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#382829 - 01/19/12 01:17 PM NEED an answer PLEASE
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6367
Loc: 2 NATO Nations
This may seem like such a fundamental issue that I should have already resolved, but I have not.

I NEED to know why relatively few of us fall apart, have PTSD, deep debilitating ailments out of the millions of boys who have been sexually abused.

If you have an answer, thought or opinion, PLEASE leave it here.

Any of the professionals' input would be greatly appreciated. I have asked several Ts and always get a smokey walk into another subject.

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#382830 - 01/19/12 01:20 PM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Still]
Magellan Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1390
Loc: California
Simple and possibly "trite" answer:

Complex PTSD (as opposed to simple PTSD).

(I have complex PTSD).

D

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#382831 - 01/19/12 01:26 PM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Magellan]
Still Offline
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Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6367
Loc: 2 NATO Nations
Not trite...M. I worry though. I've turned down several radio and paper interviews since the 700 out of fear of this question. So, even in your answer, can we say "it snot always traumatic???" Cuz I fear that answer greatly. Is some of CSA non-traumatic??? I wanna leave the table for just asking that question!

As you may know, NAMBLA uses this little phenomenon as ammo. THAT makes me wanna puke. And I (a CSA survivor) just asked it for them!

The masses (the nermals) may actually come to this conclusion on their own. Where does that leave us??? I look at the upper-left and only see 9500 members. Simple math says there's millions.

EDIT: And if its "non-traumatic," is some CSA non-long-term damaging?
And can we please delete the entire thread when we have answers?



Edited by Robbie Brown (01/19/12 01:31 PM)
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#382835 - 01/19/12 01:34 PM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Still]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2572
CSA I think is ALWAYS traumatic. Each persons response to said trauma is different.

Why some who have experienced minor abuse have HUGE issues and others who experienced horrific abuse have little issues.... I haven't a foggy clue except that we all react differently and our brains cope/manage differently.


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#382836 - 01/19/12 01:53 PM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: JustScott]
KMCINVA Offline
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Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1552
Definitely different response for each individual. Also I believe the environment and any subsequent trauma or abuse can effect how one deals with the reawakening of the memories and pain.


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#382837 - 01/19/12 01:56 PM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: JustScott]
ACRoberts Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/07/10
Posts: 242
Loc: New Jersey (recently moved fro...
I totally agree with JustScott. I held it together for almost 20 years until I started to unravel.

On the outside, I have always looked like I had it all. It is what is on the inside that is important.

I have always felt like the little kid who was worth nothing more than to be his uncle's whore. I continue to work on the issues as I "peel each layer of the onion" as I like to put it. Still, on the outside I put on a good front. Unfortunately, I do this at times here at MS and at my survivor group led by Richard Gartner. It is hard to admit how frightened and traumatized I have been for most of my life.

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Allan
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#382861 - 01/19/12 04:40 PM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: ACRoberts]
Still Offline
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Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6367
Loc: 2 NATO Nations
Right.....all of the above....right.

But where are the millions like us? Why are we like this and not the balance of the abused? I'm not getting it...sorry. Not trying to be a pain.

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#382862 - 01/19/12 04:47 PM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Still]
Anthony39 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 345
Loc: Montreal, Canada
we never held it together and then unraveled. We played pretend, played house, husband, father, sons, brothers.............. and then we just couldn't anymore. Something's gotta give. So then reality hit hard in the face. We always knew there was something wrong.
I don't think a lot of us made it. There are a lot who didn't survive childhood, many got lost to drugs and alcohol, many more in jails, homeless, gone to war, who knows.

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#382863 - 01/19/12 04:48 PM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Anthony39]
Obi Offline
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Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 1287
Loc: kansas
*nods*...

tone hit it on the head....

the ones that you see here are the ones that have the better chances of making it...

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#382864 - 01/19/12 04:57 PM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Obi]
KMCINVA Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1552
Anthony39's response is right on from my perspective. I am learning that I buried the memories and this allowed me to pretend nothing happened--but always knew when the memories would make their way in through intrusive thoughts and nightmares. Then back they went until it was too much upheaval and torment it in my life and it unraveled. I could no longer push the memories down, they were drowning me. I was one of the lucky ones--I survived but did not fully live, sadly many were lost and did not make it. So now I face the memories and try to heal. As you can see everyone handles the trauma differently and having coping mechanisms to disguise the trauma.


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#382865 - 01/19/12 05:05 PM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Still]
F.A. Offline


Registered: 09/02/11
Posts: 229
Loc: United States
We fell apart when the abuse happened everything we knew has been torn apart.

We create a persona to survive the abuse one that is ok on the outside but not on the inside and will force ourselves to live our life if need be this way to cover up the shame.

Alcoholism, drug addiction, sex addictions, eating disorders, emotional disconnection the debilitating ailments all.


Originally Posted By: Robbie Brown
This may seem like such a fundamental issue that I should have already resolved, but I have not.

I NEED to know why relatively few of us fall apart, have PTSD, deep debilitating ailments out of the millions of boys who have been sexually abused.

If you have an answer, thought or opinion, PLEASE leave it here.

Any of the professionals' input would be greatly appreciated. I have asked several Ts and always get a smokey walk into another subject.


_________________________
F.A.

To be sick is to be fragmented. To be healed is to become whole, and to become whole one must be in harmony with family, friends, and nature" -Navajo-
Blog: http://csafresno.blogspot.com
Facebook: http://tinyurl.com/CSAFresno
My Story: http://tinyurl.com/78upvvu

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#382875 - 01/19/12 06:38 PM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Still]
timetested Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/26/11
Posts: 30
Since I am new at dealing with my own CSA experiences, I can't answer the question from that perspective. On the other hand, some of my other life experiences may have some hint.

I grew up in a community with many Holocaust survivors, and many of my closest friends had parents who went through the camps, etc. Later I worked on Holocaust related issues professionally, both in films I worked on and as a museum employee. As such I worked closely with survivors.

I bring this up not to compare CSA with the Holocaust. On the other hand, both experiences represent a very traumatic experience that, even if it has ended, leaves an indelible mark on its victims.

What I've learned from that is that people are incredibly resilient. We bounce back, rebuild, and go on with our lives with varying degrees of success. Once we've survived the worst, everything else seems trivial. Often, we push it back into a forgotten past. I can't tell you how many people I know who have never heard from their parents about what they experienced. It was a combination of shame and guilt that kept them from opening up, whether to therapists, their families, etc. Sounds familiar, eh?

I debated writing this, but there is another angle to the story as well. As early as high school I could tell automatically which of the people I knew had parents who were survivors and which did not. It is impossible to place a finger on what it was that set them apart, but it was there and we all knew it. I think it was that as stoic as their parents may have been, at least externally (and not all of them were; some were definitely not), there was a certain amount of anguish and pain that they carried with them and was picked up by their kids.

I can't help wondering if the victims of abuse pass on some of their pain to their children, whether knowingly or not.


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#382888 - 01/19/12 09:00 PM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: timetested]
Still Offline
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Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6367
Loc: 2 NATO Nations
Originally Posted By: timetested

I can't help wondering if the victims of abuse pass on some of their pain to their children, whether knowingly or not.


According to my T, yes.

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#382889 - 01/19/12 09:13 PM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Still]
pufferfish Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6815
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Robbie Brown

This may seem like such a fundamental issue that I should have already resolved, but I have not.

I NEED to know why relatively few of us fall apart, have PTSD, deep debilitating ailments out of the millions of boys who have been sexually abused.

If you have an answer, thought or opinion, PLEASE leave it here.



I think the answer is that there is a great variety of the depth of abuse. It could perhaps be rated just like earthquakes, where there is a system of 1 to 10 on the Richter Scale of severity. Many boys (and girls) only get abused from 1 - 4 on the abuse scale. They can go for much of their lifetime with only minor tremors. A level of 1 or 2 is not to be dismissed because there is misery and trouble there. Those who have a grade 5 or 6 on the abuse scale will have some major problems but the problems are amenable to solution. Those who get 7 - 9 on the abuse scale are in for major problems, but even there a lot of healing can be achieved with hard work and proper counseling. Medication may be required.

I believe I was probably about 7, maybe 8 on the scale. By this time I'm pretty free of depression and PTSD. My vision and reading problems are 90% cleared up. I'm still progressing.

The effects of the abuse are strongly dependent on the quality of family life in the home of the child.

Puffer




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#382890 - 01/19/12 09:41 PM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: pufferfish]
Sailor John Offline


Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 307
Loc: Newfoundland & Labrador
I think that what makes some of us never "lose it" depends on the support, if any we received around the time of the abuse and shortly after. I think that if you have good support in the immediate future it gives you a chance to get it off your chest then and also lets you know that there are way more good willing to help you out than bad people wanting to hurt you.

I kept my abuse bottled up for basically over 40 years. I did very well at keeping it hidden during a 30 year career but I was never comfortable with myself in different ways socially. I never realised that it was caused by my CSA.

Because my perp was my sperm provider, I never had a chance for the GOOD SUPPORT that I feel would have helped me immensely. If I'd been able to overcome the shame and fear, I know that one of my close friends parents would have taken me in and given the caring loving family that we all crave for. After all, I was practically family anyway. Not askig them ruined my life until I was 56 years old.

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#382895 - 01/19/12 11:09 PM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: pufferfish]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6367
Loc: 2 NATO Nations
Originally Posted By: pufferfish
there is a system of 1 to 10 on the Richter Scale of severity.


Grand....so where does that put me?

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#383737 - 01/28/12 06:29 PM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Still]
F.A. Offline


Registered: 09/02/11
Posts: 229
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: Robbie Brown
[quote=pufferfish]there is a system of 1 to 10 on the Richter Scale of severity.


I find that as victims to many times we try to deny ourselves the right to hurt and heal by looking at others and saying their abuse was worse than mine what do I have to complain about. It is not the amount or degree of abuse that affects us it is the fact we had our trust and childhood innocence taken from us by an uncaring person for their needs. It is the act of betrayal.


_________________________
F.A.

To be sick is to be fragmented. To be healed is to become whole, and to become whole one must be in harmony with family, friends, and nature" -Navajo-
Blog: http://csafresno.blogspot.com
Facebook: http://tinyurl.com/CSAFresno
My Story: http://tinyurl.com/78upvvu

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#383758 - 01/29/12 12:21 AM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: F.A.]
MrEdd Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/24/03
Posts: 317
Loc: Texas
As long as I didn't have a responsibility restricting me, geographic relocation served as a reset coping mechanism that let me dump stress and start over.
I say that acknowledging that I do have a sense of foreshortened future and periodically dabbled in prostitution - but those don't show. I looked okay. The prostitution I hid well and I chased wars.

Had I not embraced the responsibility of a husband and father, I might have run til I died, with nobody the wiser.

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Some Things are not problems to be solved, rather, they are facts which must be coped with over time.

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#383765 - 01/29/12 03:12 AM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: MrEdd]
men_of_hrts.dbw Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 301
Loc: Orchidland Big Island Hawaii
I held it together for three decades, there was a lot of untreated post-sexual assault trauma issues but when l disclosed what happened a hell broke loose and l was a mess with psychotic/neurotic conditions. Delayed PTSD...and everything coincided with the terror l survived, even the psychosomatic body memories.
Because l had really bad therapy provided by the Veterans Mental Health Care the esteem and confidence l had totally disintergrated rapidly. So did my ability to function and maintain my life.
Within two years l lost the business, home, possessions and even my coonhounds died. I was a mumbling psycho living in the streets without dignity or modesty and everyone thought l was a crack head since l went malnurished and lost forty pounds.
I kept a daily journal and it was a good thing since it documented the unbelievable amount of difficulty l had daily.
It still crushes and saddens me to recall how it could happen to me. Sometimes l wonder where and what my situation would be if l never disclosed the event.
But then again l also wonder where this journey for survivorship will lead me too.
One thing for sure is l am glad l found other survivors who showed me how to be one.
Thanks

_________________________
Doug>ASA Survivor (1x)
ECV 6001/MaTuCa Chapter 1849
E Clampus Vitus
"What Say the Brethren"
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#383818 - 01/30/12 12:18 AM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Still]
WriterKeith Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 929
Loc: southern California
Robbie,
My question is, why do you believe it is "relatively few?" I think of my three siblings and many others who suffered CSA and ASA who never sought professional help for the molestations they suffered. Every one of them acts out in different ways. The symptoms are most definitely there but are cleverly hidden from public view.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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#383820 - 01/30/12 12:26 AM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Still]
lapchinj Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1167
Loc: New York
Peace,Rainbows & Healing


Edited by lapchinj (03/17/13 11:31 PM)
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#383849 - 01/30/12 12:05 PM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: lapchinj]
Riley Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/11/09
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
Personally, I think it comes down to science. Why do some people come back from combat with relatively few effects and others come back with PTSD. I don't think it's right to rate abuse, abuse is abuse period. What's different between people is their brain.

I read somewhere (can't find the article now) that it may have to do with our natural levels of cortisol (the chemical that regulates stress). I read another that was studying genetics in relation to PTSD. Basically everybody is different and is effected differently. If you want I can give you access to a database of peer reviewed articles with a ton of information on it, just PM me.

If the perps really use the argument that some kids are not effected by it so they didn't do anything wrong then they are just crazy. You can compare it to firing a gun into a crowd. Not everyone will be injured but its still wrong because everyone in that crowd will be effected in one way or another. Some will be physically injured, some will be killed, and others will just deal with it in their own heads.


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#383922 - 01/31/12 09:27 AM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Riley]
lapchinj Offline
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Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1167
Loc: New York
Peace,Rainbows & Healing


Edited by lapchinj (03/17/13 11:31 PM)
_________________________

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#445202 - 08/23/13 12:43 AM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Still]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: O Kanada
"I look at the upper-left and only see 9500 members.
Simple math says there's millions."

Still, i have often wondered this myself.

probably, many never disclose, and spiral into drugs, despair, depression, danger and death.

maybe there are some that are 100% successful at denial, or suppression of memory.

i can't even figure out why i reacted the way i did, and continue to do so.

being violently raped by a serial killer should be about 8 or 9 on the "richter scale" and yet by the time that happened, i had been abused and neglected so much for so long, that it barely registered.
i think i can hardly feel anything anymore.
i am extremely hard on myself.
this makes it very difficult to relate to other survivors.

sometimes it bothered me during group therapy when i had to listen to some guy who is constantly in a state of self pity and misery, week after week, whining, depressed, and resistant to solid proven recovery techniques... when i know that person has only been fondled once... that is... no violence, no incest, no threats, no repetition, no penetration...

but there is a real danger when one attempts to compare experiences.
we are all designed differently by DNA.

i have lived through things that no person should even have to witness. stuff that could not even be properly depicted in a movie.

and yet... here i am... happier than i deserve to be.

i guess, i can't answer your question, still.
sorry.
_________________________
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War
Love
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#445217 - 08/23/13 03:16 AM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Still]
Onesimus75 Offline


Registered: 08/22/13
Posts: 158
Loc: Minnesota
I have no solid data on this. But I feel strongly that many more survivors have trauma than they ever admit.

But not all the trauma looks the same.

We're all differently able, in our own ways, and differently wounded.

But one of the differences is that the men who come to places like this, or get help elsewhere have the self-awareness and courage to face their demons rather than pretend there's nothing under the bed waiting to get them.

I think the difference is like the difference between the crimes reported and the crimes occurring.

Abused first at 11, then at 13, then at 16, and no one ever knew. All six of my siblings thought I was the 'virginal' one when I was acting out with my friends every time I could, so sure that they couldn't really want me around unless I was a lot older, or providing sexual favors.

So here I was living in trauma all the time, and no one saw it.

That was from 11 until about 30 or so when my T pointed out that I HAD the trauma, why not deal with it.

I only wish I had better words to encourage you that you're not worse, less, or weaker than any of those others. You're more aware, and honest, and that means more healing than all the guys who can't face it, bury it, hope it goes away.

(Don't we all know how well that works...)
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#445219 - 08/23/13 03:35 AM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Still]
Jacob S Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 591
I think about this when I see Scott Brown or Tyler Perry or my own abusers (who were also abused kids) all go on to have successful lives. I should be happy when I see a list like this http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=48465&Number=354274 but instead I just get mad. As awful as it sounds, my only hope is that they are secretly miserable. I know that sounds messed up . . . I want fellow victims to be miserable? Well, I could deny that but lets be dangerously honest for a second: yes I do. Because if so many people who went through this are ok and successful and I'm not, then it comes back to the idea that I really am the problem.

So am I just looking for an excuse to not heal? I don't think so. But I do wonder why I seem to be having such a rougher go of it. How can I call myself strong when other people are out there dealing with this and holding down six figure jobs at the same time? Yes we are all different. Yes we all struggle in different ways. But Still is absolutely right in the first post in this thread that it seems like so few of us react this way. Is there something wrong with me that I can't just put it as a footnote in my autobiography and move on?
_________________________
Like a spent gladiator
crawling in the colosseum dust
who can count on his remaining limbs
all the people he can trust.
Like the one who stands behind him
cheering him on
Estatic when he stands defiant,
wild with abandon when he's gone

just stay alive.
do whatever you need to.
you are worth it.

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#445222 - 08/23/13 03:59 AM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Jacob S]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: O Kanada
i totally get where you are coming from, JacobS!

i keep thinking that the problem lies with my lack of something.

even when i am happy, which i have been for many years, i still cannot escape the memories.

i wish that's all it was... a footnote!

but here i am, 40 years later, still dwelling on it.
the difference is... it does not seem to bother me.
what really bothers me is the fact that i will never be "normal".
that interferes with my ability to connect and communicate with friends and family.
i like who i am.
the problem is, others do not.
people who care about me are always telling me to get over it, move on, etc.
they do not see the damage, so they can't understand why i behave as if i am damaged.
i do not believe that the damage will ever be repaired to the point that i will completely restored to "normal".
i am suspicious and cautious, and i get labeled as paranoid.
i am stoic, and i get labeled as heartless.
when i urge restraint, i get labeled as control freak.
when i assert my boundaries, i am labeled a power tripper.
when i attempt to exercise my authority, i am called a terrorist.
and when i lose my temper... well, it ain't pretty.

whatever.
i still love everyone.
i just wish they would return the favour.
but i no longer expect it.
_________________________
Victor|Victim

War
Love
Poetry

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#445234 - 08/23/13 08:26 AM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Still]
SoccerStar Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 915
Loc: New York
By reading the crowd here at MS I've noticed two very strong trends:
1. The overwhelming majority of members here had unsafe home lives. Abusive / neglectful parents and caregivers.
2. Almost 100% without exception NOBODY HERE had quick disclosure / rescue / criminal resolution of the abuse. Either things went on for years, or they weren't believed, or the perp was never punished, or all of the above.

The lack of SAFETY and lack of JUSTICE combine to stew together a whole mess of emotional nitroglycerine. There must be victims out there who knew they were loved, who escaped quickly, were believed, and saw the entire legal system announce that they were Right and Good and the perp was Wrong and Bad, followed by prompt therapeutic intervention at an early age.

Don't get me wrong, I would not want to have the experience of Ben Ownby - kidnapped at gunpoint and sadistically raped 17 times in 4 days. But... he was then rescued, and saw the perp arrested and cuffed and sentenced, was scooped up by loving parents and a squadron of therapists, and cheered and encouraged by friends, neighbors, and distant supporters and well-wishers. That sense of justice and protection and validation, plus early intervention therapy, has to help.

And I don't know a single person at MS who experienced it.


If there are CSA situations in which the encounters are:
-Non-violent / non-painful / non-threatening
-Mutually pleasurable
-Not a forcible secret
-Mutually avoidable / end-able at any time

--then I could see many of the stereotypical aftereffects of abuse not taking hold. That doesn't mean it's not wrong, it means the biggest and worst avenues for wrongness to leave prolonged psychological damage have been removed. The relationship is inappropriate but might not be damaging.

I don't think it is the majority of cases. I'd say its more like one-tenth of one percent. But still, if you extrapolate the statistics globally, you end up with tens of thousands of men who should be "okay" with it. There are also very different gradients of "okay." I know two guys who do not identify as CSA victims yet both of them had experiences that fit on the scale. One of them had been 13 and a ragingly horny bisexual when, so he says, he seduced his dad's friend. Another was 6 and was tricked by a cousin over 10 years older into giving a blowjob. Both of them swear to be happy, functional, and trauma-free. However.... I "know" them through porn chat sites wherein straight-identified guys look to mess around with each other. So, there's that sorting effect. In addition, one of them is a heavy drug user and highly promiscuous, and the other tries to set up anonymous high-risk encounters and actually uses the word "RE-ENACT." Dead giveaway.... but both claim to feel okay with what happened. Consciously at least.


There's also a somewhat well-known autobiography of a Dutch author whose parents hosted a U.S. GI during WW2. At the time the boy was about 14 and lonely, the GI less than 5 years older than that. The GI noticed and capitalized.. but the now-grown Dutchman reflects that he only ever found it friendly and enjoyable, and the American hadn't even asked him to keep it a secret (probably because he knew his deployment date and that he could just walk away).


After I was raped I felt no conscious aftereffects. I'd blocked out nearly all of it and dissociated / sterilized the rest. There WERE aftereffects but I didn't consciously add it all together and I kind of just figured I had quirks about myself just like everybody else does and should get used to it. I was HAPPY and felt totally undamaged for 22 years. One seriously unwithstandsbly bad year ruined everything. If things had been different I think I could have obliviously strolled, whistling, straight into the graveyard, having never given a conscious care to the matter.

How many other people block things out - and have them STAY blocked? Suffer aftereffects but don't get where they came from and so just sort of shrug and live around them? Some non-trivial number I'd say.


Those who WEREN'T safe at home, DIDN'T get justice, DIDN'T get help early, and COULDN'T wall off the pain forever.....

.....come here.



Matt


_________________________
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"Don't think it hasn't been a little slice of heaven just because it hasn't!" --Bugs Bunny

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#445237 - 08/23/13 08:34 AM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: SoccerStar]
Suwanee Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/30/12
Posts: 691
Loc: Southeast USA
Matt,

Chicken pox | shingles

Will
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#445244 - 08/23/13 09:09 AM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: victor-victim]
txb Offline


Registered: 02/03/13
Posts: 183
Originally Posted By: victor-victim

sometimes it bothered me during group therapy when i had to listen to some guy who is constantly in a state of self pity and misery, week after week, whining, depressed, and resistant to solid proven recovery techniques... when i know that person has only been fondled once... that is... no violence, no incest, no threats, no repetition, no penetration...


I think if your life has been good and happy and you have parents and people around you who care about you, then when something like that happens it can smash your life into pieces. When you grow up expecting the worst then maybe you are sort of prepared when it does happen? Something happened to me recently and I said to someone 'it wasn't a big deal, it was just sexual assault' I think that sounds pretty messed up. A girl I know had something really minor happen to her. I don't even know if it could be classed as sexual assault. That was a couple of years ago now and she's pretty much in the same state as the guy you mentioned. I do feel sorry for her because everyone thinks she should be over it or it shouldn't bother her because it wasn't what they considered serious.

Jacob, I totally get what you are saying. I suppose I am glad for those people that they were able to become famous or successful, but it makes it seem like either they are super-human, or they are normal and there is just something wrong with me. I especially HATE when famous people say things like their abuse helped make them who they are today or made them a stronger person or whatever. I just HATE that. I wouldn't let abuse take the credit for anything that might be positive about me. Sometimes bad things do happen where they turn out to be a good thing in the end, but this isn't one of them.

Sorry, I forgot what the actual question was.

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#445245 - 08/23/13 10:05 AM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: txb]
Jay1946 Offline


Registered: 08/08/13
Posts: 76
Loc: Miami, Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: txb
I think if your life has been good and happy and you have parents and people around you who care about you, then when something like that happens it can smash your life into pieces.

Txb:

I found your statement very insightful. I only remember one incident of csa, but I'm now realizing that it had such a deep and negative impact on me (I was 9 years old) because I had a very loving and safe family environment. I had no reason not to trust a teacher at the Catholic grammar school I attended. The csa shattered the safety of that world for me, forever.

_________________________
Jay

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#445248 - 08/23/13 11:26 AM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: txb]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: O Kanada
Originally Posted By: txb

I suppose I am glad for those people that they were able to become famous or successful, but it makes it seem like either they are super-human, or they are normal and there is just something wrong with me. I especially HATE when famous people say things like their abuse helped make them who they are today or made them a stronger person or whatever. I just HATE that. I wouldn't let abuse take the credit for anything that might be positive about me. Sometimes bad things do happen where they turn out to be a good thing in the end, but this isn't one of them.


you just described my life.

while i was "successful" and "famous" i was very occupied and busy and the social status made me feel as if i had beaten the past.
when i quit touring, quit performing, and focused on my family, i found out that the abuse was still there, and i had done nothing to deal with it. so for the last 7 years, i have been totally mentally emotionally spiritually relapsing.
the hard exterior i had created for myself simply disintegrated. the performance persona which i had hidden behind for decades was no longer there to protect me.
the violent performances were no longer there to exorcise my demons. i could not longer act out my rage on stage.

it was like starting over from scratch.
i had to rebuild my foundations, because they were poorly constructed.
my entire life had been a Band-Aid solution, while i was mistakenly thinking i had overcome my crappy childhood.

the triggers really went off when my kids started hitting puberty. i became extremely protective and some might even say paranoid. this was based on a deep fear that something sexually abusive would happen to them if i did not remain vigilant. my behavior became a problem between my family and me, and i had to back off on my desire to save them.

this was when i started getting into the bible. i think the bible is the only thing holding me together right now. i have not been sexually abused (without my consent) since i was in my teens, i really got my life together by 30, and since then i have had the almost perfect life.

and yet i still suffer at the age of 52.

WTF!!!!

and strangely enough, i always credit my abusive past with my current personality. i always say that. if it wasn't for the CSA i wouldn't be who i am, and i like how hard and driven i am.

the good thing is...
from communicating with other survivors on this site, i am beginning to realize which parts of me are the original me and which parts are the typical results of the CSA.
i am learning who i really am inside this role.
_________________________
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#445255 - 08/23/13 12:47 PM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Still]
concerned_husky Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/29/12
Posts: 585
Thanks for bumping this victor-victim, this is an incredible thread...

Until today, I casually brushed off any good qualities I thought I had as the results of my abuse. I told myself it made me stronger, a better person. Now I'm thinking, what a load of shit. Complete bullshit. Thanks for making me see this. Abuse robbed me of self-esteem, confidence, normalcy, happiness, a healthy sexuality and development. It got me depressed, it threw me into addictions, it got me involved with even MORE abuse. THAT's the legacy of abuse. In some twisted way I used to think I should be grateful for all the suffering. Grateful, for suffering??? REALLY??? This really is a "holy shit" moment for me, because for the first time it's hit me hard how absurd this train of thought is. Abuse didn't make me into a strong person; I WAS a strong person to begin with, that's why I'm damn well still here. You're right, txb - abuse deserves no credit for anything positive in us. If anything, abuse hindered (perhaps as far as destroyed) its full, natural and unfolding development.

Originally Posted By: Still
I NEED to know why relatively few of us fall apart, have PTSD, deep debilitating ailments out of the millions of boys who have been sexually abused.


As for the original question, as some have already mentioned, I think 'we' (on MS) could actually represent a minority that did not fall apart. We've come here to seek help and deal with our past; I imagine millions out there who have fallen into denial, acting out and addictions. So many things also go into how one reacts to abuse - the nature of the abuse (age, duration, gender of abuser, relationship with abuser, etc.), support network, therapy, culture, genetics, brain chemistry, and so on. I think it'll always be tough to answer this one.
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#445537 - 08/26/13 10:39 PM . [Re: Still]
JoeSmith Offline


Registered: 05/03/13
Posts: 129
.

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#445539 - 08/26/13 11:00 PM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: JoeSmith]
KMCINVA Offline
Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1552
You are so correct. So many factors influence how a child reacts then and later in life from the CSA. Why some develop PTSD, others drug and substance abuse, some isolation, some sadly suicide is influenced by genetics, environment, reaction to stress and so many unknown factors. I have asked why did I live and not take my life? No one can say how CSA effects a life and sadly so many tell you it is not real. Tonight I heard Ty Carter, who was awarded the Medal of Honor today. He spoke how he once thought PTSD was not real until he lived through a trauma of war that affected him so deeply and he is being treated for PTSD. He said until you live it do not judge it. Sadly many judge us without knowing anything about PTSD.

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#445562 - 08/27/13 08:12 AM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Still]
traveler Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 3319
Loc: back in the USA
Greg - please calm down and stop the sarcasm and name-calling. He wasn't talking about you personally. And you apparently have no idea who you are talking about or what he has been through.
_________________________
We are often troubled, but not crushed;
sometimes in doubt, but never in despair;
there are many enemies, but we are never without a friend;
and though badly hurt at times, we are not destroyed.
- Paul, II Cor 4:8-9

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#445568 - 08/27/13 09:38 AM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Still]
Obi Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 1287
Loc: kansas
.


Edited by Obi (08/28/13 09:31 AM)
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#445574 - 08/27/13 10:36 AM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Still]
SamV Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 5941
Loc: Talladega, Alabama, USA
Originally Posted By: Obi
I do ask that before anyone goes off on what's posted is to ask the poster for more clarification. we need more people to understand and listen than to divide ourselves even more. we all need to be believed in and validated.
Well said, thank you Todd.

Sam
_________________________
MaleSurvivor Moderator Emeritus 2012 - 2014

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#445600 - 08/27/13 03:10 PM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Still]
blacken Offline
Chatroom Moderator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 1211
Loc: Northern Ohio
Quote:
I NEED to know why relatively few of us fall apart, have PTSD, deep debilitating ailments out of the millions of boys who have been sexually abused.


I don't agree that this is a absurd question at all. I see it as a good question to ask.

1) Many guys have little understanding of the scope of this issues (Child Sexual Abuse). For many new members that sign up daily, this is All new. They really only have some awareness of their own past.

2) Even for those that do gasp the scope of the issue, we only see the other members here & maybe a few at a group session. And from this perspective, 11,000 out of 50,000,000 seams like only a few.

3) there are millions of war vets & CSA vets that are one in the same.

4) the vast majority of CSA vets, have never sought treatment for a million different reasons. But they suffer non the less. They haven't found their way here, yet their suffering is still real, it's just unseen by us here.

5) each one of us has suffered differently, yet we share similarities also. PTSD, clinical depression, anxiety, sleeping problems, low self-esteem, displaced anger, trouble forming relationships, trust issue, same sex attraction, memory loss, intrusive thoughts, nightmares, sex addiction, no sex drive, various dissociate disorders, extroverted, introverted, failed marriages, ....the list goes on for quite a while. we dont have all, yet we all have some.

6) I Would agree that
A) the severity of the abuse suffered is not all the same
B) the effect on our life is not all the same
C) we often underestimate the effect the abuse has had on our life.

7) I would NOT agree that
A) we should grade suffering levels
B) that my (or anyone's) suffering has to meet someone else's approval for me to be able to express that suffering. I (or anyone) should not have to meet certain criteria to be allowed to suffer to a certain extent.
C) I (or anyone) has to Prove they had it 'bad'.

8) Some of us have a higher tolerance for some things than others. Some are scared of bugs, others like them dipped in chocolate. Some are afraid of heights, others sky dive. Some the sexual acts effected them more than the words. For other the verbal abuse effected them more than the beatings.

The bottom line is:
For some, being fondled once at 14 had just as devastating an effect, as being raped 150 times from age 3 to 20 for someone else.
We should only reflect upon how OUR past has effected OUR life, & seek to learn from each other how to change OUR life for the better, from here on out.
_________________________
Everyone is a genius! If you were to judge a fish, by its ability to climb a tree,
it would think it was stupid all of it's life.
~Albert Einstein

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#445608 - 08/27/13 04:47 PM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Still]
Castle Offline


Registered: 10/03/09
Posts: 727
Loc: NJ
Taking my toys, and heading home.


Edited by Castle (12/18/13 07:52 PM)
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My posts can self destruct at any time..read them while you can.

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#445655 - 08/28/13 12:14 AM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Still]
genedebs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/12
Posts: 283
Loc: MO
Dear Still et al

Just some basic statistics. Yes, if 1 in 6 boys is a victim of childhood sexual abuse (this data was developed in the "western world" approximately 80,000,000 individuals) there are millions with the experience. About 30,000,000 have drug and alcohol histories. During their active use, they are mostly in denial and have not yet begun to seek help or open themselves to "the healing journey."

About another 10,000,000 are still children (under 18) and most have not yet begun to deal with any of their traumas.

About 20% (16,000,000)are acting in ways which would be defined as depression or personality disorders. The assistance they are getting (if any)generally relate to behavioral therapy and do not directly address trauma. According to Terry Real most of these individuals deny their experiences would or should be classified as trauma.

Of the other 24,000,000 the percentage is unlikely to be greater than the proportion of individuals seeking help for their alcohol or drug abuse. This brings the number down to between 120,000 and 240,000. Why you would expect a higher proportion of trauma victims to acknowledge their needs, problems, and willingness to participate is simply a hopeful wish. But there is no data to suggest there would be a higher ratio.

This would indicate that between 5 and 10% of all of us who are willing or able to truly address our concerns are here at M S

Another 5 - 10% are suicide victims, in mental or other hospitals because of unsuccessful attempts.

As you may have noticed the M S activities are all in English. About 50% of these individuals do not speak English.

Now why does the other 30% (between 36,000 and 72,000) seek other sources of help than M S?

Then we can begin to discuss issues like how the csa affected them, their genetic make up, their limbic system, the sociological and psychological supports they experience in the families of origin or their current families.

Actually, I am amazed there are so many of us here.

When I was 45, sober for three years, I explained that I had never been severely ABUSED, they never broke my bones (of course my broken nose didn't count, that was cartalige). The process not just of acknowledging trauma, but accepting there is something to be done about it, in addition to medication or drinking to oblivion, and communicating with anyone about this (when we know-or have learned- we will be demeaned for bringing it up)is against all odds.

We all have different stories and we all are just the same.

I hope this is helpful.

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#445661 - 08/28/13 01:14 AM . [Re: Still]
JoeSmith Offline


Registered: 05/03/13
Posts: 129
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#445675 - 08/28/13 07:53 AM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Still]
traveler Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 3319
Loc: back in the USA
Greg - I appreciate your gesture of apology and explanation. You have my respect for that. And my compassion for your own issues. I can only imagine your particular variety of abuse since it was not my experience - but in no way would I discount or dismiss it. But because it is not an experience I know first hand I tend to keep silent about it - as I do with those abused as adults. I would guess that others here may do the same. Hopefully "we" survivors would not treat one another with the same callousness and lack of empathy as the rest of the world. Though you did receive somebacklash for the way your post was perceived- this is the mature and healthy kind of give and take that helps us all to grow and learn from one another. I am sure that you will receive much more respect and consideration for having made things right.

Thank you,
lee


Edited by traveler (08/28/13 07:54 AM)
_________________________
We are often troubled, but not crushed;
sometimes in doubt, but never in despair;
there are many enemies, but we are never without a friend;
and though badly hurt at times, we are not destroyed.
- Paul, II Cor 4:8-9

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#445679 - 08/28/13 08:27 AM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Obi]
Still Offline
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Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6367
Loc: 2 NATO Nations
,
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#445683 - 08/28/13 08:50 AM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Still]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6367
Loc: 2 NATO Nations
*********TRIGGER WARNING content in invisible ink:**********

Greg need not apologize for ANYTHING. He read the question and request for opinion as he read it. He reacted as he reacted. I truly appreciate his original answer. It brought in some great analogy and angles of thought.

The original question posed gave anyone and everyone ample license to dissect and examine, or rant with emotion....honest emotion.

Though Greg is a survivor, his response reflects the angle or view-point in which MANY people may see me, you...us. Why did Tim fall apart like that? Poor Jane! My God...it happened SO long ago...he must have other problems. He really ought to suck-it-up and man-up.

Greg's original reply is actually a continuation or expansion of my question. There are many great explanations. Bio-chemical, Psycho-chemical, genetics...etc., all bring me an answer.

I'm finding however, that society has little tolerance for ANY adult male who falls apart over something that happened long ago...regardless of (REGARDLESS OF) the who, what, when, where, how of any of our case histories and/or recounts.

Though we would LOVE to respond to the turkeys of our own environs with verbal pictures of "how would YOU deal with a memory of (invisible ink follows) a dick up your ass three times a week, and having to ditch your undies before you get home, we don't. We spare them...or its too shameful an image to actually hit a civilian with.

But Greg....I asked for thoughts and replies. What you wrote was perfect! I'm sorry if it elevated your blood-pressure at all.
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#445685 - 08/28/13 08:59 AM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Still]
ThisMan Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/22/13
Posts: 767
Loc: upper south
I have known others who had similar abuse of one kind or another. I am quite certain they struggled, as did/do I. Several were alcoholics or drug users. One I knew fell into the pattern of escapism by moving relentlessly from location to location. One guy was a simple workaholic. A couple of guys I've known at the gym lost themselves in excessive exercise. I have a close friend who lost himself in spirituality... and prescribed narcotics. Everyone deals and everyone remembers... it is impossible for me to believe otherwise. Check out the bars, you'll find men like us. Check out the on-line apps, you'll find men like us. Check out the churches and you will find men like us. We are 1 in 6 of every male we meet. And 1 of 6 of every male is dealing with the trauma of abuse in their own way. I think perhaps we are more aware of how to receive help than most, and MS is one of those avenues.

All of this to say that I am almost certain the effects of Sexual assault on men have made a deep and lasting impression. We have all been altered. And if we go back to Gene's statistics, which are fascinating, millions of men are dealing with the ptsd and personality disorders, with addictions and ill-determined behaviors. We just show our scars in different ways. And we are aware of each other through MS.

Hey, JoeSmith- thanks for the apology to the readers and to Still. Means a great deal.


Edited by ThisMan (08/28/13 04:23 PM)
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#445686 - 08/28/13 09:00 AM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Still]
Obi Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 1287
Loc: kansas
.


Edited by Obi (08/28/13 09:29 AM)
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#445730 - 08/28/13 01:46 PM . [Re: Still]
JoeSmith Offline


Registered: 05/03/13
Posts: 129
.

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#445734 - 08/28/13 02:11 PM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: ThisMan]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6367
Loc: 2 NATO Nations
Originally Posted By: ThisMan
I have known others who had similar abuse of one kind or another. I am quite certain they struggled, as did/do I. Several were alcoholics or drug users. One I knew fell into the pattern of escapism by moving relentlessly from location to location. One guy was a simple workaholic. A couple of guys I've known at the gym lost themselves in excessive exercise. I have a close friend who lost himself in spirituality... and prescribed narcotics. Everyone deals and everyone remembers... it is impossible for me to believe otherwise. Check out the bars, you'll find men like us. Check out the on-line apps, you'll find men like us. Check out the churches and you will find men like us. We are 1 in 6 of every male we meet. And 1 of 6 of every male is dealing with the trauma of abuse in their own way. I think perhaps we are more aware of how to receive help than most, and MS is one of those avenues.


One time when I was a guest (years ago) of a locked-ward, I got to know each and every patient (of both genders). Of the approximate 12 men in the ward at that time....12 of them were sexually abused as kids. They were ALL there for alcohol problems. I was there for safe-keeping only.

In the nearly-hourly group sessions in the ward, the Ts would occasionally suggest we seek-out the root reason for alcohol and drug abuse...and suicide attempts. If I or any MALE there raised their own CSA as the root-cause, they were shut-down immediately with "we are simply not equipped to deal with that here."

But we are equipped to deal with substance abuse ... and suicide ... but not the reason for it ... though we are supposed to deal with the reasons for it...

I would ask (on occasion) "what sort of equipment do we need...I'll buy it."
_________________________
Jesus Loves The Hell Outta Me!

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#445742 - 08/28/13 03:53 PM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Still]
Obi Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 1287
Loc: kansas
joesmith,

it's all good... not a problem...

we all get triggered from time to time.... it happens...

couple of good things from it...

1. you recognize it. that is good... that means you can go forward.

2. you spoke out about how you felt... that's also good because so many struggle to even find their voice..

stay strong.. you'll get through it! smile
_________________________
live another day. climb a little higher.

my story

my vlog

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#445767 - 08/28/13 06:15 PM ! [Re: Still]
Smalltown80sBoy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 2217
!


Edited by Smalltown80sBoy (02/28/14 09:32 PM)

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#445771 - 08/28/13 06:54 PM Re: NEED an answer PLEASE [Re: Smalltown80sBoy]
Suwanee Offline
Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/30/12
Posts: 691
Loc: Southeast USA
Gary, great response!

Originally Posted By: Smalltown80sBoy
Overachieving can be an effect of abuse. Are those people happy? Probably not. Being an overachiever isn't necessarily bad, but I think a lot of people overachieve so they don't have to stop and think about how fucked up they are.
So true.

Originally Posted By: Smalltown80sBoy
I think we all respond to trauma in different
ways...
Yeah, it even changes over time.

Originally Posted By: Smalltown80sBoy
Recovery isn't for wusses. It's about digging into the dark place that many of us have been avoiding or trying to medicate away for years. It takes guts to put down those crutches and put up our dukes. So bravo to all of us for facing our demons.
True again. The proverbial wall is out there. Every survivor will hit it. The question is, when? The next question is what next?

Will
_________________________
Cruel Summer
My Journal

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Ruins of a past unknown-

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