipe out your adult past, or justify it, would it really solve something?

at which point do we decide that search for what "might have been" is now holding me back from living today and from seeking what will be?

if i've read both directly and a little indirectly from your post -- there are delicate, unresolved issues about being in or desiring a same-sex relationship and hating oneself for it, especially given cultural and religious teachings.

does resolving all of those "details" --i'll call them-- not overburden the primary issue? is it not a better first step to be asking "who might bring me some healthy happiness for what little time remains in my life?" rather than try to answer: "am i gay, and do i like same-sex sex, and what does jewish or christian teaching say about it, and who in my town will snicker at me...." etc. etc.

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#384426 - 02/05/12 07:03 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Chase Eric]
EdfromNYC Offline
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I took a couple of days away from the board. I go to group and individual, too, and it got to be a bit much but I'm glad the thread carried on. I've read great things in here.

Its funny that an SSA/gay thread has a majority of members who've come to accept that they are gay and not a majority of members who look at SSA as a possible prism. Nothing wrong with it, just an observation.

I know a lot about the SSA prism and I see commonalities with many of the issues being discussed. I don't write that to encourage anyone to see things any other way - just an observation.

Taking a couple of days off has allowed me to come to a good conclusion (at least for me) - why can't SSA and gay both exist? Maybe I've been stuck in thinking that it is either/or but I don't think so. I don't think that one is more important than the other nor is one right and the other wrong. Its up to the individual to figure out for himself which framework he identifies with and which will give him the most internal peace. Each way takes its own form of personal work with some overlapping but neither outcome makes the individual better or worse than had he pursued the other avenue.

I guess that's what I was getting at in a thread like this. We need to be able to discuss this freely without feeling like it needs to be defended or that we have to look over our shoulders awaiting attack. I identify with so much of what was written over the last couple of days especially because it was written from the personal experience of other men who've grappled with the same issues and have some of the same unanswered questions that I do.

I am starting to wonder if some questions will never be answered (for myself) and I have to start to learn to live without knowing answers and just be okay with that and seek a good life regardless. I've spent a lot of time and energy on these questions in the past. There is a difference now, however: I am not seeking answers in isolation but listening to other mens' experiences, hopefully with more and more of an open mind.

_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#384436 - 02/05/12 09:41 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: EdfromNYC]
lapchinj Offline
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Edited by lapchinj (03/16/13 11:16 PM)
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#384441 - 02/05/12 10:07 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: lapchinj]
EdfromNYC Offline
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Quote:
This can be argued in another post.


First, I don't think we have to "argue". Second, there are many men who consider themselves SSA-oriented and had similar childhood experiences like you and I was one of them. The roots of the SSA (from my limited perspective and ability to express myself) led boys to attach to other men sexually when it is really other needs that aren't met. Its not accurate to say that SSA accuses others of being sick. It is accurate to say that those who are pursuing looking at their SSA-orientation (and that's not to say 100% SSA - it could just be partial SSA but enough to cause one internal discomfort) are simply pursuing that because that feels internally and intuitively correct to them but that doesn't mean that there is some group of "they" that come to the same conclusion on SSA and gay. There is no grand "they" out there.

In today's society, anyone pursuing healing SSA feelings could be similarly "pushed" like you were into a lifestyle that doesn't agree with their internal sense of self. There is a lot of open hostility toward those who are simply open to looking at their orientation issues through the SSA prism and they are encouraged to see themselves as in denial and full of self-hate, etc. There's societal pressure, that's all.

I admire how you write about your experience and your honesty and generally your experience. I value your voice and what you write doesn't sound simple just like I don't believe my sexuality isn't simple. I don't want to paint it as such. It is hard to figure out what can change, what can't, what to work on, what to accept is as it is, what to focus on, etc. I didn't have much of a chance to figure out for myself what I really liked once an adult man touched me at the loneliest, most vulnerable time in my life when I was a boy and it felt good and I needed to feel good. It confused the fuck out of me and I am letting go of stuff and habits but its very difficult. I am also investigating my relationships prior to my abuse and looking at my feelings now toward men, women and then towards girls and boys.

God is it complicated.



Edited by EdfromNYC (02/05/12 10:38 AM)
_________________________
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Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
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#384457 - 02/05/12 02:45 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: EdfromNYC]
Chase Eric Offline
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It is such a tough journey working through SSA and really trying to find what the real truth behind it is. And I agree, Ed, about the "prism". Same sex attraction carries huge social and personal implications and it's very difficult to separate them out into their components.

The following pertains just to me - sharing my OWN experiences and attitudes - and in no way ascribes any judgements on anyone whose path or conclusions may be different...

There is a strong social current in America to conform. I'm not sure about other countries, but here in America it seems you are either going to fly under the radar and conform, or not conform and thus be unavoidably "noticed".

To me, SSA seemed to threaten my ability to be the former. I fought and fought - keeping my SSA submerged and secret - until time gradually revealed to me the tally of that denial. For me, the decision to accept my SSA was when I realized two things:

(1) I was probably never going to escape the SSA feelings I had (God knows I have gone to near extremes to do so).

(2) I was living my life trying to be what others expected me to be - my perception of what they expected - and as it turns out, they really never cared. What a waste of misdirected energy...

My personality has not changed - I'm not flamboyant or otherwise wear my sexuality on my sleeve. But being who I am - at long last - has resulted in a strange paradox. I have many more friends - and of greater quality and depth than before (more than half are NOT gay). Those I feared might avoid me have instead proven true to me - a wonderful revelation in itself. And I have mellowed quite a bit because I am more relaxed in my own skin - which just perpetuates the friendships all the more.

The great truth I have discovered is this: no one really cares about who I am. Most people are more focused on who they themselves are. My only regret is that I didn't get to this realization sooner.

_________________________



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#384463 - 02/05/12 03:25 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Chase Eric]
Chase Eric Offline
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One other thought on this topic...

My big fear of SSA and the entire crap around it is that it distracts from the real issue of pedophilia. When I see this crap with Penn State and the Catholic church and so many other situations in which adults go to extremes to not deal with the issues - certianly not as openly as those involving male-on-female victims, it makes me wonder. The entire shroud of gay taboo serves ultimately to perpetuate male CSA.

I still wonder about the many, many grown-up male CSA victims that walk quietly amongst us, perhaps feeling as complicit as some of us do with our own rapes. Maybe they are dealing with SSA, seeing that as the ugly and unwanted after-effects of their abuse. Maybe that makes them not want to see it in anyone else - to avoid the triggers, thus perpetuating the secrets...

Someone in another thread revealed a study in which 79% of abused kids make efforts to keep the secret from others. That says a LOT.

I have often wondered if Paterno himself may have been a victim. That could explain much about why he just did what he had to do and turned away....

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#384466 - 02/05/12 04:21 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Chase Eric]
EdfromNYC Offline
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Quote:
But being who I am - at long last - has resulted in a strange paradox. I have many more friends - and of greater quality and depth than before (more than half are NOT gay).


The same goes for me and many of my friends are gay. It doesn't matter to me what someone self-identifies as. The more comfortable I am with myself and my sexuality, the more I can be present with others like you said.

I can say that I don't want an intimate, sexual relationship with another man. When I am relating out of my healthy adult "head", that is the truth. When I am relating out of my boy-with-unmet-needs "head", the SSA has power over me. I've made that distinguishment for myself. Is that a 100% black/white line? That's where I don't know if I will ever be on one side or the other and whether I just need to learn to live with feelings that are due to imprinting or whatever and occasionally recur especially when I need comforting or I am lonely.

For me, no adult man can meet those needs through sex which is what I thought/hoped/tricked myself into thinking happened when I was 13. Its easy to write this stuff out but its not been easy to accept/get over/move on from.

_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#384467 - 02/05/12 04:30 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Chase Eric]
EdfromNYC Offline
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I am confused by this post about your fears surrounding SSA but I respect it because I've had a lot of fears in the gay/SSA area myself. Fears of being denied my point of view, fears that I am going down a pointless path, fears of being rejected by friends for pursuing this, fears that I'd have to completely change who I am...

I read much of the SSA literature and postings and I have to say those men feel the same about CSA and there are many CSA survivors in the SSA arena. Polls have been taken and many are CSA survivors so I'm not sure of your concern.

_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#384469 - 02/05/12 05:10 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: EdfromNYC]
Chase Eric Offline
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In a nutshell, my concern is that CSA may be so widespread among those in positions to do something about it that perhaps it is too triggering for them to deal with. But that's only a thought and I have nothing to back it up in terms of statistics or real world knowledge.

But with "gay" still being so taboo among the older crowd especially and all the unwanted SSA - it makes me wonder.

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#384489 - 02/05/12 08:43 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Chase Eric]
lapchinj Offline
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Edited by lapchinj (03/16/13 11:16 PM)
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#384557 - 02/06/12 08:33 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Chase Eric]
westchesterguy Offline
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Originally Posted By: Chase Eric
.... "gay" still being so taboo...


agree.

it is very interesting to me when a so-called ultra conservative official/politician or a religious leader changes his mind and favors "gay marriage" -- and there are many out there.

the common thread often is a child or someone very close to them is gay and thus that leader changes his mind.

how does one bottle up that change of heart to convince others?

_________________________
Jeff

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#384563 - 02/06/12 10:08 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: westchesterguy]
Anthony39 Offline
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I think it's a very complex topic with many facets. Eric touched on something there. There are probably a lot of guys in positions of authority that are survivors themselves and they get triggered.
Change is gonna take a long time in coming. It is societies views and standards on masculinity that need to change. The way boys are raised to hold their emotions , while girls are encouraged to cry doesnt make much sense. Our views are warped and masculinity as little to do with sexual orientation.What is worst is how many guys out there pretend that all is well in their lives with no outlet or resources to deal with the inside struggles. I firmly believe that most guys in here are one step ahead, some know it some don't see it yet. We had no choice but to face our demons, thats what brought us here and sent us to a Therapist.
I think there are a few answers to the SSA debate. There is SSA as viewed by us in the context of todays societal standards, and SSA as viewed by us in a logical , sequential manner without the context of society. The first is about us fitting in and being accepted from the outside and the latter is about us trying to understand and accept who we are.

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Look up and not down; look forward and not back; look out and not in; and lend a hand.
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#384588 - 02/06/12 02:25 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Anthony39]
westchesterguy Offline
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interesting this appeared in news just now. i can't imagine -at all- working for someone or for a company that just doesn't care if you are gay let alone go all out to support you! wish i knew someone at goldman sachs to network for job leads. lol. i do not understand why this approach is not the norm:

http://news.yahoo.com/goldman-sachs-ceo-lloyd-blankfein-same-sex-marriage-154452438--abc-news.html

_________________________
Jeff

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#384613 - 02/06/12 06:58 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: westchesterguy]
lapchinj Offline
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Edited by lapchinj (03/16/13 11:16 PM)
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#384666 - 02/07/12 07:39 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: lapchinj]
EdfromNYC Offline
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Edit: This is a bit of a rant so read it as such and take it with a grain of salt. Its not a rejection of the good from this conversation just another point of view.

Without trying to provoke, an forum titled "SSA or Gay" becomes an outlet for gay men to talk about their homophobic experiences and no one to talk about SSA. If this offends, sorry, but isn't there a forum for gay issues? I read all of this and have experienced some of it but there is no discussion of SSA just how hard it is to be gay. I get it but its the old tried and true on here. At least its not belligerent and berating like it can be on here but its subtly the same. To talk about SSA is discouraged and to talk about how hard it is to be gay is encouraged which is a way of dominating the conversation by numbers.

Its subtle but its the same. No disrespect but give it a break and let others have a point of view. Its not all about you all of the time. For others to have a different point of view doesn't mean you have to constantly state your point of view. By doing this, you inhibit dialogue and you make it about the same thing over and over and over. Its like you believe your own press.

I get it what all are writing about but its an echo chamber at times in here. Really, is this the right forum to get into being gay or is there a forum SPECIFICALLY created for discussing that, a forum that was created just so gay men could feel safe sharing? That's not enough though. So you know, I don't see gay and SSA as one better or worse or right or wrong. I'm not being anti-anything in the least. How many outlets are needed? That's all I want to know. A thread comes up with SSA in the title and look who the majority of the shares are from. Interesting to say the least.

Before you get all defensive and want to fight (because I'm not interested and not trying to provoke), think about it. Certain "voices" on here or groups of "voices" dominate by claiming victimhood and by claiming victimhood thereby trying to insinuate that to discuss any other point of view is thus re-victimizing people or at least going down that road. Just read at least two of the comments above that, IMO, threaten just that sentiment.

Its a weird way of shutting down discussion but it does the job. People on here, unintentionally (at least most but definitely not all), dominate and inhibit while discussing how they were dominated and inhibited. Ironic, huh?




Edited by EdfromNYC (02/07/12 07:53 AM)
_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#384670 - 02/07/12 07:57 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: EdfromNYC]
JustScott Offline
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Dominated and inhibited...

There's something I can relate too.... I haven't posted on this topic at all, but I've read every post as they arrrived.

I am one of those with a level of same sex attraction. There are times I just want to be used to be f**ked.

I've tried to talk about it before and you was shut down so now most times I don't bother.

I can't count the number of times I've been attacked, told I was just "denying" myself. That I was in "denial". That I just needed to stop being an idiot and get over it and just be gay.

I was made to feel like stupid and worthless S*it for not just jumping in whole hog and getting on the bandwagon.

So the response to that? The same as my response to the sexual abuse as a child. I pull away and avoid because it's just not worth going there.

I do my work in a quiet place now and know that what I experience is not from being gay. I have a huge wound related to never having a close connection with my father, confused even more by sexual abuse for most of my childhood. Those things aside, I love my wife, I'm attracted to my wife, I'm turned on by my wife.

I'm not attracted to men in any sexual way, but like I said before... sometimes (especially when I'm feeling down and worthless) I just want to get f**ked. Just like when I was a kid and the only time I felt wanted and valued was when I was being used.

Thanks Ed. Your candor and control in this conversation truly helps. (not to ignore others who have shown the same, but he did start the thread afterall).


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#384679 - 02/07/12 09:15 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: EdfromNYC]
westchesterguy Offline
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Originally Posted By: EdfromNYC
....So you know, I don't see gay and SSA as one better or worse or right or wrong. I'm not being anti-anything in the least. How many outlets are needed? That's all I want to know. A thread comes up with SSA in the title and look who the majority of the shares are from. Interesting to say the least.


ed, i've asked this before and still have no answer, which i think is partly why this topic comes back to "gay" stuff, if i've understood your post correctly.

please define (any of you) what same-sex attraction is and means and how it differs from being in or desiring a same-sex relationship.

_________________________
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#384680 - 02/07/12 09:26 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: JustScott]
lapchinj Offline
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Edited by lapchinj (03/16/13 11:17 PM)
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#384682 - 02/07/12 09:45 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: lapchinj]
JustScott Offline
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Sorry, you are right! Eric did start the thread! Sorry about that Eric. Guess a few things can get lost in 7 pages....

I can say that no one here has offended me in this thread, but like Ed, at times I sense some undertones in certain posts.

As for defining SSA... I think it honestly and truly is different for each person based on their own experiences and development. For me I think I defined it every well. I have no desire for a same-sex "relationship" at all. The relationship I desired was with a woman, but I've explained all the already and it's up there to be read.


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#384684 - 02/07/12 10:02 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: JustScott]
westchesterguy Offline
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Originally Posted By: JustScott
....As for defining SSA... I think it honestly and truly is different for each person based on their own experiences and development.


right, agree. that is why i asked ed and eric what their definition is/was.

yours was to get fucked to be candidly blunt if i have read correctly.

as i stated earlier, my definition of same-sex attraction is, not only "normal" if we are allowed to be living, breathing sexual men, which we aren't, but is: "i think brad pitt (or any other common name) is hot." and that is all it is intended to be. call it physical admiration?

_________________________
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#384688 - 02/07/12 10:38 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: JustScott]
Anthony39 Offline
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Good points Scott.
I have to admit I am more confused now than when this thread started.
All I can say is that my wife once asked me wether I thought I was gay and I answered her that if i was gay it would be a hell of a lot simpler in my mind and that no I am not.
I think it's a matter of peace for me . At this point in my life i need reality. Ive played far too many roles and have come so far, I don't really care how others may perceive me. Let them be busy with their own shit. Ive got enough on my plate.

_________________________
Look up and not down; look forward and not back; look out and not in; and lend a hand.
E. E. Hale


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM213aMKTHg

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#384690 - 02/07/12 10:49 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: lapchinj]
EdfromNYC Offline
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You definitely don't offend, Jeff. I am writing just to put you at ease. I value what you write, its from the heart and its experiential.

I didn't start the thread nor do I control it. Its just that anytime SSA is mentioned the thread follows pretty much the same course and the thread becomes more about being gay and anyone who does mention SSA spends more time defending it than exploring his feelings. There are some pointed questions toward me that are determined to make me defend my position or explain it to someone's satisfaction which I simply ignore.

Like I said, it was a bit of a rant, its been respectful in tone but I am honestly sick of the threads always reaching a fever pitch or getting to this point because some people won't allow this discussion to take place by claiming that they will somehow be victimized by others having this discussion. What then happens is it becomes unproductive and the admin shuts it down. How many times have I seen this? Too many times.

Put SSA in the title and watch the pattern. Here, I quote one of the opening posts:

Quote:
Ill share just a little before it gets crazy in here, and it will.


I was going to write that it doesn't get crazy by those who want to discuss SSA but I changed my mind. I think this whole area of sexuality and orientation is fucking confusing as hell and does make many of us "crazy" wherever we are in the so-called spectrum. I guess crazy is to be expected but not the constant drumbeat of one way to look at things and then if you don't, you have to spend the rest of the time justifying, explaining and making so sure that you don't even teensy-weensy step on the sensitivities of some. There is not a provocation in there - its a statement of fact.

Edit: I am working stuff out and even having a place to write this post is helpful. I feel fucked over having been molested and I am coming out from under that cloud but I'm 46 years old and the anger is starting to be a part of my life which in some ways is a helluva lot better than the confusion of guilt/shame/etc. but it has its own weight to deal with. I am feeling again but life in many ways has passed me by while I've been so stuck. I can only deal with what I've got and this is acceptance that I am going through, acceptance that I was actually abused. Just writing that sometimes its like I am writing it about myself for the first time, like I am still learning to believe it and hold the abuse (family and molester) responsible for the lack of relationships and career and other things that have been left undeveloped. I'm mad about the abuse more, so much more, than I am mad about other CSA survivors trying to find an outlet just like me.



Edited by EdfromNYC (02/07/12 10:54 AM)
_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#384695 - 02/07/12 11:08 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: EdfromNYC]
westchesterguy Offline
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i still wonder how it can be if someone says they have an issue with same-sex attraction, that they can't define what it is.

how can there be an issue with something they can't define?

_________________________
Jeff

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#384697 - 02/07/12 11:10 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: JustScott]
Chase Eric Offline
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I hope no one thinks I intended the thread to go anywhere other than explore a genuine question, albeit couched in a bit of rhetoric. I did, however, sense the thread being "hijacked" to meet a different agenda. But for the most part, it's on track.

It's really OK that we come here with different perspectives and even disagree. But I think it is important that we not "challenge" each other so directly. It smacks of interrogation and is precisely what is NOT called for at a site that purports to be a safe haven like MS. Perhaps it comes down to style, but Ed has every right to feel a bit targeted here. It's OK to shoot off our guns because that's part of the work we do. But should we not perhaps be more careful where we aim them?

The topic of this thread will inherently carry a lot of subtle triggers. If it was easy to discuss, it probably wouldn't be so worth discussing. And things can get personal. For example, if I accept my SSA as really being more sexual identity than aberration, then could I feel threatened by someone who still pronounces their SSA as an undesired affect of abuse? Sure. So I check my indignations at the door before I step in here.

I mentioned to a friend of mine here that we seem like the walruses sea lions on the floating piers in San Francisco. If anyone has been to San Francisco and seen the walruses sea lions that hang out at Pier 39 (plenty of YouTube on it), that's the way I sometimes see us. It feels like we're all piled up together on this little raft called MS, and when someone moves, everyone gets kicked a little. For all the talk of avoiding triggers, we are constantly needled by other perspectives and statements. It's unavoidable.

That said, the points made by Ed and Scott are quite valid. But it goes back to the crux of my question that started this thread. Where does "SSA" end and "Gay" begin? I can understand to a point the fundamental difference between the two. But do our lives and feelings and emotions break down that easily into discrete packages like SSA or Gay? It's not so clear cut for me. Hence the question - and the title of this thread - SSA or Gay?

It may be easy for some to say. well SSA is this and Gay is that. And that makes sense to some of us. But it is in the gray zones that the issue lies for me. I'm not convinced that once something is categorized as "gay" it belongs in a different forum - that completely ignores the nuances inherent in the whole topic and disconnects the discussion. I came here to become whole again, yet the site invites me to separate myself into different pieces again...

I think Jeff says it best that - and I am paraphrasing - our differences are what make the world go round. Ultimately, I'm here to discuss, explore and even celebrate those differences. Not argue with them.



Edited by Chase Eric (02/07/12 11:48 AM)
Edit Reason: Changed species from walruses to sea lions
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#384699 - 02/07/12 11:36 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Chase Eric]
Anthony39 Offline
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Sorry Eric, they're sea lions not walruses. Interestingly it fits. Walrus/sea lion, gay/ssa. Lol. Just being a smart ass.

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#384700 - 02/07/12 11:37 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Chase Eric]
EdfromNYC Offline
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Quote:
I'm not convinced that once something is categorized as "gay" it belongs in a different forum


I completely agree with you, wholeheartedly. I was only stressing that a forum has been set up for gay men to feel safe (as relayed by an admin) and, I guess, gay men can feel safe everywhere on here but can SSA men? Is there a place for SSA to be discussed "safely" without the conversation trending toward "gay"? That's more rhetorical than anything and its really just an answer to be determined.

Even voicing my opinion on this thread and being allowed to be upset and have it heard, wow, what a difference! For me, this may ultimately be more the lesson that I need to learn, that I can be heard and respected, that I can do the same for others, that I can recognize healing-centric posts and those that are more debate-centric. It feels like I've been heard even though I haven't been (yeah, I notice it) talking about my SSA specifically. But the respect that I have for the people I've been communicating with has been growing in the last few weeks and it is giving me space to be less afraid to approach this stuff with more honesty and less fear. Even though I haven't been talking about specifics, which I don't even know if there are specifics to mention, I understand more than ever that other men grapple with sexual identity issues and have the same questions as me, the same questions and I guess I am focusing less on the conclusion and more on the process of getting to peace with self.

_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
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#384701 - 02/07/12 11:38 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Chase Eric]
JustScott Offline
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Now that I'm talking (typing) I want to dive into this a whole bit more, but I do so get easily distracted....

I agree Eric, I think it's not so black and white. I think that's why it's so hard to discuss. I think it really is a person to person thing and not so easily defined.

As humans, I think we want it to be black and white. We want a binary Yes/No, On/Off kind of view of things. It would make life simple! So I think many want this kind of thing to fit into that mold and when someone says something that doesn't fit that mold they get defensive of offensive or what have you.

I think maybe it's like a spectrum. My son and I are both on the Autism Spectrum. Somewhere around PDD-NOS and Asperger's. (so this goes on to further convolute my own sense of isolation and distance from others). Most people when they hear "Autism" they imagine people like the fellow from Rain Man. Unable to take care of himself, unable to be normal, etc. But Autism isn't so simple. It literally is a spectrum. Most people who are around me long enough, will categorize me as being a little "weird" or "strange". Yet in the framework of the Autism spectrum you'll see I'm neither weird or strange. I'm perfectly normal for where I am and how my brain thinks in different ways than all those "normal" people out there. Honestly I kinda like it, I'd hate to be just like everyone else out there.... yet at the same time, it leaves me struggle to connect with others, because I don't think the same way.

Anyway, all that to say that I think this SSA/Gay thing is neither black or white or so cut and dry.

I'll share more later when I have time. Perhaps by sharing how SSA manifests itself in me it'll shed some more understanding perhaps.


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#384702 - 02/07/12 11:39 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Chase Eric]
westchesterguy Offline
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Registered: 11/13/09
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Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: Chase Eric
... Where does "SSA" end and "Gay" begin? I can understand to a point the fundamental difference between the two.


curious to me how some can translate questions into a personal attack. we aren't in court. if the offense makes "one think" outside the safety of his box, well, i say that is all good -- if he really intends to grow and learn.

to answer your question: in my view they run parallel, thus not defined by beginning and/or ending. if we are honest with ourselves, same-sex attraction is as normal as eating lunch - for every man alive. "brad pitt is hot" is the example i've used, which is far different than another guy's definition shared on this thread.

gay, a term i despise, is far more complicated and i think it evolves for some men. if we were allowed to be honest with ourselves there might be more men able/willing/desiring to express affection for another man, perhaps their best bud, through what i define as making love. but that is not acceptable behavior so says society on any level - so men shut it before it gets that far.

there are guys, such as myself, who desire one and only one relationship with "the right" guy. society calls it "gay" so be it. i don't.

where i think there is a big disconnect though (hence my questions on these pages) is when those who define same-sex attraction as "gay" and thus, they find/seek out "me and guys like me" for their own selfish, one night boner release, this is really no different than what was done to us as kids.

_________________________
Jeff

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#384703 - 02/07/12 11:49 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Anthony39]
Chase Eric Offline
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Originally Posted By: Anthony39
Sorry Eric, they're sea lions not walruses. Interestingly it fits. Walrus/sea lion, gay/ssa. Lol. Just being a smart ass.

I'm into accuracy, and have edited my post accordingly. I learn something new here every day. Thanks, ((Anthony))!

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#384704 - 02/07/12 12:00 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: westchesterguy]
Bradley P Offline


Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 44
Loc: AR
I guess we'll see how safe it is in here for SSA convos with my post haha. Let me preface by saying the obvious: I'm not trying to offend. I just want to be honest with my feelings. Hopefully, everyone here (and I mean everyone) can post how they really feel without fear of a kind of persecution for coming in here from a different side of the coin.

Here goes: I honestly feel there is a vast difference between "gay" and "SSA."

Gay is a community, it is an identity. It is something that with those who identify with it feel pride, and genuine romantic and sexual attractions for their gender. SSA, in my opinion, is something I suffer from. It's a condition. You've heard of people who call themselves "women trapped in a man's body"? Meaning, they feel like women, but they are actually men?

Well, for me, SSA is like being a straight person trapped in a "gay" person's body. (Now don't stone me yet :)) By that I mean, I don't feel a gay identity inside, but my body (the physical outside part of me) just sometimes experiences these unattached, unpersonalized, mechanical, non-relational, non-romantic, compulsive sexual desires for the masculine body. And it is pure hell and torment. I don't look at guys and long to be in a relationship with them, holding their hand, kissing them, getting flowers from them or going on dates. I only feel that way with girls. The idea of meeting the right girl is what I dream of.

With SSA, I'm driven by a sexual impulse to act out sometimes (mostly through gay p.orn) but that desire makes me want to kill myself; why? Cause it feels like a drug addiction, not an identity, not simply an attraction.

Calling myself "Gay and Proud" would be, for me, like saying I'm a crackhead and proud; for me, "accepting" myself as "gay" would never materialize in a relationship; it would materialize as a lifestyle of anonymous s.ex, and porn. And shame shame shame, guilt, and probably suicide. Why? Because I'm acting out my abuse pattern, not acting out my true nature, and so, I'm only hurting myself more and more.

Whenever I feel strong SSA feelings, I have written down exactly what I'm feeling. What I wrote down was very telling; I said, "I'm feeling like a little boy right now, getting beat up by big, tough jocks." Not a crush, not butterflies in my stomach...getting punched and kicked and hurt by guys I'm seeking approval from. That's not an attraction; that's an addiction that has stemmed from abuse.

So, no I'm not gay, I'm straight, but I experience SSA and it is extremely painful, and difficult to talk about, as it is all wrapped up in the worpped world of sexual abuse.








Edited by Bradley P (02/07/12 12:03 PM)
_________________________
"Life is for living, we all know...but I don't want to live it alone"-Chris Martin (Coldplay)

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#384705 - 02/07/12 12:09 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Bradley P]
westchesterguy Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bradley P
...So, no I'm not gay, I'm straight..


well, bravo to you bradley for explaining. smile at least from my view, i have been asking for guys to explain exactly how you just did.

_________________________
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#384709 - 02/07/12 12:24 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: westchesterguy]
Bradley P Offline


Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 44
Loc: AR
haha, good I'm glad. I hope I wasn't offensive, but it's just sometimes when we try to explain something in such political correctness, we never really can get the point we're trying to make across. So, I had to give myself permission to just be real.

I sometimes wonder if the fear on this forum is that SSA-topics are cloaked gay-bashing, or homophobia. Then you have the other side which is fear of being told you are something you feel you are not. We should all tolerate each other, and help each other resolve the confusing feelings all of us struggle with as a result of the abuse we experienced.

I think for those here who identify as straight but experience SSA, it is not simply a "Brad Pitt is hot" kind of thing that is normal for straight-identified, nor is it a "I want to go out with that guy over there" that is normal for gay-identified...it's "I feel a compulsion to (insert various sexual act/s)with someone who happens to look like/remind me of my abuser," or "I feel a compulsion to view (insert various sexual act/s) and people engaged in this behavior who just so happen to look like/remind me of my abuser/abusive situation."

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"Life is for living, we all know...but I don't want to live it alone"-Chris Martin (Coldplay)

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#384710 - 02/07/12 12:32 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Bradley P]
Chase Eric Offline
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Hi, Bradley!

First, I think it's wild that while Brad Pitt has been intoned here a few times here, that someone named Bradley P would actually enter the conversation.

I definitely hear you. I myself have identified as gay, but I've really been on both sides of this fence, having seen my attraction to men as something I was conditioned to enjoy by my abuser. The fact is, I'll never know who I would have become had I not been abused. I suspect I may have dated and married a girl - but I'll never know because young eric was taken by the hand by a trusted "big brother" and taken down a different path.

For me, SSA was like an amputation. I would not accept that part of my sexuality was altered, disfigured. It's like a guy whose leg is hopelessly mangled, and the limp is the result. I felt like I was railing against that limp - determined to be whole again and walk smoothly. At some point, however, I knew that I would never resolve it, and decide to accept it (embrace it?) instead.

Have I surrendered a second time? The first time, my molester had his way. I would always - at least I remember always - say "no", but as he got moving along, my body would start saying "yes" at the same time. There was a huge disconnect and I think that not wanting it - yet at the same time wanting it - is the biggest psych in this whole mess. That may be a unique issue with boys because of the way we are wired. If he had just punched me or beat me up every night instead, then at least the feelings of my mind and body would be consistent with each other.

Continuing the SSA to me at least meant perpetuating this disconnect. Yet the paradox is, if I embraced or indulged my SSA by acting on it in any way, it felt like I was validating my molester's victory and my complicity.

So the issue of SSA and sexuality is fundamental to me because that is where the scars grew. And I thank you for your open and honest sharing.

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#384711 - 02/07/12 12:35 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Bradley P]
EdfromNYC Offline
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Registered: 02/18/10
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Bradley, you did this topic justice and explained my experience as well. It has caused me to stay in the cycle of abuse for far too long, to act out in even the smallest way on my SSA (which could simply mean lingering too long in a mental state) is exactly like being caught up in an addiction, sort of being addicted to my abuse.





Edited by EdfromNYC (02/07/12 12:37 PM)
_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
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#384712 - 02/07/12 12:57 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: EdfromNYC]
Bradley P Offline


Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 44
Loc: AR
Thanks guys.

Haha, yeah, what if I was actually THE Brad Pitt, huh huh?? LOL

Eric I think your de>
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#384714 - 02/07/12 01:19 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Bradley P]
westchesterguy Offline
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Registered: 11/13/09
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Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: Bradley P
..."I feel a compulsion to (insert various sexual act/s)with someone who happens to look like/remind me of my abuser," or "I feel a compulsion to view (insert various sexual act/s) and people engaged in this behavior who just so happen to look like/remind me of my abuser/abusive situation."


bradley, i came to the conclusion a long time ago that it isn't my responsibility to be politically correct... nor to worry about someone's feeling offended from "assumptions they themselves have made" without the courtesy of seeking clarity.

what strikes me from your post is exactly the issue i have been trying to bring forward here. some may think it is offensive to discuss this detail - not my problem though.

if i understand your conclusion correctly, you are suggesting that the "compulsion" is planted by the abuser -- and fostered by the adult survivor?

i think that second part is where the guilt, self-doubt, self-hatred is coming from?

and yet, i do not see how same-sex attraction, and or being gay has anything at all to do with "compulsively acting out." i see these as three entirely different issues.

i will coin this phrase-- "three sets of abuse benefactors"

one: the "westchester guys" of the world attempt to find a male mate. but we get screwed when, lo and behold, the only choices available are male survivors "seeking" sex, baited with the hint of a relationship. and i define these guys across the spectrum, because gays do this too.

two: specifically "straight" male survivors use the gay guy to have sex, for whatever purpose, albeit to relive childhood abuse etc.

three: that same-sex desire internally is --instead of acting out-- used to "lash out" at all things the "westchester guy"s of the world are trying to seek in order to find happiness. i.e. ban gay marriage, adoption etc. etc.

do these definitions resonate with anyone?


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#384721 - 02/07/12 01:51 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: westchesterguy]
JustScott Offline
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Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2574
I think once again it comes down to how you define SSA. Your definition and mine are obviously different as are yours and Bradley's. And I think he did a supurb job of defining SSA from his perspective.

I gotta be honest, It seems to me that your still trying to force his and others versions of SSA into your own definition and by doing such, your telling us that our version has got to be wrong.


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#384722 - 02/07/12 02:06 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: JustScott]
westchesterguy Offline
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Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: JustScott
....It seems to me that your still trying to force his and others versions of SSA into your own definition and by doing such, your telling us that our version has got to be wrong.


not sure what you mean by that.

i think two things: first, the definitions themselves may in fact be a much bigger issue than same-sex attraction and gay in and of itself. and secondly, i'm trying to compile, through these examples, what i'm reading from these various posts into something more succinct as it progresses.

i don't believe we will agree that "same-sex attraction" means A, and gay means B, and compulsion means c, but rather i would hope we can all learn:

1) what these terms mean in a general sense,
2) how we developed and process those terms internally,
3) perhaps learn that our own internal definition isn't what we thought it to be.

_________________________
Jeff

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#384723 - 02/07/12 02:09 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Bradley P]
Avery46 Offline


Registered: 09/23/10
Posts: 1243
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Bradley P
...I sometimes wonder if the fear on this forum is that SSA-topics are cloaked gay-bashing, or homophobia....


Bradley,

I am glad you stated what I have been scared to mention. This topic is always very "heated".

Trying to come up with a definition of Gay or SSA is very difficult since others will get offended.

I am very interested in what others believe for themselves as well as I need to be respected for how I believe life is for me. For me the fear gets huge since we only get to live this life once.

Peace,
Avery

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aka DJsport

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#384725 - 02/07/12 02:18 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: westchesterguy]
JustScott Offline
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Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2574
Originally Posted By: westchesterguy
Originally Posted By: JustScott
....It seems to me that your still trying to force his and others versions of SSA into your own definition and by doing such, your telling us that our version has got to be wrong.


not sure what you mean by that.

i think two things: first, the definitions themselves may in fact be a much bigger issue than same-sex attraction and gay in and of itself. and secondly, i'm trying to compile, through these examples, what i'm reading from these various posts into something more succinct as it progresses.

i don't believe we will agree that "same-sex attraction" means A, and gay means B, and compulsion means c, but rather i would hope we can all learn:

1) what these terms mean in a general sense,
2) how we developed and process those terms internally,
3) perhaps learn that our own internal definition isn't what we thought it to be.


Sounds like an agreeable goal to me.

And I agree that it's never going to be an A/B/C thing. It's far more convoluted and confused than that due to a wide range of factors. Abuse doesn't happen in a vacuum. Like the statement from Mike Lew that was shared, a lot of abuse happens under the umbrella of neglect that made the child vulnerable in the first place. That in of itself compounds all the issues.

What I meant by my statement, was as I read your previous definitions, it came across to me as if you were trying to take Bradley experiences and fit them into your personal definition as SSA (that whole, "Brad Pitt's one hot dude" example). If that wasn't the case, so be it, just read that way on my end here.


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#384727 - 02/07/12 02:19 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: westchesterguy]
Chase Eric Offline
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Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1307
Originally Posted By: westchesterguy
...and yet, i do not see how same-sex attraction, and or being gay has anything at all to do with "compulsively acting out." i see these as three entirely different issues.

This reminds me about a special I saw once on the psychology of sociopaths (NOT comparing anyone here or any SSA issues to that!). What stuck with me is that the sociopathic tendencies they had were not what was so unique as the fact that they lacked the ability to "keep a lid on it" - almost like a bolt or screw was missing in their brain, allowing them to act without compunction or morals.

That resonated, because I immediately thought of my molester. He just helped himself to all of us in the neighborhood - absolutely lacking any control over his urges with us.

I think Jeff may be concerned about how SSA - and fighting those "demons" - may manifest their way outward to hurt or confuse others. Homophobia could well be an outward manifestation of unresolved SSA, but I really don't know, and my thoughts don't default to that. I am pretty convinced my abuser - who went after little girls AND me - had deep-seated issues with SSA. I remember early in the abuse I learned what the word "homosexual" meant, then it hit me that maybe that's what he was making me do. I remember crying about it with him - but he insisted we were not gay ("Everybody does this, Eric - trust me. All the guys do it..."). And I believed him - but I didn't really have a clue. He insisted he was not a homosexual - as if that by default didn't make me one.

I don't even know the significance of that - just a memory or fact from my past, as if that has anything to do with this topic (or not)...

I want to make this very clear, by the way - I have no issues with anyone's perspectives here. I firmly believe there is no right or wrong - there just IS. We are who we are, gay, straight, SSA, or into walruses. Whatever. Noone has to explain themselves here - and they certainly don't have to explain themselves to me. And I'll never ask. I am so very appreciative that everyone here is sharing - I consider you all friends. That is all I need to know.

_________________________



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#384737 - 02/07/12 02:49 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: JustScott]
westchesterguy Offline
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Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: JustScott

Sounds like an agreeable goal to me.


i see this as an effort to size it up, right?

i wish we were in a room with a big white board - we would all have pens, contribute to the outline, draw matrix lines, correlate terms and conditions and map it out. we'd have met for six or eight hours and been done with it - i think. and hopefully, everyone would walk out feeling better about themselves and each other....

this message board business is a nightmare to someone like me who sees things visually - on that white board for example.

nonethless, i'm learning from you and others who do write how they define these terms and act on them. to be quite frank, now, i'm wondering how many guys in my own past were acting out rather than "dating me" and i get a clearer picture of why there aren't any healthy guys available to date right now. (i.e. the healthy gay guys are already taken, the single ones just post on c.l. for a quickie but aren't necessarily gay.)

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#384743 - 02/07/12 03:01 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: westchesterguy]
Bradley P Offline


Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 44
Loc: AR
"if i understand your conclusion correctly, you are suggesting that the "compulsion" is planted by the abuser -- and fostered by the adult survivor?

i think that second part is where the guilt, self-doubt, self-hatred is coming from?

and yet, i do not see how same-sex attraction, and or being gay has anything at all to do with "compulsively acting out." i see these as three entirely different issues."

Westchester, I think that to understand what a compulsion is is hard to describe if you haven't expereienced it. When I (rhetorically)see a goodlooking guy, I can know that he is goodlooking and yet not feel sexually attracted (straight), or I could find him attractive, imagine myself in a relationship with him wanting to make love and spend my life with him (gay).

If I just made out with my girlfriend and had an erection and was feeling hot and heavy, but then she said something that triggered me in some way, and I go home feeling bad, then go onto the computer and feel an internal drive to look at a certain sex act that just happens to be between two men...even if I have a conversation with myself and know that I don't want to, or that I see most men as my brother (which is really problematic for me in many ways all its own) and not a potential lover and yet I can't get the obsessive drive out of my mind that I "need" to look at the porn to feel better, and inevitably it does feel "good" in a sense that it gives me a high/or a buzz. Then the thoughts go, "well I must be gay, so I should just accept it" so I spend hours looking at the porn until I finally find it unappealing, or I open up a chat window with a guy and can't manage to say anything other than "How's it going" or "what's your favorite band" because I can't force myself to be sexual with a dude in real life....and then the after affects of watching porn...feels like I just watched my best friends have sex, it feels incestuous, it is gut-wrenching, andittakes me right back to the abusive state. And the cycle repeats itself.

That is the hell that is SSA. Not all guys who struggle with ithave an urge to act out or have an addictive cycle, but if you do, it's extremely painful and confusing. If I was simply gay, that would be one thing, but as for me, I continually have a wtf feeling in my mind cause I don't have a clue.



Edited by Bradley P (02/07/12 03:03 PM)
_________________________
"Life is for living, we all know...but I don't want to live it alone"-Chris Martin (Coldplay)

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#384748 - 02/07/12 03:25 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: westchesterguy]
EdfromNYC Offline
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Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
Okay, good to see the conversation moving along. Now, definitions of SSA have been provided as asked for repeatedly and it seems to satisfaction. Can we go further?

It took 10 pages on here just to put people at ease, just to try to make sure people's feelings weren't hurt, just to make sure that other voices were being heard. Its been about other voices being heard for the last 20 years for me, not my voice. Its been about shutting my voice down as being in denial, being hate-filled, being bigoted, being ignorant, behind the times, etc. So, we have to spend all this time, explaining, defending, justifying, all while being ultra-sensitive to how we say things just so we can say things.

Is there now enough room to discuss deeper issues now that everyone's feelings have been attended to or do we still have to consider not being controversial? I've hated that I have SSA. I don't hate myself for it anymore but I am not happy with myself that I acted on it for many years. I have many regrets and I was very confused with my SSA for many years especially after seeing a therapist when I was 24 years old, just beginning to suspect that I was molested and that caused my SSA and I was told not to go down that road by a gay therapist. He said I was gay and that at 13 I was looking for sex with men, therefore, I must be gay. That same pressure exists in society. I've hated that my body has reactions that have lead me to believe that I am attracted to men, sexually, while not really wanting that with men. I'm much less confused than I've been and I can now see fleeting feelings but it has been a long, slow, slog without much social support.

I'm sure some of these issues aren't particular to SSA but more to CSA so I'm not trying to push away others who identify through their own experience, gay, straight, whatever. This is an area that has been particularly difficult for me and now that I am dealing with CSA in group and private, I guess my sexuality is healing and some of this venting is having held on to certain things for a very, very long time.

I'm glad people wrote what they did. It could have been done without the contrarian questioning.

_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#384772 - 02/07/12 05:48 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Bradley P]
Castle Offline


Registered: 10/03/09
Posts: 727
Loc: NJ
I dont think there is anything wrong at all with this post, and hits many things right on the head for those men who have SSA and dont feel they are gay...IMO, two totally different things.

Still missing the like button around here, but I would suspect this post would have many.

The rest of my thoughts might derail were this got, so I'll be shhh.

Originally Posted By: Bradley P
I guess we'll see how safe it is in here for SSA convos with my post haha. Let me preface by saying the obvious: I'm not trying to offend. I just want to be honest with my feelings. Hopefully, everyone here (and I mean everyone) can post how they really feel without fear of a kind of persecution for coming in here from a different side of the coin.

Here goes: I honestly feel there is a vast difference between "gay" and "SSA."

Gay is a community, it is an identity. It is something that with those who identify with it feel pride, and genuine romantic and sexual attractions for their gender. SSA, in my opinion, is something I suffer from. It's a condition. You've heard of people who call themselves "women trapped in a man's body"? Meaning, they feel like women, but they are actually men?

Well, for me, SSA is like being a straight person trapped in a "gay" person's body. (Now don't stone me yet :)) By that I mean, I don't feel a gay identity inside, but my body (the physical outside part of me) just sometimes experiences these unattached, unpersonalized, mechanical, non-relational, non-romantic, compulsive sexual desires for the masculine body. And it is pure hell and torment. I don't look at guys and long to be in a relationship with them, holding their hand, kissing them, getting flowers from them or going on dates. I only feel that way with girls. The idea of meeting the right girl is what I dream of.

With SSA, I'm driven by a sexual impulse to act out sometimes (mostly through gay p.orn) but that desire makes me want to kill myself; why? Cause it feels like a drug addiction, not an identity, not simply an attraction.

Calling myself "Gay and Proud" would be, for me, like saying I'm a crackhead and proud; for me, "accepting" myself as "gay" would never materialize in a relationship; it would materialize as a lifestyle of anonymous s.ex, and porn. And shame shame shame, guilt, and probably suicide. Why? Because I'm acting out my abuse pattern, not acting out my true nature, and so, I'm only hurting myself more and more.

Whenever I feel strong SSA feelings, I have written down exactly what I'm feeling. What I wrote down was very telling; I said, "I'm feeling like a little boy right now, getting beat up by big, tough jocks." Not a crush, not butterflies in my stomach...getting punched and kicked and hurt by guys I'm seeking approval from. That's not an attraction; that's an addiction that has stemmed from abuse.

So, no I'm not gay, I'm straight, but I experience SSA and it is extremely painful, and difficult to talk about, as it is all wrapped up in the worpped world of sexual abuse.






_________________________

My posts can self destruct at any time..read them while you can.

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#384775 - 02/07/12 06:00 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Castle]
Anthony39 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 345
Loc: Montreal, Canada
I dream of a world where we don't question the motives of a chicken crossing the road.

_________________________
Look up and not down; look forward and not back; look out and not in; and lend a hand.
E. E. Hale


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM213aMKTHg

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#384780 - 02/07/12 06:49 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: EdfromNYC]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: EdfromNYC
.....when I was 24 years old, just beginning to suspect that I was molested and that caused my SSA and I was told not to go down that road by a gay therapist. He said I was gay and that at 13 I was looking for sex with men, therefore, I must be gay. That same pressure exists in society.


in my view ed what he did was not only cruel but criminal. i am very sorry you had to go through that at anytime, but especially in a particularly difficult time. to editorialize - that is why i made a point to avoid a therapist who was gay. yes, i do think there is an agenda... and i am not a party to it, nor have i ever been. and as i've said before --to the disdain of some fellow gay men-- it is the gay community's responsibility to fix. not yours or mine.

now - this concept occurred to me so i put it out there for everyone.

how much of this, what i call almost self-torture from same-sex attraction, is simply normal sexuality?

i ask because, remarkable or not, my male euro friends (who have indeed always been comfortable in their own skin and none of them abused as kids) discussed same-sex issues with me candidly. all of my male euro and uk friends did have sex with a bud at some point. they are all straight, most are married, all under 40.

i can't say this about men i've met in the u.s. in fact outside of this board and therapy and group -- i can't say i've ever discussed sexuality with any man in this country.

why is this?

what is bloody normal?

is it indeed normal for a guy to, let's just say, in the course of his young, horny, exploratory life, even just fantasize about his best friend?

if it was normal for men to think about another guy, fantasize, or today so easily view a self posted video by a guy doing something - then how many here here are indeed just reacting to what is normal? and thus, how does that affect defining acceptable same-sex attraction versus something that becomes an inhibitor to seeking healthy relationships?

and i do not profess to know what that fine line is. i think we are unique due to our forced, same-sex, manipulated past.

but what if the benchmark of "normal sexuality" is actually somewhat higher than we all think?

_________________________
Jeff

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#384814 - 02/07/12 10:13 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: westchesterguy]
Bradley P Offline


Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 44
Loc: AR
I think you raise a very interesting point westchester.

In fact, it is one that I can say I have felt myself in small measure. When I was younger (late teens, early twenties) I had a very close relationship with my guys friends that bordered on erotic in many respects. I suppose today it would be called a "bromance" haha.

Many things were done out of genuine affection (kiss on the cheek, prolonged hugs, sharing beds and "spooning"), other things done out of just being free with the guys (skinny dipping...albeit in the dark).

But some things were done that still confuse me. One of my best friends use to do many "triggering" things to me that I didn't understand. Actually, I should probably put a trigger warning here.

TRIGGERS!!!

I once woke up on a road trip to my friends "rubbing" me, as a joke, because I had an erection in my sleep. One friend use to cuddle so close to me that things were touching, so to speak. I can't say that any of this wasn't something I enjoyed...I really really did/do. In fact, westchester, I don't feel a bit ashamed of any of the above. Not one bit.

But these are "normal" whatever that word means, ways of being close to my buds. But although these were certainly erotic, none of it was particularly lustful (in other words, I wouldn't say that I ever had thoughts like, "I want to f**k him so badly" kind of thing, or even make out).

In fact, I was once hit on by another good friend. He was very goodlooking, someone I would acknowledge as extremely nice looking. We hung out all the time, and once we fell asleep on the couch. I woke up to us in a cuddling position and it felt nice. Then, my friend started touching me...still nice, then more, then more, then groping and attempted kiss and more...and it freaked me out. I didn't want that, at all! Gross me out? No. Something I desired? No. It just felt wrong to me.

So, I guess you could say there is a level of same sex attraction that isn't in any way scary. But sex itself is something I can't do (i'm a virgin by the way) or think about with a guy without it feeling like abuse. And yet, that's the allure of porn sometimes. Porn seems to recreate some of the "nice" feelings at the beginning stages of viewing it; the feelings of closeness, of "intimacy" if you will with my best buds. But always, always when I view hardcore gay porn, even if I desired to look, the feeling is overwhelming. It's a fiery, line-crossing (for me) kind of feeling, like I just took a hit of cocaine and it has always felt like I crossed some boundary in my spirit that shouldn't be crossed. LIke, I'm betraying my own body, like it is born out of a hurt deep inside. It never feels fulfilling.

Yet when I view girls online, I don't feel that way. It feels good...the high may not be as intense, but after I orgasm, I feel great, whole, good and gooey inside (for lack of better phrasing lol). When I make out with a girl, it feels nice, good, right for me, safe. I've never kissed a guy, but the thought gives me triggering emotions that don't feel the way I would suppose a "gay" man would feel. I think it's more akeen to PTSD feelings? If that makes any sense.

Anyways. I have to say, I don't completely understand the euro/uk thing of "I had sex with my best bud," that still seems a little weird to me. But, I digress

_________________________
"Life is for living, we all know...but I don't want to live it alone"-Chris Martin (Coldplay)

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#384834 - 02/08/12 12:33 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Bradley P]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1307
Well, I have learned more in this thread since I've been at MS than at any other point - even the little personal "squabbles" were enlightening to some degree. But my confusion over this issue has grown...

I was just a little tongue-in-cheek with my opening post (a week ago now), but I wanted to repeat one line because it is where I have the biggest questions after all the wonderful posts since...

Originally Posted By: eric
But being gay was a choice all along, and if I had the will power, I could have just been straight with SSA instead.

I really am starting to wonder, after reading some of the posts here and elsewhere on MS, if that actually may be true.

For instance, I just read Bradley's post (thanks for sharing it!). I self-identify as gay (vs. straight with SSA). But I must say the depth of emotion, eroticism, and trust in his last post is on the level of the very best I have experienced as a gay man, and not that often at that.

Here's another thing that's even stranger - while I identify as gay, it is STRAIGHT porn that turns me on more. I find gay porn - well - sort of disgusting. I'm gay and I don't watch gay porn - I never even go to the sites. From what I am reading here, there are more straight guys that are into gay porn than I am. Frankly, I don't go out of the way to look at ANY porn, but when I do, my preference is straight porn. Yet nothing compares for me to the feeling of being with a man, being held by a man. But - I think that I could enjoy being with a girl as well, even though it would be an opposite experience for me all the way around...

I'm feeling more confused than ever right now about my sexual growth and my sexual choices.

A realization occurred to me that is a bit disturbing, however - maybe it explains it a little. Let me lay the background first (I need to get my butt in gear and finally post my story, I suppose...)

******TrIgGeRsTiGgErStRiGgErStRiGgErS*******

When I was being molested, so was my younger sister - by the same guy (he was also molesting half the 7-year-old girls in the neighborhood). I was very aware of what he was doing to her, but wouldn't dare go to any adults since they might find out he was doing me as well - and I was full of secrets and shame that I tried to protect equally as much as her. I was absolutely on a mission to keep him away from her as often as I could manage it. I'd run interference, knowing if he screwed me first, he'd be "out of bullets" for the rest of the day (hey - I was 12-13 but I knew it worked). These episodes probably ran more frequently and intensely than my memory suggests - I got an email out of the blue some time ago from another girl who thanked me for "saving her" from him - and I don't even remember her being caught in his web! I was a busy little tramp...

So here's the realization: accepting this very specific submissive sexual role over and over again was like a survival strategy on a few levels. First, it spared my sister and the other girls - if only for the rest of that day. Second, by embracing the victim role I was forced to play, it at least assured me I would not be an aggressor (in my black-and-white world, I learned that the REAL good guys were submissive, and the evil ones were dominant.) And third, it perhaps made me "whole"...

Being "whole" - by that, I mean I was extremely conflicted all over the place. I hated him - it started as him being like a big brother to me, but when the sex started - and especially when my sister and the other girls were caught up in it, I absolutely detested him. I was reluctant in the beginning to "do it". Yet the physical enjoyment was always there, and became more intense when I relaxed about it over the months that followed. Ejaculations eventually became orgasms (fine line - but there is a difference IMHO - with the former, it can be just a physiologic response, but the latter involves sensual surrender and mental complicity.) Was I reconciling the "yes" of physical stimulation with the "no" of mental and verbal reluctance by doing that? I couldn't stop the stimulation he made me endure - he managed to tickle the evil sex twin out of me every time. But by surrendering sexually to him, I only had the dichotomy of my dirty secret life to deal with...

When I left the area - moved cross country as soon as I could establish my independence - I naively expected to leave all that crap 3000 miles away and become who I was meant to be - straight (with SSA that would gradually go away on it's own once I enjoyed the irresistable pleasures of beautiful girls). I won't even begin to describe the lengths I tried to go to make that happen, but they were damn near extreme - including dangerous living-on-the-edge experiences to "scare the gay" out of me. In the end, however, it just never happened the way I had hoped it would. Like Jonah - my demons just followed me everywhere I went.

I know I'm wounded. I know I'm dysfunctional on some levels, likely because of the abuse and all the twisted mind games I had to endure and even create. I have learned very recently that my sister had her own difficult struggle with this. She flat out told me that after she came to terms with it, she considered being gay, because she just didn't trust men (that's an interesting twist in this SSA vs Gay thread...). And we are both concerned about another sister as well who we suspect may be holding secrets herself.

So I don't know - I guess I'm gay because I don't feel like fighting that fight anymore? I'm not sure I could ever win it. But the question STILL remains - Am I just SSA? wtf?

_________________________



Click my pic to see why I'm here

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#384842 - 02/08/12 03:59 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Chase Eric]
1lifenow Offline


Registered: 03/07/11
Posts: 398
Loc: west coast
Scenarios ala Eric:

1. Men having sex with men : Gay or not gay?
Trick question, its both and in both cases having sex with a man is a CHOICE. As adults, we chose to have sex with a man. My previously homophobic brother said it was an aquired taste but I degress.

2. Men having attraction to another man : Gay or not gay?
its both, did not fool you i bet. But in this case it is NOT A CHOICE.

3. Men having a desire for an emotional ROMANTIC (thanks js) connection with another man. Gay or not gay? Gay and also not a choice.


Lets discuss:

1. Men who were abused but default to mostly st8 are more likely to have sex with men as a result of imprinting, re-enacting abuse and/or sexual compulsion( more likely to drink and gamble etc too). Gay men also have sex with men but even if they never do they are still gay. Gay men can be monogamous, monogomish (have affairs preferably if both partners agree
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove?oid=11412386
or they can fuck like mink. As long as both men are fully consenting adults this is not abuse in any way even if paddles are uses - thats called kink. oi is this getting fun? I am not jewish i just like the expression.

2. Attraction is built in, not something that can be suppressed or changed. It can be acted upon or not. So again men with SSA have attraction usually only to a penis or specific act involving orgasm - usually not touching, kissing or anything icky like that. ( this is what female prostitutes do , have sex with men but no connection - they are happy to give a bj but no kissing). Straight men can appreciate another male such as the football coach saying " I want the guy on my team, he is a stud!" no sexual attraction but an appreciation of the human male form like Michealangelo's David.
Some definitions of homosexual define it as man being attracted to another man whether sex is involved or not. I dont think that definition is really specific enough - the imprinting of sexual abuse was never considered in that case. Gay mens head will literaly swivel as a hot guy walks by. No hiding that attraction - that's how a friend of mines sister knew he was gay after a beach vacation - can you say wet speedo!


3. The emotional ROMANTIC connection men desire with other men is by definition gay. They is what they is. Many gay men are frustrated that they cannot seem to find men willing to make a connection so they dis the whole gay community, rather than look inward. I have a gay friend who says there are no decent men in this town. I live in vancouver - there are homos galor!. The gay parade has swishers, nancy boys, cops, bankers and hypermasculine muscle men (god i love the bears- not "da bears" chicago football fan types sorry), trannies, dykes on bikes, poofters, woofters and geriatrics. All 'GAY' but so completely different. All knowing that where ever they are in the spectrum, str8 they ain't. So 1 + 2+ 3= gay, but so does 2+3.

Many men desire an emotional connection with another man. Comradery. Many former pro hockey players join the fire dept. There they work, eat and sleep together. Shower, work-out, sweat. Sounds pretty gay. Nope. Belonging to a tribe! We as abused men were either excluded from the tribe cuz of perceived difference or we excluded ourselves cuz we felt we didn't measure up, even though we longed for the ease of attachment. The is what CSA does, fuck up your attachment abilities on all personal fronts. I remember having to ride to work with some men as a teenager. It was a blue collar job and we were crammed in a truck. I could barely breath cuz there were men with their legs touching mine all the way to the jobsite. They thought nothing of it. Me I couldnt cope. I am lucky now tho, I have a couple of buds, we shoot the shit - nothing more. Hugs all round.

Not quite done. But it does not mean a man cannot also be attracted to, have sex with and desire and emotional connection to a woman. Again not gay exclusively but bi. There is likely a tipping of the scales more in one direction but the attraction to both exists. So Eric you could be less died in the wool pure gay than you thought. My buddy who identifies as gay, never had sex with a woman yet finds big breasts appealing - he was breast fed, is he re-enacting a pattern from the past , who knows? I was never breast fed so I feel no attraction to breasts, or is it cuz i am gay? Cant really say , can just accept it or ruminate that if only i had been breast fed at least i could have that attraction then maybe an affiation or even hankering for vast tracks of gland. I will never know.

So while I have tried to parse out the crazy particulars, I do it in a light hearted spirit not to make light of a very serious issue that causes so many so much grief, me included. But to point out that levity, humour and sometimes a little tongue in cheek (or where ever you want it - like madona says express yourself) helps keep perspective. We are all here, we are all healing( albeit on different tragectories) and damn it we are ALL capable of love.

I am almost sure( not) that this will be the last word.

PS, Ed from ny, I am so greatful to you for sharing the information about your therapist at 24 and really pissed off about what douche the guy was. It explains a lot. ((((Ed)))).
Eric your connection and then revulsion of your perp, taking one of the team is a common thread. It was what was absolutely heroic about your situation. You did the absolutely best thing you could have done with the tools and skills to cope with you had at the time. You will not accept that cuz there is a twinge of guilt for liking part of it. Thats ok, again your body is preprogrammed to respond to touch, attention and orgasm. You are not spock. But you did sacrafice the one for the many. YOu deserve a medal of honor!



Edited by 1lifenow (02/08/12 11:57 AM)
_________________________
The need for love lies at the very foundation of human existence. Dalai Lama

WoR Barrie 2011

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#384863 - 02/08/12 07:57 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: 1lifenow]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2574
Quote:
1. Men having sex with men : Gay or not gay?
Trick question, its both and in both cases having sex with a man is a CHOICE. As adults, we chose to have sex with a man. My previously homophobic brother said it was an aquired taste but I degress.

2. Men having attraction to another man : Gay or not gay?
its both, did not fool you i bet. But in this case it is NOT A CHOICE.

3. Men having a desire for an emotional connection with another man. Gay or not gay? Gay and also not a choice.


I agree with your first two points, but not the 3rd. Straight men have a desire to have a connection with other men as well. I'd say 3 falls into your "both" category as well. Straight men want time to hang out with the guys and there is an emotional element to it.

Unless of course by emotional you mean emotional as in "romantic". Then I can see the yes of it.

Hopefully at some point today I'll find time to put more of my thoughts and feelings together on this.


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#384867 - 02/08/12 08:12 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Bradley P]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: Bradley P
....So, I guess you could say there is a level of same sex attraction that isn't in any way scary. But sex itself is something I can't do (i'm a virgin by the way) or think about with a guy without it feeling like abuse.


bradley, eric, 1lifenow -- i think what you all wrote overnight is absolutely stunning.

to that pulled quote above, yes, i was looking in that direction as a way for guys to analyze the perceived burden of this topic.

i realize each of our episodes were different, but can you all reach back and determine when the seed was planted so to speak?

for me it was absolute from 2 p.m. on dec. 26, 1978 to 4 p.m. that same day. up until that point -- sharing a bed with a friend, even at 14, was normal, showering at the school gym with buds - nothing strange. slapping each other's naked butt, grabbing each other's nipple, comparing dick sizes -- all fun and games.

so what happens after rape? who tried to understand, after that christmas break, why i ditched p.e. forever more...you all here know the answer of course. (school nurse said i was just being rebellious.) why did my male friends suddenly think i was a snob for shutting them out and not participating in sleep overs anymore?

who else was suddenly pee-shy, oversensitive to male touch (i.e. anything we could do to avoid it was our goal), even go so far as to avoid birthday parties because when the adults leave -- the teenage boy conversation turns to "girls" and which ones we'd like to plug.... the list goes on.

but "at that stage" being 15, raped, silent -- were all those reactions from same-sex attraction? or "fear" that they, adults and pals alike, would find out what "i did" with the rapist?

that fear, at least for me, at the most pivotal point in sexual development was very misguided...for i assumed "now i'm gay" because the rape was from a man. i didn't have the capacity to see then that i'd been primed for two years by a pedophile. not gay. just a crime.

_________________________
Jeff

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#384869 - 02/08/12 08:59 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: westchesterguy]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2574
As I start this... part of me wants to flee the whole subject, delete what I've already put before and avoid it altogether. Part of that is certainly past experience with dealing with threads on this same topic and how just like the one person commented... it usually gets crazy and gets shut-down in no time. To be honest I'm surprised it's still going and it's still mostly civil and controlled.

Anyway, I needed to share that just to get myself to a place to be comfortable enough to begin.

I've already shared a bit about how at times I just want to be used. From the learning and digging and healing work that I've done I'm very sure that is most assuredly tied to the CSA, but for me there are even more levels to it than just that due to other experiences in my life.

The next one deals with an unfulfilled emotional need. My father and I were never close. My father experienced physical and emotional abuse as a child and he decided he was never going to do that to his children, so he swung completley the other way and was distant and non-involved. For a long time, especially when I first started digging through all this, I think this issue is what led me to identify myself as "bi" for a period of time. As I learned more and dug into feeling etc, I've learned that's not the case. I feel a deep need to be loved, by a man. It took me quite some time to work it all out, probalby years in fact, but I can identify one point in time for sure that I experienced something that for a brief time met that need. I want to be held. I want to feel safe. Secure. Loved. Cherished. The one moment in my life, where that need was met, was right after I shared with my parents about the CSA I had experienced as a child. On that day, I sat on a couch in my parents house, and my father put his arms around me and pulled me close to him, and just held me.

While I find those feelings can easily get confused and mixed up, especially in the face of CSA, I know those feelings are neither straight or gay. It is simply deep longing of every little boy to be held and loved and accepted by his daddy. That's what I felt on that day when my father held me. It was later that I finally made the connection to those emotional needs inside me. Every other hug from my dad as a child was awkward. He was so very distant and un-connected to any of us. It was a huge vaccum of emotional neglect. I'm happy my father really changed and opened up during his last years. My sister benefitted from that, and I am so envious of her for it, as I lived too far away to get close to my dad. Damn it I miss him so much, and yet I spent so much time angry and him and my mother.

So compound all that, the emotional neglect, and the CSA, I was always an unwelcome outsider my whole life. In school I never fit in. Never belonged. Always on the outside. I had nothing in common with the other boys, but I wanted to be like them. Wanted to be around them and play the same games they played. I was awkward and totally un-athletic. I was smart, but grew up during the height of the "smart is stupid and uncool" etc. Sure bullying the smart kids still happens, but from what I've seen in my sons school, more and more kids are actually trying to do well.

So I was always alone. Watching from the outside looking in. So the acceptance I did find was from those that used me.

So take then:
The longing to be held and loved by dad.
The anguished pain of wanting to fit in and be accepted.
The confusion of "sex" means they actually like and care about me and accept me....

And you've got one messed up, confused guy.

So when that desire to be used kicks in, underlying it are all the bits and pieces of all those issues, and it manifests itself in the subconcious thought of: "I want to be loved, I want to be accepted, and if your f**king me, maybe I am wanted and loved."

At the end of the day though, I'm attracted to the woman I'm married to. She's not a super model, but I find her beautiful, not just physically, but she's smart and quirky too. I like quirky. And when I manage to overcome all the anxiety I have and just lay near to her, it feels wonderful.

My father is dead. So I don't know how I can fix that hole. I still haven't figured out how to fit in with other men, so maybe I'll never get that one either. And yes, I still struggle with the whole sex/love thing too.


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#384870 - 02/08/12 09:08 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: JustScott]
Anthony39 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 345
Loc: Montreal, Canada
nicely put Scott. I share a lot of what you feel too. Doesn't make it clearer or easier but at least there is some common ground. Feel a little less crazy.
Thanks man.
Anthony

_________________________
Look up and not down; look forward and not back; look out and not in; and lend a hand.
E. E. Hale


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM213aMKTHg

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#384890 - 02/08/12 10:59 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: JustScott]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1307
(((scott)))

Your perspective really opens a window for me - a lot of insights. I don't know if any of us will get through the wicket. Sometimes tracing our feelings and motivations is like undoing a hopelessly knotted ball of string. But maybe even if we can't unravel it - if we can't make it right - perhaps merely understanding some of the loops is enough...

What I connected with in your story was the attachment to your father. I once read a movie review on "Field of Dreams" in which the reviewer was warning spouses and girlfriends that it was the one movie pretty much guaranteed to make their man cry by the end. That unique and special connection most of us have with our fathers (and I am saying this with due respect to those who have had issues in this area) goes incredibly deep.

Has anyone here read Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness (Marlon Brando's character in Apocalypse Now was based on Kurtz)? Sometimes I wonder if the darkness of being molested was so overwhelming that the only way I could assimilate it was to make a friend of it. As Kurtz exclaimed in the last moments of his life, realizing he had descended into the depths of depravity, "The horror, the horror."

And Brando's character mentioned the little arms the villagers hacked off their children after the GI's vaccinated them. Expressing his agony at seeing a pile of little arms, he relates his sudden epiphany - the realization of why his foe was so formidable. "The brilliance, the power, the mastery - to make a friend of that which you fear the most. To embrace it." Like embracing SSA???

_________________________



Click my pic to see why I'm here

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#384894 - 02/08/12 11:06 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Chase Eric]
traveler Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 3373
Loc: somewhere in Africa
Chase Eric -

***Sometimes I wonder if the darkness of being molested was so overwhelming that the only way I could assimilate it was to make a friend of it.***

This speaks volumes to me. It has the unmistakable ring of TRUTH.

Lee

_________________________
As my life goes on I believe somehow something's changed
Something deep inside...
I've been searchin so long to find an answer
Now I know my life has meaning
Now I see myself as I am, feeling very free...
When my tears have come to an end I will understand
What I left behind: a part of me. Chicago


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#384902 - 02/08/12 12:13 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: JustScott]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: JustScott
.... I still haven't figured out how to fit in with other men, so maybe I'll never get that one either. And yes, I still struggle with the whole sex/love thing too.


justscott, in my view, that is an important statement to make, and left unresolved -- it is my greatest issue with the ''male survivor movement'' this day.

we recover.

no followup.

no future.

say "so long" to fellow survivors in that weekly group that was more important than god. bye-bye to therapist. they hold the ticker tape parade and we head into the sunset a fixed man.

in my experience.... it wasn't true as i sailed into the sunset in 1991. nor is it true today when "the solution" is hanging out here - anonymously, virtually, in a bloody cloud no one can define or see.

justscott - and others - since we only give our opinions here, i would hope you and a fellow survivor in your town who "gets this" can meet in person, become each others support, best friends even, or just a mentor -- and he can help you learn how to "fit in with other men." or you learn together simply with mutual encouragement while exploring these important nuances of recovery together.

just my 2cents as it were... but in my very old fashioned view nothing has and nothing ever will replace face2face. :-)

_________________________
Jeff

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#384904 - 02/08/12 12:20 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: JustScott]
Castle Offline


Registered: 10/03/09
Posts: 727
Loc: NJ
i also agree that #3 is off base.....Men looking to have a emotional connection and bond with another man..in a non sexual way...is not gay. It is SO important to have these bonds..all to often men dont, but it is truley amazing when you cna get together with a bunch of men and just be connected and have love ect....Nothing to do with romance and or sex and or being gay.

Originally Posted By: JustScott
Quote:
1. Men having sex with men : Gay or not gay?
Trick question, its both and in both cases having sex with a man is a CHOICE. As adults, we chose to have sex with a man. My previously homophobic brother said it was an aquired taste but I degress.

2. Men having attraction to another man : Gay or not gay?
its both, did not fool you i bet. But in this case it is NOT A CHOICE.

3. Men having a desire for an emotional connection with another man. Gay or not gay? Gay and also not a choice.


I agree with your first two points, but not the 3rd. Straight men have a desire to have a connection with other men as well. I'd say 3 falls into your "both" category as well. Straight men want time to hang out with the guys and there is an emotional element to it.

Unless of course by emotional you mean emotional as in "romantic". Then I can see the yes of it.

Hopefully at some point today I'll find time to put more of my thoughts and feelings together on this.


_________________________

My posts can self destruct at any time..read them while you can.

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#384905 - 02/08/12 12:25 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Castle]
Castle Offline


Registered: 10/03/09
Posts: 727
Loc: NJ
I alos agree that we must have some face 2 face time with other survivors...its crutial to recovery...i also dont believe we just recover and were done...doesnt work that way.

personally I made some really great bonds at MS, that has moved into real friendships with people I see and talk with...we are scattered but in contact and meet as often as we can. It can and does happen but takes work, a bunch of really hard work to be a part of somebodys life and be support and be supported....It takes a certain amount of vulnerability in other men that you cna talk to them about the real things and get support understanding and a convesation. Its truely amazing and a game changer.

just my opinion, and experience.

_________________________

My posts can self destruct at any time..read them while you can.

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#384907 - 02/08/12 12:30 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: westchesterguy]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2574
Quote:
justscott - and others - since we only give our opinions here, i would hope you and a fellow survivor in your town who "gets this" can meet in person, become each others support, best friends even, or just a mentor -- and he can help you learn how to "fit in with other men." or you learn together simply with mutual encouragement while exploring these important nuances of recovery together.


There there is 2 cents I wish I had. I agree 100%, yet where I am, I'm utterly alone in this journey, aside from this forum and a few people I communicate with long distance via email, text and PM. It's lonely, and it sucks, especially for someone who struggles to connect with people right there in front of me... Connecting online is something that is utterly alien. I just don't ever feel it.


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#384913 - 02/08/12 01:22 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Castle]
1lifenow Offline


Registered: 03/07/11
Posts: 398
Loc: west coast
Originally Posted By: Castle
Its truely amazing and a game changer.

just my opinion, and experience.


I agree with you castle and just scott re: the emotional attachment. I went back and modified my post. I took the definition from a psych book. I implied ROMANTIC emotional attachment when i wrote it but , of course your are right, emotional on its own is too vague a term.

Also I agree , if it was not for the bond i now have with other CSA survivors , here , at the WoR and my weekly MS group in my city, that i like you would not have been able to experience a real "game changer".

_________________________
The need for love lies at the very foundation of human existence. Dalai Lama

WoR Barrie 2011

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#384941 - 02/08/12 04:11 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: 1lifenow]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
this is an interesting outcome.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/cutline/cnn-...-195422269.html

i also think the response kind of shows where people are at out there in the scary world.

curious to me, as a so-called gay guy, how the gay community concluded on my behalf that this man should be fired.

i laughed at the twits this guy typed and as usual - am not pleased glaad thinks they represent me or my definition of what is ''gay bashing.''

if i had been in the room with roland as he commented on that gay h&m ad for underwear, i'd have said to him "jealous! you couldn't look that hot no matter what you tried."

we'd have moved on and continued watching the game....

maybe i am the nutty one for not being offended. who knows? or just maybe i've experienced real gay bashing --too many times-- and found that when you need help - no one will come.

_________________________
Jeff

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#385044 - 02/09/12 11:04 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: westchesterguy]
Bradley P Offline


Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 44
Loc: AR
ChaseEric, I think that what you refer to (accepting your "SSA" and embracing it) is really bisexuality. Let me explain.

SSA is not bisexuality; if you can have relationships beyond the abusive/sexual type with the same gender, those are genuine romantic/sexual attractions. I have tried to "accept" my SSA and act out...I've opened chat windows with guys, I've been in situations where I was hit on by guys I felt some attraction for...I just can't do it. I can't...I don't want to, I feel, most of the time, absolutely nothing and if anything, I feel like what I described in my post: like a little boy getting beat up. Luckily, I've felt that with mild caresses; I haven't had to go through with a sex act or anything physical to discover that.

Still, internally, it's a hell that I wouldn't wish on anybody.

_________________________
"Life is for living, we all know...but I don't want to live it alone"-Chris Martin (Coldplay)

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#385152 - 02/10/12 09:45 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: westchesterguy]
tom1234 Offline


Registered: 02/01/12
Posts: 4
Hi I was abuse from the age of 6 to 13 and Im in mid forty AND Im haveing a hard time tring to deal with my sexuality orientation is this nomal with this I feel sad hopeless will I ever get throw this . I need some in put. thank you Tom1970


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#385155 - 02/10/12 10:41 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: tom1234]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1307
Originally Posted By: Tom
Hi I was abuse from the age of 6 to 13 and Im in mid forty AND Im haveing a hard time tring to deal with my sexuality orientation is this nomal with this I feel sad hopeless will I ever get throw this . I need some in put. thank you

Well, Tom - you've come to the right place, and probably even to the right thread. The whole question of SSA and the factors that influence or drive sexual orientation are almost hopelessly confusing at the least. The paradox is this - the sexual identity confusion serves more to highlight the magnitude of the effects of CSA than it does to characterize who we really are...

Ultimately, we may never figure this one out. What I have read from those who are adamant that they suffer SSA but "know" they are not "gay" reminds me that I was once there as well. Maybe they'll figure it out. I couldn't - and while I was completely convinced I was straight and hated the SSA drive within me, nothing I did even remotely "tipped the scales" in favor of developing normal opposite-sex urges free of SSA.

After years of relentless effort, I realize now that I might as well have been throwing water at the sun to cool it down. It's always there - it never goes away. Call it whatever you want - imprinting, SSA, gay - whatever label makes you feel better about it, I guess. No matter how I framed it, characterized it, described it, derided it, displayed it, acted on it, acted against it, denied it - in the end, there it was. Not even a dent.

I eventually tried a different approach and it seems to have worked better for me. I redefined who the enemy was. Perhaps it wasn't SSA, but rather my abuser. Perhaps it was not my sexuality, but rather my perpetual lack of inner peace.

The greatest irony? I was perpetuating for years the very stigma I feared. At 12 or 13, I'm thinking, "What would people think if they found out I am doing that with him?" And my whole life ever after has been for those ghosts I feared - those undefined judges on the sidelines of my life. And the biggest waste of all? I lived my life for them - demanding of myself a conformity to "normal" instead of accepting and embracing who I had to become.

SSA? Gay? They all have one common denominator. No - it's not about sex. The common core that unites us all is that we became who we are because we adapted, we survived. SSA means I survived. Gay means I survived. I'm tattered, bruised, banged up from the fall. But I picked myself up, brushed off the dirt. I'm limping. But I'm moving on.

Whoever you are, Tom, whatever your feelings about yourself, however strong your desire to change - that's all fine. Go for it. Become the person you truly want to be. But don't waste your time becoming the person you think OTHERS want you to be. Because that's precisely what our abusers made us do. Don't perpetuate it, or you become an eternal memorial to his dirty work. Own your OWN life, take it back from the ghosts of disapproval (who really don't exist anyways), celebrate your differences instead of recoiling from them. Don't discard yourself, dismiss yourself, judge yourself by anyone else's standard except your own.

_________________________



Click my pic to see why I'm here

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#385159 - 02/10/12 11:01 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Chase Eric]
Bradley P Offline


Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 44
Loc: AR
Okay not to be contentious, but it's still like the common thing that is preached is to "accept who you are" like those who don't identify gay but have SSA are in denial.

What if you have really, genuinely tried to act on it, but we're unable? What if it's ALL internal? What if you aren't ever really attracted to real live same gender people on the street? What if it's all episodic splurges into the realm of porn triggered by horrible feelings/abuse memories, etc...? What if you are legitimately attracted to the opposite sex...like FOR REAL?? And then, what if (like me) your abuse history includes BOTH sexes, so it's likely that I may end up a virgin for life??

I'm sorry...but look, it's not as simple as "accept it" for some people. Accept what exactly??? Pick one from the list I just created above.

I would argue that if you never experience opposite sex attraction, if you only experienced "SSA," and you simply weren't acting on it because of constraints like society, rejection, even religion, then yeah, you might be gay. But then some people don't have romantic/ lovey-dovey attractions for the same sex...just strong sexual urges. Some people have love-dovey feelings for women, but lack sexual urges for them, but have intense sexual urges for men. I'd call that bi-sexual maybe?? Who the f**k knows man. But the point is, it's not denial for folks if they are honestly trying to figure this crap out in honesty and truth. Frick man, we're all here because of SEXUAL ABUSE...that's abuse of sex...so for the love of God, sex and everything tied around it is GOING to be confusing as f**k for most of us here.

It's not denial, it's a journey. And wherever that journey leads is hopefully better than the in-between many of us feel right now.

_________________________
"Life is for living, we all know...but I don't want to live it alone"-Chris Martin (Coldplay)

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#385168 - 02/10/12 12:18 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Bradley P]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1307
Originally Posted By: Bradley
it's still like the common thing that is preached is to "accept who you are" like those who don't identify gay but have SSA are in denial.

Thank you, Bradley. Actually, I never actually said that. And please note I was VERY careful to couch my words in terms of MY experience (I used "I" throughout). I specifically did not extrapolate my personal journey as having meaning applicable to anyone else but me. If it came across as preachy, I do apologize. I cannot apologize for sharing, however, since that is what we are all here to do. Still, I took out my last comment - just so it would not be misinterpreted.

Originally Posted By: Bradely
I'm sorry...but look, it's not as simple as "accept it" for some people. Accept what exactly???

I should have been more clear about this, and thank you for challenging me to make it so. Again, I never said "accept it" but will accept your paraphrased summation as your interpretation - and so it deserves address. If you interpret anything I have said as "I have to accept that my SSA probably means that I am Gay", that is entirely off base. If anything I said came across that way, that was not my intention. My perspective should be read more like, "Whatever these feelings are - SSA, Gay - whatever - they are real, they are confusing, and perhaps they are even undesired, and I'll try to sort them out. But I will not fight myself or judge myself in the process." Seemingly subtle difference from "accepting" the feelings? It's not. I suppose you could say I'm talking about accepting oneself on a fundamental level - as a platform from which to do the work of figuring everything else out.

I suppose it's like being riddled with cancer? You can love the patient and still hate the disease. SSA - from what I understand - seems like a cancer of one's sexual identity. I would imagine that makes it particularly unresectable since the the "disease" and the "self" are so fundamentally interwoven. For ME - well, that lead to a lot of self-loathing that spilled over into every area of my life. So when I say (in essence) "accept yourself", I fully mean to respect that nuance.

Originally Posted By: Bradley
I would argue that if you never experience opposite sex attraction, if you only experienced "SSA," and you simply weren't acting on it because of constraints like society, rejection, even religion, then yeah, you might be gay. But then some people don't have romantic/ lovey-dovey attractions for the same sex...just strong sexual urges. Some people have love-dovey feelings for women, but lack sexual urges for them, but have intense sexual urges for men. I'd call that bi-sexual maybe?? Who the f**k knows man. But the point is, it's not denial for folks if they are honestly trying to figure this crap out in honesty and truth. Frick man, we're all here because of SEXUAL ABUSE...that's abuse of sex...so for the love of God, sex and everything tied around it is GOING to be confusing as f**k for most of us here.

It's not denial, it's a journey. And wherever that journey leads is hopefully better than the in-between many of us feel right now.

Glad to see that - even though our way of expressing these points are quite different - we are saying essentially the same thing. smile

_________________________



Click my pic to see why I'm here

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#385171 - 02/10/12 12:37 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Bradley P]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: Bradley P
...And then, what if (like me) your abuse history includes BOTH sexes, so it's likely that I may end up a virgin for life??


i have asked this before, not of you bradley but of others, why would someone consider that whatever happened before - is somehow dictating what happens forevermore?

i'm an optimist on this front. i think sexual abuse places us on a roundabout (think pl. charles de gaulle in paris) driving round and round and round -- yet we have numerous turn-offs for which to take out of that circle, but we can't see them --- for our choice is keep the arc de triomphe in view, on the immediate left.

i believe that with proper training through healthy therapy, everyone overcomes and moves forward, leaves that roundabout with a right-hand turn to drive freely and without restraint through the winding streets ahead - in order to take on the oh-so-numerous problems life has waiting. yeah, i know, a lot of hidden meanings there - in my humble view someone still in therapy (roundabout) with the same therapist 10 years on etc... should really be rethinking what is going on. smile change course, fire the therapist or put the recovery process on hold if he isn't ready.

but in this, i really see the greatest outcome of "free male sexuality" i.e. a man who is "comfortable with himself," won't allow society's labels to get in the way of experiencing life. and, in my view, that is not about porn or an ability to recognize a hot guy or girl on the street. on the contrary...i think free male sexuality is not even about physical attraction. it can perhaps be total abstinence, it could be the most deeply romantic 15-yr fulfilling relationship with a guy. or a girl. and that ends only to find an equally fulfilling relationship with a girl. or a guy.

growing close to someone (no matter which gender), which if intimacy develops into something more passionate that both parties respect, nurture and want to share -- to me that is the pinnacle of life. i don't see it happens very often. it has happened for me only twice. i think 99% of all guys we meet in life won't fit that opportunity... maybe 90% of all girls won't fit either. don't know, just saying.

_________________________
Jeff

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#385172 - 02/10/12 12:48 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: westchesterguy]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1307
Originally Posted By: westchesterguy
i have asked this before, not of you bradley but of others, why would someone consider that whatever happened before - is somehow dictating what happens forevermore?

WCG - could I ask how old you were when your abuse occurred?

_________________________



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#385178 - 02/10/12 01:31 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Chase Eric]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: Chase Eric
Originally Posted By: westchesterguy
i have asked this before, not of you bradley but of others, why would someone consider that whatever happened before - is somehow dictating what happens forevermore?

WCG - could I ask how old you were when your abuse occurred?


15

_________________________
Jeff

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#385179 - 02/10/12 01:38 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: tom1234]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1181
Loc: New York
Peace,Rainbows & Healing


Edited by lapchinj (03/16/13 11:19 PM)
_________________________
Stick around, It will get better....

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#385182 - 02/10/12 02:17 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: lapchinj]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1181
Loc: New York
Peace,Rainbows & Healing


Edited by lapchinj (03/16/13 11:21 PM)
_________________________
Stick around, It will get better....

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#385183 - 02/10/12 02:39 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: lapchinj]
Bradley P Offline


Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 44
Loc: AR
CE, I apologize for coming off as addressing you, I was just kinda ranting lol. I think you cleared your point up beautifully in your last post.

WC, I have been in therapy (loosely) for about 13 years, off and on. I'm 28 now. I started in therapy because of clinical OCD/depression. I didn't start talking about sexuality till maybe a couple months into the sessions. I was extremely confused at this time as to my sexuality. I had discovered porn at 11. I was shown porn when I was about 5 years old, but at 11 it was gay porn I found. Back then, lots of my talk was about religion/faith/God issues. Fast forward to like, 18-20 ish years old, I didnt' see my T much at all, probably once every other month maybe.

Then around 20-23, talk was about friendships, girls, and brief mentions of possible abuse in my past. I didn't even know if I was abused or not. So, still, mostly surface stuff. At this point, I was starting to feel some sexual feelings for girls and was confused some more about sexuality. These were the first feelings I had for girls since I was in elementary school and chased them around the playground.

Then, 24-26. I hit a bad low...started experiencing heavy PTSD-like symptoms (nightmares, panic attacks, anxiety) gay porn use became very addictive, yet sporadic (like once every few months or so). I was very depressed. It was only at this point I began to open up more about stuff from my childhood that was clearly abuse.

27-now. Dated two girls. Neither lasted longer than a month. Never had a girlfriend before. Felt intense, strong sexual attraction to both girls. The first girl was almost purely physical attraction, the second was both physical and emotional. Both girls dumped me without notice. Hit a low. Started looking at gay porn, tried to "accept it," and found that it was an impossibility, so I stopped again.

So now, in therapy, I'm still finding new, untalked about areas of my past and childhood that I still hadn't dealt with. Why am I not married and with a family and having sex all the time at 28? I don't know yet. Why am I not having lots and lots of sex as a single male 28 year old? Well, not sure exactly. Still have LOTS of work to go. I guess we don't all heal quickly, and I guess I have to be okay with that somehow. Still trying to figure it all out.

_________________________
"Life is for living, we all know...but I don't want to live it alone"-Chris Martin (Coldplay)

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#385185 - 02/10/12 03:02 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: lapchinj]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: lapchinj
...That aside WCG, you make it sound so easy to recover.


well, hard to comment on that observation lapchin. is it any easier or harder for any of us? :-) i think it is just different.

it is occurring to me, however, more and more in reading posts here to question the quality of therapy out there right now.

i've never had a bad therapist. i don't say my final two therapists (one for individual and one for group) were running as candidates for the nobel prize...but they were excellent. they knew their craft and they were passionate about their jobs. the guy (group) was a male survivor the woman (my primary) was a specialist in sexual identity crisis. so, i do assume --whether right or wrong-- guys here are 1.) "demanding" the same level of service from their therapists that i did and 2) getting the best service from their therapists on all issues related to sexual abuse, sexual identity, sexual happiness, and surviving life as adults.

maybe i was lucky in that respect. but something tells me not one of you here would rather be in my shoes... even recovered. smile keep going. demand more. be the biggest son of a bitch the psychological profession has ever seen! you are worth it.


_________________________
Jeff

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#385187 - 02/10/12 04:21 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: westchesterguy]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1181
Loc: New York
Peace,Rainbows & Healing


Edited by lapchinj (03/16/13 11:21 PM)
_________________________
Stick around, It will get better....

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#385195 - 02/10/12 05:50 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: lapchinj]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: lapchinj
.... therapy goes on for months before someone see that this therapist is not helping any.


in a way - i think this branch of discussion is still on topic. especially since reading what edinnyc wrote few pages back. that therapist should be barred from practicing in my view.

nonetheless, i think all one needs is "two sessions max" to know if the therapist will work out. i, for one, do not buy into "first impressions." goes for friends as well. maybe i should be volunteering to screen everyone's therapist. :-)

one doesn't have to "like" the therapist, right? this is a business decision. are you going to buy stock that you know will be worth half its value in 10 years? no, then why invest in the talents of someone who can't be training you to be self sufficient in 3 or 5 years?

twice a week $200 a session = $20,800 a year. that return had better be priceless.

you buy a therapist's talent and expertise - you don't buy their friendship or sympathy or anything else. smiles and tears don't count. willingness to learn does though - and this organization has leaders who are willing to train therapists anywhere in order to help male survivors. so, in my view, there are no excuses for a therapist in 2012 to not know how to train you in the recovery process.

that being said: the harder part is really up to us, right?

TRUSTING the recovery process is perhaps the biggest most challenging task in one's life. more than marriage. more than believing in god, more than raising children and balancing a career... in my view.


how much does one want to change? how much work is one really willing to put into that effort? dudes - i know when i "meet someone" whether he is serious about his desire to fight and recover. it is that obvious! if i can tell, i'm sure therapists can! i'm sure one's boss can if he is smart. when one enters and commits to recover -- is he fully understanding that "if i trust the process" my life will be forever changed?

major issues - examples:
no, the process won't make life painless
no, the process will not fix a laundry list of issues
no, the process won't change anything from the past
no, the process won't make one straight or gay
yes, one may come to believe there is no god
yes, one may find he is gay - or straight
yes, one may find out he shouldn't be married anymore
yes, one may find he is really and truly alone for the first time in his life...other than the therapist who sees the change.

you get the point. a professional therapist (who knows what he is doing) will enable the recovery process inside of you to open doors, remove toxins (i.e. family and bad friends/influencers), and get off that roundabout.

the process empowers us to make that right-hand turn. it changes what we know "today" if one doesn't fear those changes, in my view. and "the process" of recovery itself becomes much easier.

the process can result in the reward of joy and happiness when we use it to find internal peace, set priorities and base our actions upon healthy decisions. that is why i have said all along in this thread - it doesn't bloody matter if you are attracted to another guy. smile what matters is that the attraction is, first, healthy, and secondly, that it could flourish into something special and mutually fulfilling.

_________________________
Jeff

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#385309 - 02/11/12 01:21 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: westchesterguy]
Undiagnosed Offline


Registered: 02/11/12
Posts: 19
Loc: Florida Parishes, Louisiana
I think it comes back to the question, "Did my abuse make me gay?" In many people's minds this is still a relevant question because few people would 'choose' to be gay.

In my own case, I'm not sure. I was married to a woman for 20 years and tried to be straight, but gay won out in the end. I find myself more attracted to the PERSONALITIES of men than of women. If anyone thinks I am gay because I'm reliving my abuse, or trying to perpetuate my abuse on others, they couldn't be more wrong. If anything, my abuse by men should have turned me away from men.

Sexually I am attracted to men more than women as well, but I think that's more because of my familiarity with men's bodies and what pleasures them. Sadly, I've never met a woman who was as uninhibited about sex as many of the men I've known. With a guy, I know exactly what to do, but with women I'm not so sure.

That being said, I would love a relationship with another person, male or female. A healthy, productive, fun and sexy relationship that's good for us both. I've been in relationships with men and women in the past, and haven't found the right one yet. Oddly, my therapist once jokingly suggested that I might be one of the rarest of psycho-sexual types; a straight man trapped on a gay man's body! I have no idea if I choose to be gay or if I was born that way or if I was turned gay by my abusers. Turns out it doesn't really matter; I've got bigger problems to deal with than that...

_________________________
IMHO - Ricky

P.S. Opinions are like assholes; everybody has one and most of them stink.

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#385311 - 02/11/12 01:34 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Undiagnosed]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: Undiagnosed
...A healthy, productive, fun and sexy relationship that's good for us both.


refreshing to read that sentence.

as for the question "did my abuse make me gay?" aren't therapists explaining to their patients this was a myth and has been disproved?

_________________________
Jeff

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#385407 - 02/12/12 02:02 AM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: westchesterguy]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1181
Loc: New York
Peace,Rainbows & Healing


Edited by lapchinj (03/16/13 11:22 PM)
_________________________
Stick around, It will get better....

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#463157 - 03/25/14 03:25 PM Re: SSA or Gay... [Re: Chase Eric]
jas4159 Offline


Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 278
i think the csa abuse has little to do with sexual orientation. it is an act of opportunity and violence. i also struggled with confused feelings of sexuality. but in the end i did not see myself as gay - just a kid who was groomed and brainwashed into believing things about myself that were not true.
_________________________
Thanks

rich

justanothersurvivror.wordpress.com

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