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#3774 - 04/11/03 06:35 PM Re: Intimacy...
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Ivanhoe:

You said it all brother. There is nothing else quiet like intimacy in the human experience. I know your children will grow up in a loving environment

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#3775 - 04/11/03 07:36 PM Re: Intimacy...
outis Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/27/03
Posts: 2260
Loc: Maryland USA
I thought I knew something about intimacy, but when my wife told me last year we were "not in a loving relationship" I started to wonder. There are still so many things that I can't share yet. Even here, when I have tried to write in the Survivor's Stories forum I never go through with it. And it's not that I'm going to shock anybody here with it; it's some problem I have with letting something so personal out.

Like Bob said,
Quote:
Intimacy requires trust and that does not come quickly for a survivor.
My wife and I are working on the same page now, and our marriage is improving. I have three beautiful children, and I thank God for them. But there's the shame thing, the walled off emotions.

I don't know what I'm talking about. I tend to ramble when I try to apply what I've learned about the effects of abuse to myself. At least now I have some place to ramble while I work through this.

Joe

_________________________
"Telemachos, your guest is no discredit to you. I wasted no time in stringing the bow, and I did not miss the mark. My strength is yet unbroken…"—The Odyssey, translated by W.H.D. Rouse

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#3776 - 04/11/03 09:13 PM Re: Intimacy...
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Sometimes when I check in here I'm staggered by what I read, tonight is one of those nights.
Where else could we get this kind of talk amongst a bunch of guys who don't even know each other ?

There's so much positive stuff here from Mike, Zadok, Ivanhoe and all the others, we've even got a new guy Jimrh putting his first post into this difficult subject, Welcome Jimrh, thanks for you post.

There's so much encouragement in what you guys write for guys like me, it makes sense. Maybe it's made sense to me for a long while, but I just couldn't get a handle on it. Sometimes we have to think outside the box (to use a dreadful management cliche ) and your thoughts are helping me to do that.

Quote:
With a friend You share a part of the only thing you own; your body. And that part is your brain. It is what makes you unique. It contains your emotions, beliefs(real or imagined) and your humanity. Sharing that part of you with someone is huge. AND WE HAVE ALL DONE IT HERE [Big Grin]
Mike, somehow I can walk the walk, but I don't seem to get anywhere. I can talk in any amount of intimate, and emotional detail with my wife, as I do here, but although I have the desires and the intelectual knowledge of "what and why" is going on, I just can't make those final steps.

Quote:
You have to totally let go of all your reservations, doubts and fear. It is sharing with someone at every level of your being. To achieve it, a person must place their trust totally in another, and that was very hard for me. I had to trust my wife with all the ugliness I had always hid, with all the embarrassing sexual fantasies and past I had. I had to trust her not to judge me, and to support me and love me despite those things. Not everyone would be lucky enough to find a person that would do that, but I was.
Zadoc, I already have a wife who wants to share at every level, and I do to. I have trust in her, total trust. I think I don't yet trust myself fully, something to work on eh ?

The only wall between us is mine, I know that, and I've wrecked all the other walls I had.
Perhaps the other walls crumbled fairly easily compared to this one, and it's something I didn't expect ?
I've come this far, and I ain't going to be beaten.

Thanks for the inspiration.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#3777 - 04/12/03 12:09 PM Re: Intimacy...
outis Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/27/03
Posts: 2260
Loc: Maryland USA
Quote:
Mike, somehow I can walk the walk, but I don't seem to get anywhere. I can talk in any amount of intimate, and emotional detail with my wife, as I do here, but although I have the desires and the intelectual knowledge of "what and why" is going on, I just can't make those final steps.
Dave,

That's almost exactly how I feel. My wife has listened and listened. I actually lose my voice and sometimes stutter (unusual for me). And I get afraid just imagining talking about some things, even though I feel safe with her.

Quote:
The only wall between us is mine, I know that, and I've wrecked all the other walls I had.
Perhaps the other walls crumbled fairly easily compared to this one, and it's something I didn't expect ?
I do think the wall is mine. I built it for a reason, and I've grown so accustomed to it that somehow I'm not ready to tear it down. I think maybe I'm knocking some holes in it, a little at a time, and perhaps one day soon it too will crumble.

Thank you for the inspiriation!

Joe

_________________________
"Telemachos, your guest is no discredit to you. I wasted no time in stringing the bow, and I did not miss the mark. My strength is yet unbroken…"—The Odyssey, translated by W.H.D. Rouse

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#3778 - 04/12/03 08:00 PM Re: Intimacy...
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Lloyd:
You cant make that final step. Yup it is a hard one but think a bit about it. You are fearful cause you never done it brother since the shit hit the fan. Everyone is afraid of the unknown, without exception. If they say otherwise they are fooling themeselves.

It is much akin to those brave soldiers in Iraq putting themselves in harms way. All the practice for it cannot compare to the real thing. And I have heard lately some pretty tought young marines saying yeh they were scared but they did it anyway. And that my brother is the essence of your fear. Fear itself.

There comes a time when we gotta take that step come hell or high water. And it is better to take it now than when it is too late.

Give it a try. Just close your eyes hold your breath and let go totally. You will find that it is totally unfamiliar and yet at the same time the most devastatingly comfortable feeling in the world.It is like a nectar of the gods I am telling you. I have found it on occasion and it has only wet my thirst for more ,more and even more of it. smile

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#3779 - 04/12/03 08:32 PM Re: Intimacy...
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
well, what can I say............

I knocked a small hole in the wall today \:D
And it felt good, but you're right Mike - fear is the cement of the wall for me.
But I've overcome worse fears ( I think ) and TOGETHER we are overcoming this fear.

I talked during sex, asked for things to be done, and if I could do anything different, I allowed myself to have full body contact, ( is this toooo much detail \:o ) and I recognise that we 'made love' No fantasy either, which was so good - because there was no guilt after for having a 'sick mind'

All I have to do now is repeat the happy event....

I have to say that this whole topic has helped me immensely. Just the fact that I could express some thoughts, get some ideas back and know that I wasn't alone has helped me to approach the problem in a different way, I hope it carries on. Thanks.

Dave ;\)

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#3780 - 04/12/03 08:46 PM Re: Intimacy...
Sick Puppy Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/03
Posts: 300
Loc: Nowhere Land
Lloydy:

Great for you! \:\)

During sex I used to lie as still as possible and never talk or make any noise. My sexual partners would usually feel uncomfortable with it but I would not (could not?) change. In the last few months I have made attempts to remedy this and it has been working great so far. I think I participate much better now in sex and it actually feels better too. It all started with a step like yours and you are right in that you have begun to knock down that wall. \:\)

_________________________
And one day we will die
And our ashes will fly
From the aeroplane over the sea
But for now we are young
Let us lay in the sun
And count every beautiful thing we can see


Neutral Milk Hotel - In the Aeroplane Over the Sea

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#3781 - 04/12/03 09:09 PM Re: Intimacy...
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
SP

Quote:
I think I participate much better now in sex and it actually feels better too.
Today it felt as though I had taken sex out of my head and into my body, I thought more about the great sensations my body felt and less about the crap I usually do - the fear of failure, SA based memories / fantasies, feeling like 'an abuser' because I instigated sex, worrying whether my wife was liking what I was doing ( I just asked, how hard is that ??? )

That's too much crap to think about AND enjoy myself, I must remember that....

Dave :rolleyes:

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#3782 - 04/13/03 02:10 AM Re: Intimacy...
Sleepy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 288
Loc: Arizona, USA
I was out of town yesterday and most of today but when I returned to this post I felt like a little kid observing with big, wide-eyes. Most of this is so new to me that at this point I don't really know what to say. I'm still processing it. Truely, I do feel like a little kid observing something for the first time. I know that I have more questions and issues to raise but I'm not really sure what they are.

Dave,
When you first mentioned that this was a sad thread I began to question whether I should have started it in the first place. But the way that it progressed was pretty cool and it put any doubts to rest.

MikeChurch,
You are a guru. What else can I say?

Enough for tonight. I need to sleep on this issue some more.
Time for bed,
mike

_________________________
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end."
--Ursula K. Le Guin

"Mental health is a commitment to reality at all times."
--M. Scott Peck

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#3783 - 04/13/03 08:20 AM Re: Intimacy...
guy43 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 450
Loc: Minnesota
Straying off topic:

Sleepy, please stop doubting what you write. Sharing our Strengths, Experiences and Hopes is what this place is all about. The good, the bad, and everything in between.

We all have our truths and need to claim ownership of our right to express what was supressed and ripped away from us. Newcomers and oldtimers to MS, those with years of recovery and those just starting recovery or in the midst of the painful beginnings of awareness of the damage caused by their sa, we all have equally valid points to share.

Getting back on topic:

Lloydy reply about this being a sad post is true for me. It goes beyond sadness in fact for me.

My two cents about this thing called Intimacy.

Those who wrote about their difficulty gazing into someone else's eyes reminded me of a post I made awhile back about looking into a mirror. I had a spiritual moment of being able to not hate my appearence and, in a way not hate myself. Maybe looking someone else in the eyes becomes easier when one can look into their own with acceptance.

I can see a little more clearly now the wisdom of a commonly expressed belief - we can't truly love (and by extension be intimate) another human being without first (underscore first) loving ourselves. In other words, being intimate begins with knowing, accepting and loving (that sooo difficult for me emotion) ourselves in some manner. [I don't know about those who can love others but not themselves, I've no clue how that works].

For me, the worse thing taken from us by our abusers is our ability to trust, relate to, and be intimate with others. The younger we were when the abuses began makes the relational damage even more tragic and devastating and thus the more difficult our journey toward healing.

This thread is another example of hope shining forth, that some us have intimacy in their lives, that some of us are learning how to be intimate.

Maybe some day I'll be able to be in an intimate, meaningful relationship. First things first. I'm left with having to heal myself or I'll never having love and intimacy in my life.

jer


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