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#378142 - 12/04/11 04:15 PM When is enough enough?
Esposa Offline
F&F Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 678
Loc: NJ
Is it time for me to go?

My husband was sweet and loving, doting and connected. And then he started having an affair and became mean and disconnected (not only from me, but from his kids). He says the affair ended 7 months ago but he remains mean. I perceive that he lacks commitment to the trust building process and that he is not open or completely honest. In fact, I catch him lying about stupid insignificant things. He evades, denies or RAGES. He is never tender, never really apologetic. (He revealed his CSA 4 months after I found out about the affair)

So... here's my question for survivors....

Could his CSA create these behaviors in him? Could the CSA explain some of them? Without the CSA disclosure, I would be done for sure because I feel like he just doesn't love me. But when I ask him if he loves me, he is like "More than you know." All the therapists say he loves me deeply. But he can't show remorse, affection, honesty, VULNERABILITY. ??

If these are csa issues, then I feel like we have something to work on together. But if they are not, then what am I doing???


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#378147 - 12/04/11 05:06 PM Re: When is enough enough? [Re: Esposa]
wgrrcb Offline


Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 32


Edited by wgrrcb (02/20/13 03:36 PM)

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#378151 - 12/04/11 05:38 PM Re: When is enough enough? [Re: wgrrcb]
Esposa Offline
F&F Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 678
Loc: NJ
Originally Posted By: wgrrcb
The actions toward you are the same no matter what the reasons are.


Thank you for saying this. I guess I was having trouble seeing it this way - for what it is.


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#378153 - 12/04/11 05:49 PM Re: When is enough enough? [Re: Esposa]
George E. Offline


Registered: 11/12/11
Posts: 48
Loc: Kent, Washington
There is no excuse for adultery, verbal, physical, mental or sexual abuse. No matter what hell you have gone through in your life, it doesn't excuse or explains or justify having an affair.
A person has to own and be responsible for their reactions to negative stimulae. There is always a choice to do what is right, or to act up.
That is why it is so important to get professional help, to be able to navigate those dark waters and stir the vessel in the right direction.A person doesn't get well cold turkey.
As for the spouse, there has to be a line that if crossed, life altering disitions need to be made. No one has to suffer abuse of any kind, we all deserve to be treated with dignity and respect.
These are my personal opinions, that I have drawn from my own experience.


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#378154 - 12/04/11 06:00 PM Re: When is enough enough? [Re: George E.]
Esposa Offline
F&F Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 678
Loc: NJ
But George - what about the weird emotional stuff? Can his fear of my anger create a situation in which he simply cannot relate?


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#378161 - 12/04/11 06:19 PM Re: When is enough enough? [Re: Esposa]
George E. Offline


Registered: 11/12/11
Posts: 48
Loc: Kent, Washington
The thing is: Is that reason enough to abuse or cheat? What I am saying is that your husband needs to "man up" to his behavior and reactions, and recognize them for what they are, and seek professional help. Otherwise it will be just going on around in circles.


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#378165 - 12/04/11 06:32 PM Re: When is enough enough? [Re: George E.]
Esposa Offline
F&F Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 678
Loc: NJ
There is no manning up - I just wonder if it because he does not care - or because he is afraid.


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#378166 - 12/04/11 06:45 PM Re: When is enough enough? [Re: Esposa]
George E. Offline


Registered: 11/12/11
Posts: 48
Loc: Kent, Washington
When you try to rationalize this kind of stuff, you are enabling a conduct that is wrong by any accepted rule of behavior.
your husband needs to take stock of his actions, realize that his behavior is destructive, and seek professional help.


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#378174 - 12/04/11 07:44 PM Re: When is enough enough? [Re: George E.]
Gretta Offline


Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 239
Amen George! As supporters we want to give the benefit of the doubt especially since we love our husbands so much. Often to our determent. We have been co dependents for a long time it's hard to change but we need to.


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#378175 - 12/04/11 07:50 PM Re: When is enough enough? [Re: Gretta]
Esposa Offline
F&F Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 678
Loc: NJ
I second the Amen!

No more rationalizing... no more excuses.


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#378177 - 12/04/11 07:56 PM Re: When is enough enough? [Re: Esposa]
Staying Sane Offline


Registered: 11/29/11
Posts: 28
Loc: Iowa
http://www.oprah.com/relationships/Sexually-Abused-Men-Is-Your-Husband-One-of-Them/1

Neat article I read today. Talks a lot about spouses and how they have coped in some circumstances.

It's hard to say that childhood trauma is an excuse for the worst acting out when it isn't met with a desire to change and do better in the future.

_________________________
My Story

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#378249 - 12/05/11 10:19 AM Re: When is enough enough? [Re: Staying Sane]
Airmid Offline


Registered: 12/02/11
Posts: 95
Loc: South
Originally Posted By: Staying Sane
It's hard to say that childhood trauma is an excuse for the worst acting out when it isn't met with a desire to change and do better in the future.


Absolutely. I think that applies to us supporters, as well. As angry as I am about past actions, I have to acknowledge and appreciate any and all efforts toward healing (whether with a T/support group or not) that Hubs takes. None of us do anything perfectly, but I know that when I dwell on the anger, pain and betrayal, I end up sitting in it. A little gratitude goes a long way. It doesn't fix things, it doesn't mean both Hubs and I can act all willy-nilly and just be mean to each other. It does mean that I have a part to play in the relationship and might be selling myself short if I choose to not look at it.

Each person's breaking point, each person's deal breakers are all her own. What you might be willing to accept and work through is probably a lot different from what another spouse is willing to handle, and that's ok, provided that you aren't in danger. Boundaries are a beast to reset, and there's almost always friction when one of us makes changes and (quite reasonably) expects accountability where there used to be none.

That's been my experience, any way. HTH some.


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#378386 - 12/06/11 02:33 AM Re: When is enough enough? [Re: Airmid]
Pie Offline


Registered: 05/27/11
Posts: 61
Hi

I haven't posted in a long time, and that's because we have been doing really great. He has not acted out in about 2 months. Although I say this I still feel so alone and empty and have been continplating if this is now my breaking point??

We are all entightled to a life of happiness and love. Everyone deserves appreciation and respect, these are the things that I have found are lacking in survivor relationships, especially prior to disclosure. Once we are in a healing program I have found that its very slow and we can only deal with issues as they apear. Here is a strange analagy but anyhow, its like receiving your dinner, one mouthfull at a time, even if you don't want peas you have no idea what is coming next so you eat it and deal with the bad taste, you are also always in hope that the next item on your plate is something decadent, sweet and comforting, usually its not! Rather a mouthfull of black pudding!

As supporters we don't know what's coming, yet we wait for something great. WHY! Because we believe that our loved ones are more than what they believe they are. I have learnt that my lifes purpose is not to right all the wrongs in his life or to turn myself and my children into secondry victims of his abuse. Our end may come, I have no garantees of the future.

So for today I am going to find myself the largest apple pie I can cover it in cream and eat it all as a symbol of hope that the lonliness will ease.

May you all be filled with an amazing strength and peace.
Pie


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#378401 - 12/06/11 07:51 AM Re: When is enough enough? [Re: Pie]
Dar Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/15/11
Posts: 170
Loc: Missouri
I hope all of you supporters can enjoy a piece of apple pie today.
thanks for keeping our minds open and helping us to keep our directions straight.
God Bless

_________________________
All I ever wanted was a hug.

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#378649 - 12/08/11 02:02 AM Re: When is enough enough? [Re: Dar]
Disappointed Offline


Registered: 08/11/09
Posts: 540
Loc: U.S.A.
Dear Esposa,

I respectfully disagree with the following statement by Pie:

"We are all entitled to a life of happiness and love."

You state in your posting you and your husband have children. You stated he is mean with the children, but didn't explain how that manifests with the children.

The critical role of a family is the protection of children. The adults had choices and they made them. The children are, as we all know here, 100% vulnerable and dependent upon their parents. There are men here who have commented, and I think of Avery46 I believe, who commented that he missed his father when his father was gone, and his mother would criticize his father.

I myself, loved my Dad very much and we were very close. I cannot imagine what kind of life I would have had without my Dad, or if my parents had divorced and my Mom had picked up a pattern of saying negative things about him.

Further, sometimes stepparents become abusers, and the biological parent claims later, they never knew. I've always found this hard to believe, but they say it. Okay, let's say it's true. It just re-emphasizes how utterly vulnerable the children are.

As long as he is meeting his obligations as a father, I believe the children deserve his presence.

The ACTUAL question is: Whose happiness and love is more important? The children's happiness, or one parent's?

Being raised by one's own mother and father is priceless. I would think having well-adjusted children would be priceless as well.

D.

_________________________
Female.

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#378663 - 12/08/11 07:39 AM Re: When is enough enough? [Re: Disappointed]
George Offline
Member

Registered: 01/29/01
Posts: 120
Loc: NY metro
Disappointed, I couldn't agree more.

Esposa, Yes csa is most likely the root of his actions.

I was a cold, mean prick before I started dealing with all this csa baggage, I had more issues than most women would want to put up with. I don't know what my wife saw in me that she held on for so long? We both are glad that she did. We both can't imagine where we be today without each other. Not knowing all the background, I hope your husband is attempting to deal with his csa issues and not still in denial.


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#378832 - 12/09/11 01:54 PM Re: When is enough enough? [Re: George]
Esposa Offline
F&F Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 678
Loc: NJ
George: I see it more and more. The neglect and abuse of course impacts how he makes decisions, how he responds to stress, how he interprets his world and the actions of those in it. Our therapist believes he has a type of attachment disorder.

And disappointed: I agree with you completely. That's probably the main reason I took him back after I found out about the affair - we have beautiful babies to raise. I would sacrifice ALOT for them. But I also think they need to see love, trust and respect every day of their lives. Which is why I chose to work on my marriage, stay invested and give love regardless.


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#378902 - 12/10/11 09:40 AM Re: When is enough enough? [Re: Esposa]
Disappointed Offline


Registered: 08/11/09
Posts: 540
Loc: U.S.A.
Dear Esposa,

It's admirable you're willing to make sacrifices for your children. But to say they need to see love, trust and respect every day of their lives, seems to mean nothing but perfection will do. Perfection isn't an option for anyone.

And frankly, my Dad had affairs, but as a child, I only accidently found out about 1. But my Mom stayed. They had 4 kids to raise. And they did.

D.

_________________________
Female.

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#378923 - 12/10/11 03:59 PM Re: When is enough enough? [Re: Disappointed]
GoodHope Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 413
Love, trust and respect are not the standard of perfection. They are a baseline at best. Children learn how they are supposed to treat others, and how they are to be treated by what they see at home. I would never want my girls to grow up thinking that it is OK to see me behaving poorly toward anyone else, especially a life partner. There are a host of behaviors that I would find unacceptable for my children to see in their own home, and most importantly to repeat with their future loved ones. I think it is smart to take that into account when deciding should I stay or go. Even men who hit their wives, but never their children are teaching their kids a lesson about how to treat people. It's a very individual choice, and my husband is not abusive by any stretch so I can't say for sure what I would and wouldn't do, but I do know that it is very important to me that my children grow up seeing love, respect, and trust modeled in the home where they receive most of their influence.

_________________________
Wife of a survivor

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#378983 - 12/11/11 04:09 AM Re: When is enough enough? [Re: GoodHope]
Anniemy4sons Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/29/11
Posts: 98
Loc: NJ
Children model what they see not what you say.

Trust me on this, we are battling this today. My husband is trying to undo the damage he has caused by modeling untrustworthy, disrespectful, and deceitful behavior. HE can't understand why they won't LISTEN to him.
I told him, he has to tell them, then show them. Otherwise, he is just some hypocrite.

He is a changed person. They need time to re-adjust to this new Dad. He is no longer the anger prick he used to be. Yelling, set off by the slightest wrong doing, overreacting to situations that did not require it. Inconsistent discipline. etc.
We only have 1 son still living at home. The other boys (men) 26, 21 and 19 are on their own OR in college. He mentioned something about parenting them differently, I told him "IT'S TOO LATE" THEY ARE GONE. He is mourning the loss and concentrating his efforts on our 16 yo and 4 yo but I see some habits are hard to break. He's trying. He's trying.

In the past my husband behaved more as a peer than a father. He kept their secrets from me. (Bad behavior regarding; drinking, pot, poor grades, trouble in school and with the law, teen sex). hmm, almost like a teenager himself.

He taught my children its okay and when he finally "heard" me, stopped contradicting me behind my back. Changed his tune. They looked at him like he had 2 heads.

WARNING:
Do not think for a minute you are fooling your children. They see everything! They may not say anything but the message is clear.

He is not the only one fighting for their respect again. He robbed me of respect of my children. Since he was the one who taught them this behavior, he has to unteach it. I have to SHOW them, these are my boundaries and YOU can't cross them either.

Parents, think before you act, you can't un-ring a bell. And that cow runs fast as hell once it gets out of the barn.

_________________________
God is my teacher, Jesus my comfort and the Holy Spirit my protector.
I AM Listening...

Thank you Mother Mary.
Pray the Rosary every day. http://www.comepraytherosary.org/

I BELIEVE IN HER PROMISE.

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#378986 - 12/11/11 06:36 AM Re: When is enough enough? [Re: Anniemy4sons]
kb8715 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 808
CSA can break us, but it does not make us. In marriage and parenting it takes 2 good role models, not one.

My mom was a lousy wife and worse mother.

I married the most sweetest most caring woman on the planet. I never did any of the crap to her or our kids you guys write about. More so I'm there to catch her tears all the time too. We aint special. We just get love and family I suppose. We both do.

I know some men who never were abused as kids who are real Tools as husbands and Dads.

I know some women who are lousy wives and shitty moms.

What is right or wrong in any home is not going to stem from CSA or the lack there of.

There are no excuses for being a shitty husband or Dad. None for being a marginal mother or wife either.

I wish every woman here all the happiness there can be.

I wish every man here has a wife just like mine.

Happy Holidays all. Here in NJ we are waiting for the older 2 to get back from campus. As my wife told them yesterday, don't buy him a thing, you know all he wants is you guys home here safe and happy.

Ya see, she truly gets me.....

Peace.

_________________________
"You can get far in life by pushing except through a door marked PULL...." Profile quote in my oldest son's senior year HS Yearbook.

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#378997 - 12/11/11 10:11 AM Re: When is enough enough? [Re: kb8715]
Esposa Offline
F&F Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 678
Loc: NJ
The thing is, his behavior is not from his CSA. As I am coming to understand, his behavior and his CSA come from one thing - and that is the lack of protection and attachment that he should have received from his mother.

I have been looking at it all wrong.

What causes the bad behavior is the way he sees his world. ANd the lack of coping mechanisms. ALL OF THIS COMES FROM THE FAILURE OF HIS MOTHER TO BE EVEN A MARGINALLY GOOD MOTHER. He did not receive love, he did not receive protection, he did not learn healthy attachment, he did not learn emotional regulation.

This is what I am finding as we trudge along....


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#379250 - 12/13/11 11:03 AM Re: When is enough enough? [Re: Esposa]
Airmid Offline


Registered: 12/02/11
Posts: 95
Loc: South
I'm at a point where I refuse to speak to my MIL, other than "hello". I see how sick she still is, and I'm having trouble finding an ounce of empathy for her due to her own ongoing "rescue me" and entitlement-driven behaviors.

I so totally relate.


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#379255 - 12/13/11 11:16 AM Re: When is enough enough? [Re: kb8715]
Gretta Offline


Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 239
Love what you wrote. Thanks it made me smile.


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#379258 - 12/13/11 11:23 AM Re: When is enough enough? [Re: kb8715]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6376
Loc: 2.5 NATO Nations
I apologize for the side-step in subject here. I had only read KB's post and responded by knee-jerk.


KB,

then telling you this is redundant: You have EVERYTHING!

I remember going out for walks in my neighborhood after work or dinner. Sometimes one of the kids would come with me. We were famous in the neighborhood for our walks.

I would nearly always stop out on the street and marvel at what the box held; my everything...and thank God for them all. I would cry in gratitude. I'm guessing you do too KB.

KB, your valuation of family has always shone-through here in this pot of pain and misery. You kept your grasp on the lightning...on your everything. You define light.



Edited by Robbie Brown (12/13/11 11:55 AM)
_________________________
Jesus Loves The Hell Outta Me!

Still's Globs

New Video

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#379310 - 12/13/11 04:49 PM Re: When is enough enough? [Re: Still]
kb8715 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 808
Robbie Iyou know I wish it all for you too though. For anyone here, spouses, partners, kids of survivors of course too.

Hug your kids tight as I know you do Rob. They love their dad. He's a real good man and they know it bud.

_________________________
"You can get far in life by pushing except through a door marked PULL...." Profile quote in my oldest son's senior year HS Yearbook.

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#379871 - 12/17/11 05:57 PM Re: When is enough enough? [Re: kb8715]
mmfan Offline


Registered: 09/25/11
Posts: 114
Esposa, I can relate to what you said about attachment! I think that very 1st experience with the primary attachment figure (mother) is at the root of so many of my guy's problems. He is also a survivor of severe CSA, physical and psychological torture, sibling abuse and many other things, but, the mother attachment issue always seems to be the most fundamental.


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