Newest Members
beatcook, MassGuy, wiresguy1, AustinChemist, wild_turky
12276 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
4113 (60), Andre M, (36), catchup22 (62), jim OCA 7 (57), sidhearthur (55), SkyClad (65)
Who's Online
2 registered (ethereo222, 1 invisible), 17 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
12276 Members
73 Forums
63164 Topics
441711 Posts

Max Online: 418 @ 07/02/12 07:29 AM
Twitter
Page 3 of 4 < 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
#383515 - 01/26/12 09:29 AM Re: Understanding F & F Forum Purpose? [Re: Dar]
lucylives Offline


Registered: 04/07/11
Posts: 357
Awesome Goodhope. I agree with so much of what you wrote. U too, hero.

Hero's name says it all, doesn't it?

We all want to be there for our spouses but the devasatation is so great to find out all the ways we have been betrayed.

After what survivors have been through in their lives, they should understand our pain, our devastation. The only difference is that they were aware of what was happening and we weren't. Many of us were in the dark.

If there is ever any question about our pain, know this.....

I was raped when I was younger. I thought he was going to kill me. The fear was so great when I tried to scream, nothing would come out. I was paralyzed with fear.

As hard and scary and traumatic as that was, the things my husband has done are harder to handle, scarier and more traumatic. The things he has done to me, behind my back, are worse. That guy was a stranger, my husband is supposed to love me. That betrayal is worse.

Maybe that will give everyone a little insight into my pain and devastation. I am sure some spouses can relate so please forgive us when we don't act exactly perfect or word things exactly perfect. We have been thrown into some extraordinary situations, incomprehendable situations and the emotions are very raw.

For you survivors who have helped me so much, thank you for not taking anything I say or do personally. It is not.


Top
#383525 - 01/26/12 11:21 AM Re: Understanding F & F Forum Purpose? [Re: lucylives]
Castle Offline


Registered: 10/03/09
Posts: 727
Loc: NJ
*****trigger warning*****

Listen...I'm trying to let this topic die a bit, but it keeps being revived with little digs here and there..so I could a) keep adding fuel to the fire or b) completly let it go and be frustrated c) try to have some type of civil discussion even though we wont agree on things.

Believe it or not...I am very sorry for all our pain.

But.

Your likening infedelity to childhood sexual abuse. I cant and wont tell you how to feel about yor own survivor feelings...but cheating/acting out on your wife is just differnt than a child being abused.

I know these are your feelings...and you feel betrayed by your spouse/SO...hurt in terrible ways...and my compassion that you can't see or understand gets lost in the message that I think infedelity is dfferent than abuse..and the triggery nature of the use of the term abuse...and not caring if a survivor feels that is hurtful...or the meaning of it on a site like this.

Maybe I'm jaded in the fact Ive heard some really horrible stories of abuse twords children...maybe heard 50+ sotories that beak my heart and effect it n a profound way....friends of mine who suffered some of the most insane things you can imagine and then some things that people could never ever imagine...and shouldnt maybe know. The shame and embaressment that an 8 yo boy feels when hes coerced by his brother to perform oral sex on him....the shame/embaressment somebody will carry for years and in most cases decades. so people wouldnt think the myths about him. Finally being able to find some trust with men to talk about these things that are some of the most taboo subjects even known to human creatures...Incest is one if not the only taboo that crosses almost every culture ever...Even cannabalism was more excepted within cultures than incest.

In that, some things here we are talking about are shame based and there may be some men who also have acted out and now have shame and are being blasted as abusers, besides your husbands. There is enough shame going around in a survivors brain....do we need more? ask if the shame and things your feeling might effect a new survivor who just got here today and is figuring out whats what and may read...men who act out on their partners are abusers...I think that is just the wrong message and a dangerous message, even if thats how you are feeling. The new survivor with these issues might not share these things with their partners for fear and continue to hide and act out and delay thier healing...and as tough as it is to hear, and Im not saying this in anger..everybody has the right to healing but the focus of MS, and the primary concern as I've seen it.. is to help abroad base of men to work through CSA/ASA

So I ask this: Is Infedelity in a marriage between adults in a relationship with all its terrible consequences the same thing as being abused as a child? A helpless child who might have just wanted to fit in...for some to be safe from their house and bio-family and felt safer with the abuser...who are working through issues because they felt love for a perp because the actual sexaul abuse was better than living at home and being beat or starved...A boy looking for a mentor or coach who uses that against the child for their own needs....A mother or father raping a child starting at age 4....is that abuse the same as infedelity?



_________________________

My posts can self destruct at any time..read them while you can.

Top
#383533 - 01/26/12 12:45 PM Re: Understanding F & F Forum Purpose? [Re: Castle]
Dar Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/15/11
Posts: 170
Loc: Missouri
CASTLE:So I ask this: Is Infedelity in a marriage between adults in a relationship with all its terrible consequences the same thing as being abused as a child?


Absolutely NOT the same type of abuse.

And not all survivors will act out against their marriage either.

But,I and other survivors have acted out against our marriage which did cause Considerable pain and Anguish to our S/O's.

Do I feel like I abused my marital vows? YES I do.

Did I Perpetrate against my marriage? NO, I abused it.
This abuse is totally different than what a survivor has gone through.

So what some people call abuse may not be what others call their abuse. We all just need to read between the lines.

_________________________
All I ever wanted was a hug.

Top
#383536 - 01/26/12 01:58 PM Re: Understanding F & F Forum Purpose? [Re: Dar]
whome Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/07/11
Posts: 1734
Loc: Johannesburg South Africa
Again,........ If a spouse felt like she has been abused by her survivor, then that is her reality, we cant judge that reality.
Is it right to compare that to the abuse of a child, HELL NO.

Now I Am a survivor, did I become a perpetrator, absolutely, I mentally, financially and psychologically abused my wife and daughter for 20 years. That is my shame. I am right in saying that I too was an abuser. I WOULD NEVER physically hurt a child, but I did mentally hurt my beautiful daughter.

SO in conclusion, I became the one thing that I hated most, an abuser. Am I healed, well not perfect yet, but thank God I don't do what I used to do, abuse my family.

A quote to close my side of this DISCUSSION.

"There are none so blind as those who will not see"
Just a thought

Heal well
Martin

_________________________
Matrix Men South Africa
Survivors Supporting Each other
Matrix Men Blog

Top
#383537 - 01/26/12 02:04 PM Re: Understanding F & F Forum Purpose? [Re: Dar]
GoodHope Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 413
Castle, the last response you made is the most persuasive you've made and I felt more respected in the tone of that response. We are at an impasse though, one that maybe can't be resolved. What you are requesting is that supporters keep their feelings to themselves for fear of disrupting another's healing. His healing for our healing is not fair. Our healing at the expense of his is not fair either. But where would you have us go? We could disappear and try to figure it out on our own but doesn't that stymie our survivors healing too. I get so much insight into my husband from you guys. The discussion on porn was monumental for me and what I'm finally able to understand girds me for interactions w my husband.

Im pragmatic and solurion oriented so bear with me. Would it help if in subject lines we put "supporters only" for topics for which we really only want to vent
to someone who understands? Could we have an explanation that topics like that can be difficult for survivors early in their recovery to handle?

I want to address the child rape-shame/infidelity comparison. As you describe very well shame is the delineation. I feel no shame about my husbands behavior. But as Lucy pointed out, the betrayal and manipulation by one who is charged w protecting your heart with little regard for our physical and mental health sounds similar enough for you to at least kin of understand why this is can be quite an obstacle for the reconciliation that my survivor says he so desperately wants.

_________________________
Wife of a survivor

Top
#383539 - 01/26/12 02:13 PM Re: Understanding F & F Forum Purpose? [Re: Dar]
Gretta Offline


Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 239
I don't think expressing my pain as a wife of a survivor negates or lessens the reality of your pain or experience as a survivor.

As you know there are just few avenues where we can discuss our experiences so openly. For many reasons and mostly for my husband I don't have many people I can talk to. I am thankful for the men and woman here who have calmed me down, shown me my husbands side of things, given me a word of encouragement. The F&F forum has been a life saver for me and my family.

My intentions are good and I believe that of the people who come to F&F. Every once in a while someone will say something that might hit and cord or offend but just think what has brought them here...Devastation of some sort. At which point they need to a hug not a kick.

I am not here to compare pain because my pain does not compare to some of the stories I have heard here. But my heart is still broken and I am working to mend it. Thanks for the help.


Top
#383564 - 01/26/12 07:09 PM Re: Understanding F & F Forum Purpose? [Re: Castle]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
Originally Posted By: Castle

So I ask this: Is Infedelity in a marriage between adults in a relationship with all its terrible consequences the same thing as being abused as a child? A helpless child who might have just wanted to fit in...for some to be safe from their house and bio-family and felt safer with the abuser...who are working through issues because they felt love for a perp because the actual sexaul abuse was better than living at home and being beat or starved...A boy looking for a mentor or coach who uses that against the child for their own needs....A mother or father raping a child starting at age 4....is that abuse the same as infedelity?



They did a study recently and found lots of people aren't marrying for one reason: they don't want to experience divorce. 50% or more marriages end in divorce as it is. If you think about it, you got a 50-50 change in marriage which ain't very good to begin with.

Considering the women that I talked to that had CSA, I don't believe infidelity is the same as CSA or an abusive childhood. Could someone take infidelity as bad as CSA? Maybe. Infidelity hurts men as well as women depending on who did the cheating. But, if the partner is on the losing end of infidelity doesn't have a CSA or an abusive background, it's gonna hurt and it's gonna hurt bad. But, that person is most likely an adult in their thinking that can handle such adversity in an adult way. It's the end of trust with that person that cheated not everybody they come in contact with. If the partner has a CSA or abusive background, it can be the opposite--all people betray you so all people are bad. In other words, they deal with it like a child would. Both think this person isn't my soul mate anymore but the CSA/child abuse survivor thinks everyone will do it to them.

CSA and/or other child abuse has to be the worst because it destroys their development depending on the age when it happens. Everyone's different. Just seems to me if the person doesn't learn social skills, love, trust as a child, it affects the entire emotional health of a person. Childhood is gone forever if it never happened. There's no going back. People can try again with marriage (with a cheating spouse or a new one). Some might not try again thinking marriage is bulls@#t with anyone. The CSA/child abuse survivor already thinks most people are bad.

If you'll notice, I didn't justify cheating for anyone.

They did do a study recently that showed kids who have an abusive childhood (suffer lots of stressors) don't get over it. It carries through to adulthood. Those stressors most of us CSA/child abuse survivors would think: that's a big deal? Yeah, for 99% of people, CSA is worse. There is always gonna be a few exceptions to the rule.

_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

Top
#383597 - 01/27/12 01:56 AM Re: Understanding F & F Forum Purpose? [Re: herowannabe]
herowannabe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/01/11
Posts: 386
Loc: USA
Quote:
In that, some things here we are talking about are shame based and there may be some men who also have acted out and now have shame and are being blasted as abusers, besides your husbands. There is enough shame going around in a survivors brain....do we need more? ask if the shame and things your feeling might effect a new survivor who just got here today and is figuring out whats what and may read...men who act out on their partners are abusers...I think that is just the wrong message and a dangerous message, even if thats how you are feeling. The new survivor with these issues might not share these things with their partners for fear and continue to hide and act out and delay thier healing...and as tough as it is to hear, and Im not saying this in anger..everybody has the right to healing but the focus of MS, and the primary concern as I've seen it.. is to help abroad base of men to work through CSA/ASA


IMO, this is a valid, though misguided, point.

I believe a newcomer to MS who has not acted out against another will see that his situation does not apply to those who've suffered the affects of CSA- INDIRECTLY. However, in reading the very real pain another survivor caused others by not having received help in recovering from his trauma, a newcomer might have a better understanding of how seriously he may have been injured, and that his injury could very well do harm to his adult self and those he most loves.

Or, he might just move to another topic in search of one that more closely mirrors his experience.

Or, a newcomer could read here that some CSA survivors are capable of abusing themselves, their marriages and those they most love, and prefer to not "hear" that possibility for whatever reason known only to him. Maybe he is so dependent on his drug of acting out that he can't bear knowing that he could be hurting another? Maybe he harbors resentment/hatred for women, or for his innocent, unsuspecting partner, and will rail against the very thought that his rage may be the basis for his acting out? Maybe he is threatened by the thought of having to own, accept responsibility and correct his own active or simmering-beneath-the-surface desire to act out, and rejects the notion that he could actually do another harm? His defensive reaction does not negate the facts, and perhaps he will come to realize he needs help.

Or, a newcomer who is acting out, compartmentalizing so that he isn't even cognizant of the fact that others are being hurt by his actions may awaken to the reality that his actions are actually abusive. For the first time ever, that newcomer might come to see that other survivors who did not have help in recovery, attempted to help themselves in harmful, destructive ways, and that they are not only abusing themselves, but others as well. My husband isn't different from other survivors in that his trauma stunted his development and perverted for him the real meaning of love versus sex versus intimacy, his truth versus reality. He acted out in a search to "feel better" to "escape" to "find what was missing", and ironically acted out in ways similar to how he was abused. In doing so, he perpetuated his abuse by abusing himself in adulthood. In marriage, he not only abused himself, but me, in the process. In a good, healthy, unabusive childhood, a child is taught that he can't just go doing whatever he wants to do because he may hurt himself or others. But the child who is being abused can't understand that fundamental lesson because he is experiencing an adult doing whatever he wants to do to the child regardless of the hurt being inflicted on that child. If a survivor can't accept and practice that lesson as an adult, he will not recover. Period. That's not my hypothesis, but is the cornerstone of all AA-type recovery programs. Recovery is hard because the adult has to do the emotional, mental,spiritual and physical development he should have completed over the course of his life in a condensed fashion, oftentimes in conjunction with picking up the shards of his demolished adult life.

Any newcomer needs to fully understand that what happened to him as a helpless child is certainly NOT his fault, and that his childhood shame is misplaced. However, not acknowledging his trauma in adulthood, may (or may not) result in his continued abuse of not only his own self, but another as well.

As for accusing a supporter of equating CSA to the abuse inflicted by infidelity, that is preposterous! Any supporter on MS is here because we are fully aware that the abuse suffered by a CHILD trumps the abuse suffered by us, which is why we are here instead of divorce court. That being said, the fact remains that we have become unwilling victims, too. For a female victim of rape to come here NOT for her own healing, but to support her survivor husband after suffering his abuse against her and their marriage speaks the whole story. SHE is a bonafide hero. I am in awe of her.

The truth (not candy-coating or denial) shall set you free.

Blessings on all who suffer-
herowannabe

_________________________


For I know the plans I have made for you. Plans to give you a future and a hope. Jeremiah 29:11


Top
#383599 - 01/27/12 02:10 AM Re: Understanding F & F Forum Purpose? [Re: herowannabe]
herowannabe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/01/11
Posts: 386
Loc: USA
Quote:
If there is ever any question about our pain, know this.....

I was raped when I was younger. I thought he was going to kill me. The fear was so great when I tried to scream, nothing would come out. I was paralyzed with fear.

As hard and scary and traumatic as that was, the things my husband has done are harder to handle, scarier and more traumatic. The things he has done to me, behind my back, are worse. That guy was a stranger, my husband is supposed to love me. That betrayal is worse.

Maybe that will give everyone a little insight into my pain and devastation. I am sure some spouses can relate so please forgive us when we don't act exactly perfect or word things exactly perfect. We have been thrown into some extraordinary situations, incomprehendable situations and the emotions are very raw.


...(((Lucy)))... I am rendered speechless...(almost!) wink

I simply can't imagine the double layer of pain you carry, but I want you to know that I am humbled, moved and inspired by you. That you are here not for your own recovery, not to work through your own rage, but for the purpose of supporting your husband ... for lack of a more profound word: awe-some.

I pray for the graces that have made you such an amazing, strong, wise, insightful, loving, compassionate soul.

I just don't have the words to express my feelings of compassion and appreciation for you. I so hope your husband knows what a treasure he has in you. And I so hope your pain will be replaced with the joy of having made a difference for GOOD for many!

With much, much respect-
herowannabe

_________________________


For I know the plans I have made for you. Plans to give you a future and a hope. Jeremiah 29:11


Top
#383612 - 01/27/12 04:30 AM Re: Understanding F & F Forum Purpose? [Re: herowannabe]
Gretta Offline


Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 239
Ditto to heroes comment but when describing Lucy she is everything you said but you must include funny. She has a fantastic sense of humor! Which has made me lol in the middle of major tears. Thanks Lucy!



Edited by Gretta (01/27/12 04:37 AM)

Top
Page 3 of 4 < 1 2 3 4 >


Moderator:  ModTeam, peroperic2009 

I agree that my access and use of the MaleSurvivor discussion forums and chat room is subject to the terms of this Agreement. AND the sole discretion of MaleSurvivor.
I agree that my use of MaleSurvivor resources are AT-WILL, and that my posting privileges may be terminated at any time, and for any reason by MaleSurvivor.