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#382112 - 01/11/12 04:26 PM Homophobic because of the Abuse
Edward Wong Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/25/11
Posts: 40
I'm deeply homophobic. Its a result of my abuse. I know my hatred is misplaced. I shouldn't compare what happens between consenting adults to what happened to me a child. But in the back of my mind, there is always a voice telling me that all gay men are pedophiles.

The problem is that my brother-in-law is openly gay. I try to avoid him if possible. My wife has caught on and she's upset at me. Its beginning to affect our marriage.

My wife knows I was abused and has helped me with with a lot of other issues. On this issue, she refuses to budge. She's upset that I'm focusing my anger at the wrong group of people. I know she's right, but I can't bring myself to change.

Has anyone else dealt with this? What can I do to become more tolerant?


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#382115 - 01/11/12 05:52 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: Edward Wong]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
This is a controversial topic and I give you credit for raising it. I've had similar issues but now having been in a survivor group for about 4 months and having gay and straight men in the group has eased the issues for me. I've gotten to know people better so I see them less and less through the prism of their sexuality. I've also been very sexually confused and I think part of it for me was when I saw gay men who were seemingly comfortable with themselves, when I wasn't, it seemed somehow unfair to me. I thought all gay men must have been abused at some point and that they should be struggling and ashamed like me. But now I realize that they are just other men, albeit with an orientation that I consider different than the norm. Also, I try to stay away from thinking of gay men as "they".

To become "more tolerant" is a good question. It seems unreasonable to put it on your wife. However, is your wife being unreasonable? The fact that she won't budge on this - what does that mean? Are you being too hard on yourself? Does your brother-in-aw simply make you uncomfortable whether he was gay or not? That might be key - is your brother-in-law someone you simply don't like to be around? Its okay to not like a person who happens to be gay. You need to separate it out if that may be the case.

There's a lot of issues in there especially with your abuse. Again, I give you credit for working to make yourself more comfortable because in the end, it will make others around you more comfortable, too.

_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#382124 - 01/11/12 07:47 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: Edward Wong]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: Edward Wong
...I'm deeply homophobic...What can I do to become more tolerant?


edward, in my view and from my own experience - the answer is likely already there for you.

after my rape i was tormented by guys who called me a fag and i took their bullying seriously and literally. come to find out - they are all gay today, 30+ yrs on. when i left high school to attend college though i felt that i could escape the past and one thing i would vow to do was certainly distance myself from anything/all things gay.

first night in the dorms my new roommate and i went out to dinner, one question he asked was "what do you think about gay people?" my answer "they should all be killed." i said it, even though i didn't believe that, but thought my words would rest that horrible past, and of course prevent the roommate from ever thinking otherwise about me. (which is a separate issue really.)

what i did not know... in my insular way of thinking... was he was not asking me that question to find out if i was gay and/or to make fun of me. he asked, because he was going to tell me he was gay, as i found out about six months later. it is perhaps the most shameful period of my life. it is one thing i would certainly take back if i could. i was not afraid of him. i was not afraid of gays. i was afraid of pedophiles and i was afraid of myself.

but, i was sick of being "on trial" inside my soul. i am so glad that i was able to apologize to him (six months later). but the damage was done and my one little statement caused plenty of grief all around that first semester, which there is no need to go into here and now.

treat others as one wishes to be treated. is there any better advice?

_________________________
Jeff

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#382131 - 01/11/12 09:12 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: westchesterguy]
Fissy Tsickens Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/23/08
Posts: 466
Loc: Bassett, Virginia
Each of us is different, so my experience may not be at all like yours. For YEARS I was UBER homophobic. Great coping mechanism for the fact that I felt strong attraction towards other men. But that's just me...

Peace,

John

_________________________
Wish that I could cry
Fall upon my knees
Find a way to lie
About a home Iíll never see

It may sound absurd...but donít be naive
Even heroes have the right to bleed
I may be disturbed...but wonít you concede
Even heroes have the right to dream
Itís not easy to be me

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#382161 - 01/12/12 03:24 AM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: Fissy Tsickens]
Andre808 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/15/11
Posts: 15
Loc: Honolulu, Hawaii
Like a lot of issues stemming from CSA, its going to take time. Like racism, homophobia is based on ignorance and fear. What we don't know we usually end up fearing and hating. If possible, you need to remember that homosexuals are people too, with their own issues just like heterosexuals. We both have a need for human contact and feel pain and joy as well. I suggest spending some time with your brother-in-law, in the company with other people such as your wife, to see that he's just another guy. Try to find out what you have in common rather than what is different.

Good luck and just have an open mind and heart.

Andre


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#382180 - 01/12/12 10:52 AM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: Andre808]
Fissy Tsickens Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/23/08
Posts: 466
Loc: Bassett, Virginia
I agree whole-heartedly with Andre.

_________________________
Wish that I could cry
Fall upon my knees
Find a way to lie
About a home Iíll never see

It may sound absurd...but donít be naive
Even heroes have the right to bleed
I may be disturbed...but wonít you concede
Even heroes have the right to dream
Itís not easy to be me

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#382183 - 01/12/12 11:12 AM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: Fissy Tsickens]
Castle Offline


Registered: 10/03/09
Posts: 727
Loc: NJ
Your using myths associated with gay people...just as people use the myths against us...In all this were looking for the real person inside and to connect with....we dont have to like everybody but we shouldn't just cut out what can be a great relationship solely on who he chooses to spend his personal time with.

Most perpetrators are not pedophiles.

Sorry to be blunt and not trying to be hurtful...but this isnt something your wife should budge on, and I'd be upset too.

You seem to know the core issues, and this is the start to working on it. Do you goto T?

Just wanting to change Isn't enough, we have to do the hard work to really make a change.

_________________________

My posts can self destruct at any time..read them while you can.

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#382184 - 01/12/12 11:33 AM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: Edward Wong]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
Edward,

If you want the truth, the LGBT community has way more resources and general caring for their people than the straight community could dream about. The reason they do is because of all the bigotry against them from the straight community. The LGBT community is very generous. They took the lead with AIDS in the 80s. Bigotry and racism is the problem of humanity. CSA victims should know that all too well.

I've been acquainted with a bunch of gay men and women over the years and it literally amazed me how duty bound they were to each other in almost everything. To be honest, I have more respect for the LGBT community that the straight community. They tackle problems while the staight community ignores their own problmes (like CSA) until it bites them in the ass causing them to do something.

I understand why you are homophobic but not why you keep it up. Pedos aren't gay. Pedos are sick people that rape kids. In fact, research showed that Scout leaders that raped kids were way more likely to be straight. Why do pedos rape kids? Power.

For me, bigotry and racism is ignorance. Some people hate what they refuse to understand or can't understand. Fear of the unknown.

Fear and ignorance are the devil's playground. Hate pedos not gays. Pedos deserve your hate and anger. Your wife is 100% correct. She shouldn't budge an inch. You need to learn to Live and Let Live.

_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

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#382188 - 01/12/12 12:37 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: Edward Wong]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
I think the replies are off. I think to simply say to a CSA survivor to just "let go of it" or that its ignorance or fear to be let go is trite and simplistic. This could be seriously tied to the CSA and could take time. The fact that it was admitted to as something to be addressed is great for Edward's own comfort with himself as CSA survivor. It may be that your homophobia is actually serving a purpose of protecting you even if that purpose is dysfunctional and out of proportion to reality, meaning gay men are not a threat but the perception of being threatened can be a serious issue for a CSA survivor.

You don't have to find the gay community as one that you need approval by in order to be a good person. You don't need to demonize it or hate it or irrationally fear it but you don't have to love it either. Its just like a Christian church - it exists but if it doesn't affect your life, feel free to not pay it any attention.

Many CSA survivors have issues like yours to deal with and its about your comfort with yourself and feeling safe as far as this board goes, in my opinion.

Many men, straight or gay or whatever, can support your understandable questions in this area. It takes bravery to discuss this issue on this board.

_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#382194 - 01/12/12 01:27 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: EdfromNYC]
Castle Offline


Registered: 10/03/09
Posts: 727
Loc: NJ
I dont read it so much as "get over it" as spend some time and try to work on things.

I think the main question is that are you working on this stuff with a T?

Secondly, I would ask do you sut feel uncomfortable or physically unsafe around the BIL? If the answer is just uncomfortable, than the theory of lots of the hard work happens when were safe but uncomfortable.

third I would say start small, and try to see, like sugggested above, if you can find a similarity or shared passion/commanality where you can just enjoy the moment and get lost in the activity instead of focusing on his sexuality.

this comes up a bunch on the boards....Its very hard to get some things out there, and just the fact were all so brave to be here, were "winning" wink....however, at the same time, sometimes is it better to hear the "truth" and open to all opinons even the ones that might not make us feel great...or are we here to challenge things hear different perspectives and try to work out our issues.

IMHO being safe and being challenged is what helps us twords healing.

_________________________

My posts can self destruct at any time..read them while you can.

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#382196 - 01/12/12 01:45 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: Castle]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1293
From Ed's (NYC) response right down the line, I am dazzled by the insights! These answers are right on the money. I congratulate Edward Wong for bringing this up - it can't be easy.

I am convinced that most homophobia derives from fear, not hatred. I'm sure you may have heard of the Reverend Fred Phelps, pastor of the Westboro Baptist Church (GodHatesFags.com). A friend of mine nonchallantly said of him, "Oh, he's definitely gay."

Hmmm... At first I didn't agree. How could someone so violently anti-gay possibly be ... gay? But thinking about it for a long time, I realized that would make the most sense. Of course, whether he is or isn't is not really important or even debatable here. But it brings up the issue that most homophobia comes from a very deep-seated self-resentment or insecurity. I wonder if most of the hatred in the world comes from people fighting their own inner demons, the ugliness spilling out all around them.

I think I walked a similar path to Edward, at least in-so-far as the homophobia. I went to college absolutely detesting gays, making loud and obnoxious pronouncements about it, and living my life as if I were in a performance to prove to others I was not gay. I despised those who accepted themselves as gay, and especially those who immersed themselves in it. I saw them as weak, unable to resist the same temptations I felt but was too fearful to admit - even to myself.

It took a long time and a lot of deep, personal work to realize that my homophobia was one of the worst elements of damage I suffered from my abuse. There was no "aHA!" moment about it - it was a gradual education. My homophobia was the sum of all my fear and shame and insecurity. It was the hell of my existence after the abuse ended. It was what my abuser set up for me - and I dutifully carried on. My abuser - if he could have seen me fight those inner demons - would have folded his arms, smirked, and congratulated himself on a job well-done.

I don't give my abuser that victory anymore. He doesn't preside, albeit in absentia, over the battles he has set up between me and myself. I don't know if I would have been gay or not without his uninvited intervention in my life, but that's not important. I am who I am - if he played a role in making me that, then so be it. But I own me now - not him.

_________________________



Click my pic to see why I'm here

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#382197 - 01/12/12 02:00 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: EdfromNYC]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
EdfromNYC,

It's easy for me to not have any bigotry or racism since I grew up as a military brat around just about every different race possible. We kids just didn't have bigotry or racism around us except when we were in the local cities and towns. The south was the worst for it. I had no idea why people there hated people of color. We are all human. As long as they don't harm you, why hate or be bigoted to anyone?

What I saw in people that were bigoted and racist was ignorance and a culture that propped up that ignorance. The ones that refused to change I just saw hate.

The churches I was forced to go to definitely hated the LGBT community with a passion due to religion. The religion was "we are better than everyone else cause we got god" and the LGBT bunch are just sinners out to destroy us so fuck 'em. I thought it was bullshit then and it still is bullshit.

Society should have NO tolerance for bigotry and racism. I've definitely been the victim of bigotry and racism myself. I know how bad it can hurt. We need to see all people as people just like us. All of us one day are going to need that same treatment.

Edward said in his post he knew it was wrong. Maybe he's just trying to justify such thoughts with "I'm afraid". Face your fears is the only way around it. Maybe tell your Brother-in-law why you think they way you do. He might just shock the hell out of you and be understanding. You wife doesn't want you thinking that of your brother-in-law because he's her brother. Take this opportunity to get rid of that homophobia.

_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

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#382198 - 01/12/12 02:14 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: phoenix321]
Mulligan Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/15/10
Posts: 94
Loc: USA
I can gaurandamntee you that if you were abducted and tortured by purple space aliens......you would be suspect of them for the rest of your life. With that said my abuser is/was gay. For years my only experience with gay people was being raped by one. Was I homophobic yes and I beleive justifiably so. Since entering recovery I have had lots of new experiences with gay people and now some of my closest friends are gay. I would suggest that you ask your wife to give you some time with this and that you are triggered by gay people. Doesn't make you a bad guy it makes you triggered. I am triggered by church. I don't go!

_________________________
Because I never give up the fight!

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#382199 - 01/12/12 02:19 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: phoenix321]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
Phoenix

I agree that its about facing one's fears but with CSA in the picture it can be complicated. And who knows what the bro-in-law is like? We can't assume he is approachable nor is that necessarily the best way to face the fear but we don't know. Each of us faces his fears in different ways and it seems like Edward is starting to face this stuff.

To admit that one has a problem is the first step. To resolve the problem can be a process that takes time and space to figure out and that is what I am stressing. It is not crucial to force this any faster than necessary. One can have feelings or phobias and not have to act on them; rather, one can acknowledge that they have them, sort them out and then be able to more accurately perceive events and act with the ability to choose how to act.

I think homophobia is a hot button issue for many who suffered CSA and there is no one way to resolve the issue. Homophobia is merely a symptom of other things, in my opinion.

_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#382202 - 01/12/12 02:45 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: Castle]
neveragain Offline


Registered: 12/21/11
Posts: 26
EdfromNYC you are right on. i feel sorry for this guy. some gusy on this place do more damege than help. I spent along time getting paid by gays to have sex with them. i was a 16 yearold kid so dont tell me gays arent peds. they can be and i met alot of them. to blast this guy for how his csa has left him is as ignerant as his being acused of being.


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#382206 - 01/12/12 02:55 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: Edward Wong]
whome Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/07/11
Posts: 1734
Loc: Johannesburg South Africa
Hi Edward

In My case many of my abusers where gay men. This had then built up in me a resentment of gay men, understandable as I believed that all gay men where potential abusers.
Its easy to say that you must learn to tolerate gay men, and to compare this to racism, but its not like that in my case.
To me it was simple as a child, Gay = abuser.

I did go through a patch where I had sexual confusion, and experimented with men, but it always made me feel worse, so I wasn't homophobic because I was in the closet. Even with this knowledge, I still continued to hate Gay men, and it got worse as I got older.
I was one of those Ignorant people that would drive past the Gay clubs and throw beer bottles and shout faggot and other derogatory names at them.

So what changed.
I learnt that I am a survivor
I learnt that Gay men suffer as I do, and that many of them were also sexually abused
I learnt that not all gay men are perpetrators, just as not all stepfathers and uncles are.
I learnt that if I were to fight against CSA, I would need to learn to love gay men and treat them just as I would any other survivor.

Today I can say that there are several Gay men that I have counselled and continue to do so, and I harbour no ill feelings toward them.
Amazing how life changes when you face the truth.

As for your wife, sit her down and explain to her why you feel like you do, and tell her that as you are healing, things will improve and that she needs to be patient with you and know that you are working on your issues

I hope my experience helps you

Heal well
Martin



_________________________
Matrix Men South Africa
Survivors Supporting Each other
Matrix Men Blog

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#382210 - 01/12/12 03:23 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: whome]
Castle Offline


Registered: 10/03/09
Posts: 727
Loc: NJ
WOW...Lotta action, as usual.

A Mulligan appearnace, NICE!.... Billy, you challenged your thoughts based on some experience and you have grown because of it. Dont you think? I think some of the intolerance has also to do with enviornment and such well beyond just a CSA issue. I too was abused by a gay male, a family member...and my feelings and experiences are differnt than yours.

Never...Im telling you "gays" are not pedos...this thought process is foolishness. Coining them "gays" or "the gays" is equally as foolish. You may have encountered some gay male pedos, but to say "gays are pedos" is really destructive and hurtful in so many ways, and on so many levels.

I also see thought, from the beginning, the op want to try and work through this issue more, and always a hard first step.

still curious if this is being worked on DIY or with pro help.



Edited by Castle (01/12/12 03:26 PM)
_________________________

My posts can self destruct at any time..read them while you can.

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#382215 - 01/12/12 05:04 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: Castle]
Edward Wong Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/25/11
Posts: 40
I tried talk therapy, but it didn't help me. I still see a psychiatrist for antidepressants.


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#382219 - 01/12/12 05:39 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: Edward Wong]
Mulligan Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/15/10
Posts: 94
Loc: USA
Talk therapy takes some time and the right person. I have seen a couple of Ts and each one of them has advanced me on some level of recovery. It does work, just have to find the right one.

_________________________
Because I never give up the fight!

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#382229 - 01/12/12 09:23 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: Mulligan]
Castle Offline


Registered: 10/03/09
Posts: 727
Loc: NJ
Can you expand a bit, if its safe for you, Edward, why you feel talk therapy didn't help you?

Are you opposed to trying it again?

When you tried before, were you actively working on recovery?
(I'm not asking that in a negative way, I just dont know where in your process you are)

_________________________

My posts can self destruct at any time..read them while you can.

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#382245 - 01/13/12 06:57 AM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: Castle]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
Sorry, guys. Racism and bigotry hurts lots and lots of people so I'll continue to be a pain in the ass by being totally against it. If we allow it to fester, bad things will happen from it. People have gotten beat, killed because of it. The article below is another good reason why it has NO place in society regardless of the "why".

Ruling over controversial pool sign stands ("white only" sign)
http://news.yahoo.com/ohio-panel-sticks-white-only-pool-sign-ruling-151624022.html

That story truly disgusted me.

_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

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#382252 - 01/13/12 08:26 AM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: phoenix321]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
You seem to think that you're the only one against racism and bigotry. You're not. You are confused about what people are writing about here by continuing to tie racism with bigotry.

Like one other poster wrote on here, in the context of CSA by another man, homophobia (not bigotry as you mistakenly write) is, I would say, normal for a survivor of CSA. You need to understand that is not bigotry. One can have feelings of homophobia, know that they don't like that they have those feelings and NEVER ACT ON THEM which means they don't practice bigotry. You need to separate feelings from actions because they are different. Bigotry is action; homophobia is feeling.

I'm sure you've had feelings that you don't like and you've done work to understand them and uncover feelings beneath the surface. That's what many of us with issues of homophobia are dealing with. For you to write its wrong regardless of the "why", again, you make the mistake of equating someone searching out what they are really feeling with actually going out and acting on their homophobia in horrible ways. You've made quite a leap there from someone's discomfort to someone automatically being a victimizer. This inability to see nuance in this discussion about homophobia might indicate an area of pain for you that has nothing to do with other men discussing their confused feelings due to their CSA.

The equating of racism with homophobia (which you call bigotry) is simply wrong on this site. We're not "off" to discuss this. Its okay to talk about this stuff and explore what it means. That's how people get better.

And one more thing: we've all done "bad" things in our lives, made wrong choices. If one has unintentionally practiced "bigotry" at one time or another, he can atone for it and know that he is not bad or wrong for it. Same with racism. We all grow and learn and understand and to make these two things so incredibly bad that anyone who has made a mistake should be really, really, really ashamed, I just don't buy it. Sometimes we learn by acting ignorant and then getting corrected. Sometimes life is just like that unfortunately.

_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#382260 - 01/13/12 09:46 AM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: EdfromNYC]
phoenix321 Offline


Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 912
Loc: USA, FL
EdfromNYC,

That is not what Edward Wong posted. If somebody truly has a phobia about a particular group of people because of trauma, that's totally understandable since they don't know any better. Once they find that the phobia isn't true and still harbor it, it's wrong. Edward Wong clearly said he was the latter (adding he makes homophobic comments and his wife really doesn't like it).

Everyone has some little issue they believe about others. If I'm walking down an alley and see 4 people who look like gang bangers, I will turn the other way. Of course, I'd do the same thing if I saw 4 white guys that looked like white trash. That example is just protecting my behind. Some might yell racism but it ain't.

When we allow hate to be inside of us, it hurts us and it hurts others.

Let's put your idea on trial. If somebody says, "I don't like Black people cause one was my perp. Yes, I use the "N" word and I know it is wrong but I just can't get myself to like Black people." I bet we'd all tell this hypothetical person, you are a racist, bro, stop it.

Perhaps Mr. Wong might just stop making homophobic comments around his wife. I assume Mr. Wong is Asian and doubt seriously he likes people making bigoted comments about Asians, right?

To be blunt, if we do others wrong, just because we have CSA does not justify it. Again, having CSA does not justify hurting others. Say it till you believe it.

Cheating on your wife or girlfriend isn't justified because of CSA either like I've seen a few attempt to do on MS.

_________________________
Phoenix

A guy opens the front door and sees a snail on his doorstep. He picks up the snail and throws it across the street in a neighbor's yard. A year later, the guy opens the front door and the same snail is on his doorstep. The snail says, "What the f*ck was that about?"

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#382261 - 01/13/12 09:47 AM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: Edward Wong]
F.A. Offline


Registered: 09/02/11
Posts: 229
Loc: United States
My perps where not homosexual, they all have grown to be married and have children, so called normal lives, If anything they could be your classic pedophiles with an attraction to young children that has nothing to do with sexual orientation or Bi men and to this day I don't think any are closeted gay men.

You have a right to your feelings as everyone has a right to theirs. I hope you can over come all that has happened.


Originally Posted By: Edward Wong
I'm deeply homophobic. Its a result of my abuse. I know my hatred is misplaced.


_________________________
F.A.

To be sick is to be fragmented. To be healed is to become whole, and to become whole one must be in harmony with family, friends, and nature" -Navajo-
Blog: http://csafresno.blogspot.com
Facebook: http://tinyurl.com/CSAFresno
My Story: http://tinyurl.com/78upvvu

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#382269 - 01/13/12 10:58 AM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: phoenix321]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
Where does he say he makes comments? Can you quote that because I can't find it? You are seeing things that don't exist. Edward even says he tries to avoid his bro-in-law whenever possible. That is not bigotry. You are mistaken and you need to go back and read things again and see that you are posting based on your perceptions but not on what is actually being posted.

I don't agree with you. I think you're sensitivity to others potential pain (and not CSA survivors on this site but no-name possible victims of racism and bigotry that only seem to exist in your head!), not your pain, says something about you and not about the people trying to DISCUSS FEELINGS ON THIS SITE. I think you have a problem with this being discussed and I think that you need to figure out what your problem is as most of us discussing this issue are clear on what our problem is. Your problem, imagining the pain of others who aren't on this site and who we have no idea of who these people are that you are protecting, is not what we are discussing here.

I think you're stuck somewhere and you can argue your point all day but when you start making things up that aren't actually posted it tells me that you might be caught up in very, very strong emotions that are personal to you and need to be explored.

Again, racism is not the worst thing that ever happened. People say things and they make mistakes and learn. Its weird that you keep equating racism with homophobia even though this is a CSA survivor board. Its simply weird that you won't let go. Did you dig your heels in and now you need to be right or something? Your keep missing the point.

_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#382271 - 01/13/12 11:03 AM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: phoenix321]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
Quote:
Cheating on your wife or girlfriend isn't justified because of CSA either like I've seen a few attempt to do on MS.


Maybe people weren't trying to justify (or some might have been) as much as trying to tie their current behavior to their CSA. That's what people are saying about their homophobia.

Quote:
Everyone has some little issue they believe about others. If I'm walking down an alley and see 4 people who look like gang bangers, I will turn the other way. Of course, I'd do the same thing if I saw 4 white guys that looked like white trash. That example is just protecting my behind. Some might yell racism but it ain't.


The fact that you refer to people as "white trash" and that you would act a certain way based on how people look, wow, I missed that at first but you sure do justify how you act. I don't think of people as "white trash" or "gangbangers". I don't think in those terms.

You've shown me that you are complicated, for sure, but we're all on here to heal as best we can.




Edited by EdfromNYC (01/13/12 11:09 AM)
_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#382272 - 01/13/12 11:07 AM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: EdfromNYC]
InsideTheWall Offline


Registered: 01/10/09
Posts: 280
I have a gay perp and struggle with this. I don't have a problem with GBLT people having the same legal rights as everyone else, but thats not going to make my triggers go away. To pretend otherwise is deeply unrealistic. Having said that, I would never intentionally give someone a hard time for being gay and I've very gradually moved towards disclosing my triggers when they could be relevant. If I'm homophobic, its because I want to be, its part of having a gay perp. But its not like I'm not making an effort. The person who understands me the deepest level is a bi-sexual woman who was involved in GLBT politics when she was younger.



Edited by InsideTheWall (01/13/12 11:18 AM)

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#382275 - 01/13/12 11:30 AM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: InsideTheWall]
Castle Offline


Registered: 10/03/09
Posts: 727
Loc: NJ
" If I'm homophobic, its because I want to be, its part of having a gay perp."

Its part of having a gay perp to YOU...not to everybody whos perp happens to be gay...just important to clarify.

ITW, do you engage in talk therapy on the subject?

Edward if you would like to continue a dialog on the topic please refer to the questions I asked, if it safe for you before it drifted laugh.

_________________________

My posts can self destruct at any time..read them while you can.

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#382276 - 01/13/12 12:01 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: Castle]
InsideTheWall Offline


Registered: 01/10/09
Posts: 280
Originally Posted By: Castle
" If I'm homophobic, its because I want to be, its part of having a gay perp."

Its part of having a gay perp to YOU...not to everybody hos perp happens to be gay...just important to clarify.
Fair enough, but I do deserve credit for trying. Not everyone on this thread always did.

Originally Posted By: Castle
ITW, do you engage in talk therapy on the subject?
I have no insurance and there's virtually no services around here anyway. MS is all I have and rarely use it because I don't want to cause controversy. For example, if this thread becomes fixated on me, I'll disappear for months. I strongly prefer to lurk more than interact.




Edited by InsideTheWall (01/13/12 12:07 PM)

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#382277 - 01/13/12 12:05 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: Castle]
KMCINVA Offline
Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1570
I think we all understand that CSA impacts us in many ways--how we think, how we act, how we react to situations and how we feel about ourselves. I think the latter, how we feel about ourselves influences everything else in our life. It create our perceptions, highlights our fears, our distrusts and our own self view of lacking worth or value.

I am learning how I perceived myself allowed me to live a life of allowing others to treat me poorly, take advantage of me. I become the whipping boy for others--further diminishing my sense of worth. It hurts when I think I allowed others to hurt me, then I hurt them with acting out--a terrible cycle. Actions impact us, how we respond can be greatly influenced by our self perception and state of mind. So I hear everyone here, but I hope with therapy everyone will realize every person has value, deserves respect as to who they are, and should not be labeled as to cause hurt or vicious comments and attacks to any individual.


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#382279 - 01/13/12 12:09 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: EdfromNYC]
dcjames Offline


Registered: 05/10/09
Posts: 2
EdfromNYC,
Are you a therapist? When I read what you wrote I kept wondering.


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#382280 - 01/13/12 12:21 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: dcjames]
Castle Offline


Registered: 10/03/09
Posts: 727
Loc: NJ
Please dont disappear, i will not make this about you at all.

I think its important to have a safe place to talk about these issues...and I think as stated numerous times around here, many aspects of this are not DIY, but require skilled council to work through the various issues.

Real change is very hard. Questioning all the bad messages we have heard and used to protect ourselves is really necessary to move forward through recovery.

I hope those who have the want, search out, and find help...dont give up on yourselves.

_________________________

My posts can self destruct at any time..read them while you can.

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#382290 - 01/13/12 02:02 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: dcjames]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
No, I'm not a therapist. Clarity of thought and clarity of expression are both very important to me.

_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#382292 - 01/13/12 02:26 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: Castle]
Asmodeus Offline


Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 112
Loc: Vestavia, Alabama, USA
There's no question that sexual abuse fucks with the mind. Being gay sure as hell didn't stop me from being a homophobe when I was a teenager. The abuse started at 12 and I didn't allow myself to aknowledge that I like guys until I was 19. The part that I find most ironic when looking back is that being raped by a homophobe for 2 years made me a homophobe. If that's not an example of how sexual abuse fucks your mind I don't know what is.

_________________________
I may not be perfect, but at least I'm not fake.

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#382300 - 01/13/12 04:01 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: Castle]
Edward Wong Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/25/11
Posts: 40
Originally Posted By: Castle
Can you expand a bit, if its safe for you, Edward, why you feel talk therapy didn't help you?

Are you opposed to trying it again?

When you tried before, were you actively working on recovery?
(I'm not asking that in a negative way, I just dont know where in your process you are)



The last time I tried talk therapy was 6 years ago, when I was a college freshmen. I had just begun recovering the memories and they were interfering with my academic performance.

When I started taking SSRIs, I became emotionally sterile. I could no longer feel pain or happiness. I was still recovering memories of abuse, but I wasn't able to process them emotionally.

I stopped seeing my psychologist when I when home after the spring semester. When I came back in the fall, I decided to only see psychiatrist for medication refills. The SSRIs left me devoid of the sense of emotion needed to confront the memories. Since I couldn't confront the memories, didn't see a point to talk therapy. I preferred to just dull away the pain with SSRIs.

This fall, my wife began her third year of medical school. As a result of her psychiatry rotation, she began nudging me to begin moving forwards again with my recovery.


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#382301 - 01/13/12 04:07 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: Asmodeus]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
i was a bit surprised how many guys said their peds were "gay."

i have developed my own theory from general gay male discussion groups over the years, one which is rather divided along generational lines. but i am beginning to think that gay men who are over 60 today --when they were in their 20s-40s-- may not have thought it harmful to have "mutually consenting" sex with guy who was not yet of legal age.

in those same general discussion groups, it is the guys in their 20s-30s who claimed older men "showed them the ropes" when they were teens, and yet sex was furthest from their little minds....they just sought a male mentor. and, in all cases those younger men "resented being used for sexual pleasure." (didn't call it abuse although i think it was in a way.) whereas the guys over 60, passed it off, laughed it off sometimes, as just a part of gay life. another common response: "an older guy got me off when i was younger and i wanted it and love it."

just one example, but i firmly believe that the so-called "diverse" gay lifestyle is so open to an unlimited number of things bright, odd and beautiful, and that in the end that lack of clarity and lack of sympathy and a ill-defined community diminishes the acceptance of gay men in our culture.

lack of acceptance = lack of understanding and homophobia etc.

but as i've said here before, and as i've said in public, and in public speeches -- there is no one to blame for homophobia except the gay community itself.

it is the gay community who must come together and fix the perceptions by practicing morality, condemning what is immoral, becoming part of the larger straight community rather than just living in the silo-thinking "lbgt center" and demanding special recognition for simply being alive.

all of this probably explains why i rarely ever participate in anything "gay." :-) it is not what defines me at all.

_________________________
Jeff

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#382302 - 01/13/12 04:15 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: Edward Wong]
Castle Offline


Registered: 10/03/09
Posts: 727
Loc: NJ
TY for trusting us.

sounds like a good caring wife.

Maybe It's time to give it another shot?

Still on the SSRI's? feeling devout of emotion?

I understand numbing, legal and illegal.

Do you share any common interests with the BIL?

Dont conceed to just numbing it away, you can fight this and not allow the abuse to control your life...You are worth it.

_________________________

My posts can self destruct at any time..read them while you can.

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#382326 - 01/13/12 08:53 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: KMCINVA]
F.A. Offline


Registered: 09/02/11
Posts: 229
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: KMCINVA
I am learning how I perceived myself allowed me to live a life of allowing others to treat me poorly, take advantage of me. I become the whipping boy for others--further diminishing my sense of worth.


This hit me to the core, thank you for the post

_________________________
F.A.

To be sick is to be fragmented. To be healed is to become whole, and to become whole one must be in harmony with family, friends, and nature" -Navajo-
Blog: http://csafresno.blogspot.com
Facebook: http://tinyurl.com/CSAFresno
My Story: http://tinyurl.com/78upvvu

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#382337 - 01/13/12 11:55 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: InsideTheWall]
InsideTheWall Offline


Registered: 01/10/09
Posts: 280
Originally Posted By: InsideTheWall
If I'm homophobic, its because I want to be


Castle: The above is a typo that I would never support, and only just noticed. I very definitely meant to say that I do NOT want to be homophobic and find homophobia wrong. I'm sorry man, and don't blame you for being mad. Please consider the rest of what I wrote.



Edited by InsideTheWall (01/14/12 12:06 AM)

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#382358 - 01/14/12 04:38 AM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: Edward Wong]
whome Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/07/11
Posts: 1734
Loc: Johannesburg South Africa
Wrong post

_________________________
Matrix Men South Africa
Survivors Supporting Each other
Matrix Men Blog

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#382359 - 01/14/12 04:42 AM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: Edward Wong]
whome Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/07/11
Posts: 1734
Loc: Johannesburg South Africa
Hi Edward

I am really happy that your wife is encouraging you to move forward with your healing, and Please don't feel discouraged about asking the hard questions, that IS WHY WE ARE ALL HERE. Hopefully to help answer the hard questions without judgement.

We all share a similar pain.

Heal well
Martin



Edited by whome (01/14/12 04:43 AM)
_________________________
Matrix Men South Africa
Survivors Supporting Each other
Matrix Men Blog

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#382365 - 01/14/12 10:35 AM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: F.A.]
KMCINVA Offline
Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1570
Yes it is hard to accept how others treat people. But once you stand up for yourself and no longer allow yourself to be treated poorly, taken advantage of or sadly tormented, you learn that you were only valued for the moment--what you gave without expectations or thanks was taken for granted. Sadly, this behavior is learned from others. It was just expected that I would do and take all the s**t, give of myself,buy whatever anyone wanted and so on--ask for help and you are told they are entitled to it. And along the way I made mistakes. But it helps me sort through who is truly a good and caring person, who walks the talk and just does not talk and a person who will stand behind me and I them.

In troubled times you learn who understands love and support and who can give it. It shows their true character.



Edited by KMCINVA (01/14/12 10:52 AM)

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#382368 - 01/14/12 11:02 AM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: Edward Wong]
1lifenow Offline


Registered: 03/07/11
Posts: 393
Loc: west coast
The point you make here you make is really important.

Dig up pain causes life to be fucked up OR dull the nervous system down to be a zombie. Based on what your experience was, I can understand why you look at this as either/ or. Black or white, on or off, friend or foe - period.

It took going to different T's to understand there are more options. What if you could dig up the pain in a controled way? What about learning how to access the memories, reframe them so they do not trigger your body to go into total flight or fight. So you don't have that understandable but irrational visceral response to your brother in law?

"You can overcome the grip of past trauma to have more connections and healthy intimacy in your relationships now." That's what people like Dr. Diane Heller and other somatic exeperiencing therapists help you do. Its easy to dig up and wallow in the pain but then it fucks you up. Its easy to take drugs so the nervous system has no visceral response so you don't feel the pain but none of the pleasure of life either. Neither option is great.

Make no mistake, it takes real work to take other options that are out there. But they are out there.

I wish you well, you clearly want things different and that in and of itself is growth. Your wife is gently nudging , let yourself take the hand of someone ahead of you to guide you forward.

cheers

grant





Edited by 1lifenow (01/14/12 11:03 AM)
_________________________
The need for love lies at the very foundation of human existence. Dalai Lama

WoR Barrie 2011

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#382408 - 01/14/12 08:16 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: Castle]
AdamJae Offline


Registered: 12/07/11
Posts: 42
Loc: Oklahoma
This thread kind of made my stomach turn, because I'm a victim of CSA and also was a victim of a hate from less than 3 months ago because I'm gay.. a group of men jumped a friend and I on the mere assumption that we were a gay couple. yes I am gay but no one has a right to hate me based on that fact.. itI understand your reasoning and admire the fact that you know its misplaced anger.. but to hate gay men because you were abused wrong. it would be like me hating all male relatives because my cousin was my perpetrator. its undeniably wrong to hate or punish because of a personal experience. this is merely my opinion as you are entitled to yours. but, being homophobic is a close step to possibly committing a hate crime, much like CSA. both are a violation of basic human rights. please seek out the proper help you need to move past your hatred for your family and for your own peace of mind. and as always good luck on your journey to recovery! smile I hope no one was offended by my opinion and if you are I apologize because it was not my intention. this thread just struck close to home.

_________________________
Sail

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#382409 - 01/14/12 08:17 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: AdamJae]
AdamJae Offline


Registered: 12/07/11
Posts: 42
Loc: Oklahoma
* hate crime * sorry for they typo. I was a victim of a hate crime

_________________________
Sail

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#382444 - 01/15/12 10:32 AM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: AdamJae]
whome Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/07/11
Posts: 1734
Loc: Johannesburg South Africa
I have read through this thread, and It hurts.
I see so much Judgement and intolerance on the one site where there should be exactly that
This is the one place where People who don't understand their feelings, should be able to ask a question like this without fear of recrimination.
Each person has had a different experience with CSA, and each experience has had a different effect on that individual person. We have no right to offer judgement on his feelings, and the mere fact that he is asking the question, means that He is upset by what he is feeling, and thinking

Before you answer a post it is wise to ask one question "What pain and suffering did this man endure to think/Feel like this"
If you cannot offer advice, Based on your experience, then rather don't comment on the post, but to start saying that this or that behaviour is unacceptable, or to make comment like "men are trying to justify having affairs because of CSA", this could be true for many men, and it is not a justification, but rather a fact that he has had affairs as a direct result of the CSA. CSA HAS HUGE AND VARYING EFFECTS ON DIFFERENT PEOPLE.

Again, the pain and confusion suffered by victims of CSA is very different for each individual, your experience is NOT someone else's experience.

At the end of the day all we have in common is our pain, fear and the CSA, we are an unlikely brotherhood. Lets not turn on one another.

Heal well all
Martin

_________________________
Matrix Men South Africa
Survivors Supporting Each other
Matrix Men Blog

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#382448 - 01/15/12 10:54 AM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: whome]
KMCINVA Offline
Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1570
Martin

Well said-I totally agree with you. Everyone has a different experience and how they react can vary from person to person. I hear people who have not experienced the CSA or studied and worked with those who have suffered CSA espouse that they have all the answers-wrong. Every person is different and how we react depends on our past, who we are, emotional make up and other factors as to our living and social environments.

Yes, everyone who has experienced CSA needs understanding and compassion-but we all have several things in common, the pain, hurt, lack of trust and a sense of not being valued.

So let's support each other and stand together, we all need the support.

Keep healing and stay strong

Kevin


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#382452 - 01/15/12 11:42 AM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: AdamJae]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
Quote:
being homophobic is a close step to possibly committing a hate crime


I find this kind of sentiment very inappropriate and insensitive to the discussion that is going on here. I'm sorry that you were "jumped" in the way that you were but it has nothing to do with victims of CSA and their working out and discussing their feelings of homophobia.

And for you to tie feelings of being fearful or intimidated by gay men (i.e., homophobia) DUE TO CSA, to actually attempt to tie having feelings as "close step to committing a crime", I think its inappropriate. I don't think its helpful to tell people who understand that they have homophobia issues and want to talk about them that they should fix them or they are close to committing a crime.

I think its reasonable to want to discuss homophobia toward you but this forum has been about homophobia due to CSA. I hope you can see the difference and see that your attempts to tie one's feelings due to CSA to criminal actions are somewhat misguided.

Post>


Edited by EdfromNYC (01/15/12 01:47 PM)
Edit Reason: added thoughts
_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#382497 - 01/15/12 09:49 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: EdfromNYC]
AdamJae Offline


Registered: 12/07/11
Posts: 42
Loc: Oklahoma
I sincerely apologize if I have offended anyone or if and person or persons felt attacked by my opinion. I understand that the site is about CSA but since the topic was about homophobia due to CSA it did hit where it hurts. I was not nor did I intend to institute anyone would commit a hate crime but its been my personal experience that homophobia tends to turn into violence. Again I state that this was just a personal experience and I was trying to offer insight to point of view from a gay man. I do applaud him for recognizing his feelings as homophobic and that he is seeking advice on what to do with those emotions or how to handle them. It takes courage to admit being homophobic as well as it took all of us courage to join MS to discuss and seek help with all of our issues with dealing with the effects of CSA. Again I apologize if anyone felt attacked, accused, or belittled in any way shape or form. I was just expressing my thoughts and feelings and did not intend to cause anyone any anger or further pain. I think we all have suffered enough. If my posts are offending people then maybe joining the site last month was a mistake.. because I have never nor would I ever intentionally hurt or offend another survivor. I wish you ALL the very best on your journey to recovery and I commend and applaud each one of you for being able to be open and honest with your thoughts, feelings, opinions, and stories of both joy and pain. GOOD LUCK GUYS AND THE BEST TO ALL OF YOU!

_________________________
Sail

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#382498 - 01/15/12 09:50 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: EdfromNYC]
AdamJae Offline


Registered: 12/07/11
Posts: 42
Loc: Oklahoma
I sincerely apologize if I have offended anyone or if and person or persons felt attacked by my opinion. I understand that the site is about CSA but since the topic was about homophobia due to CSA it did hit where it hurts. I was not nor did I intend to institute anyone would commit a hate crime but its been my personal experience that homophobia tends to turn into violence. Again I state that this was just a personal experience and I was trying to offer insight to point of view from a gay man. I do applaud him for recognizing his feelings as homophobic and that he is seeking advice on what to do with those emotions or how to handle them. It takes courage to admit being homophobic as well as it took all of us courage to join MS to discuss and seek help with all of our issues with dealing with the effects of CSA. Again I apologize if anyone felt attacked, accused, or belittled in any way shape or form. I was just expressing my thoughts and feelings and did not intend to cause anyone any anger or further pain. I think we all have suffered enough. If my posts are offending people then maybe joining the site last month was a mistake.. because I have never nor would I ever intentionally hurt or offend another survivor. I wish you ALL the very best on your journey to recovery and I commend and applaud each one of you for being able to be open and honest with your thoughts, feelings, opinions, and stories of both joy and pain. GOOD LUCK GUYS AND THE BEST TO ALL OF YOU!

_________________________
Sail

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#382499 - 01/15/12 09:57 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: EdfromNYC]
AdamJae Offline


Registered: 12/07/11
Posts: 42
Loc: Oklahoma
I sincerely apologize if I have offended anyone or if and person or persons felt attacked by my opinion. I understand that the site is about CSA but since the topic was about homophobia due to CSA it did hit where it hurts. I was not nor did I intend to institute anyone would commit a hate crime but its been my personal experience that homophobia tends to turn into violence. Again I state that this was just a personal experience and I was trying to offer insight to point of view from a gay man. I do applaud him for recognizing his feelings as homophobic and that he is seeking advice on what to do with those emotions or how to handle them. It takes courage to admit being homophobic as well as it took all of us courage to join MS to discuss and seek help with all of our issues with dealing with the effects of CSA. Again I apologize if anyone felt attacked, accused, or belittled in any way shape or form. I was just expressing my thoughts and feelings and did not intend to cause anyone any anger or further pain. I think we all have suffered enough. If my posts are offending people then maybe joining the site last month was a mistake.. because I have never nor would I ever intentionally hurt or offend another survivor. I wish you ALL the very best on your journey to recovery and I commend and applaud each one of you for being able to be open and honest with your thoughts, feelings, opinions, and stories of both joy and pain. GOOD LUCK GUYS AND THE BEST TO ALL OF YOU!

_________________________
Sail

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#382501 - 01/15/12 09:58 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: EdfromNYC]
AdamJae Offline


Registered: 12/07/11
Posts: 42
Loc: Oklahoma
I sincerely apologize if I have offended anyone or if and person or persons felt attacked by my opinion. I understand that the site is about CSA but since the topic was about homophobia due to CSA it did hit where it hurts. I was not nor did I intend to institute anyone would commit a hate crime but its been my personal experience that homophobia tends to turn into violence. Again I state that this was just a personal experience and I was trying to offer insight to point of view from a gay man. I do applaud him for recognizing his feelings as homophobic and that he is seeking advice on what to do with those emotions or how to handle them. It takes courage to admit being homophobic as well as it took all of us courage to join MS to discuss and seek help with all of our issues with dealing with the effects of CSA. Again I apologize if anyone felt attacked, accused, or belittled in any way shape or form. I was just expressing my thoughts and feelings and did not intend to cause anyone any anger or further pain. I think we all have suffered enough. If my posts are offending people then maybe joining the site last month was a mistake.. because I have never nor would I ever intentionally hurt or offend another survivor. I wish you ALL the very best on your journey to recovery and I commend and applaud each one of you for being able to be open and honest with your thoughts, feelings, opinions, and stories of both joy and pain. GOOD LUCK GUYS AND THE BEST TO ALL OF YOU!

_________________________
Sail

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#382504 - 01/15/12 11:39 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: AdamJae]
InsideTheWall Offline


Registered: 01/10/09
Posts: 280
AdamJae:

Even though I'm straight and homosexuality is a trigger, I think you're trying just as hard as I am to be an accepting person. If more people were like us, there might not be so many problems related to this.





Edited by InsideTheWall (01/15/12 11:42 PM)

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#382513 - 01/16/12 03:23 AM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: InsideTheWall]
Andre808 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/15/11
Posts: 15
Loc: Honolulu, Hawaii
Wow, this discussion has really developed. I'm sorry to equate homosexuality with racism. I did not mean to offend anyone or make an inappropriate connection.

I don't want to assume to much, but it sounds Edward that you are Asian also. I am Filipino and was abused by my half-brother. It made me very homophobic too. I didn't want to be thought of as gay since my perpetrator was another man, so being hateful towards gays was a way to justify to myself that I wasn't. I am straight, but I have learned that I don't need to hate gays to be straight, or to be happy, or to feel whole again. I started hanging out with gays and lesbians, and guess what, they're just human beings. They can be jerks or assholes, just like straight people. They can also be beautiful, funny and caring, just like straight people. As a matter of fact, my best boss ever was gay and he's a friend til this day.

I wanted to share this with you because I do know where you are coming from Edward. Like I said before, it takes time and an open heart.

Andre


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#382518 - 01/16/12 07:29 AM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: AdamJae]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
Adam Jae,

There's no reason for you to leave. I'm one person who responded to your post and yes, I had a strong reaction but I wouldn't want to see you leave out of fear of offending people. You didn't mean to stir stuff up like your post did but sometimes stirring stuff up isn't a bad thing.

We're not the moderators and someone would let you know if you were being offensive or hurtful.

Please stay here if it helps you.





Edited by EdfromNYC (01/16/12 07:33 AM)
_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#382532 - 01/16/12 11:14 AM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: AdamJae]
F.A. Offline


Registered: 09/02/11
Posts: 229
Loc: United States
Your feelings are your feeling no more no less. As victims of abuse we have so many things blocking us and bringing us down we need to validate those feeling with people who suffered as we did and as fellow victims we need to understand that while it maybe hard to hear or understand we still need to be open enough and have compassion enough for those trying to heal and be honest. Honesty is a great gift that should not be punished. Also as survivors we have a right to share the feeling of any post that made us feel badly but nothing should stop us from our shared journey of healing the wrongs done to us.

_________________________
F.A.

To be sick is to be fragmented. To be healed is to become whole, and to become whole one must be in harmony with family, friends, and nature" -Navajo-
Blog: http://csafresno.blogspot.com
Facebook: http://tinyurl.com/CSAFresno
My Story: http://tinyurl.com/78upvvu

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#382548 - 01/16/12 06:24 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: F.A.]
Older1 Offline


Registered: 12/19/11
Posts: 51
This thread has been very interesting and a valuable contribution to the healing of many who are members and also to any visitors who fall upon these postings.
I admire Adam for his delving into this in such a generous and open manner. It is not often that we have the privilege of seeing inside the complex misunderstandings surrounding the combination of CSA, homosexuality, gender identity, homophobia, and sex addiction.
The literature I have seen on CSA dispels the myth that CSA causes boys to become gay. Fortunately, sexual orientation and attraction is thought to be independent of CSA issues. Nevertheless, the roads to healing from CSA may be different for different genders, gender identities, sexual orientations, and expressions.


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#382556 - 01/16/12 09:39 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: Older1]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
Quote:
The literature I have seen on CSA dispels the myth that CSA causes boys to become gay. Fortunately, sexual orientation and attraction is thought to be independent of CSA issues.


Stick around, I see you're new so welcome.

If you get a chance, read some of the posts under the Sexual Identity forum. Sexual identity issues are a big, big, BIG, theme on here. The more time I spend here, the more I realize that there is no expert or literature that fully encompasses what we as a range of male survivors have gone through and how we deal with it today.

I know that my orientation/attraction that I have had toward men (and still have issues with) is a combination of my CSA which only happened due being entrusted to emotionally neglectful, unloving and messed up people who were my parents. For me, my CSA absolutely led to my orientation/attraction system being one helluva mess.

Once a man touched me sexually when I was a boy, it changed me forever. I wish I could have known what it was like to not have been touched sexually by an adult and to have had the opportunity to let it happen in a way where I was in control with someone who was equally vulnerable. I also wish worrying about sex and my orientation didn't eat up so much of my time and energy as it has over many, many years.

For me, orientation/attraction is not a simple issue.



Edited by EdfromNYC (01/16/12 09:43 PM)
_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#382568 - 01/17/12 01:02 AM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: EdfromNYC]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1293
I have read this thread carefully and think everyone has excellent points, even those who differ. For someone to say they are homophobic - openly - creates an incredible paradox. All at once they are revealling both a hurtful attitude towards others and an open, candid vulnerability. I think EdfromNYC is absolutely correct in saying the focus should be on Ed's willingness to be open and recognize this issuet. But I also fully understand the trigger such hatred can bring to others.

So I don't think there is a right or wrong here. Looking at it like racism is one perspective I suppose. But what if instead of homophobia, Ed was expressing a wish to purge an urge of pedophilia? I think the same arguments would be equally valid, but suddenly more of us would definitely understand those negative triggers, being survivors of pedophilia ourselves.

Homophobia is probably more like racism, however, since each derive ultimately from irrational fears, while pedophilia is more of a sexual orientation issue.

I know what it's like to carry that irrational fear around in my head. I was where Ed is now - and it's a tough place to be. I never had the means or possibly the courage to come out and admit it like he did here. So I applaud Ed and as a gay person I would be happy to offer any additional perspectives to him on this.

I'm certainly not a very religious person, but if ever there was truth to the adage "love the sinner but hate the sin", this is it. Maybe it's even like an excorcism. Ed's doing the work from honest self-appraisal, working hard to shed the hate because - deep down - he knows it isn't right. That's all anyone should expect.

_________________________



Click my pic to see why I'm here

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#382594 - 01/17/12 09:46 AM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: Chase Eric]
KMCINVA Offline
Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1570
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Ed Wong--try to think how your brother-in-law may feel when he senses your dislike. He did not do this to you. Also think how your words and actions may influence others around you--children and others. Words and actions can be powerful--I heard from one of my children that I ruined their life because I moved them from a place in NY to a larger home in a neighboring state 50 miles away at the age of 5/6 and how his mother hated the people there--he is now in his late 20's. As to what he said about his mother, those were her words and not his--he heard the words many times. So he hates everyone in that State and the State itself. Strangely most of the people in that town are transplants from other areas including the place in NY. So words and actions can influence especially if you have a highly influential or controlling position in a young person's life. Repetition of words and actions can be reinforcing.

You are entitled to your views but keep it to yourself and do not bring your children into the fray on this issue or other issues that can be perceived as hurtful, painful or private--your brother-in-law is your children's uncle and your children need to learn and form their own opinions on how people live their lives. There are good and bad in every category--age, race, religion, ethnic background, and even different places where people live and so on. So lumping everyone of a particular subgroup into one bucket is not fair. Many of the perps are not gay--just deviant and controlling individuals.

But I respect your opinion because I have my own issues I am dealing with--acting out when I am not gay-regaining lost time- and like many of us I lost part of my sexual self as a child and I am regaining it and understanding who I am. As you know CSA effects each of us differently. My acting out was to gain control over the past, which I now know never works and to compensate for the feeling of being unworthy from actions and words from those around me and the CSA. I have met people who bring joy, happiness and excitement to my life and they reaffirm who I was and one day I hope to be blessed with a compassionate and caring woman by my side.

If I accepted the words of those around me, I would have long been gone-really gone-give the good a chance no matter what their preferences may be--

But together will heal and face the past--our CSA is the same but how we react, its effects and how we heal will be different but the goal is to heal. We need to understand and appreciate each other to achieve our goal of healing.



Edited by KMCINVA (01/17/12 01:22 PM)

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#382649 - 01/17/12 08:53 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: Edward Wong]
Avery46 Offline


Registered: 09/23/10
Posts: 1243
Loc: USA
This an interesting post guys. I appreciate all of your experiences.

Avery

_________________________
aka DJsport

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#382970 - 01/20/12 04:59 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: westchesterguy]
arty Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/12/04
Posts: 20
Loc: Mass
Originally Posted By: westchesterguy
there is no one to blame for homophobia except the gay community itself.


This is messed up. Would you say the same of Women encountering misogyny? I think not. I have heard this kind of logic before, but it doesn't hold water. Look people have to be responsible for their own actions. If people say mean or hateful things it is not the person they are ripping apart's problem - no matter what!


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#383013 - 01/21/12 06:46 AM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: arty]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: arty
....This is messed up. Would you say the same of Women encountering misogyny?


good question arty; i do not view a parallel line of reasoning between society's view/belief of gays and how some men feel about women.

here is a question for you arty: why is it that i along with my three closest friends have nothing to do with, and want nothing to do with the "gay community?"

answer: like it or not, call it prejudice if you will, the gay community that the greater society "accepts to be true" is not who we are. i.e. flags, fetishes, leather, parades, bears, trans(whatever), depicted as such on tv or in movies. not us. and yet it is those exact same reasons why people snicker, post nasty comments online, go out of their way to condemn "gays" in communities around the country.

so, as i stated in the original quote: the gay community must fix their perception problem.

it is the gay community's responsibility to prove itself as "active," "passionate" members of the greater society... not simply demanding special treatment without giving back.

it is the gay community's responsibility to show society they no longer support nambla -- and any other fringe group of yore -- and to show its not just about being in a drag parade.

show society that the gay community is not about promiscuity, show that gays are commitment-oriented and hold high levels of morality.

yes, something is messed up, i agree with that term - but only as it is directed at lack of leadership in the gay community. fix that - homophobia vanishes.


_________________________
Jeff

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#383015 - 01/21/12 09:34 AM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: Avery46]
mike13 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/02/11
Posts: 419
Loc: California USA
Interesting post I never thought I was homophobic but the thought of giving or receiving anal scares the hell out of me. I have had the chance to have many gay friends and had the privilege to be by the side of two gay friends who lost there battle to AIDS. I know it is easy to let the past rule our lives but remember when we let that happen we are only hurting ourselfs.


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#383041 - 01/21/12 06:37 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: westchesterguy]
prisonerID Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
No, homophobia will not vanish with any or all of the suggestions that you made here. It will exist in the hearts of those who choose to carry that prejudice until they decide to make a change.

I do think Arty did have a valid point about women since many men blame some of the ills of the country on feminists.

I am what one might term a pretty low key guy who happens to be gay. I could pass as straight if I wished to do so, do not participate in drag in any form and so on. But I do not think I should be considered any more deserving than a guy who leans in the more dramatic direction.

If we begin to decide who deserves rights then some folks will always be left out of the mix. Would we do that within the more core groups of an ethnic group?


Daryl

PS In response to what one post here: I do not think of homophobia as someone who does not wish to have sexual relations with someone of the same sex. That is personal choice as well as one's orientation. I have absolutely no desire to have sex with a woman but do not feel I am "heterosexual-phobic". That is just something I do not desire.



Edited by prisonerID (01/21/12 06:46 PM)
Edit Reason: PS added
_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

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#383114 - 01/22/12 03:54 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: prisonerID]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: prisonerID
No, homophobia will not vanish with any or all of the suggestions that you made here....


i can understand why the suggestions wouldn't resonate as a solution - because they've never been tried....

only nowadays to attempt those suggestions one would have to sell his story as well as counter the media-driven perception of glbt labels. hm, which doesn't happen to include me as their ultra-conservative poster boy.

who is powerful and connected enough to make "gay-related news" about, say, corporate leaders across the fortune 500 sector who have set up college education funds for various disadvantaged kids...or leading a business redevelopment project in a high-unemployment center to bring jobs back from india... rather than making the weekly headline about "who just came out in hollywood" and / or the colorful, gay pride parade as our themed annual headline?

where exactly online are gay executives and professionals discussing economic solutions and ways to fix our broken public education system, which would foster benefits for everyone...rather than hit the fetish websites for bears and feet?

i say there is even more of a reason today to harbor homophobic views if someone in the general population assumes that the fringe represents "all."

what else is visible?

for that reason, i don't draw a parallel with feminism here; firstly, because women are highly visible - they make up the majority of our population (numerically speaking).

secondly, and even though i am a feminist myself, i too understand how the "women's movement" hurt men. and me. equality came, but without a transition. the pool of talent was just dumped in our laps, and doubled within a decade of liberation -- and now women and men compete for the same corporate jobs today that, prior to liberation, only our dads/ grandfathers held.... but the pool of jobs has been in steady decline for 20 years.

as someone actively looking for a new job (where i can be gay without being fired for it), enough recruiters confirm privately to me that "all things being equal" between my CV and that of a female competitor, she would get the job.

therefore, i am the one who has to jump higher, i have go that extra mile.... gays must too if we want to diminish homophobia, in my view.

_________________________
Jeff

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#383124 - 01/22/12 04:27 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: westchesterguy]
ksequoia Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 92
Loc: NYC
This is infuriating. Period. Walk the extra mile so you can hate us a little less? Here are my shoes - now go and walk in them.


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#383128 - 01/22/12 04:53 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: ksequoia]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: ksequoia
This is infuriating. Period. Walk the extra mile so you can hate us a little less? Here are my shoes - now go and walk in them.


isn't that the case for survivors as well? society doesn't just wake up one day and totally sympathize with male survivors of sexual abuse.

we have to (or 'had to' since i was doing that in the '90s) educate that "population" of non-survivors that 1) we don't reciprocate pedophilia - so no need to fear us, right? 2) we didn't ask for it, right? the list goes on and you know the score.

how is this any different?


_________________________
Jeff

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#383129 - 01/22/12 05:00 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: westchesterguy]
prisonerID Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
I think many gay folks do this day in and day out and is evident in both gay oriented publications as well as in mainstream. This evidence is there for anyone to see if they wish to see the opposite of how they feel towards any population. Including those with an alternative lifestyle.

And that goes for those from within our community as well. Self hatred is abundant within the gay community due to the pressure and prejudice of many from general society. We have to be careful that we do not buy into those lies as well.

Just as survivors of sexual abuse/assault must as well.


Daryl

_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

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#383131 - 01/22/12 05:59 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: prisonerID]
Anthony39 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 345
Loc: Montreal, Canada
this is all i have to say:

Watch it : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hqp6GnYqIjQ

_________________________
Look up and not down; look forward and not back; look out and not in; and lend a hand.
E. E. Hale


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM213aMKTHg

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#383135 - 01/22/12 06:05 PM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: prisonerID]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: prisonerID
...This evidence is there for anyone to see if they wish to see the opposite of how they feel towards any population.


maybe some of these answers are reflecting generational gaps.... i don't know, prisonerID. young gay guys today seem to get on fine with flashcards and a youtube video and build great relationships with hundreds of anonymous supporters whom they'll never touch in real life and all is "fine with the world."

i don't know everyone's age here. the evidence you are speaking of is there.... but "build and ye shall come," or post and "ye shall read"... does not work in the world that i come from.

today -- people read what they already know and consider themselves enlightened.

they congregate online where folks of their same ideology already agree. now, to me - that is just a ridiculous reflection and sign of our forever divided culture. and it achieves nothing.

since your location says oklahoma, maybe you'll appreciate this more than someone from ny. when i was 19, in 1983, landed in dallas, applied for a job and was asked during the interview -- because i was not married by 19-- "you ain't one of them fags are you?"

since i was "smart" at the time, my answer was "oh, no, sir."

i lied.

he hire me.

i rejoiced to have landed a job...

i was desensitized to homophobia, because i was not entitled to anything.

nonetheless, within two years, i was the best crew chief the company had....because i busted my butt. and that same boss-man liked me. he also, by that time, learned that i was indeed gay as the rumors spread i was being seen at bars on cedar springs. he didn't change how he used the word fag around me, however, he respect me enough to put his son on my crew so that i could teach him the business.

in my view, i had won. but i did it by serving my boss the best way i could -- and making him look good to our customers. i never carried a flag. i never threatened to sue. i never thought i was better than he. i laughed at his "fag" jokes.

he didn't realize how i learned more about him than he did me.... and maybe that is for the best.

i never once felt "entitled" to be treated fairly or equally simply because i existed nor did i demand a law to give me equal rights or protection from his homophobia. i had to earn his respect, the hard, old fashioned, face2face way and in so doing... i think "i alone" made him think that gay guys might not be quite as bad as he originally thought.

sigh. same path in 2010s, ironically enough ...my homophobic, rather abusive boss uses "me" as the example other employes should follow, and today that "great gay community" pitching the mainstream for their agenda and legal acceptance is no more interested in helping little old "me" as they were in 1983.

all i can handle is one homophobe at a time.

i almost think i have a more legitimate reason to dislike gay people than homophobes! different topic though.


_________________________
Jeff

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#383195 - 01/23/12 01:47 AM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: westchesterguy]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1293
Quote:
so, as i stated in the original quote: the gay community must fix their perception problem.

it is the gay community's responsibility to prove itself as "active," "passionate" members of the greater society... not simply demanding special treatment without giving back.

it is the gay community's responsibility to show society they no longer support nambla -- and any other fringe group of yore -- and to show its not just about being in a drag parade.

show society that the gay community is not about promiscuity, show that gays are commitment-oriented and hold high levels of morality.

yes, something is messed up, i agree with that term - but only as it is directed at lack of leadership in the gay community. fix that - homophobia vanishes.

Jeff, this response is not intended to be inflammatory in any way. But I have come to the gradual realization that I AM a member of the community in which you speak, and I can't help but feel your words are directed to ME, even though I'm sure you don't intend me in particular. Still, I cannot remain silent and hope you will allow for this rather equally assertive response. I intend no disrespect or ill-will, but it must be said...

Your story is admirable in that you could "take" the homophobia that was dished out to you. You took it like a man, and "won over" your old boss by simply living an exemplary life. You didn't stand up for yourself when you became - in essence - the butt of the "fag" jokes. Yet you disparage the "gay community" for being "no more interested in helping little old 'me' as they were in 1983." Well, like it or not, as a gay person, you ARE a member of the community. Who did YOU help?

The gay "community" is so much more than the carnival of bears, leather fetishes, and biker dykes you describe, and to define it by those elements alone is to buy wholesale into the shortsightedness of others. The gay community is in fact so deeply integrated into society that most people have accepted their members without even realizing who they are. They include civic leaders, emergency room doctors, pilots, soldiers, politicians, actors, financial analysts ... everyone. The community by and large is enormously discrete and quiet. You are a part of that silent group, as - to a large part - am I.

I myself am like you in that I do not draw attention to my sexuality. It is not a noticable artifact of my personality. But I am proud of who I am, and do not disconnect myself from my community. To buy into the stereotypes, ridicule the community based on it's most flamboyant characters, and quietly blend in may seem the more genteel approach, but make no mistake that community that you shun is the community to which you belong.

Quote:
i never once felt "entitled" to be treated fairly or equally simply because i existed nor did i demand a law to give me equal rights or protection from his homophobia.

It's not about entitlements. It IS about equal rights. We ask for nothing more. We should settle for nothing less. In the state in which I live, I can be legally fired if my sexuality were discovered. I can't marry the person I love, even though we have built a life together in a committed relationship for several years. If one of us dies, there may be nothing left for the partner after the siblings lay claim. If one of us gets critically ill or injured, the other can be legally barred from hospital visitation rights. And we in the USA have it easy. There are still several countries that execute citizens just for being gay.

And homophobia is toxic on so many other levels. It adds to the stigma of sexual abuse - it kept my mouth shut for years. My own sister was being abused by the same guy who was abusing me, and I couldn't turn him in without revealing myself as a filthy little 13-year old gay boy I was convinced at the time I was. So my sister suffered for my sins of silence, and I'm still trying to find forgiveness for myself. I will be silent no more.

Look deeper than the surface fluff of this community and you will see what the it really is. Harvey Milk was certainly not afraid to wear his sexual identity on his sleeve. His character, however, belied that seeming superficiality, having arguably done more to advance the cause of equal rights for the community than any single person since. Despite his immersion into the most defining aspects of the gay community, his personal courage and strength were extraordinary. He was not silent. He did not "blend". And gay people everywhere breath a little easier even today because of that.

I know one man who enjoys the pride festivities in our town and marches in the parade. I suspect that if you saw him, you may see him as just another ridiculous member of the "gay community" that hasn't done anything for you. What you don't see is that this man received numerous air medals, a couple of dfc's and a purple heart for leading F4 missions deep into North Vietnam. What you don't see is that this man - after having been discharged merely because they discovered he was gay - saved a full plane-load of passengers when an engine flamed out on his 737 right after take-off. I know this man - I know him very well, in fact. I know he never shares any of those stories with others. He's just your quiet, unassuming but sometimes celebratory gay. But I just flat read the citations. And perhaps his celebration has a different meaning now - the connection with a community that - in the final analysis - is where he always belonged.

Would you disparage him for being part of a spectacle? Perhaps. Yet one needs only open his eyes a bit more to realize he ought to salute him instead. There are many like him in the community - the depth can be amazing sometimes...

And when I see a gay soldier, risking everything in his life for US, asking a question at a political town hall debate some months back and being booed by the audience, it makes me question my own silence even more. Not one politician stood up for him. Not one. These are the same politicians who are vieing over a job in which they will be empowered to put this man in harms way for the sake of our national interests, yet he deserves not even the respect of a single word by them on his behalf. The silence of support for the gay community is deafening.

And so I would argue not to bemoan and disavow the community. Look deeper, and find your place in it. Don't be silent - speak out. And respect that others who have found their own place at least have the courage to be heard, knowing there is almost certainly more to them than meets the eye.

_________________________



Click my pic to see why I'm here

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#383198 - 01/23/12 03:01 AM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: westchesterguy]
1lifenow Offline


Registered: 03/07/11
Posts: 393
Loc: west coast
Is this what I read with my own purple coloured glasses? you actually wrote this West Jeff?:

call it prejudice if you will, the gay community that the greater society "accepts to be true" is not who we are. i.e. flags, fetishes, leather, parades, bears, trans(whatever), depicted as such on tv or in movies. not us. and yet it is those exact same reasons why people snicker, post nasty comments online, go out of their way to condemn "gays" in communities around the country.

so, as i stated in the original quote: the gay community must fix their perception problem.

it is the gay community's responsibility to prove itself as "active," "passionate" members of the greater society... not simply demanding special treatment(3) without giving back.

it is the gay community's responsibility to show society they no longer support nambla(2) -- and any other fringe group of yore -- and to show its not just about being in a drag parade.

show society that the gay community is not about promiscuity, show that gays are commitment-oriented and hold high levels of morality.

yes, something is messed up, i agree with that term - but only as it is directed at lack of leadership in the gay community. fix that(1) - homophobia vanishes.


Holy shit, this rationale is so twisted:

1) Lets back extrapolate - by your reasoning, if "gays" were just good strong silent types sort of john wayne but without the funny walk, there should and would be no problems with homophobia. I don't think it worked in iran where last i checked there are no scheduled parades. Maybe those teenages who were hanged were those upitty type of homos - in your face fancy nancy bois. Also nazi germany, can't remember if the pink triangle preceded the rainbow but oh ya , gays were the last ones liberated cuz well they were probably too busy doing the bony emaciated bear fetish thing.

2) So many gay groups have denounced NAMBLA your assertion is frankly just bunk. However, The catholic churches own study suggested that the reason priests were pedophiles was all a result of the SWINGING 60's.
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011...eviant-priests/

3) OMG, no "special" treatment, not once not ever. But just the same treatment and basic human respect. I guess trying to get equal recognition for mariage is not showing the str8 community that the only thing on gays mind is promiscuity. Damn those mixed messages.


One of my buddies is a corrections officer. Unflamboyent gay guy who has earned the respect of his co-workers due to hard work and good character. He IS doing it in the trenches and has seen the fag jokes, and mistrust diminish not cuz he laughs along, cuz he is out there and they see how this man is not someone who is less than in any way. Oh and he is trying to organize representation for Corrections Canada to be in the next pride parade, like the RCMP, the fire department and Coast guard already are. He has the support of his co-workers.

I am sorry your experience has left you so jaded but please have some balance.

My son says that the common vernacular for the word "gay" being lame is too prevalent to change easily. Just like people use to bargain by "jewing you down" and "what? am i black?" meant hey dont i rate? Neither of these is ok anymore. So my son said his new pants were "flaming" cuz they were brightly colored and to him that meant crazy cool good. So thats what we need. A flaming end to the homophobia already, especially from within.

grant

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The need for love lies at the very foundation of human existence. Dalai Lama

WoR Barrie 2011

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#383203 - 01/23/12 06:06 AM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: Chase Eric]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: Chase Eric
....Who did YOU help?


i have given shelter and food to homeless, hustler gay kids as much and as often as was possible.

i have worked with two lgbt centers to develop male childhood sexual abuse awareness programs...but the greatest achievement was convincing them such a program was needed at all.

in the three screenplays i've written so far the gay character was the hero -- i.e. a strong, complex, upstanding male who was not in any way reinforcing society's stereotypes.

and whenever possible online --using my full legal name, which my boss does not know-- i defend gay males when those stereotypes are being used either in the news story or by the ignorant folks commenting anonymously. the dadt issue was big on that front.

some could say these points are unremarkable. i would agree in theory, depending upon where someone comes from -- however, given that for the past 30 years i have been one penny away from homelessness myself 50% of that time, including now, therefore my actions have been as limited as resources allow.

have any of those actions helped? with the exception of the last one, which of course can be briefly monitored until such comments are simply buried; i empower, i fund, create, set-up the initial stage and then let it go to survive on its own if its meant to.

has this thread, which is now 8 pages long, changed someone's view of gays or lessened their homophobia at all?

what is the measure of achievement with these posts?


_________________________
Jeff

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#383204 - 01/23/12 06:19 AM Re: Homophobic because of the Abuse [Re: westchesterguy]
ModTeam Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 690
Gentlemen,

At this point, this topic appears to be causing more division and discord than it is healing, and its usefulness has run its course. With this in mind, the thread is being closed. We ask that the discussion not be carried to other threads unless or until those involved can treat each other with respect and civility. Any discussions that do not meet that basic criteria will be closed and further action taken if deemed necessary.

The Moderator Team

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