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#377925 - 12/03/11 10:58 AM I don't want a divorce--she does
fhorns Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/10/02
Posts: 613
I thought about posting this in F&F, but......it seemed apparent I'd be doing with them exactly what I do with my wife. It comes out both verbally and nonverbally like "I'm scared of this and that......would you protect me, guide me, show me the SAFEST route?"

My short history: No father, abused by male sib, sought Mom's attention but she's a dusk to dawn alcoholic, and old traumas of toddler age have surfaced too. That's my short story.

I'm feeling ashamed of writing this. I've carried the lie that men didn't have needs, so posting this borders on feeling incompetent, powerless, unmasculine, and.....possibly fruitless.

I'm writing this because.......I've been out of my own home since July. I'd done DIY self-help techniques to handle emotional pain, but I haven't touched the root. I had hoped finding the root would help me........but I didn't find it. I sincerely hoped I'D GET BETTER SO SHE WOULD WANT ME.


Then she got in recovery. I've been in in my whole marriage and many years before, but she suddenly discovered she was MAD!!! So.........................

In all her sound thinking, she said she wanted a divorce after the new year. I DON'T WANT THIS.

She can't fix me, but leaving will bring on more pain than she has imagination for. For me, for our 7 year old daughter, for her.

Her history: alcoholic dad who was divorced by her mom, very codependent mom who married another man she blatantly DISRESPECTS
. She moved in with a guy in her teens who sexually abused her up until she left.

I feel powerless. I used to read all the marriage books. Not her. Relationship books abound in my house. She just separated, with my passive permission, and now she wants out.

This hurts. It also hurts bad enough I'm not sure I'll return to post about this again. (I OFTEN DO THAT........anyone else do that?) I do receive replies in my email since it's a Watched Topic, I read them and think about them.


Alfred


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#377930 - 12/03/11 11:15 AM Re: I don't want a divorce--she does [Re: fhorns]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2572
Sounds like she's following her own cycle of abusive history... when things get tough... run.... Just my two cents on her side of things, but obviously I don't know the whole story.

The possibility for you two to have an amazing level of understanding and support seems huge to me, but of course it isn't easy.

I'm sorry she wants out. It takes two who want to make it work unfortunately. I have several other fellows I talk to who are in similar places right now, they want to do everything they can to save the marriage, but their wives are running away as fast as they can.

Men do have needs, so no shame on reaching out. Those old myths and lies are what keep most men in America isolated and alone. I don't believe it was ever meant to be that way.

Keep doing your best to talk to her and communicate with her and try your best to listen to what she's REALLY saying. My experience has taught me that what my wife is usually yelling about isn't really what she is upset about.


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#377938 - 12/03/11 11:29 AM Re: I don't want a divorce--she does [Re: JustScott]
fhorns Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/10/02
Posts: 613
I'm not even sure what to do. Avoiding her means avoiding a memory of abandonment. And she emotionally checks out when I'm around....I do too though. My walls go high.

I'm back since I got Scott's post through email. My wife invited me this morning, after dropping by to see what furniture I wanted from the house (?????????). She told me "if I wanted, they were decorating the outside of the house". First internal response--GO AWAY!!!.

I'm trying to figure something out. The last time I was over for inside decorating, about a month ago, I was completely ignored by her. It felt like ice picks. But...she's "forgiven me". Keep that blatant lie---talk to me when you know what you're saying. But......she wants me back over..????????? Doesn't make sense. CONFUSING!!!


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#377944 - 12/03/11 12:10 PM Re: I don't want a divorce--she does [Re: fhorns]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2572
she's confused too, if this is really the first time she's dealing with her stuff.

If you can, pursue her, in the sense of, make the hard choice to be around her. Show her through action that you don't want a divorce. You guys being apart since July has probably triggered some feelings of abandonment too.

The danger when we're hurt is to take all that pain out on those we're closest to. So be conscious of triggers and what not, even though she may not be able to see it herself yet.

I gotta jet, got fighting kids to take care of! I'll check in later!


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#377945 - 12/03/11 12:12 PM Re: I don't want a divorce--she does [Re: fhorns]
fhorns Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/10/02
Posts: 613
I texted her. I said,

"I'm completely confused. Last month you invited me over, but it was stone cold quiet when I was around. Why do you want me over now?"

She replied a short, "more for (our daughter)"

I sat to process my reactions. I don't normally shoot off the first thing I'm feeling. I wrote back,

"I'd want to see you though. Being blatantly ignored by you is very triggering to me. I'll try and avoid those experiences."

She wrote back simply, "Understood"

"Winning", or my definition of it, is actually losing here. I want understanding, clear boundaries, and respect. I so need the respect part--the ignoring me screamed disrespect in front of my daughter---NOT a good lesson.

She needs love though. I've got Emerson Eggerichs' book "Love and Respect", and it shows stuff I feel absolutely clueless about---loving a woman. I just feel like a failure around her though. Before being booted from the house, I held so some belief she'd love or respect me someday. What do I do?


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#377946 - 12/03/11 12:18 PM Re: I don't want a divorce--she does [Re: fhorns]
fhorns Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/10/02
Posts: 613
(I wish I were perfect. I wish I were perfect) going through my head. Scott's advice is sound. I texted her asking if I may still come over. She said yes.

Yes, this feels painful. Going now.


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#377947 - 12/03/11 12:27 PM Re: I don't want a divorce--she does [Re: fhorns]
Avery46 Offline


Registered: 09/23/10
Posts: 1243
Loc: USA
Alfred,

I feel for you. This reminds me of the stuff I went through years ago. Lots of genuine good feelings sent your way.

Remember at every turn "your a good person". This is going to be difficult knowing our histories. I have had a hard time with it. When feeling the abandonment, or the insecurities, or any of the confusion - take several deep breaths and tell yourself your a good person before you "speak". This may be hard to do but, do NOT take her inventory. Tell her good things.

The little boy in you will need the respect that only you can give him.

I am here for you. Take it easy on yourself.



Edited by Avery46 (12/03/11 12:39 PM)
_________________________
aka DJsport

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#377959 - 12/03/11 01:43 PM Re: I don't want a divorce--she does [Re: fhorns]
nltsaved Offline


Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 838
Loc: Kc,Mo
permission to speak freely , i no that this is not the spirituality forum but it have some stuff on my heart. I would just message you privately but i also feel someone could benefit from this also. your call man i will message you privately if you also to keep it private .

_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-uYCAfpxrY
TRIGGER WARNING
Video of me telling my story
you are not alone never were
WRITTEN FORM
http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=339159#Post339159
Why i hate Religion but love Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY

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#377960 - 12/03/11 02:28 PM Re: I don't want a divorce--she does [Re: nltsaved]
fhorns Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/10/02
Posts: 613
PM me nlt

Alfred


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#377964 - 12/03/11 03:41 PM Re: I don't want a divorce--she does [Re: fhorns]
fhorns Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/10/02
Posts: 613
Ok, I went. No drama really. I was a little tense originally, but I paid attention to both my internal reactions, and what she was "saying" (thank you Scott). Two things very much worth noting happened.

The first: I had an old feeling show up about 20 minutes in, an old childlike fear of abandonment, and it's roots go way back to my early childhood. This is a very core issue in my life, I remember the incident clearly, and I've sought out T to address this specifically. I haven't healed that one yet, and it soooooooooo affects us/me when I'm around her. In other words, I feel and act very young when in touch with these feelings if any door is opened to that part of me. (BTW, I posted right here about a year of so ago when I felt like I was six. I'd been doing EFT and felt safe to open up to her). But neither of us were in a place today for that kind of talk. We just put up Christmas decorations.

Secondly, I dared saying....I wanted to meet with her regularly, with someone (unknown T so far), to talk about us. She reacted "what are your expectations? (a common response from her). I said "I'm not sure. I know I have some very unrealistic expectations of you, it's not fair, but I want that to be out on the table". She said "Ok". Nothing more. But I shared what I wanted. We've talked about our daughter, monies owed for bills since she's done bills our whole marriage, but nothing more relationally. Absolutely nothing right now. I know she's vulnerable, and I told her about a month ago I had no deadlines for her. I don't.

Now..............God help me. What is my next step?

Prayer first. Then asking T's and counselors I know. Hmmmmm. Those are my thoughts.

Am I missing something?

Alfred


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#377968 - 12/03/11 03:53 PM Re: I don't want a divorce--she does [Re: fhorns]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6815
Loc: USA
Remember the movie The Gladiator ( think that's the right movie)? the opposing forces were lined up against each other. Each man behind a shield and with a sword and spear.

Ok with that mental image, imagine a husband and wife lined up in that kind of gear, sword and shield and spear, and ready to communicate (!) OK now hug while holding your shield and spear and sword. hug (?!! eek ).

Puffer


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#378127 - 12/04/11 02:36 PM Re: I don't want a divorce--she does [Re: fhorns]
Avery46 Offline


Registered: 09/23/10
Posts: 1243
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: fhorns
...Am I missing something?

Alfred


Alfred,

You can always come here. What your going through is tough...you can do this.

Avery

_________________________
aka DJsport

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#378203 - 12/04/11 11:24 PM Re: I don't want a divorce--she does [Re: Avery46]
fhorns Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/10/02
Posts: 613
Thank you Avery. I will.

Puffer, I didn't get what you probably meant. I haven't hugged my wife in almost six months, so the message wasn't caught. Sorry. I'm skeptical about her actual openness, but I'll move forward anyway.

Alfred


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#378209 - 12/05/11 12:01 AM Re: I don't want a divorce--she does [Re: pufferfish]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6815
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: pufferfish
Remember the movie The Gladiator ( think that's the right movie)? the opposing forces were lined up against each other. Each man behind a shield and with a sword and spear.

Ok with that mental image, imagine a husband and wife lined up in that kind of gear, sword and shield and spear, and ready to communicate (!) OK now hug while holding your shield and spear and sword. hug (?!! eek ).

Puffer

Sorry It wasn't clear.

I meant, how can you talk to someone or hug someone if they're holding a shield and a spear. If you're both wearing a shield it can't be a very intimate hug I guess. But holding a shield and spear means that the persons are enemies. It means that they have animosity toward each other. Hence they can't be loving.

Puffer





Edited by pufferfish (12/05/11 12:21 AM)

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#378217 - 12/05/11 12:29 AM Re: I don't want a divorce--she does [Re: pufferfish]
fhorns Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/10/02
Posts: 613
That made perfect sense Puffer.

I'm seeing my own walls up so high (aka shield), so it comes across as BACK OFF. I try to keep my walls/shield down......but it doesn't last long.

I'm going to say something strange now. My whole marriage my wife has hidden her first impulses...reactions...so she could play the good wife. I'm actually RELIEVED at her honesty. It's seen when I'm neutral, or set back, like now. I am grateful she's at least being honest. I LOVE complimenting people for their emotional honesty. (could I.....do it to her? not sure how to ask for help....though I have possible ideas....) Thanks for stirring my thinking Puffer.

Alfred


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#378550 - 12/07/11 09:19 AM Re: I don't want a divorce--she does [Re: fhorns]
creyes99 Offline


Registered: 11/14/11
Posts: 66
Loc: Indio, CA
Alfred, I know what you are going through because I'm going through the same thing myself, except I'm still in the house. All I kow is that we have to keep listening, really listening, to what she is saying. I don't know if that helps or not. I do know thats its hard as hell to do, because we're on the lookout for what we WANT to hear and it drowns out what she's saying. Keep at it friend, I'm praying that you guys make great progress and save your relationship. It's hard, I know, but just deal with today, don't think about tomorrow. I hope that helps.


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#378945 - 12/10/11 07:59 PM Re: I don't want a divorce--she does [Re: creyes99]
fhorns Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/10/02
Posts: 613
Edit: my main point is in the last paragraph.

Again, I almost posted this in F&F:

I wonder "what does a husband look, act, or feel like?" I've treated women like they were the teachers of men. I was raised without any adult male role models. I've "expected" them to show me these things.

The catch: ......... I feel like a little boy around my wife. I am attracted to female power figures. She's spoken how it disgusted her when I'd act like a little boy in one minute, and then start giving her sexual messages. Yeah, I did that.

I'm wanting (not really) to dismiss my want of her.........but she's a stranger to me. She separated herself from me a year or two back, using separate bank accounts. So, she had these thoughts for a long time. Every time I'd ask for a sharing of our budget, she'd give the>


Edited by fhorns (12/10/11 08:02 PM)
Edit Reason: truth came late

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#421149 - 01/05/13 05:57 PM Re: I don't want a divorce--she does [Re: fhorns]
fhorns Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/10/02
Posts: 613
TRIGGER TRIGGER

Relational stuff not pointed to anyone here. Venting out feelings from other relationships. I'm b**tching







help help help help.

I've got little hope in asking for help from anyone....anywhere. everwhere I reach out I expect "grow up. you're doing it wrong"


I'm sick and sick and sick and sick and sick and sick of being dismissed............ignored.................devaluead........................I want someone who'll look me in the eyes for more than 5 seconds before running away...........phone, our daughter.....anyone/anything else.......


how the F*** do I "hang in there"? HOW?

I'm sick, tired, wanting to give up..............nobody cares it seems....and this isn't even about abuse stuff...........


I've got noone who cares it seems.........

I believe I'm supposed to hang on.......for WHAT??? For freakin' WHAT???

I'm supposed to wait on someone to care........she's ICE. ICE COLD.......stone dead........like it gives her comfort ignoring me......

I want to QUIT.......quit caring. ....quit BSing myself.....like it's some faith I'm FAILING at once again...........she doesn't care.....neither does God..................F*** him...


I'm SO FRICKING TIRED OF WANTING/WAITING/TRYING/TEXTING/ASKING/CARING/WANTING/WISHING.

SHE DOESN'T. SHE DOESN'T. SHE DOES NOT...........(anything..fill in the blank).......

noone cares. Not God. I thought he cared too. I thought he did. NOONE cares... Noone.

Love is sick here. Asking to be vulnerable around her shuts her down, repels her, disgusts her..........AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

WHY? WHY? People in all their wisdom push me to "grow up".............sorry.......I don't/won't/cant'. Everytime I choose to I'm pushed down again..............ignored...................left with the message "You're not good enough".......

AAAAAAAAA

God/people/anyone is not here.......and I'm SICK SICK AND ANGRY OVER TRYING AGAIN.............

dO NOT tell me in an angry male way to GROW UP. SHOW ME. GDammit, if there are no MODELS, then shut the f*** up!!! If rejection is at the core of being grown up, then f*** all who have that sentiment!

If telling everyone else to F*** off is part of growing up, then................am I on my way.................F*** OFF!!


Just a little boy rant. I have NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO idea how to love someone who figuratively says to me "f*** off. Go away".


i have no help, at all.................no hope in my trying continually. i want to quit.......

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#421151 - 01/05/13 06:15 PM Re: I don't want a divorce--she does [Re: fhorns]
SamV Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 5941
Loc: Talladega, Alabama, USA
ALFRED!!!!

It is SO good to have you back in MaleSurvior, you have been sorely missed dear friend.

I too wanted a role model, there is no all-in-one model I am afraid. I learn some from him, some from them and a bit from her. It is a puzzle that we should not have to be trying to put together decades later.

It does suck, it is excruciating, anyone telling you different is selling something. Love you little boy, tell him he is doing his best and I for one am SOOOO proud! Oh and let him swear, not just the *** swear.., go out and make a sailor turn red and dive into the ocean!

Keep ranting, we are only as sick as our secrets fellow survivor. McDonald's fries have NEVER tasted the same since Florida.

Have you considered going to a Weekend of Recovery?

You cannot know how good it is to see you! laugh

SamV aka sasuva
_________________________
MaleSurvivor Moderator Emeritus 2012 - 2014

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#421152 - 01/05/13 06:31 PM Re: I don't want a divorce--she does [Re: fhorns]
fhorns Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/10/02
Posts: 613
I read old messages in this post.................gggggggggggggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

She has no idea...no idea..........she doe NOT care WHAT'S ON MY MIND..........I'VE QUIT TRYING.

I walked out of her room yesterday.....she'd offered to listen since I huffed...she noticed and asked what was on my mind....I told her I was sick of not having any help (with our daughter). I walked out while she started to speak.........since as usual her remarks were about my errors.......f*** her........ hear my distance........feel my abandonment.......feel my pain...............

or GO TO HELL..........


Why.....why.....why won't she hear me? WHY?????!!!!!!

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#421165 - 01/05/13 09:09 PM Re: I don't want a divorce--she does [Re: fhorns]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6815
Loc: USA
Alfred

I hear you.

((((((Alfred))))))

puffer

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#421166 - 01/05/13 09:16 PM Re: I don't want a divorce--she does [Re: fhorns]
genedebs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/12
Posts: 285
Loc: MO
fhorns

YOU ARE ANGRY she is defended. She is too buzy justifying why she is right and you are wrong to hear.

You are having so much pain you want to focus on the hope that she will accept you, caress, reassure you, validate your needs and your presence. I don't see that happening.

I was three years sober, in cognitive behavioral therapy {weekly for ever) and she wanted me out of the house. We had tried couples therapy for a little over 6 months. At the end of it she said she didn't understand what the therapist said. We agreed on a six month separation, punctuated by monthly "dates." Also the youngest was still in the house so I visited him every week, usually not even see her. At our second date, she asked what nI was doing, I said that this is what we agreed to, trying this for six months. Forget it, there is no getting back together. So I drove her back home and that was the end of it.

So you can see my experience is not positive in this regard. But I agree with you. She is not caring for you, she is disrespecting you, and no matter how many time you say you quit trying, you have not surrendered. You hold on, hope against hope that she will not abandon you. The child within can't tolerate this.

But, still you want it to return to the way it was three years ago maybe. Not going to happen. The relationship has been going down hill since before she set up a separate bank account. It hasn't gotten better. But you still hang on.

Have you thought that God heard your request for help and thought that you needed to leave not put more energy into this downhill relationship. Again I am biased. That may not be how your God acts.

We are here with you for what ever that is worth. But this pain your in is so much what made the child within vulnerable and unsafe.

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#421167 - 01/05/13 09:19 PM Re: I don't want a divorce--she does [Re: fhorns]
peroperic2009 Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/11
Posts: 3600
Loc: South-East Europe
I'm so sorry that you are felt so isolated, lonely and not seen.
Must say that those are some of the most hurtful feelings for me and I never know how to deal with it.
One buddy showed me yesterday this short movie about love, don't know if it could help but I have need to share it here:



Keep searching how to come to her...

Pero
_________________________
My story

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#421177 - 01/05/13 10:19 PM * [Re: fhorns]
Smalltown80sBoy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 2217
*


Edited by Smalltown80sBoy (04/29/13 01:51 PM)

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#421179 - 01/05/13 10:32 PM Re: I don't want a divorce--she does [Re: fhorns]
fhorns Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/10/02
Posts: 613
That video is worth watching....again, and again, and again.

I get in that loop sometimes...and the more I stew it, the more my bitterness GROWS. Absolutely grows.

I was praying (actually venting) to God tonight: "where are YOU? I thought you had my back..." Pure steam.....which just grew. Nothing changed in me for the better. My anger just grew.

It's (figuratively) like a campfire which I like to be around. Look, if I throw this twig in, it'll get hotter.....cool, (I've got some power now). Let's try this...and this.....cool....(feeling more powerful now)....

Get the picture? Anger's like that for me. The video was a good warning.

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#421190 - 01/05/13 11:33 PM Re: I don't want a divorce--she does [Re: fhorns]
fhorns Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/10/02
Posts: 613
To illustrate,

I'd turned my phone off since I wanted to pout/stew/vent....and keep her OUT. It's been about 5 hours.

I turned it on, and she'd texted me to call her 2 hours ago. I did, she'd needed something (which I was too late for), she'd managed, but I apologized and admitted I'd been in a bad mood--thus me turning off the phone.

She accepted and appreciated me telling her (I think), but communication--to me--is very very good. She's not there for me at all, purposefully, most days.

Maybe this is what Pero was talking about when he proposed seeking a way to approach her: I don't let her know, directly, how I feel. It's too risky since she shuts down, blows me off, gets busy, etc.

Silence/distance is one way to communicate my unhappiness.......though it's often tainted with revenge.

But.....it worked. How might I communicate effectively with her when I'm seeking her attention? That's my question.

How'd you guys work/not work it out?

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#421208 - 01/06/13 01:27 AM * [Re: fhorns]
Smalltown80sBoy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 2217
*


Edited by Smalltown80sBoy (04/29/13 01:52 PM)

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#421214 - 01/06/13 02:08 AM Re: I don't want a divorce--she does [Re: fhorns]
fhorns Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/10/02
Posts: 613
To be honest..........no. I haven't. Why?

Because I (don't know where it comes from but I) tend to be very explicit, mean, exact......finding what's really hurting me.

Maybe.....I'm just afraid. We used to have a journal in our bathroom given to us for our wedding. It was for the purpose of communicating stuff, feelings, disagreements, etc., stuff out of the norm. I'd be pissed at her, be up late........and write her...........

Gary, I'm....kind of scared to write like that again to her. I read my old writings a year back, and....I was no more than 6 years old writing her. I was saying basically "mommy, you hurt me". Then I'd vent in my harmful anger since........she didn't meet my childhood needs.

It hurt reading it since my anger was "bullyish", so totally unearned by her. She's not "mommy". Got any ideas on that?

Feeling small thinking of it. My little boy felt hurt, I wanted/pleaded/demanded that "mommy" fix it.....and since she wouldn't/couldn't, pouting would lead to more anger coming from me. And me acting six is her main motivation for keeping distance from me right now and the last year. She so doesn't want to be "mommy" to me. It was a major turnoff to her--literally.

I'm dumping. (Thanks)

I almost pushed "submit" and thought "I so don't want to share this"

Thanks for asking.

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#421348 - 01/07/13 01:39 AM * [Re: fhorns]
Smalltown80sBoy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 2217
*


Edited by Smalltown80sBoy (04/29/13 01:55 PM)

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