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#382807 - 01/19/12 10:44 AM Re: Homophobic because of... Scientific American [Re: lapchinj]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
Agreed, the focus is on our common bond and I could not have said better all that you have written. I'm glad that you're here and that you are healing here as I am too. I'm very glad that this thread has taken this turn.

I am also very sad why we've ended up here. I share that with you and everyone else on here.

_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#382860 - 01/19/12 04:26 PM Re: Homophobic because of... Scientific American [Re: Fidex]
1lifenow Offline


Registered: 03/07/11
Posts: 406
Loc: west coast
I started this thread as a follow up to what Edward Wong said about his homophobia cuz i wanted to present another angle.

I said this was another explanation but in no way said or implied that all homophobes were latent homosexuals. Fissy tickens and me both had that experience so it does happen and exists. I wanted to present more than just opinion or anecdotal evidence tho, so that I why I included the objective research study.

Originally Posted By: Fidex
So being sexually aroused by it means they must secretly 'want it'? Sounds familiar.


Whoa, Fidex I may be wrong, but I think your implying that somehow this is the same argument some give for justifing the abuse. 'The kid got a boner so its all good cuz they must secretly "want it"'.

I got a erection and in fact had an orgasm climbing a rope in the seventh grade. I was responding to direct genital stimulation and being suspended on that rope 20 ft in the air , seeing the teachers red face and hearing the taunt from the class bully was something still burned into my psyche. It does not mean I really want to join the rodeo.

This study was about adult men with fully formed personalities /brain develpment going beyond neutrality( doesn't affect me, so I couldn't give a shit) but vehemently denying any attraction yet their nervous system responding to visual stimulation suggested this was not so. So there is a clear disconnect here. Not like me on the damn rope.

I understand and respect your opinion but this in not the same thing at all. If I misunderstood, please let me know.

_________________________
The need for love lies at the very foundation of human existence. Dalai Lama

WoR Barrie 2011

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#382867 - 01/19/12 05:11 PM Re: Homophobic because of... Scientific American [Re: EdfromNYC]
1lifenow Offline


Registered: 03/07/11
Posts: 406
Loc: west coast
Ed from nyc, I love reading your responses cuz I like that you express your opinion with a real honesty that is not blunted by any political correctness. I agree that this thread has helped people to better see from the others vantage point. My closest friend in my MS group is a man who was raised RC, and he and I are the able to have such meaningful discourses despite such opposing views. Like you, I really value that, I think it helps a lot in recovery.

You originally said that being in your group has helped you seem gay men less as "they" despite you seeing them as other than the normal. I am not sure anyone is exclusively "the normal", cuz since we are all here we are all part of the normal. The other thing you have posted here and in other places is that your orientation is a combination of your CSA and your toxic relationship with your father. I just wanted to say that that puts a lot of presure on you, cuz no one can really say what the specific cause or reason for anyone's orientation is absolutely for sure. I agree it likely influenced it greatly, I think it would be short sighted to say it didn't.

You go on further to say you wish you would have been able to be in control in your first innocent sexual experience with another equally vulnerable person and not the tainted experience you had at the hands of an adult. I think all of us here wish that and we will never know the "what ifs". I think like you, we all mourn the loss of connection we never had with fathers and sometimes mothers that did not treat us as we should have been treated. We can't go back and unfuckup that parent-child relationship we can only, if given the opportunity, try and get it right with our own kids. I agree the point you made on connected fatherhood is absolutely true. But like Jeff said about his gay son, clearly disconnected/abusive parenting was not the cause of his son being gay. So ultimately you are right, people don't need fixing if they are not "gay-positive", we are not asking for that, just being neutral is perfectly ok.

Jeff(lapchinj), I love the balance and clarity you brought to the discussion here. Your insight, understanding and firm but kind responses are remarkablely balanced. I can only speak from my exerience, that being honest with my sons about my orentation has been one of the best things about my recovery. Seeing them accept me as a gay man without reservation and having a relationship based on real honesty has allowed us to become even closer. I would never tell anyone how or what they should do given your own circumstances, yet I cant but help wonder if both your son, and you would benefit from a shared trust. He may feel even more connected and accepted by a father "he doesnt even know is gay" and you may find that sense of acceptance of the real you as profound as I have. Again, I am sure your reality dictates your rationale for this. I just see so much compassion being given by you, I think it would be cool if you were able to receive some.

I was thinking that its often just the fear of the unknown that can cause makes people distrustful. I dont know which language but in it, the word for stranger and enemy is the same one. We are all strangers here but enemies we are not.






Edited by 1lifenow (01/19/12 09:18 PM)
_________________________
The need for love lies at the very foundation of human existence. Dalai Lama

WoR Barrie 2011

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#382876 - 01/19/12 06:52 PM Re: Homophobic because of... Scientific American [Re: lapchinj]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
just read everyone's comments - the energy on homophobia seems so misdirected, in my view.

why are so-called intelligent and enlightened men even discussing this? i do not understand this from fellow survivors, especially.

of course there is a story to go with my statement. i work for a homophobe and while i believe many who fear gays do have something inside that isn't so straight... my boss is clearly very straight.

but he'd fire me if he knew i was gay because god would demand it of him. (and as i've said on this board in the past - save the legal advice on discrimination for it truly is not in the cards and not in the work-at-will usa.)

however, in this case, he is under no stress since god is his guide. i, on the other hand, am probably as stressed out today after seven years with him as i was following the rape 33 years ago by a pedophile who had god as his guide too. that is quite a statement to make. but i'm stuck until i can find another job. at least as an adult i can drink and smoke and do things that help me with escaping stress created by the homophobes that rule this country for a few hours after work. i didn't know how to drink or smoke as a teen.

ironically, i see this as the score of life: homophobic pedophile 1, jeff 0. and current homophobic boss man 1, jeff 0. the future: homophobic life in the usa 1, jeff 0

there have been other instances too where i've infiltrated the homophobic elite. i get away with it because no one would ever believe i desire a man. (a completely different topic on stereotypes and expectations.) but i'm quite the angry, domineering dude when i need to be, thanks to recovery. i pound my fists on the conference table when i have too. i call my boss a fucking moron just as he calls me one --that in itself is probably strange by most business standards-- but in his mind a "fag" would never stand up to him the way i do. so i win, perhaps, 1/2 a point here and there.

but i know the limits. never ever be caught out in manhattan. never ever be caught with an ad. never ever be caught dating anyone. i'll write any straight, single guy here a $1,000 check if dating would risk your job! think about it.

he and the pedophile win. that's real life. those are real stats. and they were all preventable...if only we had cooperation.

if only we had some support... and to be honest i do not feel as though i do here.

so, in my humble view, any man today who thinks differently or unkindly about a man simply because he desires a relationship with another man, is fostering and empowering --both directly and indirectly-- exactly the same, but adult, sexual abuse we had as kids on guys like me now who are only trying to survive this unrewarding existence we call life.

i'm at a point now that i say if you are homophobic, perhaps it is best to keep it shut -- in the same way i have to bite my lip to keep food on the table.

_________________________
Jeff

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#382880 - 01/19/12 07:59 PM Re: Homophobic because of... Scientific American [Re: westchesterguy]
Magellan Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1402
Loc: California
I have a very short answer for now (and may add to it later)...

I hated that I was feeling homosexual feelings as a teenager. Then I realized that there were many others like myself, this is during the blossoming of the AIDS epidemic in San Francisco.

I decided to accept my sexuality. I made it a moot point. I just embraced it and followed through with it, while taking care of myself and seeking a deeper connecting with others.

I'm a survivor. I started working on my CSA issues a year ago. And more recently I've been questioning my sexuality again - is it a dysfunction of CSA, or inherent to me?

You know what? It doesn't matter. What matters is that I accept it. The path towards change is awareness, and then acceptance, and then action (if it is needed). Less drama, less judgment, and I get to enjoy a somewhat healthy sex life.

If I discover at some point that my native sexuality is actually, straight, that is okay with me too. At least I lived in acceptance all these years.

D

_________________________
It's a heroes journey, and you are the hero.

Loving Kindness Meditation will dramatically improve your spirits; give it a try for just 3 days: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz7cpV7ERsM

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#382884 - 01/19/12 08:20 PM Re: Homophobic because of... Scientific American [Re: Magellan]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: Magellan
....my native sexuality is actually, straight, that is okay with me too...


so glad for you magellan! if only all men in our culture would be "okay" with what we decided. but they are not. you are their hero. i am either their fetish or abomination.

_________________________
Jeff

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#382909 - 01/20/12 02:05 AM Re: Homophobic because of... Scientific American [Re: 1lifenow]
Fidex Offline


Registered: 11/09/11
Posts: 37
Originally Posted By: 1lifenow
I started this thread as a follow up to what Edward Wong said about his homophobia cuz i wanted to present another angle.

I said this was another explanation but in no way said or implied that all homophobes were latent homosexuals. Fissy tickens and me both had that experience so it does happen and exists. I wanted to present more than just opinion or anecdotal evidence tho, so that I why I included the objective research study.

Originally Posted By: Fidex
So being sexually aroused by it means they must secretly 'want it'? Sounds familiar.


Whoa, Fidex I may be wrong, but I think your implying that somehow this is the same argument some give for justifing the abuse. 'The kid got a boner so its all good cuz they must secretly "want it"'.

I got a erection and in fact had an orgasm climbing a rope in the seventh grade. I was responding to direct genital stimulation and being suspended on that rope 20 ft in the air , seeing the teachers red face and hearing the taunt from the class bully was something still burned into my psyche. It does not mean I really want to join the rodeo.

This study was about adult men with fully formed personalities /brain develpment going beyond neutrality( doesn't affect me, so I couldn't give a shit) but vehemently denying any attraction yet their nervous system responding to visual stimulation suggested this was not so. So there is a clear disconnect here. Not like me on the damn rope.

I understand and respect your opinion but this in not the same thing at all. If I misunderstood, please let me know.




"Single, Angry, Straight Male Seeks Same" and "Young homophobes have secret gay urges!" doesn't imply anything at all?
I just think it's strange that the author repeats the same tired rhetoric about all homophobes being latent homosexuals when the study only reported 26% of the studied homophobes as having this "determining" reaction.
The "defense" isn't just used in cases of CSA, either.


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#382921 - 01/20/12 10:46 AM Re: Homophobic because of... Scientific American [Re: 1lifenow]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
I'm glad you wrote what you did. I've been accused of being honest and saying what is on my mind many, many, MANY times. I am honestly learning to continue to do so but in a way that allows for everyone to have an equal say, not just me.

Your thoughtfulness and analysis of my posts, is helpful. I want to relate that I am on a learning curve of acceptance and opening my mind up. I agree that there is no "normal" and I am glad that I have been able to state my opinions here, see another side and know that we are all men here and our orientation is not important. Its not why we're here and if I am going to distinguish between homosexual men and heterosexual men, which I've been doing for way too long (mostly out of fear that I would be rejected for having had sex with men by other men, straight and gay), the end result is to cut off opportunities to connect with whoever I am supposed to connect with.

This forum is providing with space to deal with my anxieties about other men (straight or gay or whatever) and anxieties about my sexuality. I'm learning not to project, to speak more from the heart and look for things we have in common and not focus on the differences.

I'm grateful that I am not rejected for my lack of political correctness. It may raise others hackles at times but its not my intent to hurt; its my intent to heal but not by hurting others.

_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

Top
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