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#383135 - 01/22/12 06:05 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: prisonerID]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: prisonerID
...This evidence is there for anyone to see if they wish to see the opposite of how they feel towards any population.


maybe some of these answers are reflecting generational gaps.... i don't know, prisonerID. young gay guys today seem to get on fine with flashcards and a youtube video and build great relationships with hundreds of anonymous supporters whom they'll never touch in real life and all is "fine with the world."

i don't know everyone's age here. the evidence you are speaking of is there.... but "build and ye shall come," or post and "ye shall read"... does not work in the world that i come from.

today -- people read what they already know and consider themselves enlightened.

they congregate online where folks of their same ideology already agree. now, to me - that is just a ridiculous reflection and sign of our forever divided culture. and it achieves nothing.

since your location says oklahoma, maybe you'll appreciate this more than someone from ny. when i was 19, in 1983, landed in dallas, applied for a job and was asked during the interview -- because i was not married by 19-- "you ain't one of them fags are you?"

since i was "smart" at the time, my answer was "oh, no, sir."

i lied.

he hire me.

i rejoiced to have landed a job...

i was desensitized to homophobia, because i was not entitled to anything.

nonetheless, within two years, i was the best crew chief the company had....because i busted my butt. and that same boss-man liked me. he also, by that time, learned that i was indeed gay as the rumors spread i was being seen at bars on cedar springs. he didn't change how he used the word fag around me, however, he respect me enough to put his son on my crew so that i could teach him the business.

in my view, i had won. but i did it by serving my boss the best way i could -- and making him look good to our customers. i never carried a flag. i never threatened to sue. i never thought i was better than he. i laughed at his "fag" jokes.

he didn't realize how i learned more about him than he did me.... and maybe that is for the best.

i never once felt "entitled" to be treated fairly or equally simply because i existed nor did i demand a law to give me equal rights or protection from his homophobia. i had to earn his respect, the hard, old fashioned, face2face way and in so doing... i think "i alone" made him think that gay guys might not be quite as bad as he originally thought.

sigh. same path in 2010s, ironically enough ...my homophobic, rather abusive boss uses "me" as the example other employes should follow, and today that "great gay community" pitching the mainstream for their agenda and legal acceptance is no more interested in helping little old "me" as they were in 1983.

all i can handle is one homophobe at a time.

i almost think i have a more legitimate reason to dislike gay people than homophobes! different topic though.


_________________________
Jeff

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#383195 - 01/23/12 01:47 AM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: westchesterguy]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1287
Quote:
so, as i stated in the original quote: the gay community must fix their perception problem.

it is the gay community's responsibility to prove itself as "active," "passionate" members of the greater society... not simply demanding special treatment without giving back.

it is the gay community's responsibility to show society they no longer support nambla -- and any other fringe group of yore -- and to show its not just about being in a drag parade.

show society that the gay community is not about promiscuity, show that gays are commitment-oriented and hold high levels of morality.

yes, something is messed up, i agree with that term - but only as it is directed at lack of leadership in the gay community. fix that - homophobia vanishes.

Jeff, this response is not intended to be inflammatory in any way. But I have come to the gradual realization that I AM a member of the community in which you speak, and I can't help but feel your words are directed to ME, even though I'm sure you don't intend me in particular. Still, I cannot remain silent and hope you will allow for this rather equally assertive response. I intend no disrespect or ill-will, but it must be said...

Your story is admirable in that you could "take" the homophobia that was dished out to you. You took it like a man, and "won over" your old boss by simply living an exemplary life. You didn't stand up for yourself when you became - in essence - the butt of the "fag" jokes. Yet you disparage the "gay community" for being "no more interested in helping little old 'me' as they were in 1983." Well, like it or not, as a gay person, you ARE a member of the community. Who did YOU help?

The gay "community" is so much more than the carnival of bears, leather fetishes, and biker dykes you describe, and to define it by those elements alone is to buy wholesale into the shortsightedness of others. The gay community is in fact so deeply integrated into society that most people have accepted their members without even realizing who they are. They include civic leaders, emergency room doctors, pilots, soldiers, politicians, actors, financial analysts ... everyone. The community by and large is enormously discrete and quiet. You are a part of that silent group, as - to a large part - am I.

I myself am like you in that I do not draw attention to my sexuality. It is not a noticable artifact of my personality. But I am proud of who I am, and do not disconnect myself from my community. To buy into the stereotypes, ridicule the community based on it's most flamboyant characters, and quietly blend in may seem the more genteel approach, but make no mistake that community that you shun is the community to which you belong.

Quote:
i never once felt "entitled" to be treated fairly or equally simply because i existed nor did i demand a law to give me equal rights or protection from his homophobia.

It's not about entitlements. It IS about equal rights. We ask for nothing more. We should settle for nothing less. In the state in which I live, I can be legally fired if my sexuality were discovered. I can't marry the person I love, even though we have built a life together in a committed relationship for several years. If one of us dies, there may be nothing left for the partner after the siblings lay claim. If one of us gets critically ill or injured, the other can be legally barred from hospital visitation rights. And we in the USA have it easy. There are still several countries that execute citizens just for being gay.

And homophobia is toxic on so many other levels. It adds to the stigma of sexual abuse - it kept my mouth shut for years. My own sister was being abused by the same guy who was abusing me, and I couldn't turn him in without revealing myself as a filthy little 13-year old gay boy I was convinced at the time I was. So my sister suffered for my sins of silence, and I'm still trying to find forgiveness for myself. I will be silent no more.

Look deeper than the surface fluff of this community and you will see what the it really is. Harvey Milk was certainly not afraid to wear his sexual identity on his sleeve. His character, however, belied that seeming superficiality, having arguably done more to advance the cause of equal rights for the community than any single person since. Despite his immersion into the most defining aspects of the gay community, his personal courage and strength were extraordinary. He was not silent. He did not "blend". And gay people everywhere breath a little easier even today because of that.

I know one man who enjoys the pride festivities in our town and marches in the parade. I suspect that if you saw him, you may see him as just another ridiculous member of the "gay community" that hasn't done anything for you. What you don't see is that this man received numerous air medals, a couple of dfc's and a purple heart for leading F4 missions deep into North Vietnam. What you don't see is that this man - after having been discharged merely because they discovered he was gay - saved a full plane-load of passengers when an engine flamed out on his 737 right after take-off. I know this man - I know him very well, in fact. I know he never shares any of those stories with others. He's just your quiet, unassuming but sometimes celebratory gay. But I just flat read the citations. And perhaps his celebration has a different meaning now - the connection with a community that - in the final analysis - is where he always belonged.

Would you disparage him for being part of a spectacle? Perhaps. Yet one needs only open his eyes a bit more to realize he ought to salute him instead. There are many like him in the community - the depth can be amazing sometimes...

And when I see a gay soldier, risking everything in his life for US, asking a question at a political town hall debate some months back and being booed by the audience, it makes me question my own silence even more. Not one politician stood up for him. Not one. These are the same politicians who are vieing over a job in which they will be empowered to put this man in harms way for the sake of our national interests, yet he deserves not even the respect of a single word by them on his behalf. The silence of support for the gay community is deafening.

And so I would argue not to bemoan and disavow the community. Look deeper, and find your place in it. Don't be silent - speak out. And respect that others who have found their own place at least have the courage to be heard, knowing there is almost certainly more to them than meets the eye.

_________________________



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#383198 - 01/23/12 03:01 AM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: westchesterguy]
1lifenow Offline


Registered: 03/07/11
Posts: 393
Loc: west coast
Is this what I read with my own purple coloured glasses? you actually wrote this West Jeff?:

call it prejudice if you will, the gay community that the greater society "accepts to be true" is not who we are. i.e. flags, fetishes, leather, parades, bears, trans(whatever), depicted as such on tv or in movies. not us. and yet it is those exact same reasons why people snicker, post nasty comments online, go out of their way to condemn "gays" in communities around the country.

so, as i stated in the original quote: the gay community must fix their perception problem.

it is the gay community's responsibility to prove itself as "active," "passionate" members of the greater society... not simply demanding special treatment(3) without giving back.

it is the gay community's responsibility to show society they no longer support nambla(2) -- and any other fringe group of yore -- and to show its not just about being in a drag parade.

show society that the gay community is not about promiscuity, show that gays are commitment-oriented and hold high levels of morality.

yes, something is messed up, i agree with that term - but only as it is directed at lack of leadership in the gay community. fix that(1) - homophobia vanishes.


Holy shit, this rationale is so twisted:

1) Lets back extrapolate - by your reasoning, if "gays" were just good strong silent types sort of john wayne but without the funny walk, there should and would be no problems with homophobia. I don't think it worked in iran where last i checked there are no scheduled parades. Maybe those teenages who were hanged were those upitty type of homos - in your face fancy nancy bois. Also nazi germany, can't remember if the pink triangle preceded the rainbow but oh ya , gays were the last ones liberated cuz well they were probably too busy doing the bony emaciated bear fetish thing.

2) So many gay groups have denounced NAMBLA your assertion is frankly just bunk. However, The catholic churches own study suggested that the reason priests were pedophiles was all a result of the SWINGING 60's.
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011...eviant-priests/

3) OMG, no "special" treatment, not once not ever. But just the same treatment and basic human respect. I guess trying to get equal recognition for mariage is not showing the str8 community that the only thing on gays mind is promiscuity. Damn those mixed messages.


One of my buddies is a corrections officer. Unflamboyent gay guy who has earned the respect of his co-workers due to hard work and good character. He IS doing it in the trenches and has seen the fag jokes, and mistrust diminish not cuz he laughs along, cuz he is out there and they see how this man is not someone who is less than in any way. Oh and he is trying to organize representation for Corrections Canada to be in the next pride parade, like the RCMP, the fire department and Coast guard already are. He has the support of his co-workers.

I am sorry your experience has left you so jaded but please have some balance.

My son says that the common vernacular for the word "gay" being lame is too prevalent to change easily. Just like people use to bargain by "jewing you down" and "what? am i black?" meant hey dont i rate? Neither of these is ok anymore. So my son said his new pants were "flaming" cuz they were brightly colored and to him that meant crazy cool good. So thats what we need. A flaming end to the homophobia already, especially from within.

grant

_________________________
The need for love lies at the very foundation of human existence. Dalai Lama

WoR Barrie 2011

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#383203 - 01/23/12 06:06 AM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: Chase Eric]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: Chase Eric
....Who did YOU help?


i have given shelter and food to homeless, hustler gay kids as much and as often as was possible.

i have worked with two lgbt centers to develop male childhood sexual abuse awareness programs...but the greatest achievement was convincing them such a program was needed at all.

in the three screenplays i've written so far the gay character was the hero -- i.e. a strong, complex, upstanding male who was not in any way reinforcing society's stereotypes.

and whenever possible online --using my full legal name, which my boss does not know-- i defend gay males when those stereotypes are being used either in the news story or by the ignorant folks commenting anonymously. the dadt issue was big on that front.

some could say these points are unremarkable. i would agree in theory, depending upon where someone comes from -- however, given that for the past 30 years i have been one penny away from homelessness myself 50% of that time, including now, therefore my actions have been as limited as resources allow.

have any of those actions helped? with the exception of the last one, which of course can be briefly monitored until such comments are simply buried; i empower, i fund, create, set-up the initial stage and then let it go to survive on its own if its meant to.

has this thread, which is now 8 pages long, changed someone's view of gays or lessened their homophobia at all?

what is the measure of achievement with these posts?


_________________________
Jeff

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#383204 - 01/23/12 06:19 AM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: westchesterguy]
ModTeam Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 690
Gentlemen,

At this point, this topic appears to be causing more division and discord than it is healing, and its usefulness has run its course. With this in mind, the thread is being closed. We ask that the discussion not be carried to other threads unless or until those involved can treat each other with respect and civility. Any discussions that do not meet that basic criteria will be closed and further action taken if deemed necessary.

The Moderator Team

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Private messages sent to this account are checked irregularly due to personnel and time constraints. Please send messages to one of the moderators for the forum that is concerned by user name, or if there is no named moderator, send a PM to any moderator.

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