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#380924 - 12/28/11 05:49 PM Does God offer forgiveness to even our perps?
Undefeated Offline


Registered: 12/12/11
Posts: 175
Loc: Colorado, USA
Originally Posted By: westchesterguy
Originally Posted By: Undefeated
......"to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace"...


i am curious how that works. if "our" sins are forgiven, then doesn't it mean that my rapist's sins were too since he was part of "our"? he and i are just equals after all is said and done?

Jeff,

This is a good question. My first thought was why you would ask this? What I am wondering, is would you (we) reject God's gift of forgiveness and eternal life through Christ, if/because He has offered it to your (our) perps?

First of all, I see that one must accept God's gift of eternal life through repentance (acknowledging their sins), then by placing faith (believing) that Christ died for them.
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved."
(John 3:16-17 NKJV)
If the perp, or anyone for that matter, doesn't believe Christ died for them, they do not receive eternal life.

He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
(John 3:18 NKJV)

Then I think this passage about the thief on the cross answers your question too:
Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom." And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
(Luke 23:42-43 NKJV)

Also, Jesus said this about those that crucified Him:
Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do."
(Luke 23:34 NKJV)

Maybe all this is another reason Jesus said that we should forgive those that sin against us? If we forgive them and let their eternal destiny lay in God's hands, it doesn't make us so bitter and angry that we reject anything good God gives to us?

By the way, I believe forgiving our perps doesn't "let them off the hook." They still owe us restitution for the damage they did to us and our lives.

_________________________
"The sexual abuse and exploitation of children is one of the most vicious crimes conceivable, a violation of mankind's most basic duty to protect the innocent." ~James T. Walsh

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#380946 - 12/29/11 01:00 AM Re: Does God offer forgiveness to even our perps? [Re: Undefeated]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6857
Loc: USA
I can't add much to the response of Undefeated. But I think that the forgiveness is dependent on whether the person is open to receive the it. See how King Herod III in biblical times didn't want to be forgiven, and he died alone. The other thief on the other side of the cross apparently remained unrepentant.

Puffer


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#380948 - 12/29/11 01:38 AM Re: Does God offer forgiveness to even our perps? [Re: Undefeated]
ALIVE 3n1 Offline


Registered: 12/24/11
Posts: 76
Loc: Throne Room of God
I have wrestled with this also until I understood the difference between Godly repentance and worldly sorrow.

2 Corinthians 7:9-11
9 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death. 11 For observe this very thing, that you sorrowed in a godly manner: What diligence it produced in you, what clearing of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what vehement desire, what zeal, what vindication! In all things you proved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

What this sorrow of the world means, "Man, I got caught. Wait that punishment is to great. What about me? Look what happened to me. You should feel sorry for me." It is all about me. It is a selfish, self preserving repentance.

Godly repentance is basically falling on your sword. You don't care about yourself. You will do anything to rectify the pain and suffering you have caused others. You will puke up all your sins freely.

I hope this helps on the repentance aspect.


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#380956 - 12/29/11 07:30 AM Re: Does God offer forgiveness to even our perps? [Re: ALIVE 3n1]
mike13 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/02/11
Posts: 419
Loc: California USA
I love how you state that alive. For something major like being a perp. I know that Heavenly Father wants to see some godly like sorrow. Not because he wants to see us in pain so much as he wants the repentance process to be strong enough to prevent a repeat of the sin. I am greatful that in my Fathers house are many mansions because I don't think I am ready to have my perps as my next door neighbors Mike


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#380966 - 12/29/11 10:41 AM Re: Does God offer forgiveness to even our perps? [Re: Undefeated]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: Undefeated
....What I am wondering, is would you (we) reject God's gift of forgiveness and eternal life through Christ, if/because He has offered it to your (our) perps?


that is a good question.

now, this won't be a popular answer i assume, but i must say that "yes" i would reject all things eternal if (for lack of better de>


Edited by westchesterguy (12/29/11 10:44 AM)
_________________________
Jeff

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#380968 - 12/29/11 11:10 AM Re: Does God offer forgiveness to even our perps? [Re: westchesterguy]
Undefeated Offline


Registered: 12/12/11
Posts: 175
Loc: Colorado, USA
Jeff,

I suspect from what you say, your perp did not believe unto salvation. All that Catholic devotion and "statues in his home as decorative accents" won't save anyone. This is why God says,
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."
(Ephesians 2:8-9 NKJV)
It definitely sounds like your perp was trying to earn his own salvation. That is a lie and no one ever could earn their own salvation.

Here's what God says about that:
"Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt."
(Romans 4:4 NKJV)

My perp was/is a very devout Roman Catholic. I too was Roman Catholic and I "believed," but when I was a Catholic, I was completely lost. A simple mental ascent to the facts of Jesus existence and doctrinal facts is not what true believing is.

Your perp did enough damage to you, and I am very sorry for all the harm he did. I understand, because my perp destroyed my entire life as well. I am not going to let my perp and hatred for him and what he did to me, keep me from accepting God's gift of salvation through Christ. To do so, would be letting the perp not only destroy me in this life, but forever. God wins and I win, perp loses!

By the way, since you say you don't want to spend eternity in Heaven with your perp, even if he had placed faith in Christ (which I think you are describing that he did not), who he was as a perp won't be in eternity anyway, based on this:
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
(2 Corinthians 5:17 NKJV)

Don't let the perp keep winning over your life now, nor eternity. That would really be letting him destroy everything. Don't let the jerk win again!

_________________________
"The sexual abuse and exploitation of children is one of the most vicious crimes conceivable, a violation of mankind's most basic duty to protect the innocent." ~James T. Walsh

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#380969 - 12/29/11 11:29 AM Re: Does God offer forgiveness to even our perps? [Re: ALIVE 3n1]
Undefeated Offline


Registered: 12/12/11
Posts: 175
Loc: Colorado, USA
ALIVE 3n1,

Good point on the repentance issue. Thanks for the clarification.

I might point out too that the repentance is not what saves us, but the repentance is what leads us to see that we are nothing but lost sinners, in need of a Savior. Nothing we have done, or ever can do is able to save us. If it could, Jesus died needlessly.

"But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags..."
(Isaiah 64:6a NKJV)

"I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law (i.e. keeping the commandments and being religious), then Christ died in vain."
(Galatians 2:21 NKJV)

_________________________
"The sexual abuse and exploitation of children is one of the most vicious crimes conceivable, a violation of mankind's most basic duty to protect the innocent." ~James T. Walsh

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#380997 - 12/29/11 10:06 PM Re: Does God offer forgiveness to even our perps? [Re: Undefeated]
Mountainous Buck Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/15/09
Posts: 1626
Loc: Minnesota
I'm not one to pull quotes from the Bible-I prefer to relate in my own words my experiences, spiritual and otherwise.

And I have a male friend who was raped as an adult who directed me once to the following bible passage:

It's the words of Jesus

Matthew 18:6 ESV

But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea

_________________________
We have to take responsibility for what we're not responsible for.

“It doesn't matter where you've come from,
It matters where you go" Frank Turner

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#381012 - 12/30/11 02:10 AM Re: Does God offer forgiveness to even our perps? [Re: Undefeated]
ALIVE 3n1 Offline


Registered: 12/24/11
Posts: 76
Loc: Throne Room of God
I agree with you on the fundamentals of the doctrine of salvation. We cannot focus on one without the others.

In my frail human state I have a nice spiritual exercise to make sure I do not focus on any one sin. Yes, it is difficult when it is extremely personal. I tend to look at the earthly consequences of the sin and then assign them the same weight in the spiritual. This is where I am in error. The complete unfathomable purity of God cannot have in his presence one "little" sin.

Sin has its own special rewards here on earth. The more you sin, and or the severity of the sin, the lower you are allowed to go. Take for example a little white lie. Nobody will really know about it, but your conscience will start bothering you. If you do not rectify the situation in your mind, the next time it will become easier and easier. It will slowly began eroding at your very character.

Now if you are one of the ones that God has given Jesus.

John 6:37,39
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

You will be born again. The sin in your life will be working on you like the first 9 months of pregnancy. God is shaping you and conforming you. You will be affected by environmental sin and also personal sin. Sooner or later you will be born again.

Now, if you are one of the ones that has not been given to Jesus by the father.

Romans 1:18-21
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

They will not believe no matter what they see, or hear, or feel. They will not repent and turn from their sins.

Who are the ones who in the course of their lifetime will believe? Only God knows.

Who are the ones damned for eternal destruction? Only God knows.

One thing that we can be sure of though. Good fruit only comes from good trees. Bad fruit will always come from bad trees. The fruit from the bad tree may be pleasing to the eye but it is rotten on the inside.

I hope this helps.


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#381106 - 12/31/11 09:21 AM Re: Does God offer forgiveness to even our perps? [Re: ALIVE 3n1]
SamV Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 5942
Loc: Talladega, Alabama, USA
What is forgiveness? What are the consequences/rewards of being forgiven or not? Could the perpetrator actually be rewarded for being penitent when meeting "The Maker"? Why do we need to be forgiven?

The last one first: Why do we need to be forgiven?
Sin came to the earth from Adam, in the Christian belief, and since this is my background, I will speak to that. Romans 5:12 tells us that through one man sin entered, and that all had sinned due to this first sin. We are all sinners. We all therefore, need forgiveness to be reconciled with our Father in heaven. When we accept this undeserved kindness from Almighty God and Jesus, we can begin to make changes to our lives in preparation for the reward in store for us at the conclusion of this system of things. (2Peter 3:11-13)

What is forgiveness? Again, looking at it from the Bible. *** it-1 pp. 861-862 Forgiveness ***
The act of pardoning an offender; ceasing to feel resentment toward him because of his offense and giving up all claim to recompense. The Hebrew verb sa·lach; (forgive) is used only with regard to God’s pardoning a sinner. The Greek term a·phie·mi literally means “let go off.”—See PARDON.(excerpt from the Publication "Insight on the Scriptures", Watchtower Bible and Tract Society) Forgiveness cancels out sin.

What are the consequences/rewards of being forgiven? Every sin against man will be forgiven.(Matthew 5:31)

Could the perpetrator actually be rewarded for being penitent when meeting "The Maker"? Let us understand that we are living in what the bible calls "critical times"(2Tim 3:1) These are not the conditions God originally wanted mankind to enjoy. There will be a time when God will rule exclusively, and the benefits of the Bible in Psalms 37 and Revelation 21 will be applied liberally to mankind, but not now completely.
In this new system of things, no one will be allowed to act in a manner contrary to God's Will. A perpetrator, unrepentant, he/she/they would be given the opportunity to accept forgiveness and repent.(Isaiah 11:6-9). They will not be allowed to live in this new world if they continue to act on their sinful tendencies(Psalms 37:10)

Since this conversation is whether or not God will forgive our perpetrator's in, as I assume, the present and the future, I have attempted to address both. The short answer is all sins are forgiven men in the present, and there will be a time when God will rule completely, not allowing "any harm" to come to anyone, they will be "removed". This means that in the future, any wicked action will be preemptively cut off before it harms anyone.

I hope this has cleared up some of these issues. This material is taken directly from the Bible, so please check into your sources to make sure of this information. Thank you for bringing this up, as research strengthens my faith as well,
Sam

_________________________
MaleSurvivor Moderator Emeritus 2012 - 2014

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#381251 - 01/02/12 01:31 AM Re: Does God offer forgiveness to even our perps? [Re: SamV]
ALIVE 3n1 Offline


Registered: 12/24/11
Posts: 76
Loc: Throne Room of God
God Saves Sinners

God- the Triune Jehovah, Father, Son and Spirit; three Persons working together in sovereign wisdom, power and love to achieve the salvation of a chosen people, the Father electing, the Son fulfilling the Father's will by redeeming, the Spirit executing the purpose of Father and Son by renewing.

Saves- does everything, first to last, that is involved in bringing man from death in sin to life in glory: plans, achieves and communicates redemption, calls and keeps, justifies, sanctifies, glorifies.

Sinners- men as God finds them, guilty, vile, helpless, powerless, unable to lift a finger to do God's will or better their spiritual lot.

God saves sinners- and the force of this confession may not be weakened by disrupting the unity of the work of the Trinity, or by dividing the achievement of salvation between God and man and making the decisive part man's own, or by soft-pedalling the sinner's inability so as to allow him to share the praise of his salvation with his Saviour.

To sum it all up: sinners do not save themselves in any sense at all, but that salvation, first and last, whole and entire, past, present and future, is of the Lord, to whom be glory for ever. J.I. Packer

I thought this would articulate the position of Orthodox Christianity. I thought about writing something out and then remembered reading this essay.

I had a problem with the wording of this thread. The offer of forgiveness puts the authority in man's actions. What God purposes, happens. If the perpetrator is drawn to Godly repentance, it will happen, period. No ifs, and, or buts about it. Now as a Christian I get the unenviable task of recognizing my sin in the same light as my perps. Not from my perspective, but from God's. Here is a couple of verses from Romans that puts the whole picture in perspective.

Romans 5

1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand ; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance ; 4 and perseverance, proven character ; and proven character, hope ; 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. 6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man ; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.


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#381807 - 01/08/12 02:46 PM Re: Does God offer forgiveness to even our perps? [Re: ALIVE 3n1]
Tyler845 Offline


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 276
Loc: U.S.A.
I hope my perps can find peace and happiness.

I saw this thread yesterday, and have given it alot of thought. I do believe god offers forgiveness to them, same as me. Have I not hurt people emotionally with my confusion before I came to understand my difficulties ? Yes. I feel confusion and sexual perversion in the way of lust is the root cause for every encounter of abuse I endured. In that vein, inhabiting a broken creation, in this stage of my recovery, I find hope in the fact that the perps in my past can be brought to the same salvation, love, and understanding as I have. I ofcourse understand anger, hatred, or any other pain-induced view of another's perp. I in no way feel that if I had'nt been given understanding and insight from my friends here with recovery, could I genuinely feel this way toward my perps. I know many don't feel this way, and I in no way feel superior or further along than any of my brothers here. I wish my perps the best, as I expect the best for myself in the present, and future.



Edited by Tyler845 (01/08/12 02:48 PM)
_________________________
Most Often, The Child Inside Has Better Access To Execute The Flawless Potential Of Self.

Over-Ride Emotional Conflict With Rational Truths

You Are Freer Than You Think - Paul Berteaux

Come unto Me, all ye that Labor, and are Heavy-ladened. I will give you Rest -Jesus Christ

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#381837 - 01/09/12 12:05 AM Re: Does God offer forgiveness to even our perps? [Re: Tyler845]
ALIVE 3n1 Offline


Registered: 12/24/11
Posts: 76
Loc: Throne Room of God
Tyler,

I agree with you. I do hope and pray that my/all perps are drawn into a relationship with Jesus.

What I recognize is that regardless of the light that is shown into the burned out consciences of these people, they will still love the darkness.

The recognition of sinful behavior comes after the grace that has been given to the believer. Without grace there is no recognition of the truth. You also cannot ask for grace, otherwise it would not be grace. Even if one was to come back from the dead they still would not believe. Not all have been given the faith to believe. Faith is not of ourselves but a gift of God.

The idea that anybody can have a relationship with God on their own terms is heretical. There has to be the removal of their heart of stone being replaced with a living heart. Man cannot do the heart transplant on themselves or anybody else.

The key question you have to ask yourself is "What caused you to believe?"

Religion is Man making himself right with God.
Christianity is God making man right for himself.
Christianity is not a religion.


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#382016 - 01/10/12 02:40 PM Re: Does God offer forgiveness to even our perps? [Re: ALIVE 3n1]
Tyler845 Offline


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 276
Loc: U.S.A.
Love. Feeling of love, and having no other way to describe it, or put it into context.

_________________________
Most Often, The Child Inside Has Better Access To Execute The Flawless Potential Of Self.

Over-Ride Emotional Conflict With Rational Truths

You Are Freer Than You Think - Paul Berteaux

Come unto Me, all ye that Labor, and are Heavy-ladened. I will give you Rest -Jesus Christ

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#382055 - 01/11/12 12:32 AM Re: Does God offer forgiveness to even our perps? [Re: Tyler845]
ALIVE 3n1 Offline


Registered: 12/24/11
Posts: 76
Loc: Throne Room of God
Yes, that unbelievable love. Washing over you, healing you, holding you. This love has nothing to do with what we know or who we are or what we did. Each of us, that has been born again, remembers that exact moment that the chains came off.

We all start off saying "I chose Christ." But then the longer we walk with the Lord the more we realize that He chose us. Now we have to deal with WHY? Why me? Are you sure? Really, I am unworthy. I have alot of issues. HA,HA understatement of the year.

What about the guy standing next to me? He heard the exact same message. Why didn't he respond the same way I did? Didn't he feel the same waves of love? Why am I the only one with tears running down my face?

The reason is that YOU are special. Our Lord Jesus Christ was specifically thinking of you. We are not going to be holding hands with everybody in our churches singing Kumbaya. I seriously think we have a major problem with the lukewarm Christians in the North American churches. Really, when I stumble let me fall into the hands of the drunkard, swindler, adulteress. They know how to minister to the fallen better than the self-righteous prigs in the church. Now, I am not saying that every church is like that. We just know they are out there, and the wrath of God is coming to them.

What I am trying to say is that whenever you read the Bible and you see the word Israel, put Christian in its place. You have to be discerning when you do this. And you can also replace it with your name in alot of different passages.

When did God write your name in the Book of Life?
This is when we really have to expand our personal definition of what omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, really means.

Our finite minds have a hard time comprehending infinity. Let's expand our minds. It is really where the assurance of our salvation begins.


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