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#378822 - 12/09/11 12:18 PM Square 1.1
unhappycamper Offline


Registered: 10/21/11
Posts: 624
Loc: VA
Square 1.1 is Square 1 minus the optimism. Here's what I've learned in the past 17 years: I'll never have justice or even revenge. I'll never have acknowledgment or even corroboration. That much I knew at the start, but I've learned that I've got to have at least one of those things before I can get past the terrifying anger and other bad feelings. What to do? At this rate, I doubt I can live long enough to get to Square 1.2.

John


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#378827 - 12/09/11 01:14 PM Re: Square 1.1 [Re: unhappycamper]
Fissy Tsickens Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/23/08
Posts: 466
Loc: Bassett, Virginia
((((((John))))))

Hi, John. I'm at a low spot myself right now, seemingly making no progress, my wife very tired of the situation. I wish I had an answer or some great advice for you, but, unfortunately, I don't. Just want you to know that other guys here care about you and your situation, understand your anger and frustration, and are pulling for you. Hang in, there.

Peace,

John

_________________________
Wish that I could cry
Fall upon my knees
Find a way to lie
About a home Iíll never see

It may sound absurd...but donít be naive
Even heroes have the right to bleed
I may be disturbed...but wonít you concede
Even heroes have the right to dream
Itís not easy to be me

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#378831 - 12/09/11 01:50 PM Re: Square 1.1 [Re: Fissy Tsickens]
Castle Offline


Registered: 10/03/09
Posts: 734
Loc: NJ
What is justice to all this?

May I ask if being believed will help you, when an acknowledgment and/or corroborations is not available...I know something about this.

I hear and believe you, many others too.

_________________________

My posts can self destruct at any time..read them while you can.

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#378834 - 12/09/11 02:44 PM Re: Square 1.1 [Re: Castle]
unhappycamper Offline


Registered: 10/21/11
Posts: 624
Loc: VA
All I have is a story and some symptoms--I've never asked anyone to believe the story, and all these doctors and counselors can do is try to relieve the symptoms. I want some evidence that doesn't require belief.

At this point, "justice" would be knowing the perp paid some extremely high price for what he did to us kids.

John


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#378836 - 12/09/11 03:26 PM Re: Square 1.1 [Re: unhappycamper]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2590
Hey John,

I feel I can relate to your situation a little.

I won't get any of that either. All my perps were minors, so some people won't even let me call that abuse, and certainly there is no legal standing I can take.

I won't get anything more than what I have now. A story and and some symptoms.

It hurts. I find at times I envy those who can get justice and barring that those that have someone to sue the hell out of.

I don't have any of that.

Justice or Revenge if ever found, won't actually change anything in regards to the pain or symptoms.

We can work through our main, we can heal from the damage, even if nothing else can come about in regards to the perpetrator.

Easy? NO not in the least.

But still possible.


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#378837 - 12/09/11 03:53 PM Re: Square 1.1 [Re: JustScott]
cris40ky Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 188
Loc: KY, US
Justice or corroboration.

The priest perp, that came later, after confronted through channels actually admitted he abused me. Justice?? It didn't feel like it. I was actually more depressed after that because, as JustScott said, it does absolutely nothing to take away the pain. But there was something, I guess, just in having him admit it. Though, I was believed from the start.

What I am going through now, is much earlier abuse. As you know, you have commented with me before, about remembering. And the lack of it. And I'm with you on that one. It's hard to deal when there is no clear concept of a sequence of events. It's like it's not even true to me and the symptoms are just there. The lil kid in me that was abused does not want to hear any professional say "just focus on the symptoms" because he feels cheated. Disbelieved. Angry.

It sounds from your earlier sharing that you do have some clear images from your past. And I have two that have come up for me. One much later confirmed by my cousin is the most clear, but still hard for me to really accept. I want more. Lil me wants more recognition. And I'm the only one that can give it to him. It feels week that way. It feeds into the desire of others to minimize what happened. And feeds into my desire to avoid it as well. It has been really hard for me to see that in myself. That I am part of the voices that tell lil me it really didn't happen, get over it.

But the truth is flat out we have enough memory to know. Accepting isn't easy on more levels than one. And there is no real justice that can be inflicted on these people that could measure up.


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#378839 - 12/09/11 04:15 PM Re: Square 1.1 [Re: cris40ky]
unhappycamper Offline


Registered: 10/21/11
Posts: 624
Loc: VA
Originally Posted By: cris40ky
And there is no real justice that can be inflicted on these people that could measure up.


Oh, I dunno... I'd settle for hearing that he got shanked in prison. I'm not using the term "justice" in any cosmic sense.

And I agree, I've probably doubted my "story" more than anyone else who's heard it. Who would WANT such a thing in his life? But after 52 years, I'm afraid to take my eyes off it--distraction is the "coping strategy" that nearly killed me when it finally failed 17 years ago. Once it fails, it's gone for good.

John


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#378844 - 12/09/11 04:41 PM Re: Square 1.1 [Re: unhappycamper]
Sailor John Offline


Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 310
Loc: Newfoundland & Labrador
Hi unhappycamper,

I also have had all my known perps die, including my sperm provider. All I would have liked to hear from them is why they did it especially one to his own son. It ruined my life, like many, many others.

I've had vivid pictures ever since I realized (about 25 years ago) that I was abused. I've found that over a longggg time things will become a bit clearer - you get the feeling that "Hey, what's going on. That happened before / after this."

I still have trouble getting some things in order after and as I said, that's after about 24 years of self treatment and about 6 or 7 months of therapy.

Don't give up. Things will get better

_________________________
I will mourn the teenager I never was and strive to make that dot of light way out in the far reaches of the end of the tunnel turn into a bright sun.

WE ARE NOT VICTIMS. WE ARE THE SURVIVORS!!!

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#378865 - 12/09/11 08:38 PM Re: Square 1.1 [Re: Sailor John]
kb8715 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 808
First of all John from chat and through our private messages I know the very good man you are. For me Justice starts by seeing we never let the bastards get the best in us.

Second, there is some justice knowing the bastards rots in hell.

Third I think comes from watching men here heal. Even better is to help a man here heal. In my case I know I don't need all the support I did not too long ago. But I feel closure and a real sense of happiness even when I feel I helped another survivor find some peace. A few here are like family to me. They give so much in return. My wife asks how they are even. That's what helps me a lot.

You deserve it John. You're just a good man.

Keith

_________________________
"You can get far in life by pushing except through a door marked PULL...." Profile quote in my oldest son's senior year HS Yearbook.

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#425238 - 02/13/13 11:37 PM Re: Square 1.1 [Re: unhappycamper]
Jacob S Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 614
Loc: where the shadows lie
I know this is old and so I hope no one minds me bumping it but oh how it relates to me. What I wouldn't give for a little corroboration. So many people wouldn't even understand if I told them the details, because they don't understand how a kid just a little older can so completely dominate. And there goes my stomach . . .
_________________________


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#425239 - 02/14/13 12:00 AM Re: Square 1.1 [Re: unhappycamper]
traveler Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 3513
Loc: somewhere in Africa
Jacob S - i can't help with the corroboration part.

but i can tell you that i "understand how a kid just a little older can so completely dominate." that was me at one period of my life. the step-dad had already started on me and at the age of 10 or 11 my "best friend" undertook the self-appointed task of filling in my neglected s#x education. he did a very thorough job of it and eventually brought in numerous accomplices. but i was initially vulnerable to him - not because he was older or larger or stronger. heck - he wasn't even as far into puberty as i was. but i felt weak and dumb and inferior and insecure and worthless and needing friendship and information and acceptance. all those things he seemed to offer and promise. i was putty in his hands. this is the first time i've said this - that i "could" have resisted, refused, fought him off - if it had been only a physical contest. but there was a lot more involved in the balance of power than height and weight. it makes me feel like a totally ineffectual wimp, but i didn't have a chance...

lee


Edited by traveler (02/14/13 12:02 AM)
Edit Reason: sp
_________________________
As my life goes on I believe somehow something's changed
Something deep inside...
I've been searchin so long to find an answer
Now I know my life has meaning
Now I see myself as I am, feeling very free...
When my tears have come to an end I will understand
What I left behind: a part of me. Chicago


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#425240 - 02/14/13 12:37 AM Re: Square 1.1 [Re: traveler]
SoccerStar Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 918
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: traveler
i "understand how a kid just a little older can so completely dominate." that was me at one period of my life. the step-dad had already started on me and at the age of 10 or 11 my "best friend" undertook the self-appointed task of filling in my neglected s#x education. he did a very thorough job of it and eventually brought in numerous accomplices. but i was initially vulnerable to him - not because he was older or larger or stronger. heck - he wasn't even as far into puberty as i was. but i felt weak and dumb and inferior and insecure and worthless and needing friendship and information and acceptance. all those things he seemed to offer and promise.


I was never really sure if I was going to talk about this, even here, but.... well, yeah.

When I started 6th grade I was soon targeted for really stalker-ish bullying by a sicko trio wolfpack. I was helpless and it dawned on me after only a few months that they could completely ruin my life. Out of nothing less than desperation I "adopted" a slightly older boy who I barely knew but who lived 4 houses away from me - so we would always sit together on the bus, meaning he'd be my human shield so I couldn't get punched and spit-on. He was loud and tough and confident and he did keep me safe.

He ended up being more or less a good friend, for a number of years.

But there was a price. He insisted upon every instance of us hanging out at his house (which for a few years there was literally every single weekday afternoon) that there would be heavy contact sexualized behavior that went significantly beyond my comfort zone. There were never actual sex acts committed between the two of us, no genital contact of any kind, but I had to get used to his dick very quickly and get used to being expected to be constantly naked around him, as well as his.... something, I don't even know what it was, a fetish, at that age??... his WHATEVER insistence that we always be pressed together naked side-by-side while watching porn - like Siamese twins. Basically everything touching EXCEPT our dicks. Because that would have been gay, he'd say. Sometimes he'd arrange for us to sleep that way. One single time I refused to do that.... his response was so angry and ugly that I never refused again.

I got used to it. I was never truly happy about it, but I made a conscious choice to allow it to happen because I needed him to be my larger protector, and because his porn collection was... riveting, magnificent, hypnotic, at that point in my life my single greatest interest on Earth. Somewhere around 12ish-13ish I realized that I was just twiddling my thumbs waiting for him to demand real sexual favors from me, and, giving it as little conscious thought as I could, I decided that I'd give him anything he wanted that didn't involve physical pain. The whole reason I was DOING this was to AVOID physical pain - of getting the shit stomped out of me by the bullies he was protecting me from.

He was always in the driver's seat, anything sex-oriented that he wanted to do got done, and I knew - we surely BOTH knew - that he could have turned me out as his personal sex toy if he'd actually wanted to, if that hadn't been too "gay" for his tastes.

Looking back I don't really regret it and don't categorize it as "abuse." Some embarrassing memories, but the emotions I felt on the occasions when the bullies got me were much much stronger and worse and left far more significant emotional damage. Our arrangement was the lesser evil. But yeah... I sure as hell can attest to how a relatively young kid, less than a year ahead of you though more physically developed, can be unwithstandably sexually steering, demanding, and dominant. He basically made me his prison wife minus the wedding night.


Matt
_________________________
My story

"Don't think it hasn't been a little slice of Heaven just because it hasn't!" --Bugs Bunny

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#425260 - 02/14/13 08:00 AM Re: Square 1.1 [Re: unhappycamper]
Jude Offline


Registered: 08/09/12
Posts: 1600
Loc: New England
Justice is elusive for me. The only revenge I will have is getting myself well and healthy enough to live a reasonably satisfying life. I will not quit trying for that. I refuse to let him win.

Jude
_________________________
Seems I've got to have a change of scene
Every night I have the strangest dreams
Imprisoned by the way it could have been
Left here on my own or so it seems
I've got to leave before I start to scream
Joe Cocker

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#425265 - 02/14/13 09:43 AM Re: Square 1.1 [Re: unhappycamper]
Jacob S Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 614
Loc: where the shadows lie
Thank you guys. I still have in my head so many lies that say my experiences are invalid and I am just weird and weak for being so messed up. Reading that others know the pain and confusion of similar-age-abuse helps me pry those lies a little looser.
_________________________


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#425268 - 02/14/13 10:31 AM Re: Square 1.1 [Re: Jude]
Jacob S Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 614
Loc: where the shadows lie
been thinking about abuser #2.

been wondering about the why. And about who abused him. I'm pretty sure someone did, mostly because of the kind of language he used. Like someone had said the same things to him.

He wasn't much older than me. Found his facebook a while back.

Kid was a jerk. I didn't think of him as a kid or a jerk back then, but looking back he was. He had no others friends. I was his friend because thanks to my mom I already believed I had no value except to offer myself up to be whatever other people needed me to be, and because my mother specifically told me to be his friend while my mother was being his mother's friend. So they would go off and leave us at his grandparents house.

According to the sex offender database, just down the street from his grandparents house is where a man lives who was arrested for multiple counts of molestation 8 years after what happened to me. The newspaper real estate archives show that house has not been bought or sold since before I was born, so its possible he lived there and was the one who abused #2.

Its also possible it was his grandfather.

I don't know why it matters to me.
_________________________


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#425279 - 02/14/13 01:46 PM Re: Square 1.1 [Re: unhappycamper]
Farmer Boy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/23/12
Posts: 442
Loc: Australia
Jacob

I matters because we need to make sense of something that happened to us that doesn't make sense. Why would someone do that to you? It doesn't make sense - so we need to understand why they thought it was ok to do that to us. If there is a reason for their actions then it 'isn't OUR fault' .... it is someother child molesters fault .. who started the cycle.

You could be right about the man up the street or you could be wrong ... but it does sound like someone did something to him.

BTW - It was not your fault.

Lee

Also - my first abusers were boys under the age of 16 and one was only 2 years older than me. So I know how much they can mess you up. I had to understand - that is why I had to see my brother and ask him why.
_________________________
More than meets the eye!

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#425477 - 02/16/13 10:50 AM Re: Square 1.1 [Re: unhappycamper]
SmartShadow Offline


Registered: 11/27/12
Posts: 135
Loc: Washington State
So I would like to run this by you guys.

I was picked by a neighbor boy about a year older for exploration I think. I don't want to put it into the abuse category because I enjoyed the attention and the touch. Three times he got me alone, put his hands in my pants and fondel me. The second time he also had me fondel him. The third time he though I was asleep and tryed to penetrate me. I pretended to stir and he stoped. I think he was ashamed and was trying to not get caught. I must have been around 9. I told him later that morning that I new what he had done and you would have thought I killed his favorite dog or something.

Later the perp who realy mesed me up at 14 used this information he extracted from me agensed me.

I can't help to think that this kid had been molested, his step farther was likly the reason a 10 or 11 year old would have this much understanding of sex.

I wonder if I have this right in thinking this was not abuse.
I never felt used. Manipulated yes, but I wanted the atention and the touch. It felt good to be chosen. I did not encoded it as unwanted at the time.

Any thoughts would be welcomed.

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#425479 - 02/16/13 11:09 AM Re: Square 1.1 [Re: unhappycamper]
SoccerStar Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 918
Loc: New York
SmartShadow:

Abuse has to be unwanted at the time and/or damaging and regretted afterwards. It is unavoidable, and (as I think Chase Eric aptly put it) there is a winner and a loser.

Experimentation - homoerotic horseplay - among boys of similar age is perfectly normal, sometimes even beneficial if it brings friends closer together. You don't seem too disturbed by mutual manual contact, and I think all in all you shouldn't be.

Pouncing you in your sleep and attempting sodomy, is a whole nother animal. That was abuse or at least attempted abuse, and it does raise questions of how the boy would have known how to do such a thing.

So - he attempted to transition "good" experimentation into "bad" abuse, and you escaped, fortunately.
_________________________
My story

"Don't think it hasn't been a little slice of Heaven just because it hasn't!" --Bugs Bunny

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#425490 - 02/16/13 02:22 PM Re: Square 1.1 [Re: unhappycamper]
SmartShadow Offline


Registered: 11/27/12
Posts: 135
Loc: Washington State
I think that all makes sense. I supose because he was ashamed of what he was trying to do the third time and because I had grouped it all into one thing that I did not see the pieces individually. But that makes sence how you broke it down. Thanks




Edited by SmartShadow (02/16/13 06:54 PM)

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#425519 - 02/17/13 01:58 AM Re: Square 1.1 [Re: SmartShadow]
traveler Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 3513
Loc: somewhere in Africa
Originally Posted By: SmartShadow
I wonder if I have this right in thinking this was not abuse.
I never felt used. Manipulated yes, but I wanted the atention and the touch. It felt good to be chosen. I did not encoded it as unwanted at the time.


first - i would question whether your perceptions at the time were objective and accurate relections of what really was happening. how many of us as children - or even teens - are capable of making those judgements? there is a reason that young kids are usually not charged or tried or sentenced the same way as adults. and how much are our feelings and ideas at any age - especially when very young - influenced by others? - that "this is OK" or "fun" or "no big deal" or "what all guys do" or "you really like it."

second - and this may be a radical suggestion - i've certainly never seen or heard it anywhere else - but i think abuse can be retroactive. let me explain: some of the things that were done to me - verbal, physical and sekual abuse - may not have been too terribly severe if taken in isolation as unique, one-off events. i really think that it was the cumulative effect of all of it that made it so bad. and each subsequent episode magnified, amplified and aggravated the effects of all the preceeding events so that the total effect was greater than the sum of the parts. so even some things that may have been borderline in severity - became worse in retrospect because of what came after. the memory of the questionable events suddenly took on more connotations and implications in the larger context. i don't know if that makes sense to anyone else - but it seems true to me.

Lee
_________________________
As my life goes on I believe somehow something's changed
Something deep inside...
I've been searchin so long to find an answer
Now I know my life has meaning
Now I see myself as I am, feeling very free...
When my tears have come to an end I will understand
What I left behind: a part of me. Chicago


Top
#425520 - 02/17/13 02:53 AM Re: Square 1.1 [Re: unhappycamper]
Lancer Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 901
Loc: Florida
I think, John, you're describing the feeling of the majority of us on MS. As many of us as there are, there are as many senses of justice and corroboration. For me it's been a lot of research and moving forward where I could.

My perp was fired from his job as head of the Guidance Dept. a year or two after my abuse for "sexual issues". Whether I was one of those issues I never found out. However, he apparently lost his marriage, moved out of state and died there.

In the course of research I found at least a couple people who knew of the issues. And that's tbe best I've done with corroboratation. If any indication, the church sponsoring the camp where he'd been director (and where my abuse continued) immediately retained a bad-ass firm when I hired my own atty.

And that's all I can do right now on those fronts. Until something else comes up the best I can do is deal with the aftereffects thru therapy.

It sucks. It's not what I wanted. But it's outta my hands otherwise. The only other thing I'd add is that, in every respect, this is Serenity Prayer material...and, no, I'm not at all religious.

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