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#383820 - 01/30/12 12:26 AM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Still]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1166
Loc: New York
Peace,Rainbows & Healing


Edited by lapchinj (03/17/13 11:31 PM)
_________________________
Forgiveness is giving up on the hope that what the past was could have been any different or better.
It's accepting the past for what it was, and using this moment and this time to help yourself move forward.

It will get better....

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#383849 - 01/30/12 12:05 PM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: lapchinj]
Riley Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/11/09
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
Personally, I think it comes down to science. Why do some people come back from combat with relatively few effects and others come back with PTSD. I don't think it's right to rate abuse, abuse is abuse period. What's different between people is their brain.

I read somewhere (can't find the article now) that it may have to do with our natural levels of cortisol (the chemical that regulates stress). I read another that was studying genetics in relation to PTSD. Basically everybody is different and is effected differently. If you want I can give you access to a database of peer reviewed articles with a ton of information on it, just PM me.

If the perps really use the argument that some kids are not effected by it so they didn't do anything wrong then they are just crazy. You can compare it to firing a gun into a crowd. Not everyone will be injured but its still wrong because everyone in that crowd will be effected in one way or another. Some will be physically injured, some will be killed, and others will just deal with it in their own heads.


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#383922 - 01/31/12 09:27 AM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Riley]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1166
Loc: New York
Peace,Rainbows & Healing


Edited by lapchinj (03/17/13 11:31 PM)
_________________________
Forgiveness is giving up on the hope that what the past was could have been any different or better.
It's accepting the past for what it was, and using this moment and this time to help yourself move forward.

It will get better....

Top
#445202 - 08/23/13 12:43 AM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Still]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3018
Loc: O Kanada
"I look at the upper-left and only see 9500 members.
Simple math says there's millions."

Still, i have often wondered this myself.

probably, many never disclose, and spiral into drugs, despair, depression, danger and death.

maybe there are some that are 100% successful at denial, or suppression of memory.

i can't even figure out why i reacted the way i did, and continue to do so.

being violently raped by a serial killer should be about 8 or 9 on the "richter scale" and yet by the time that happened, i had been abused and neglected so much for so long, that it barely registered.
i think i can hardly feel anything anymore.
i am extremely hard on myself.
this makes it very difficult to relate to other survivors.

sometimes it bothered me during group therapy when i had to listen to some guy who is constantly in a state of self pity and misery, week after week, whining, depressed, and resistant to solid proven recovery techniques... when i know that person has only been fondled once... that is... no violence, no incest, no threats, no repetition, no penetration...

but there is a real danger when one attempts to compare experiences.
we are all designed differently by DNA.

i have lived through things that no person should even have to witness. stuff that could not even be properly depicted in a movie.

and yet... here i am... happier than i deserve to be.

i guess, i can't answer your question, still.
sorry.
_________________________
Victor|Victim

War
Love
Poetry

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#445217 - 08/23/13 03:16 AM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Still]
Onesimus75 Offline


Registered: 08/22/13
Posts: 158
Loc: Minnesota
I have no solid data on this. But I feel strongly that many more survivors have trauma than they ever admit.

But not all the trauma looks the same.

We're all differently able, in our own ways, and differently wounded.

But one of the differences is that the men who come to places like this, or get help elsewhere have the self-awareness and courage to face their demons rather than pretend there's nothing under the bed waiting to get them.

I think the difference is like the difference between the crimes reported and the crimes occurring.

Abused first at 11, then at 13, then at 16, and no one ever knew. All six of my siblings thought I was the 'virginal' one when I was acting out with my friends every time I could, so sure that they couldn't really want me around unless I was a lot older, or providing sexual favors.

So here I was living in trauma all the time, and no one saw it.

That was from 11 until about 30 or so when my T pointed out that I HAD the trauma, why not deal with it.

I only wish I had better words to encourage you that you're not worse, less, or weaker than any of those others. You're more aware, and honest, and that means more healing than all the guys who can't face it, bury it, hope it goes away.

(Don't we all know how well that works...)
_________________________
We are not defined by our faults, or our wounds, but by the truth within us, which nothing can take away.

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#445219 - 08/23/13 03:35 AM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Still]
Jacob S Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 591
I think about this when I see Scott Brown or Tyler Perry or my own abusers (who were also abused kids) all go on to have successful lives. I should be happy when I see a list like this http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=48465&Number=354274 but instead I just get mad. As awful as it sounds, my only hope is that they are secretly miserable. I know that sounds messed up . . . I want fellow victims to be miserable? Well, I could deny that but lets be dangerously honest for a second: yes I do. Because if so many people who went through this are ok and successful and I'm not, then it comes back to the idea that I really am the problem.

So am I just looking for an excuse to not heal? I don't think so. But I do wonder why I seem to be having such a rougher go of it. How can I call myself strong when other people are out there dealing with this and holding down six figure jobs at the same time? Yes we are all different. Yes we all struggle in different ways. But Still is absolutely right in the first post in this thread that it seems like so few of us react this way. Is there something wrong with me that I can't just put it as a footnote in my autobiography and move on?
_________________________
Like a spent gladiator
crawling in the colosseum dust
who can count on his remaining limbs
all the people he can trust.
Like the one who stands behind him
cheering him on
Estatic when he stands defiant,
wild with abandon when he's gone

just stay alive.
do whatever you need to.
you are worth it.

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#445222 - 08/23/13 03:59 AM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Jacob S]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3018
Loc: O Kanada
i totally get where you are coming from, JacobS!

i keep thinking that the problem lies with my lack of something.

even when i am happy, which i have been for many years, i still cannot escape the memories.

i wish that's all it was... a footnote!

but here i am, 40 years later, still dwelling on it.
the difference is... it does not seem to bother me.
what really bothers me is the fact that i will never be "normal".
that interferes with my ability to connect and communicate with friends and family.
i like who i am.
the problem is, others do not.
people who care about me are always telling me to get over it, move on, etc.
they do not see the damage, so they can't understand why i behave as if i am damaged.
i do not believe that the damage will ever be repaired to the point that i will completely restored to "normal".
i am suspicious and cautious, and i get labeled as paranoid.
i am stoic, and i get labeled as heartless.
when i urge restraint, i get labeled as control freak.
when i assert my boundaries, i am labeled a power tripper.
when i attempt to exercise my authority, i am called a terrorist.
and when i lose my temper... well, it ain't pretty.

whatever.
i still love everyone.
i just wish they would return the favour.
but i no longer expect it.
_________________________
Victor|Victim

War
Love
Poetry

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#445234 - 08/23/13 08:26 AM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Still]
SoccerStar Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 915
Loc: New York
By reading the crowd here at MS I've noticed two very strong trends:
1. The overwhelming majority of members here had unsafe home lives. Abusive / neglectful parents and caregivers.
2. Almost 100% without exception NOBODY HERE had quick disclosure / rescue / criminal resolution of the abuse. Either things went on for years, or they weren't believed, or the perp was never punished, or all of the above.

The lack of SAFETY and lack of JUSTICE combine to stew together a whole mess of emotional nitroglycerine. There must be victims out there who knew they were loved, who escaped quickly, were believed, and saw the entire legal system announce that they were Right and Good and the perp was Wrong and Bad, followed by prompt therapeutic intervention at an early age.

Don't get me wrong, I would not want to have the experience of Ben Ownby - kidnapped at gunpoint and sadistically raped 17 times in 4 days. But... he was then rescued, and saw the perp arrested and cuffed and sentenced, was scooped up by loving parents and a squadron of therapists, and cheered and encouraged by friends, neighbors, and distant supporters and well-wishers. That sense of justice and protection and validation, plus early intervention therapy, has to help.

And I don't know a single person at MS who experienced it.


If there are CSA situations in which the encounters are:
-Non-violent / non-painful / non-threatening
-Mutually pleasurable
-Not a forcible secret
-Mutually avoidable / end-able at any time

--then I could see many of the stereotypical aftereffects of abuse not taking hold. That doesn't mean it's not wrong, it means the biggest and worst avenues for wrongness to leave prolonged psychological damage have been removed. The relationship is inappropriate but might not be damaging.

I don't think it is the majority of cases. I'd say its more like one-tenth of one percent. But still, if you extrapolate the statistics globally, you end up with tens of thousands of men who should be "okay" with it. There are also very different gradients of "okay." I know two guys who do not identify as CSA victims yet both of them had experiences that fit on the scale. One of them had been 13 and a ragingly horny bisexual when, so he says, he seduced his dad's friend. Another was 6 and was tricked by a cousin over 10 years older into giving a blowjob. Both of them swear to be happy, functional, and trauma-free. However.... I "know" them through porn chat sites wherein straight-identified guys look to mess around with each other. So, there's that sorting effect. In addition, one of them is a heavy drug user and highly promiscuous, and the other tries to set up anonymous high-risk encounters and actually uses the word "RE-ENACT." Dead giveaway.... but both claim to feel okay with what happened. Consciously at least.


There's also a somewhat well-known autobiography of a Dutch author whose parents hosted a U.S. GI during WW2. At the time the boy was about 14 and lonely, the GI less than 5 years older than that. The GI noticed and capitalized.. but the now-grown Dutchman reflects that he only ever found it friendly and enjoyable, and the American hadn't even asked him to keep it a secret (probably because he knew his deployment date and that he could just walk away).


After I was raped I felt no conscious aftereffects. I'd blocked out nearly all of it and dissociated / sterilized the rest. There WERE aftereffects but I didn't consciously add it all together and I kind of just figured I had quirks about myself just like everybody else does and should get used to it. I was HAPPY and felt totally undamaged for 22 years. One seriously unwithstandsbly bad year ruined everything. If things had been different I think I could have obliviously strolled, whistling, straight into the graveyard, having never given a conscious care to the matter.

How many other people block things out - and have them STAY blocked? Suffer aftereffects but don't get where they came from and so just sort of shrug and live around them? Some non-trivial number I'd say.


Those who WEREN'T safe at home, DIDN'T get justice, DIDN'T get help early, and COULDN'T wall off the pain forever.....

.....come here.



Matt


_________________________
My story

"Don't think it hasn't been a little slice of heaven just because it hasn't!" --Bugs Bunny

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#445237 - 08/23/13 08:34 AM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: SoccerStar]
Suwanee Offline
Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/30/12
Posts: 690
Loc: Southeast USA
Matt,

Chicken pox | shingles

Will
_________________________
Cruel Summer
My Journal

-Signs and traces left in stone
Ruins of a past unknown-

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#445244 - 08/23/13 09:09 AM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: victor-victim]
txb Offline


Registered: 02/03/13
Posts: 181
Originally Posted By: victor-victim

sometimes it bothered me during group therapy when i had to listen to some guy who is constantly in a state of self pity and misery, week after week, whining, depressed, and resistant to solid proven recovery techniques... when i know that person has only been fondled once... that is... no violence, no incest, no threats, no repetition, no penetration...


I think if your life has been good and happy and you have parents and people around you who care about you, then when something like that happens it can smash your life into pieces. When you grow up expecting the worst then maybe you are sort of prepared when it does happen? Something happened to me recently and I said to someone 'it wasn't a big deal, it was just sexual assault' I think that sounds pretty messed up. A girl I know had something really minor happen to her. I don't even know if it could be classed as sexual assault. That was a couple of years ago now and she's pretty much in the same state as the guy you mentioned. I do feel sorry for her because everyone thinks she should be over it or it shouldn't bother her because it wasn't what they considered serious.

Jacob, I totally get what you are saying. I suppose I am glad for those people that they were able to become famous or successful, but it makes it seem like either they are super-human, or they are normal and there is just something wrong with me. I especially HATE when famous people say things like their abuse helped make them who they are today or made them a stronger person or whatever. I just HATE that. I wouldn't let abuse take the credit for anything that might be positive about me. Sometimes bad things do happen where they turn out to be a good thing in the end, but this isn't one of them.

Sorry, I forgot what the actual question was.

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