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#37735 - 06/06/03 10:54 PM Re: Words and Phrases I hate when talking about abuse!
sonlite Offline
Member

Registered: 12/11/01
Posts: 100
Loc: North Carolina
way to go James!

I am very angry and frustrated too. I don't take what your comments were literally, I am just in agreement w how you let out the sense of betrayal and bullsh*tted-ness (hows that for a word?) that goes w having pick up what is our lives and try to be happy. James my 'story' begins at age 7 and I very much understand in my own heart.

john


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#37736 - 06/06/03 11:05 PM Re: Words and Phrases I hate when talking about abuse!
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
James,

Perhaps in this thread you (and some of the rest of us) are trying to express our frustration at not having adequate words to describe what we've been thru & how we feel? Becuz really what happened to us & how it affects us often totally defies de>
_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#37737 - 06/07/03 02:20 AM Re: Words and Phrases I hate when talking about abuse!
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Quote:
trying to express our frustration at not having adequate words to describe what we've been thru & how we feel?
I would say that is right. I have no idea how to word what I'm feeling. The words and phrases I have said here just seem so tame, what happened to me wasnt tame. It was hell. How come we use words like; healing, journey, etc... like what happened was no big deal. F**k that, what happened to me was/is a big deal. It just seems like we as survivor's sugar coat what happened to us as much as the media or churches do. How can we expect them to stop if we are doing to yoursleves. I mean if we say we're healing then what are our perps' doing? I dont know, I just wish I could find a better phrase to define what I am doing. I'll have to think about it some more, maybe I can come up with one. Thank again guys for the reply's.
James

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


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#37738 - 06/07/03 01:44 PM Re: Words and Phrases I hate when talking about abuse!
Thad Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/28/01
Posts: 1752
Loc: Oakland, CA
Words are important. They are symbols to which we attach meaning. We string them together to express ideas and describe our experiences, thoughts and feelings.

The words you question are therapeutic words – used by T’s and adopted by us to talk about something that runs far deeper than they can ever hope to explain. They are shortcuts with which we try to explain ways we have dealt with our trauma – we use them in common because there are great similarities between what we go through. But we don’t always mean the same thing when we use them.

The hardest part about them is that they are inadequate to express the depth of feelings. To someone who is still struggling to get out the anger, isolation, frustration, of our trauma – they seem to objectify those feelings and point us toward strategies of getting over them –

Therein is the frustrating part – when we still need to get the feelings out – to vent – to say the truth of how we feel – they seem like they are meant to pacify us – and sometimes they are (sometimes they get said because we find it hard to just listen and acknowledge another’s venting) – but for someone who has been able to get his feelings out and is ready to work on them – they are ways of talking about that which has helped us cope. (and I truly believe in the good will and caring instincts of the guys here who want to help)

If the words seem frustrating – I suggest you stay with saying the truth about your feelings (as hard as that may be) – until you are ready to give meaning to the words about healing – And, yes, we could use some better words – any suggestions?

btw, james, thanks for the great post...t

_________________________
"..this place isn't a discussion forum..it's a portal..." Lupin
"The truth will set you free, but first it will probably piss you off." dwf's AA sponsor.

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#37739 - 06/07/03 02:06 PM Re: Words and Phrases I hate when talking about abuse!
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Quote:
when we still need to get the feelings out – to vent – to say the truth of how we feel – they seem like they are meant to pacify us
You know, I think that's the reason I dont like them.

Quote:
and I truly believe in the good will and caring instincts of the guys here who want to help
As do I, I hope my words has in no way made any of my brother's here feel that where words have any less meaning to me or anyone else. In the post I have done and in the chat's, I have had them words use to me. And they do help, so if I have upset anyone with what I have said please please know this...that is not what I wanted to do..I love each and everyone of you, and I really enjoy reading where each of you are in your recovery.

Quote:
The hardest part about them is that they are inadequate to express the depth of feelings.
AMEN BROTHER!!!!!

Quote:
If the words seem frustrating – I suggest you stay with saying the truth about your feelings (as hard as that may be)
lol...I wish I could think of something that would put better meaning to the anger/hurt/lonlyness/and just general feeling of shit.

Thad...thank you for your reply. Very insiteful for me. You really did a good job saying what I had no idea how to. This is how Im feeling about these words. That they just seem to trivalize how I really feel inside when I put all the mask away and truly look at who/what I am.

Well once more guys Im so sorry if anything I have said in this post has hurt anyone. That is not what I wanted to do. I guess I should read the guidlines to the chat again. After all each of us are in a differnt place in our recovery. For me words like healing and such have no meaning. Well no I cant say it is meaningless to me, when one of you tell me how your healing it makes me feel good and yes it even gives me a bit of hope that one day "healing" will mean something to me as well. Thanks again for the reply guys you'll are really to good to me.. (((((hugs))))))
James

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


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#37740 - 06/07/03 05:15 PM Re: Words and Phrases I hate when talking about abuse!
outis Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/27/03
Posts: 2260
Loc: Maryland USA
James,

I think of some kind of organic phenomenon when I think of the words "healing" and "process" in terms of moving beyond SA. I had to dig for "phenomenon" \:\) above to avoid "process," but how about "growing" instead of "healing?" I need to grow beyond the SA and its effects. I know, it's not much better.

As for why am I the one "healing," the perp needs his own work. I'm not overly concerned with whether that's a form of "healing" or not. At least at this point.

"Process" just shows that this is open-ended, and "journey" to me carries the connotation that the value doesn't depend on reaching some destination, but on how I conduct myself from here on out. It's an interesting metaphor, too. I talk about "being in a bad place" or "wanting to be in a better place" and the notion of a journey fits right in with those ideas. And before I ever conciously thought about that word, I chose my handle and my sig, so I'm partial to using "journey." \:\)

The abuses and my reactions to them are certainly a part of who/what I am today, so I think they do define me to some degree, just as good events (meeting my wife, becoming a parent, finding you guys) define me to some degree, too.

I really don't often think in terms of them winning or not winning, etc. I don't believe anyone ever set out to try to destroy me or my life and would be disappointed to learn that I was making things better. They did take what they wanted without regard for me and my life, but I'd bet they don't ever worry about any kind of "winning." When I have to talk myself out of suicide, I think of the people that I would leave behind, and how I would not want to hurt them. I don't believe a perp is going to feel any kind of loss or sadness because I choose not to kill myself. Maybe a bit of relief relative to the risk of exposure if I ever did kill myself, but that's it.

Understand how I feel? I think the guys here can understand what I go through, because you've each had to endure things that were similiar. I'm glad my wife doesn't understand in that sense, and Heaven help anyone who tries to get her to understand. But we're all unique and Mike's right, no one else can know how I feel. They can understand that I feel a certain way about something (if I get around to feeling one of these days), but I think that's different.

Yeah, a really good discussion. Thanks for kicking it off.

Thanks,

Joe

_________________________
"Telemachos, your guest is no discredit to you. I wasted no time in stringing the bow, and I did not miss the mark. My strength is yet unbroken…"—The Odyssey, translated by W.H.D. Rouse

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#37741 - 06/07/03 09:22 PM Re: Words and Phrases I hate when talking about abuse!
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
words are so important to us, and my choice of words is even more important when I write my personal journal.
I often go back and re-write them, I never alter them in any important way but I tinker with the wording sometimes. And I always save it as a different version, that way I get to see if I have subconciously altered something. And sometimes I do add to them.

My first writing was back in 1999, and here's two extracts where I was already concerned with my choices of words.

Quote:
I’ve written this over a couple of days, and gone over it altering it here and there but not much. Certainly not the story, that’s remained on the page as it came, vividly, from my memory. But I have had concerns over the language and the detail I have used.
Should I just say “sex took place” or is it right to describe the events as I remember them in some detail? And what language should I use? Should I say “anal sex” or is the more graphic “fucked me” appropriate? Does “I performed oral sex” sound like a clinical, medical paper? or “sucked him off” sound like cheap porn?
As I read what I’ve written I wonder if using the language of adult movies brings my story down to that level or does it make it more realistic for anyone that reads this? It was realistic for me, and it still is, so I guess I’m going for realism. The language doesn’t embarrass me, it’s the language I use anyway amongst friends and with my wife. Not freely and gratuitously but if I stub my toe on the end of the bed I say, “fuck it!”
I suppose my worry is that the reader will get the impression that I wrote it that way because I am still turned on by the memories and by being graphic in my de>
_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#37742 - 06/08/03 12:29 AM Re: Words and Phrases I hate when talking about abuse!
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Really love this thread James thanks!

Some personal synonyms:

Healing: recovering, becoming whole, growing.

Process: progress, my own time, my own pace.

Journey: struggle, Recovery Road, my way.

I need to learn that the abuse doesnt define me:

I need to learn how & how much abuse has defined me or defined my life or shaped & influenced who I am and what I do.

Abuse isn't the definition of me and what it did is a perversion & confusion of my true self. But I need to acknowledge the abuse and its impact in order to know, find, embrace & be the real me.

Dont let THEM win:

Yes I do think in terms of victory, winning, overcoming, triumphant living.

Lots of ways of looking at this one. Am I in a contest with my perps or not? Definitely I'm in a warfare to overcome what they did to me & what it did to me. Did they win anything by abusing me? Do they win when that abuse continues to hurt me?
Not by my standards of winning. About there standards, I don't give a damn.

By me being here, they have lost:

In a sense yes. Especially my mother. She was trying to make something of me I wasn't, trying to permanently shape my life to her liking. My being here, my recovery work, means she is losing her war to do this to me.

In another sense, she hasn't lost becuz I'm still the one suffering becuz of & struggling against what she did. She's such a narcissist its unlikely
its bothering her in the least.
:rolleyes:
Then again she's and my other perps are the ones who were so evil, insecure, foolish, shallow, weak
disgusting & hateful the best they could do to try
to be better or stronger, to justify their existences, was to abuse a little boy they had it all over on in power & authority--but not in character & integrity, things they know little to nothing about.

In my book that makes them losers. In my book that makes me a winner.

And since I'm the one writing my book! :p ...

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#37744 - 06/08/03 01:49 AM Re: Words and Phrases I hate when talking about abuse!
dwf Offline
Moderator/BoD Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 1223
Loc: Austin, Texas USA
Hi James,

It's always good for me to see how other men express their anger and frustration.

It's something that I am still not very good at.

So thank you for expressing yours.

A couple of questions:

If you weren't busy being pissed off at the language that some of use to describe our situations, who would you then be pissed off at?

If you weren't frustrated with the language used to describe abuse and recovery, what would you then be frustrated about?

It's great for me to let my emotions go, so that I can see where they might take me to,
and also so that I can see what they're taking me away from.

I don't get to know any of this stuff if I don't have a way and place to try to honestly express myself.

Congratulations on broaching a sensitive subject--you did it in a most caring manner.

It's great for me to see that it is possible to feel anger, frustration but also keep the love and compassion alive in my heart too.

I'm pissed off about being abused. I'm frustrated by my lack of means of expression for my emotions.

And I hope that I'll continue learning how to express myself so that I can continue to grow.

Thanks to you and all the other guys for showing me how.

Regards to my brothers,

_________________________
"Poke salad Annie, 'gators got you granny
Everybody said it was a shame
'Cause her mama was aworkin' on the chain-gang"

-Tony Joe White

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#37745 - 06/08/03 03:14 AM Re: Words and Phrases I hate when talking about abuse!
Thad Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/28/01
Posts: 1752
Loc: Oakland, CA
I had another thought about symbols – a wise man said that symbols point to something more infinitly complex and are useful by the degree to which they were transparent – in other words if we just heard/saw the word or symbol without them revealing the more complex truth to which they pointed then they have failed as words.

I realized that the words of the 6 or 7 therapists that I was sent to between the age of 7 and 22, were hardly pointing to the truth that alluded me for the rest of my life. They became like a little dance around the truth to further confound me – to sooth and placate this petulant child. I hated their words – they were worse than meaningless – their mannerisms drove me nuts – faining interest and projecting superior knowledge –

I lived in a world of denial which constantly folded in on itself – sending me back to the my worse fear – that it was me who was screwed up – and all these feelings that something was wrong were just more proof of my defectiveness –

I hated the words of denial – such that now when I feel someone is avoiding the truth it is a trigger and I feel compelled to nearly yell at them, “that’s not true!” Not always appropriate –

Which brings me to smiley faces – ARRRRGGGG – they set me off – they are so opaque - they point only to themselves and deny the truth of feelings much more complex – they throw me back into the oppression of my family – the mind numbing therapy speak I was subjected to – they make me want to yell “tell the truth! Say the feelings as fully and truthfully as you can" –

[I mean no offense to anyone by this – guess I just needed to say my feelings – feels good to rant once and a while]

_________________________
"..this place isn't a discussion forum..it's a portal..." Lupin
"The truth will set you free, but first it will probably piss you off." dwf's AA sponsor.

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