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#383332 - 01/24/12 07:33 AM How men are assumed to be a danger to children...
LandOfShadow Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 684
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
There's an interesting post on The Goodmen Project site Put Your Hands Up and Step Away from the Child about a male elementary teacher's struggle with the suspicion he's a molester and his schools training on touch. And the comments/discussion is even more interesting.

In my experience, boys need attention from males and being kind of "male deprived" puts them at risk of a predatory male's attention.

So as I commented, paradoxically, I think this kind of “good touch” experience for kids, helps them recognize, distinguish, learn to feel empowered to avoid, the (face it, unavoidable) “bad touch” experiences they will encounter in life (the huge range from benign to normal mistakes, to more troublesome or downright abusive stuff).

_________________________
Et par le pouvoir d’un mot Je recommence ma vie, Je suis né pour te connaître, Pour te nommer
Liberté

And by the power of a single word I can begin my life again, I was born to know you, to name you
Freedom

Paul Eluard

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#383396 - 01/24/12 08:54 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: LandOfShadow]
traveler Online   confused
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 3515
Loc: somewhere in Africa
Good article - and lots of other great stuff there. Thanks for the tip, LandOfShadow.

I, too am extremely frustrated and disturbed -(If I was good at anger, I would be ANGRY!)- at this tendency in our society to assume that all abuse survivors will become predators and perpetrators. Many of us are so tied up in knots that we can't even function sexually at all - much less initiate acts with other people.

This is one of the MAJOR reasons I - and I am sure many others - are unable to share our stories with anyone - the fear of being branded as a child molestor, pedophile and pervert.

As I've said before - statistically, TWO THIRDS of us survivors DO NOT ever abuse anyone. That's a pretty big majority. And maybe if there was more safety and freedom to talk about the issue without fear of judgment and rejection, that one third that does eventually offend might be able to get the intervention and help they need to break the cycle before they act out.

Steamin!!!
Lee

_________________________
As my life goes on I believe somehow something's changed
Something deep inside...
I've been searchin so long to find an answer
Now I know my life has meaning
Now I see myself as I am, feeling very free...
When my tears have come to an end I will understand
What I left behind: a part of me. Chicago


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#383398 - 01/24/12 10:04 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: LandOfShadow]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
Well, if we put pedos away for life in prions like I have advocated, he wouldn't have to worry. And, female pedos go to jail for life too. No exceptions. You rape a kid, your life is over. If prison is hell for pedos, good. They shouldn't have been pedos. 'Nuff said.

_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

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#383424 - 01/25/12 09:10 AM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: traveler]
LandOfShadow Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 684
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
Originally Posted By: traveler
And maybe if there was more safety and freedom to talk about the issue without fear of judgment and rejection, that one third that does eventually offend might be able to get the intervention and help they need to break the cycle before they act out.


Yes! Yes! Yes!

Thank you!

_________________________
Et par le pouvoir d’un mot Je recommence ma vie, Je suis né pour te connaître, Pour te nommer
Liberté

And by the power of a single word I can begin my life again, I was born to know you, to name you
Freedom

Paul Eluard

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#383776 - 01/29/12 04:24 AM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: LandOfShadow]
mike13 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/02/11
Posts: 419
Loc: California USA
I am ashamed to admit that this myth is the number one reason I have never gone into teaching. Many people have commented that I seem to have a gift with kids but just one complain and I would be a dead man. Mike


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#383779 - 01/29/12 08:45 AM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: mike13]
LandOfShadow Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 684
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
Something that's helped me a lot dealing with that suspicion is learning about the Stop It Now prevention work. They try more to get adults to prevent abuse (than children through i.e. "good touch/bad touch" kind of teaching).

I realized I actually want people to have their eye's open to abuse potential, ask questions, be aware, and if I ever am the target of their concern, I want them to know anything they want, because no way could I ever hurt a child. It can be an opportunity to teach them about real signs of abuse and how to follow up on concerns.

I haven't had this happen though and I'm sure I would be horrified if someone got suspicious of me. My sense is people won't actually have these conversations though, and stop with innuendo and fear, creating prejudice and shame in us. So boys don't have real fathers and men in their lives. We have to do better than this.

_________________________
Et par le pouvoir d’un mot Je recommence ma vie, Je suis né pour te connaître, Pour te nommer
Liberté

And by the power of a single word I can begin my life again, I was born to know you, to name you
Freedom

Paul Eluard

Top
#383795 - 01/29/12 05:41 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: mike13]
Avery46 Offline


Registered: 09/23/10
Posts: 1243
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: mike13
I am ashamed to admit that this myth is the number one reason I have never gone into teaching. Many people have commented that I seem to have a gift with kids but just one complain and I would be a dead man. Mike


Mike,

I so "connect" with what your saying here. I have been told the same thing about being good with kids. In my late teens and early twenties, I was a volunteer for the big brothers program and Teen Challenge. I was once married and a had a relationship with my own kids. When I came forward with the truth of my life, (the sexual abuse which I said very softly) I was told never to comeback. Urgh!!!

_________________________
aka DJsport

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#383801 - 01/29/12 06:57 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: Avery46]
traveler Online   confused
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 3515
Loc: somewhere in Africa
So sorry, Avery - for you being shunned and rejected for being honest about your past. that is my fear, too.

And Mike - maybe someday you can be an advocate or defender of kids because of your past. So sad that the best qualification is seen as the biggest disqualification by so many.

Tomorrow is the abuse seminar that i am required to attend by the school where i teach. I went back and forth about whether to try to get excused and do the work on-line or tough it out and attend with the rest of the staff. Not being there would raise questions. If i go, an obvious reaction to the material on my part would attract attention. still not sure what to do. and the knot in my stomach is getting bigger and tighter...

Lee

_________________________
As my life goes on I believe somehow something's changed
Something deep inside...
I've been searchin so long to find an answer
Now I know my life has meaning
Now I see myself as I am, feeling very free...
When my tears have come to an end I will understand
What I left behind: a part of me. Chicago


Top
#383804 - 01/29/12 07:56 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: traveler]
mike13 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/02/11
Posts: 419
Loc: California USA
Lee with any luck I will be working with youths and men at the rape crises center. They finally made the connect with what I did for my daughters friend. They have never seen a teenager recover so quickly and now they want to know just what I did.


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#383806 - 01/29/12 08:23 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: mike13]
traveler Online   confused
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 3515
Loc: somewhere in Africa
GREAT! - YOU ROCK, MAN!!!

_________________________
As my life goes on I believe somehow something's changed
Something deep inside...
I've been searchin so long to find an answer
Now I know my life has meaning
Now I see myself as I am, feeling very free...
When my tears have come to an end I will understand
What I left behind: a part of me. Chicago


Top
#383979 - 01/31/12 06:56 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: traveler]
traveler Online   confused
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 3515
Loc: somewhere in Africa
It happened again - Yesterday in a required teachers' meeting the "statistic" was quoted that abuse victims are 6,000 times more likely to become abusers that those without a history as victims. It made me CRAZY!!!

Does anyone know where to find documentation of something like this - to see if it is really true - or other statistics to prove we are not all a danger to kids? I was too upset and paranoid to speak up - didn't want to reveal how upset and defensive i was - in case somebody put 2 + 2 together and decided to lynch me.

Lee

_________________________
As my life goes on I believe somehow something's changed
Something deep inside...
I've been searchin so long to find an answer
Now I know my life has meaning
Now I see myself as I am, feeling very free...
When my tears have come to an end I will understand
What I left behind: a part of me. Chicago


Top
#383980 - 01/31/12 07:12 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: traveler]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: traveler
.... the "statistic" was quoted that abuse victims are 6,000 times more likely to become abusers that those without a history as victims.


more importantly, where did they get that stat from?

it is not an fbi stat.

_________________________
Jeff

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#383982 - 01/31/12 07:34 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: traveler]
Sojourn Survivor Offline


Registered: 01/31/12
Posts: 8
traveler you make a good point - 16 years of working with childrens ministries with my wife, successfully raising 3 sons, helped successfully raise 3 nephews but when found out that I was a survivor... asked to not work with children because I could be a threat.

_________________________
Sojourn Survivor: I will rise, I will live, I survived!

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#384385 - 02/04/12 11:10 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: traveler]
LandOfShadow Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 684
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
Originally Posted By: traveler
abuse victims are 6,000 times more likely to become abusers that those without a history as victims. It made me CRAZY!!!

Does anyone know where to find documentation of something like this


Are we really this backward about this? It sounds like a witch trial.

That's amazing. I've never hear anything like that before in all my reading and assault advocacy training, prevention seminars, etc. That's not defensible.

Furthermore, I'm guessing the point is excluding victims from contact with children is good prevention work. That's bullshit. Show me any study stating that. Look at the Stop It Now and other prevention oriented sites and nobody is saying that. There's no good way to know who's been a victim anyway and a policy like this makes it unlikely people would disclose. Not mention how stigmatizing it is to victims.

You might point out what these sites say ARE good prevention. Signs of abuse in children. Talking to adults about boundaries when you have reason to question them.

This deserves a really thorough answer, but here's something:

The 1 in 6 page I think is pretty good. I would say the people writing this (Jim Hopper wrote a lot of 1 in 6) is very authoritative. (see www.jimhopper.com)

He describes some research on this issue here: Factors in the Cycle of Violence

I always wonder when I hear this, why wouldn't this be true for women as well? Why would the psychological processes that transform abuse into abusive-to-others be different for men than for women? There are plenty of female teachers being sexual with students, so, if a woman was abused, doesn't that make her more likely to abuse a student as well? Except, I'm guessing they are ignoring all that? The ACE study found 38% of men who reported CSA had female perpetrators, so if nobody's reading the news, you can't say female teachers aren't a danger.

I don't think studies are what people need. Its more ... are they willing to look at themselves, their attitudes and what they think they "know". It's prejudice and ignorance and blind fear.


_________________________
Et par le pouvoir d’un mot Je recommence ma vie, Je suis né pour te connaître, Pour te nommer
Liberté

And by the power of a single word I can begin my life again, I was born to know you, to name you
Freedom

Paul Eluard

Top
#384435 - 02/05/12 09:33 AM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: Sojourn Survivor]
LandOfShadow Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 684
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
Originally Posted By: Sojourn Survivor
traveler you make a good point - 16 years of working with childrens ministries with my wife, successfully raising 3 sons, helped successfully raise 3 nephews but when found out that I was a survivor... asked to not work with children because I could be a threat.


I hope you don't accept that in the slightest. What happened next?

Your past doesn't ruin your future. That's what this site is all about.

_________________________
Et par le pouvoir d’un mot Je recommence ma vie, Je suis né pour te connaître, Pour te nommer
Liberté

And by the power of a single word I can begin my life again, I was born to know you, to name you
Freedom

Paul Eluard

Top
#384618 - 02/06/12 07:56 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: LandOfShadow]
Shawushka Offline


Registered: 01/05/11
Posts: 128
Loc: VA
Excellent article! Thank you for posting this.


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#384629 - 02/06/12 09:40 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: Shawushka]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11183
Loc: Denver, CO
Having been raised by Darth Mother, I learned females were just as likely to cause harm in my world as anyone.

I saw an article that listed an airline in Australia having a policy of seating a female adult next to an unaccompanied minor child instead of a male adult, and a potential male patron wrote them a letter saying they would not fly this airline until this policy was changed.



_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#384852 - 02/08/12 06:52 AM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: FormerTexan]
mike13 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/02/11
Posts: 419
Loc: California USA
Great point Andy! I remember when I worked inflight with People Express, I was called upon to deal with an unruly Unam. The lead flight attendent, a 55+ female, was very uncomfortable that I dealt with him alone. I asked her to her face if she really thought I was going to abuse the snoot nosed punk. She turned all red and let me handle it. The kid was no problem for the remaining three hours of the flight.


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#384862 - 02/08/12 07:49 AM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: mike13]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
Let me play Devil's Advocate:

So, what if 6000 times more likely is true?

People that know nothing about CSA are just protecting their kids because schools can't seem to stop their child rape epidemic. That includes the female bunch doing it.

If I had a kid, I damn sure wouldn't let any Roman Catholic Priest be alone with him/her, and I'd check the sex offender registry to make sure that bunch ain't near them either.

33% of male CSA survivors do offend. That's a lot of offending.

Parents are just trying to protect their children from the child rape epidemic BECAUSE IT IS EVERYWHERE AND ORGANIZATIONS HAVE FAILED TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT MOST OF THE TIME! That's the problem.

Don't get mad at parents for saying, "33% of male CSA survivors offend so I don't want anyone of them around my kids especially the men." Kids are precious cargo and parents have a duty and a right to protect them against any and all perceived threats whether it is fair or not.

_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

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#384864 - 02/08/12 08:04 AM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: Avery46]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
Originally Posted By: Avery46
Originally Posted By: mike13
I am ashamed to admit that this myth is the number one reason I have never gone into teaching. Many people have commented that I seem to have a gift with kids but just one complain and I would be a dead man. Mike


Mike,

I so "connect" with what your saying here. I have been told the same thing about being good with kids. In my late teens and early twenties, I was a volunteer for the big brothers program and Teen Challenge. I was once married and a had a relationship with my own kids. When I came forward with the truth of my life, (the sexual abuse which I said very softly) I was told never to comeback. Urgh!!!


That's why I never got involved with anything relating to kids once I discovered my CSA. It ain't worth someone trying to get rich and suing over a false allegation. Used to see women accuse men of sexual harassment all the time so they could get a fast track promotion or a payoff or sue. They really were only hurting other women that are geniunely sexually harassed and the innocent guys they accused.

_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

Top
#384865 - 02/08/12 08:05 AM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: phoenix321]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2590
Quote:
33% of male CSA survivors do offend.


Where did you get that statistic from? I've actually never heard such a high number and the reports and such that I've read in the past weren't that high either.


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#384875 - 02/08/12 09:46 AM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: phoenix321]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6602
Loc: FEMA Region 1
OK,

I've read the Jim Hopper, PhD abstract and excerpt. Keep in mind, this is NOT the entire research project. I cannot seem to find the entire article and I cannot verify if this is even a peer-reviewed work, submitted to a peer-reviewed publication and then duly published.

I CAN however make very solid and scientifically-sound assertions based upon what we read in the link. That is, baring necessary and requisite information, we can actually dismiss the contents of the entire "excerpt and abstract."

1) No stated de>
_________________________
I'm "that guy."

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#384880 - 02/08/12 10:16 AM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: JustScott]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
Originally Posted By: JustScott
Quote:
33% of male CSA survivors do offend.


Where did you get that statistic from? I've actually never heard such a high number and the reports and such that I've read in the past weren't that high either.


Several places over the years. It could be wrong. What have you read?

_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

Top
#384882 - 02/08/12 10:23 AM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: phoenix321]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6602
Loc: FEMA Region 1
That 33% is the number thrown-about by the popular media (e.g.: Law and Order SVU, NYTimes...). Its a popular figure that seems to go hand-in-hand with the street-myths. We need some scholarly professional to tell us some sound truths, cuz this is some serious *bleep* we are dealing with here.

_________________________
I'm "that guy."

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#384887 - 02/08/12 10:45 AM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: Still]
traveler Online   confused
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 3515
Loc: somewhere in Africa
AMEN, brother! Preach it!!!!!

_________________________
As my life goes on I believe somehow something's changed
Something deep inside...
I've been searchin so long to find an answer
Now I know my life has meaning
Now I see myself as I am, feeling very free...
When my tears have come to an end I will understand
What I left behind: a part of me. Chicago


Top
#384921 - 02/08/12 01:52 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: phoenix321]
Shawushka Offline


Registered: 01/05/11
Posts: 128
Loc: VA
Originally Posted By: phoenix321
Let me play Devil's Advocate:

So, what if 6000 times more likely is true?
33% of male CSA survivors do offend. That's a lot of offending.


{phoenix, forgive me the 'cherry picking' when I quote this excerpts from your post}

Let's say these number would be true, shouldn't that alarm everyone that survivors need more help, better access to therapy, more support?

What if we offer help to sex offenders instead of listing them in sex offender registry that can be accessed by the public, that ostracizes them, keeps them from getting a job, etc.?
What if every convicted sex offender in prison would have access to qualified therapists/therapy?

It'd be interested to find out how many victims become perpetrators BECAUSE they never had access to therapy.


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#384930 - 02/08/12 02:42 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: Shawushka]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6602
Loc: FEMA Region 1
Originally Posted By: Shawushka

It'd be interested to find out how many victims become perpetrators BECAUSE they never had access to therapy.


Yeah...let's find out for that reason and:

-Divorce
-Spousal Relations
-Judges misunderstanding
-Therapists mis-informing us
-Child safety
-Societal regard for us
-Our own self-perceptions

THIS is a rather mega-issue for non-offending survivors. I would normally say "I don't give a rat's ass about imprisoned perps." But if 33% is true...Now i DO have to give a rat's ass.

Everything I've been telling people, living and relying-upon is in doubt till someone clears-up that number!

_________________________
I'm "that guy."

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#384931 - 02/08/12 03:00 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: Still]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2590
I'll do what I can to find the various articles etc that I read quite some time back that had a much lower number.

I've seen a misconception many times that says since X% offenders abuse then X% of abused will abuse as well... it's not the same thing and not the same number.

When I get some time I'll do some digging, hope I can find them.


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#384958 - 02/08/12 07:09 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: JustScott]
LandOfShadow Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 684
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
Ok, I requested a copy of "Factors in the cycle of violence: Gender rigidity and emotional constriction." from my library which I'll have in a few days probably.

Phoenix, I think we all want to protect children and create a safer environment and world for all of us. It's just,... do you think this is the best way to do that? If you believe the 1 in 6 figure, ... stigmatize 16% of men? And, you said women, so include them? About 25% of women? Bar them all from being teachers, involvement in youth organizations, day care work, etc. ? Of course, I agree, if you're saying, it's not best, but our professional community isn't saying anything about it. Or parents just do their best with little or no guidance. I actually think this fearful environment that creates leaves children LESS safe because everyone's afraid of some punitive authoritative action. Look at the complete firing of all the staff at that Los Angeles Elementary school...

I have to think CSA survivors who've had therapy and recovery work would be a very different risk factor as well. So, yes, I think it speaks to how the tremendous lack of resources isn't making the world safer for kids.

_________________________
Et par le pouvoir d’un mot Je recommence ma vie, Je suis né pour te connaître, Pour te nommer
Liberté

And by the power of a single word I can begin my life again, I was born to know you, to name you
Freedom

Paul Eluard

Top
#384971 - 02/08/12 08:28 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: JustScott]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6602
Loc: FEMA Region 1
Originally Posted By: JustScott

I've seen a misconception many times that says since X% offenders abuse then X% of abused will abuse as well... it's not the same thing and not the same number.


Sort of like: 100% of all cancer victims consumed milk throughout their childhood. Thus, 100% of all milk drinkers will get cancer.

Some researchers, (especially in politics) will pull such a sht-head move. Many many people are just stupid enough to fal for it and sometimes the stats-abusers believe the crap too.

_________________________
I'm "that guy."

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#384973 - 02/08/12 08:37 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: LandOfShadow]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: LandOfShadow
Ok, I requested a copy of "Factors in the cycle of violence: Gender rigidity and emotional constriction."


ok, so, second time today i've written on this very board - there is a catch 22.

if you fuck a boy - he'll get someone back. 100% true in my experience. whether we here want to or like to admit it or not, our pedophiles were extremely likely to have been male survivors too. i do know my rapist was abused as a boy too.

is it used against us? absolutely. but who has the studies on "men post-recovery" versus men who never seek treatment? do we have to look at prison records? because that is where untreated male survivors very likely end up, in my view.

in a story i researched on male survivors in 2006, i asked male survivor respondents to answer if they had engaged in sex with someone "under the age of 18." as not to offend those i had convinced to take the survey, i did not ask if they perpetrated a child. nonetheless, 11% of male survivors said they had sex with someone under 18 after being molested themselves, 75% said they hadn't, and 14% would not answer.

in my view - that 75% of male survivors is the key. and i conclude indeed that just being raped as a boy doesn't mean you rape back. however it is that 25% or so that is of great concern to me. but, i do believe in the recovery process and believe that with recovery, we could get a 99% rate of success. (i.e. male survivors as a group would become the safest bunch of men around children than anyone else!)


_________________________
Jeff

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#384976 - 02/08/12 08:48 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: westchesterguy]
traveler Online   confused
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 3515
Loc: somewhere in Africa
Another big concern is...
Just think how many of us are in denial with repressed memories for long years of our lives.
i'm sure that there are many who act out - not even knowing why.
Even if you could identify all the victims or survivors, you'd miss a huge number who have never faced the ugly painful truth.
I think they may be even more of a danger than the ones who know what happened and are suffering with the memories...

_________________________
As my life goes on I believe somehow something's changed
Something deep inside...
I've been searchin so long to find an answer
Now I know my life has meaning
Now I see myself as I am, feeling very free...
When my tears have come to an end I will understand
What I left behind: a part of me. Chicago


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#384979 - 02/08/12 09:04 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: traveler]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: traveler
....I think they may be even more of a danger than the ones who know what happened and are suffering with the memories...


i agree with you traveler. in my very personal view, this is where the "gay" community fails both society and male survivors. the gay community is starved for membership due to the fact we are a fringe group of the overall population, so thus it "accepts" anyone even remotely, what some might consider to be, out of the norm. but if we are honest with ourselves and each other, understand and embrace "male sexuality" -- whatever that is because clearly it is not defined -- i think there would be a much safer environment for our kids moving forward.

_________________________
Jeff

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#385062 - 02/09/12 03:46 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: westchesterguy]
LandOfShadow Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 684
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
Originally Posted By: westchesterguy
prison records? because that is where untreated male survivors very likely end up, in my view.


Do you know?

It's David Lisak, an author of the paper in question, is indeed talking about this in the documentary "Boys and Men Healing"... He talks of his abuse playing out in his life, and indeed says to JT, the survivor behind the prison wall that he is just lucky not to be in there with him. So true. That is my favorite scene from the film by far. That has profound implications for a country with 5 times the per capita prison population and restrictive social services funding.

JT is black, and it appears to me that it is even more difficult and taboo for black men to talk of being abused than white. IDK. There's a lot in all that, but I'm inclined to think this is a piece of that situation.

As for the responsibility of the gay community, I can't see how they've failed society or male survivors. Perhaps I misunderstand you. Making same-sex relationships and "just sex" an utterly unremarkable "normal" thing would help survivors and everyone focus on the relevant issues of: is this consensual? Is it wanted by both people? Freely chosen without influence of past coercion or lack of full awareness? is it developmentally "a fit" for both people? But we are light-years from that and yes, sometimes I hear an over-reaction or obvious defensiveness to labeling any same-sex activity a felony. But I attribute that to the fear ALL same-sex activity could become a felony given our political "leadership" on the issue.

It's bizarre to see how this assumption men are dangerous plays out with people. I just saw it with a professor and students of social work no less in a discussion and showing of the Boys and Men Healing film... (posted elsewhere here). Clearly, there are dangers of all kinds not treating male survivors of CSA (suicidality, "perpetration of harms" to self and others, (long list)). But then, that immediately becomes the reason not to talk about, treat or help male survivors. Huh? I call it a failure to have empathy. Or they go unconscious. People just shut down and turn away, creating the thing they fear. It's weird to witness. And most discouraging from a professor at a top-ranked school of social work.

I often feel it's just a hopeless situation. And in general having a degree of some kind, even mental health, doesn't seem to mean anything as to how aware or helpful people are.

_________________________
Et par le pouvoir d’un mot Je recommence ma vie, Je suis né pour te connaître, Pour te nommer
Liberté

And by the power of a single word I can begin my life again, I was born to know you, to name you
Freedom

Paul Eluard

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#385064 - 02/09/12 05:25 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: LandOfShadow]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: LandOfShadow
...As for the responsibility of the gay community, I can't see how they've failed society or male survivors.


can take baby steps with this and just stick with survivors for now. smile

i do not know how many LGBT community centers we have in this country in 2011/2012. there is one here in westchester. there is the big one in manhattan. do all major cities have one still?

how many of them have ongoing male survivor support groups? (how many just have any male survivor support group?)

when i did research this topic few years ago, none of them had male survivor support groups at that point in time. nearly all had AA support, most had sexual-addiction and food addiction support groups. lots of transgender support.

interesting said i... they lend support for "things that survivors often do" to hide our pain... but what about "helping survivors" overcome the purpose they drink, or take drugs or are depressed or engage in anon sex?

that is what i mean about the gay community failing us - just as one example.

do any gay organizations even fund "male survivor org"?

a second example, right here just the other day a survivor wrote about his experience with a gay therapist. while i will generalize here - i just wonder how many gay guys with some level of authority will tell a man "you are gay" if he happens to have had sex with another guy - and enjoyed it. or even thinks he wants to have sex with another guy.

the suggestion that one is gay - simply because someone else "wants him to be gay" is not helpful nor is it responsible in the least bit, in my view.

_________________________
Jeff

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#385163 - 02/10/12 12:01 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: westchesterguy]
LandOfShadow Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 684
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
There's too much "in the mix" in all that for me to know what to say in writing, here. (Without writing 20 paragraphs to scratch the surface) Not the least, the whole ball of wax that is the "SAA or gay?" thread elsewhere here.

Originally Posted By: westchesterguy

do any gay organizations even fund "male survivor org"?


I don't think that fits their purpose or "mission".

Being gay is in part a self-declared socially constructed identity in society. I don't think gay organizations have responsibility to make sure you are all "psychologically sound" in that declaration because that is vast and everyone's responsibility. Of course, homophobia external, can also be "internalized". Complicated. The "self" in "self-declared gay" (or GLBTQ etc) becomes lost and must be reconstructed, or constructed the first time if it was never developed as a child. That "sense of self" in psychology.

Jeff, I think you have a rare and particular sophistication in distinguishing the signals of "the self" in say one man, straight, with CSA and SAA, acting out with men and another man, without CSA and with SAA but so ashamed and internally homophobic he's secretive about having sex with men. I doubt anyone could distinguish those from external behavior. But a "self" can. Indeed must. Hopefully in adolescence, figure out who he is, an identity in the world and fit into all that successfully.

I'm a firm supporter of people at any age figuring that out for themselves with the option to have same sex relationships indistinguishable in equally to opposite sex relationships.

Not sure if this makes sense, or I understand you correctly. There's so much in all this.

_________________________
Et par le pouvoir d’un mot Je recommence ma vie, Je suis né pour te connaître, Pour te nommer
Liberté

And by the power of a single word I can begin my life again, I was born to know you, to name you
Freedom

Paul Eluard

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#385176 - 02/10/12 01:23 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: LandOfShadow]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: LandOfShadow
....Not sure if this makes sense, or I understand you correctly. There's so much in all this.


hm. have to admit i didn't quite follow. granted it is complicated - yet very appropriate for the title of this post.

we are talking about men - and what danger men really pose to kids. what wacky ideas do men have and if they can't even come to grips with themselves and their sexuality how the hell can they even be remotely considered safe to a child (just emotionally even)?

i also charge the gay community with "failing" its own -- because, in my humble view, they ought know better. gays are oppressed and i think if i could "group" the entire u.s.a. gay male community into one term it would be: sexual abuse victim.

i'm old enough to recall that in the 70s nambla was still part of the "gay community" in calif. bad timing...for there was horror in being raped by a man aligned with nambla (thus gay). now, while that has changed.... in theory... i believe we now have this motto: "think guys are cute? hooray! you are gay! please sign this petition for marriage equality." or "you gay? hooray! smile. don't kill yourself, life gets better!"

sigh.

the last time i atteneded a "general men's support group" at the nyc glbt center the conversation came around to sex with boys. there were about 10 of us attending, three were older men (+55) all of whom felt that childhood abuse had simply become an overraction... they had been sexualized by older men when they were boys. it was no big deal. that is how its done, they said.

they went to a movie theater or park where plenty of men wanted to have sex every saturday. this converstation took place in 2003 - not that long ago. i spoke too. told those three men they were about the age of the guy who raped me and what life had been like since. silence in the room. except for two young guys there in their 20s who were sobbing uncontrollably. another guy left in the middle of me describing being raped.

just how many gay guys were abused/raped as boys? how many adult men are a danger to young gay kids?

does the gay community really want to know?

i, personally, think not. keep status quo. that guy arrested for giving a b.j. to an undercover police officer in a park late night in anytown u.s.a. -- is just "in the closet" he'll come around... and join us... to sign our latest petition!


_________________________
Jeff

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#385233 - 02/10/12 10:42 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: LandOfShadow]
Sojourn Survivor Offline


Registered: 01/31/12
Posts: 8
I didnt accept it. However I really stepped back to re understand my reality. Oddly enough at about the same time i ended up in the hospital with some serious health problems. Nothing says give up on life than a detached spouse who wont discuss the issue and the backbone of your faith walking away from you. I had some epiphanies... The church soon changed pastors. The new pastor knows but he also knows I have little desire to really integrate or mix with the main group. Changes in my work now allow me to spend lots of time helping just regular everyday people... like all of us in here.

_________________________
Sojourn Survivor: I will rise, I will live, I survived!

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#385236 - 02/10/12 11:19 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: Sojourn Survivor]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6602
Loc: FEMA Region 1
WOW Westchester!!! I wish Roscoe and I could attend a meeting like that!!! heh!!! Oh goodness!!! Bring ear-plugs though...

_________________________
I'm "that guy."

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#385359 - 02/11/12 08:04 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: phoenix321]
blacken Offline
Chatroom Moderator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 1308
Loc: Northern Ohio
Pheonix,
Where in the world did u get those stats that 33% of CSA survivors offend?!?
I work in the social work field in Ohio. We believe its more like 5 to 7%.



Edited by blacken (02/21/12 11:12 PM)

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#385365 - 02/11/12 08:22 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: phoenix321]
blacken Offline
Chatroom Moderator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 1308
Loc: Northern Ohio
Pheonix,
Where in the world did u get those stats that 33% of CSA survivors offend?!?
I work in the social work field in Ohio. We believe its more like 5 to 7%.

_________________________
Everyone is a genius! If you were to judge a fish, by its ability to climb a tree,
it would think it was stupid all of it's life.
~Albert Einstein

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#385395 - 02/11/12 11:42 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: blacken]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6602
Loc: FEMA Region 1
That stats we use, running around citing, need to be identified. The myth we try to dissuade with these stats are a virtual cornerstone of our battle to our acceptance into society, our families, everything!

_________________________
I'm "that guy."

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#385432 - 02/12/12 09:13 AM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: Still]
mike13 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/02/11
Posts: 419
Loc: California USA
You are so right Robbie


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#385492 - 02/12/12 09:06 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: blacken]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
Originally Posted By: blacken
Pheonix,
Where in the world did u get those stats that 33% of CSA survivors offend?!?
I work in the social work field in Ohio. We believe its more like 5 to 7%.


Offend in child abuse and SA and CSA. I've always read that.

_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

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#385493 - 02/12/12 09:15 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: Still]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
Originally Posted By: Robbie Brown
That 33% is the number thrown-about by the popular media (e.g.: Law and Order SVU, NYTimes...). Its a popular figure that seems to go hand-in-hand with the street-myths. We need some scholarly professional to tell us some sound truths, cuz this is some serious *bleep* we are dealing with here.


Yep, heard that 33% stat over and over. Maybe it includes all crime?

Perhaps before people (male or female) become responsible for kids a psych test is given?

I think overall we need to recognize that stats in these areas are very difficult to come by.

You can all jump on me but I don't think this makes it false: "Parents can chose who they want to be around their kids and who they don't want around their kids regardless of discrimination. Educate those that do it to extremes but with all the pedo behavior out there, how is it not their right to be cautious? Nothing wrong with drug testing teachers."

I was very honest that I wouldn't let my kids (if I had them) be around Priests period. Am I bad? Hell no! Every time I see one I wonder, "is he a pedo?" If the Roman Catholic church hadn't extensively covered it up to absurd degrees, I wouldn't think that. That's how a lot of uninformed people think.

As for pedos, life in prison is my thought. No exceptions. Male or female pedos get the same.

_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

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#385976 - 02/16/12 03:38 AM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: phoenix321]
traveler Online   confused
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 3515
Loc: somewhere in Africa
mad They did it again! mad

Last night i was watching an episode of LAw & Order SVU outside the US - so it wsa a different scheule and probly even a different season) and i couldn't believe that they were perpetuating the same old myth.

*** Triggers***
story line involved a young woman who'd been raped and as they investigate the suspects and motives it turned out she'd been kidnapped as a young girl and was used to make pedo-porn films. She was helped to escape by one of her "co-stars" - a boy slightly older than her and they lost one another. As the case unfolds, they discover that the rapist was one of her "fans" and the boy victim has now taken over the film business and is abusing kids the way he and the girl had been used. She kills the old man that used her, but the co-star rescuer, boy/now man is still out there...

If I hadn't been so mad about the whole thing it might have been a major trigger for me - but the ANGER gave me the strength to watch to the end. i kept hoping ... I know it's crazy - but have you ever prayed for the end of a show or book or film to be different than how you're afraid it's going to end up?

and the beat goes on...

mad LEE mad

_________________________
As my life goes on I believe somehow something's changed
Something deep inside...
I've been searchin so long to find an answer
Now I know my life has meaning
Now I see myself as I am, feeling very free...
When my tears have come to an end I will understand
What I left behind: a part of me. Chicago


Top
#385996 - 02/16/12 08:12 AM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: traveler]
Still Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6602
Loc: FEMA Region 1
I've written to the producers and anyone else with an email address where Law&Order SVU id produced. I've tried to tell and show them whats what and set them straight. I've never heard back from any of them (which is unusual).

But the Asian Psychiatrist, when dealing with young-boy victims, or grown offenders, nearly always perpetuates the myths.

I'll never forget the one in which a 12-yo boy was being used by a middle-age soccer mom. She was using him BIG time and even got pregnant from him.

Dr. Asian said (speaking of the boy) "he'll certainly have sexuality issues and will most likely become an offender himself."

Elvis use to shoot his TV sets with a .45 pistol every time it pissed him off. I really wish I were Elvis.

_________________________
I'm "that guy."

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#386270 - 02/18/12 03:42 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: Still]
blacken Offline
Chatroom Moderator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 1308
Loc: Northern Ohio
OK, I did some research. I wanted to be able to site references to discount this 33%.

Lancet, Vol 361, Issue 9356, (2/8/2003), ISSN: 00995355. Results of a longitudinal study of 224 male children that were victims of sexual abuse. It was found that, "Overall, 11.6% of victims became perpetrators in later life."

You can read the full artical here.
http://www.thelancet.com/search/results?searchTerm=paul+bouvier&fieldName=Authors&journalFromWhichSearchStarted=lancet

I found many sources, but have only read this one fully. There is some disquieting information there that you may be upset by.

Granted, it is only one article. Yet it is resent & from a reputable source.

There are more surveys & research out there. I will post as I find it. Note that the 11.6% is higher than I expected. So I will continue to report what I find, whether is supports my preclusion or not.


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#386293 - 02/18/12 09:09 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: blacken]
LandOfShadow Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 684
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
It looks like you need a login for the site? Or subscription? How did you access it?

I got the 1996 "Cycle of violence..." paper. I'm not sure what to say about it because there's so much complexity in a study like this. Data was gathered by offering a few dollars to whatever 600 male students would fill out a bunch of self-report assessments. Some were interviewed to verify self-report accuracy. Gender Rigidity and Emotional constriction was the particular interest. "Abuse" and perpetration covered physical AND sexual abuse and perpetration. This isn't a sample one can particularly generalize from, but 38% of the abused reported some form of perpetration (physical or sexual against adults or children). 70% of perpetrators reported childhood abuse. So 30% didn't. That in itself seems important that a focus on CSA survivors misses 30% by that result.

Nearly half (45%) of the men reported physical or sexual abuse or both.

In more detail:
Code:
Involving any form of perpetration (on adult or child): 
                        N     % Perpetrated
                       ----  ----------------
Non abused             316    11%
Only sexually abused    34    32%
Only physically abused 126    37%
Both sex. & phy. abuse  61`   44%

Involving perpetration against children: 
                        N     % Perpetrated
                       ----  ----------------
Non abused             317     4%
Only sexually abused    34    18%
Only physically abused 125    17%
Both sex. & phy. abuse  61`   23%


In rough numbers, then abused boys had a 20% chance of abusing children (physically or sexually), five times higher than the 4% chance of non-abused boys. (NOT the "6000 times higher above"). Other findings that would make sense to us were: experiencing physical abuse leads to physical perpetrators, and sexual abuse to sexual perpetrators. More severe abuse makes perpetration more likely.

The hypothesis that abused perpetrators would score higher than abused non-perpetrators on measures of gender rigidity and emotional constriction was partially supported, more so with physically abused men than sexually abused.

Surprisingly abused men, especially sexually abused men actually showed less gender stress, emotional constriction and homophobia than non-abused men.

There's an interesting concluding remark that makes total sense to me. It speaks to the men who I think we don't see here at MS, don't see in support groups, who perhaps are in prison or silent:

Quote:
On way to understand these findings is to conceptualize two developmental pathways diverging from a history of childhood abuse. In one path, the male abuse victim may appear conflicted and preoccupied by gender identity issues, but this preoccupation may indicate a lack of conformity to gender norms necessitated by his coping with the legacy of his abuse. In the other path, the male abuse victim strives to be stereotypically masculine, and must therefore suppress the high magnitude emotional states that are the legacy of his abuse. The suppression required to hold at bay the emotional legacy of abuse may also suppress his capacity to empathize with others. Having sealed himself off from his own pain, the perpetrator may well seal off his capacity to feel the pain of others, and thereby diminish a crucial inhibition against interpersonal violence. Simultaneously, his rigid gender conformity may accentuate his reliance on anger as a culturally acceptable outlet for his emotions, again increasing his propensity for aggressive interpersonal behavior.


Simply put, men either "act in" (hurt themselves) or "act out" (hurt others). We see the "act in" men. The "act out" men are in prisons, the hyper-masculine types, forever silent.

The fact that 16 years later there's not a large body of research addressing this is the most striking thing to me. There seems to be little interest in fundamentally changing the current state of affairs concerning violence and victimization.

_________________________
Et par le pouvoir d’un mot Je recommence ma vie, Je suis né pour te connaître, Pour te nommer
Liberté

And by the power of a single word I can begin my life again, I was born to know you, to name you
Freedom

Paul Eluard

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#386359 - 02/19/12 06:50 AM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: LandOfShadow]
blacken Offline
Chatroom Moderator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 1308
Loc: Northern Ohio
The problem with surveys, is in the manner in which they are conducted, & the wording &
definition of words use.
If you offer money to complete a random survey, u r likely to get the worst stats because those
filling it out feel compelled "to say something", whether or nor its completely true.
Also, the wording of a survey question is extremely important.
Using a statement such as, 'Did u sexually abuse a child after u became an adult?' , for example,
could lead to the surveyor defining what sexual abuse is. The answers, even when multiple
choice answers are provided can & will be skewed. Even the location where the survey is taken,
can impact your results.
I am not saying there is not important info to be gained by a survey, yet caution that random
surveys differ from studies/research where the variables are screened from general to specific,
definitions are precise, & the source of info is either not aware he is being watched, or
confidentiality is firmly established.
‘Popular media’, will always gravitate towards stats that support what they want & not
necessarily to teach society about the secrets it refuses to face.


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#386393 - 02/19/12 10:39 AM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: blacken]
LandOfShadow Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 684
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
Blacken, you could read the study because there was considerable discussion of those effects and various consistency checks that were explored. But you are right, this can't be done naively, and they didn't. Reading it, I had the impression it was carefully done and results were double checked in a variety of ways for accuracy.

Men for example are quite reluctant to label themselves as "abused" or raped so those words weren't used. Instead, many neutral behavioral de>
_________________________
Et par le pouvoir d’un mot Je recommence ma vie, Je suis né pour te connaître, Pour te nommer
Liberté

And by the power of a single word I can begin my life again, I was born to know you, to name you
Freedom

Paul Eluard

Top
#386428 - 02/19/12 06:12 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: LandOfShadow]
LandOfShadow Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 684
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
_________________________
Et par le pouvoir d’un mot Je recommence ma vie, Je suis né pour te connaître, Pour te nommer
Liberté

And by the power of a single word I can begin my life again, I was born to know you, to name you
Freedom

Paul Eluard

Top
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