Newest Members
jeremywickers, JScott12, TMatti2, DaiseyLady, uvagrad4
12501 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
innocence (60), pablo999 (53)
Who's Online
3 registered (traveler, susie, GT13568), 28 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
12501 Members
74 Forums
64188 Topics
447911 Posts

Max Online: 418 @ 07/02/12 07:29 AM
Twitter
Page 4 of 6 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 >
Topic Options
#384973 - 02/08/12 08:37 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: LandOfShadow]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: LandOfShadow
Ok, I requested a copy of "Factors in the cycle of violence: Gender rigidity and emotional constriction."


ok, so, second time today i've written on this very board - there is a catch 22.

if you fuck a boy - he'll get someone back. 100% true in my experience. whether we here want to or like to admit it or not, our pedophiles were extremely likely to have been male survivors too. i do know my rapist was abused as a boy too.

is it used against us? absolutely. but who has the studies on "men post-recovery" versus men who never seek treatment? do we have to look at prison records? because that is where untreated male survivors very likely end up, in my view.

in a story i researched on male survivors in 2006, i asked male survivor respondents to answer if they had engaged in sex with someone "under the age of 18." as not to offend those i had convinced to take the survey, i did not ask if they perpetrated a child. nonetheless, 11% of male survivors said they had sex with someone under 18 after being molested themselves, 75% said they hadn't, and 14% would not answer.

in my view - that 75% of male survivors is the key. and i conclude indeed that just being raped as a boy doesn't mean you rape back. however it is that 25% or so that is of great concern to me. but, i do believe in the recovery process and believe that with recovery, we could get a 99% rate of success. (i.e. male survivors as a group would become the safest bunch of men around children than anyone else!)


_________________________
Jeff

Top
#384976 - 02/08/12 08:48 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: westchesterguy]
traveler Online   confused
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 3516
Loc: somewhere in Africa
Another big concern is...
Just think how many of us are in denial with repressed memories for long years of our lives.
i'm sure that there are many who act out - not even knowing why.
Even if you could identify all the victims or survivors, you'd miss a huge number who have never faced the ugly painful truth.
I think they may be even more of a danger than the ones who know what happened and are suffering with the memories...

_________________________
As my life goes on I believe somehow something's changed
Something deep inside...
I've been searchin so long to find an answer
Now I know my life has meaning
Now I see myself as I am, feeling very free...
When my tears have come to an end I will understand
What I left behind: a part of me. Chicago


Top
#384979 - 02/08/12 09:04 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: traveler]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: traveler
....I think they may be even more of a danger than the ones who know what happened and are suffering with the memories...


i agree with you traveler. in my very personal view, this is where the "gay" community fails both society and male survivors. the gay community is starved for membership due to the fact we are a fringe group of the overall population, so thus it "accepts" anyone even remotely, what some might consider to be, out of the norm. but if we are honest with ourselves and each other, understand and embrace "male sexuality" -- whatever that is because clearly it is not defined -- i think there would be a much safer environment for our kids moving forward.

_________________________
Jeff

Top
#385062 - 02/09/12 03:46 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: westchesterguy]
LandOfShadow Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 684
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
Originally Posted By: westchesterguy
prison records? because that is where untreated male survivors very likely end up, in my view.


Do you know?

It's David Lisak, an author of the paper in question, is indeed talking about this in the documentary "Boys and Men Healing"... He talks of his abuse playing out in his life, and indeed says to JT, the survivor behind the prison wall that he is just lucky not to be in there with him. So true. That is my favorite scene from the film by far. That has profound implications for a country with 5 times the per capita prison population and restrictive social services funding.

JT is black, and it appears to me that it is even more difficult and taboo for black men to talk of being abused than white. IDK. There's a lot in all that, but I'm inclined to think this is a piece of that situation.

As for the responsibility of the gay community, I can't see how they've failed society or male survivors. Perhaps I misunderstand you. Making same-sex relationships and "just sex" an utterly unremarkable "normal" thing would help survivors and everyone focus on the relevant issues of: is this consensual? Is it wanted by both people? Freely chosen without influence of past coercion or lack of full awareness? is it developmentally "a fit" for both people? But we are light-years from that and yes, sometimes I hear an over-reaction or obvious defensiveness to labeling any same-sex activity a felony. But I attribute that to the fear ALL same-sex activity could become a felony given our political "leadership" on the issue.

It's bizarre to see how this assumption men are dangerous plays out with people. I just saw it with a professor and students of social work no less in a discussion and showing of the Boys and Men Healing film... (posted elsewhere here). Clearly, there are dangers of all kinds not treating male survivors of CSA (suicidality, "perpetration of harms" to self and others, (long list)). But then, that immediately becomes the reason not to talk about, treat or help male survivors. Huh? I call it a failure to have empathy. Or they go unconscious. People just shut down and turn away, creating the thing they fear. It's weird to witness. And most discouraging from a professor at a top-ranked school of social work.

I often feel it's just a hopeless situation. And in general having a degree of some kind, even mental health, doesn't seem to mean anything as to how aware or helpful people are.

_________________________
Et par le pouvoir d’un mot Je recommence ma vie, Je suis né pour te connaître, Pour te nommer
Liberté

And by the power of a single word I can begin my life again, I was born to know you, to name you
Freedom

Paul Eluard

Top
#385064 - 02/09/12 05:25 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: LandOfShadow]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: LandOfShadow
...As for the responsibility of the gay community, I can't see how they've failed society or male survivors.


can take baby steps with this and just stick with survivors for now. smile

i do not know how many LGBT community centers we have in this country in 2011/2012. there is one here in westchester. there is the big one in manhattan. do all major cities have one still?

how many of them have ongoing male survivor support groups? (how many just have any male survivor support group?)

when i did research this topic few years ago, none of them had male survivor support groups at that point in time. nearly all had AA support, most had sexual-addiction and food addiction support groups. lots of transgender support.

interesting said i... they lend support for "things that survivors often do" to hide our pain... but what about "helping survivors" overcome the purpose they drink, or take drugs or are depressed or engage in anon sex?

that is what i mean about the gay community failing us - just as one example.

do any gay organizations even fund "male survivor org"?

a second example, right here just the other day a survivor wrote about his experience with a gay therapist. while i will generalize here - i just wonder how many gay guys with some level of authority will tell a man "you are gay" if he happens to have had sex with another guy - and enjoyed it. or even thinks he wants to have sex with another guy.

the suggestion that one is gay - simply because someone else "wants him to be gay" is not helpful nor is it responsible in the least bit, in my view.

_________________________
Jeff

Top
#385163 - 02/10/12 12:01 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: westchesterguy]
LandOfShadow Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 684
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
There's too much "in the mix" in all that for me to know what to say in writing, here. (Without writing 20 paragraphs to scratch the surface) Not the least, the whole ball of wax that is the "SAA or gay?" thread elsewhere here.

Originally Posted By: westchesterguy

do any gay organizations even fund "male survivor org"?


I don't think that fits their purpose or "mission".

Being gay is in part a self-declared socially constructed identity in society. I don't think gay organizations have responsibility to make sure you are all "psychologically sound" in that declaration because that is vast and everyone's responsibility. Of course, homophobia external, can also be "internalized". Complicated. The "self" in "self-declared gay" (or GLBTQ etc) becomes lost and must be reconstructed, or constructed the first time if it was never developed as a child. That "sense of self" in psychology.

Jeff, I think you have a rare and particular sophistication in distinguishing the signals of "the self" in say one man, straight, with CSA and SAA, acting out with men and another man, without CSA and with SAA but so ashamed and internally homophobic he's secretive about having sex with men. I doubt anyone could distinguish those from external behavior. But a "self" can. Indeed must. Hopefully in adolescence, figure out who he is, an identity in the world and fit into all that successfully.

I'm a firm supporter of people at any age figuring that out for themselves with the option to have same sex relationships indistinguishable in equally to opposite sex relationships.

Not sure if this makes sense, or I understand you correctly. There's so much in all this.

_________________________
Et par le pouvoir d’un mot Je recommence ma vie, Je suis né pour te connaître, Pour te nommer
Liberté

And by the power of a single word I can begin my life again, I was born to know you, to name you
Freedom

Paul Eluard

Top
#385176 - 02/10/12 01:23 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: LandOfShadow]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: LandOfShadow
....Not sure if this makes sense, or I understand you correctly. There's so much in all this.


hm. have to admit i didn't quite follow. granted it is complicated - yet very appropriate for the title of this post.

we are talking about men - and what danger men really pose to kids. what wacky ideas do men have and if they can't even come to grips with themselves and their sexuality how the hell can they even be remotely considered safe to a child (just emotionally even)?

i also charge the gay community with "failing" its own -- because, in my humble view, they ought know better. gays are oppressed and i think if i could "group" the entire u.s.a. gay male community into one term it would be: sexual abuse victim.

i'm old enough to recall that in the 70s nambla was still part of the "gay community" in calif. bad timing...for there was horror in being raped by a man aligned with nambla (thus gay). now, while that has changed.... in theory... i believe we now have this motto: "think guys are cute? hooray! you are gay! please sign this petition for marriage equality." or "you gay? hooray! smile. don't kill yourself, life gets better!"

sigh.

the last time i atteneded a "general men's support group" at the nyc glbt center the conversation came around to sex with boys. there were about 10 of us attending, three were older men (+55) all of whom felt that childhood abuse had simply become an overraction... they had been sexualized by older men when they were boys. it was no big deal. that is how its done, they said.

they went to a movie theater or park where plenty of men wanted to have sex every saturday. this converstation took place in 2003 - not that long ago. i spoke too. told those three men they were about the age of the guy who raped me and what life had been like since. silence in the room. except for two young guys there in their 20s who were sobbing uncontrollably. another guy left in the middle of me describing being raped.

just how many gay guys were abused/raped as boys? how many adult men are a danger to young gay kids?

does the gay community really want to know?

i, personally, think not. keep status quo. that guy arrested for giving a b.j. to an undercover police officer in a park late night in anytown u.s.a. -- is just "in the closet" he'll come around... and join us... to sign our latest petition!


_________________________
Jeff

Top
#385233 - 02/10/12 10:42 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: LandOfShadow]
Sojourn Survivor Offline


Registered: 01/31/12
Posts: 8
I didnt accept it. However I really stepped back to re understand my reality. Oddly enough at about the same time i ended up in the hospital with some serious health problems. Nothing says give up on life than a detached spouse who wont discuss the issue and the backbone of your faith walking away from you. I had some epiphanies... The church soon changed pastors. The new pastor knows but he also knows I have little desire to really integrate or mix with the main group. Changes in my work now allow me to spend lots of time helping just regular everyday people... like all of us in here.

_________________________
Sojourn Survivor: I will rise, I will live, I survived!

Top
#385236 - 02/10/12 11:19 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: Sojourn Survivor]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6602
Loc: FEMA Region 1
WOW Westchester!!! I wish Roscoe and I could attend a meeting like that!!! heh!!! Oh goodness!!! Bring ear-plugs though...

_________________________
I'm "that guy."

Top
#385359 - 02/11/12 08:04 PM Re: How men are assumed to be a danger to children... [Re: phoenix321]
blacken Offline
Chatroom Moderator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 1309
Loc: Northern Ohio
Pheonix,
Where in the world did u get those stats that 33% of CSA survivors offend?!?
I work in the social work field in Ohio. We believe its more like 5 to 7%.



Edited by blacken (02/21/12 11:12 PM)

Top
Page 4 of 6 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 >


Moderator:  ModTeam, TJ jeff 

I agree that my access and use of the MaleSurvivor discussion forums and chat room is subject to the terms of this Agreement. AND the sole discretion of MaleSurvivor.
I agree that my use of MaleSurvivor resources are AT-WILL, and that my posting privileges may be terminated at any time, and for any reason by MaleSurvivor.