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#377213 - 11/28/11 09:28 PM SURVIVORS - help a girl out!
Esposa Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 728
Loc: NJ
Ok... tell me if this is acceptable....

My husband has a shrink that knows nothing about CSA. He started seeing him in May when I said THERAPY OR OUT. But now that he has revealed the abuse, things have gotten a lot worse. He told me that he doesn't work on this with his T.

This is what I want to say.... and I need you to edit me. (HE IS MAKING MY LIFE NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE)

I want you to see someone who knows about CSA. And I want you to go to the doctor and talk about your depression and how to treat it.

I don't want this to be optional. I also realize that control is a big deal for him. I need input, advice, editing....


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#377214 - 11/28/11 09:37 PM Re: SURVIVORS - help a girl out! [Re: Esposa]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6607
Loc: FEMA Region 1
"I want you to _________ " freaks me out (personally) cuz that's what I yielded to as a boy and then as a messed-up husband.

"You really ought to __________ " would sit with me much better.

Esposa. The two of you need something as a base-line with which to judge things like Ts and severity, etc. If husband does not own the good book (Victims No Longer) by Mike Lew, I'd change that like right now.

It will show him that the T is a tard. It will also do a ton of things for him right away.

Get the book and slow down decisions. Barnes and Noble has it on the shelves. HE will most likely not feel comfortable buying it. Something for you to do maybe smile ?



Edited by Robbie Brown (11/28/11 09:39 PM)
_________________________
Hell needs firewood too ya know!

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#377219 - 11/28/11 10:48 PM Re: SURVIVORS - help a girl out! [Re: Still]
Esposa Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 728
Loc: NJ
I totally get it. I will get that book. He is super resistant to reading anything right now. Wish me luck.


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#377254 - 11/29/11 04:48 AM Re: SURVIVORS - help a girl out! [Re: Esposa]
JaapVisser Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 57
Loc: The Netherlands
Well if control is a big issue, then a book might work. He can take control over it, take his own steps in getting into it.

Talk with him and see in what stage he is. I had problems in the beginning with reading Victims no longer since it was quite confronting. I did it step by step. If you find out that he is maybe willing to read, but more in a "taking distance" mode then the book by Richard Gartner (Beyond Betrayal, taking charge of your life after boyhood sexual abuse) is a great start. This book was personally for me an eye opener. It is written very well and very clear and doesn't sit on your skin (hope you know what I mean :D) as Victims no Longer can do.

Also I could recommend for you to read the book from Cecil Murphy: When a Man You Love Was Abused: A Woman's Guide to Helping Him Overcome Childhood Sexual Molestation.

It can help in understanding his behaviour, his fears etc. My girlfriend read it and it was a great eye opener for her. I also read it and also for me it offered some great insights.
I have to say this book comes with some spirituality, but it's very little. You can read it very well if you are not religious (like I am, dunno if you are, but don't let it scare you).

Both books are found in the bookstore btw (http://www.malesurvivor.org/bookstore.html)

Good luck!



Edited by JaapVisser (11/29/11 04:51 AM)
_________________________
Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent.

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#377258 - 11/29/11 06:01 AM Re: SURVIVORS - help a girl out! [Re: JaapVisser]
kolisha54 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/02/03
Posts: 475
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Oh gosh! Please be careful the way you frame these questions... "Control" is SUCH a huge issue! Please consider editing out the "I want you to's" & the "You ought to's" & use perhaps "How would you feel abouts" instead???

_________________________
If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? If not now... when? --Hillel

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#377260 - 11/29/11 06:49 AM Re: SURVIVORS - help a girl out! [Re: Still]
Gretta Offline


Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 239


Ok I am sorry for being completely stupid in these matters but why can't she say I really need or want you to.... At this point he either wants to save his marriage or not. She is NOT the enemy or the perp. She is his wife and despite the fact that he has done everything to destroy his relationship with her she is still there. That is love. When does that get any weight in the relationship?

I know personally my H was frustrated that he could no longer manipulate me. He had spent years taking advantage of my good nature and lying to me. It's an adjustment in the relationship. Tip toeing around the obvious is annoying to me.

He needs a therapist who is experienced with CSA which just makes sense. At this point this therapy is less effective and a waste of time and $. I get the anxiety of changing therapist. Creating that relationship all over again is exhausting. I would get that reason and help him work through that. But assuming he is not happy where he is, you have no choice but to but one foot in front of the other to try and make things better.

Doesn't she have any rights. I understand there needs to be a conversation and not demands but I think eventually he is either willing to do the work or not. She can't do it all by herself. Hopefully he is a reader otherwise she sounds like she is at his mercy!

Sorry I hope I wasn't too harsh but eventually as spouses of survivors we have to say enough is enough. It's a balance of compassion, love for the survivor and love for yourself. We are here so we have showed our significant others how much we love them, we need to feel important and loved too.


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#377266 - 11/29/11 08:24 AM Re: SURVIVORS - help a girl out! [Re: Gretta]
Esposa Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 728
Loc: NJ
Thanks Gretta wink

I read Beyond Betrayal and that was an amazing book. I wish he would read it but right now this is his tack - "Whatcha reading?" "A book about male CSA" "Oh nice. what a great use of your time. Learn anything interesting?" And I tell him something and then he makes fun of me (this is when he doesn't feel like denying it happened) It's the strangest thing for me - the back and forth. I mean, he told me what happened but then he usually acts like he didn't and then sometimes he just comes out with something - like "If anyone ever tried to abuse me again..." I guess this is normal but man, as a supporter, it sure would be nice to at least agree between the two of us.

I know that how I phrase something, as unfortunate as it may feel, is crucial to how he receives the information. But I just simply CANNOT live with him if he is not going to address any of the issues. And his current T is a serious waste of money and time. How can you sit in therapy week after week and never talk about the abuse? And when I went to see his therapist with him once, he referred to it as SEX. IT IS NOT SEX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My god. He was a very little tiny boy.

And let's be honest, I have cared for and protected my husband for almost 2 decades. Sure, new shoes were nice. A new car was nice. BUT THIS IS IMPORTANT. How come I can pick his tie but I can't help him get the help he deserves?????


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#377275 - 11/29/11 09:38 AM Re: SURVIVORS - help a girl out! [Re: kolisha54]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6607
Loc: FEMA Region 1
Originally Posted By: kolisha54
Oh gosh! Please be careful the way you frame these questions... "Control" is SUCH a huge issue! Please consider editing out the "I want you to's" & the "You ought to's" & use perhaps "How would you feel abouts" instead???


Absolutely correct! I was fully wrong with "You ought to ______ ." Don't know what I was thinking.

In sales (to very highly educated people), I use to use "Many others have found _______ to be helpful."

_________________________
Hell needs firewood too ya know!

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#377289 - 11/29/11 10:41 AM Re: SURVIVORS - help a girl out! [Re: Still]
Esposa Offline
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Registered: 10/19/11
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Loc: NJ
I like the MANY OTHERS HAVE FOUND....

I have to admit that I put Ken Singer's book in our bathroom and I put a piece of hair on it so I know he has at least opened the thing wink


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#377302 - 11/29/11 11:44 AM Re: SURVIVORS - help a girl out! [Re: Esposa]
whome Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/07/11
Posts: 1736
Loc: Johannesburg South Africa
Hi Esposa

Yeah, Control is a huge issue with us, it stems from the not being in control whilst being abused and the need now to always be in control. It is still a major issue for me, and there are still situations in my home where I have to step back and remind myself that I cannot mentally abuse my wife into doing things.
So a big no no is to TELL HIM TO DO ANYTHING. Encourage, Love and coerce, are better options.
The "you will or I will" scenario, works only once in our lives and that is when we have lost total control over our lives and want help. After that I have to be in control of what I am doing.
Difference is that I would not put up with a Bad T's crap, but then my true desire is to heal from this ASAP, doesn't feel like it will be any time soon though, but yeah I WANT IT.


Hope you can convince him to change his T, in a loving encouraging way, for both of you.

Heal well
Martin

_________________________
Matrix Men South Africa
Survivors Supporting Each other
Matrix Men Blog

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#377306 - 11/29/11 01:42 PM Re: SURVIVORS - help a girl out! [Re: whome]
Esposa Offline
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Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 728
Loc: NJ
I could make an appointment with one for both of us and then drop off the scene wink

The control thing is WAY OUT OF CONTROL lately. It is without a doubt abusive what he is doing to me - and so incredibly destructive. I have no idea how to stop it - and can only try to protect myself from him, which feels so wrong.


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#377307 - 11/29/11 02:17 PM Re: SURVIVORS - help a girl out! [Re: Esposa]
JaapVisser Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 57
Loc: The Netherlands
We lost control when we where young in a period that should create and stimulate things like trust and control. If that is broken in a really horrible way, combined with a trauma, then somehow it will try to find its way out in a later stage in life.
Seems like that is happening now and you are the unfortunate victim of it. The problem is that you can't fight it with taking the control. It will work like a red blanket on a bull (no idea if this is also an expression in english, but I think the point is clear, I hope smile ).

When I was collapsing and was really destructive towards my relation, my girlfriend sort of took a step back, took it all and then showed me her love and dedication in the months after that. This sort of made ME realise how extremely wrong I was and that is hard. One the one hand I felt a victim of my past, but also I was guilty towards my girlfriend and it made me realise I had to work so hard to deal with these issues, because eventhough I am victim, it is not always simply an excuse for my actions. Also during therapy it was pointed out that it is one of the things you have to discover yourself. The problem is that the more people try to blame you and force you in a corner, the more deeper you will try to hide and run away.

Again I point you towards the book of Cecil Murphy who deals also with this kinds of things and otherwise I think maybe seek counceling yourself with a therapist who knows how to deal with csa and workout a strategy with that therapist on how to manage your life and how to find a workaround in getting him in therapy.



Edited by JaapVisser (11/29/11 02:20 PM)
_________________________
Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent.

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#377309 - 11/29/11 02:23 PM Re: SURVIVORS - help a girl out! [Re: whome]
Gretta Offline


Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 239

This is a sincere question to the Survivors.

Is being in control MORE important than the person you love? That's the question. Do you want to be alone or do you want to try and create a relationship of mutual respect and love. No one person in any relationship should have all the control all the time. God knows I don't want it all the time. It's exhausting.

I understand control being an issue but I don't understand letting it take over to the point where you push someone away. My husband behavior was SO out of control that the thought of him demanding control would have been laughable. I agree we need to be loving and encouraging and I have been, but telling your mate what you need and want is a part of any relationship. I am not saying YOU must or else.... but you know what I did with my husbands drinking. I said I am not comfortable when you drink. When you drink you lose control of your ability to deal with your abuse. I did say one more episode and you are out. Maybe I am doing the wrong thing but he seems to be ok. I know it's tough for him and at those times I give him extra love and attention. I scratch his back (he loves it). But I can't live with a person who drinks and their behavior is unpredictable, especially around my children.

Hey maybe his therapist could work on his control issues, until he decides to read and book and go to a new one.


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#377313 - 11/29/11 02:43 PM Re: SURVIVORS - help a girl out! [Re: Gretta]
JaapVisser Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 57
Loc: The Netherlands
From the point I see it and I am far from being a professional or that I speak for every survivor (just to make that clear). This is based on my own feelings, with other survivors with whom I was in therapy and based on things I read in numerous books.

At a certain point in your life as victim the whole control and csa thing stands far above anything in your life (relation, friendships etc). There is an urge to be normal, to be like every other person on this planet, but your past is in your way big time. As victims our manhood is feeling broken, our trust is destroyed and every reference to "how it should be" is not there. Simply said, a lot of us need to learn again how to react in things that are normal for most people. It ashamed me and that is also what other fellow therapy members said.
I felt ashamed that I failed as a good man for my girlfriend, I felt ashamed that I wasn't a strong human being who could carry to positives and negative sides of relation and that our relation was not based on equal input and effort. I think you should not underestimate what shame can do to a person. It often results in completely opposite behaviour. Shame can break you deeply.
Add to all of this the urge to somehow deal with your past and for most of us it was for a long time to completely neglect it and run away from it, and you have a recipe for a very tough relationship.

As I said in my previous post, at some point WE have to become aware of our past, about being a victim, but also about the damage we do and accept this and adapt to it. This doesn't mean that you have to take everything. If things get really out of control then you should of course always take the right steps to protect yourself.

Edit: fixed some weird grammar constructions, sorry am not a native speaker.



Edited by JaapVisser (11/29/11 02:47 PM)
_________________________
Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent.

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#377316 - 11/29/11 03:29 PM Re: SURVIVORS - help a girl out! [Re: JaapVisser]
Esposa Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 728
Loc: NJ
Thank you Jaap. I realized a little while ago that our relationship was like the last thing on his mind. I am just a punching bag or a speed bump in his self destruction.

And I see the shame - he's certainly ashamed of cheating on me, of being mean to me, of pushing me away - but that shame makes him do it more.

I like the idea of stepping away a little - taking a breather and then coming back with a fixed message of love and dedication (with the necessary armor). I write him notes every day, about how I will never abandon him, never betray him - and these seem to resonate, at least for 20 or 30 minutes until he returns to casting me out like the traitor I am.


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#377329 - 11/29/11 06:07 PM Re: SURVIVORS - help a girl out! [Re: Esposa]
Shawushka Offline


Registered: 01/05/11
Posts: 128
Loc: VA
Quote:
[...]he referred to it as SEX.[...]

Very recognizable. I had no idea for a long time, because my partner told me he had had same sex experience as a teenager. Of course I thought he maybe had kissed with another (same age) guy. Never, ever did it come to my mind that this could be a de>

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#377332 - 11/29/11 06:21 PM Re: SURVIVORS - help a girl out! [Re: Esposa]
GoodHope Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 417
How to communicate w my significant other" is on my agenda to discuss w my therapist. She has pointed out to me before (in a way that I cannot adequately explain to anyone else) how what is "normal" for those who have not experienced abuse is not for survivors. They can learn healthy ways to interact w us but trying to use what comes naturally for non abused people doesn't work. We can lament the insanity of it all but in the end, we are going to have to adapt until our men learn healthy ways to be in partnership with us . How we do that without chipping away at the essence of ourselves or damaging our wholeness is the million dollar question. It's also highly individual. I can put up w a lot if I see you working towards wholeness. But if you aren't, I can't stay. It takes so much and we have kids and we owe them t least one healthy parent. If you stay w insanity, I don't see how you can remain whole (or a reasonable facsimile of whole). I read an article about a Schizophrenic man and his wife. He was suicidal , had a hard time keeping a job , etc. but she never let him off the hook. She'd acknowledge his delimma, probably point to remedies but in the end she'd always say "but I need you to {insert responsibility here}." I want to do everything to create an environment for healing for my husband, but WE have obligations. I wish I had known about this before 3 kids, before the cheating, before....but we didn't and now there is not the luxury of selfishness (wrong word i mean the ability to only focus on yourself to heal) that i believe trauma of this kind requires. WE have to handle ALL of this TOGETHER. It's easier if we do it together. Its better dor us as a couple and a family if we do it together. A burden shared is a burden halved (Martin;-). But Supporters have to be able to say what we need. I'm fine with finding an alternate way to get through because I only care about the end result , but if there is no other way to say "I need" then I'm just gonna blurt it out as nicely as I can. But if it can't be received (for whatever reason), that is a grade A impasse.

_________________________
Wife of a survivor

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#377339 - 11/29/11 06:52 PM Re: SURVIVORS - help a girl out! [Re: Esposa]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6607
Loc: FEMA Region 1
Originally Posted By: Esposa
And his current T is a serious waste of money and time. How can you sit in therapy week after week and never talk about the abuse? And when I went to see his therapist with him once, he referred to it as SEX. IT IS NOT SEX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My god. He was a very little tiny boy.


Holy sht Esposa...this turd truly IS a waste of time and money.

In a radio interview about 5 years ago, Mike Lew likened "having 'sex with a child' to 'inviting a sandwich to lunch.'"

If you hear a guy screaming in the distance tonight...its just me re-reading this post.

_________________________
Hell needs firewood too ya know!

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#377349 - 11/29/11 07:29 PM Re: SURVIVORS - help a girl out! [Re: Esposa]
lucylives Offline


Registered: 04/07/11
Posts: 367
Oh my God, esposa. I have been reading this post and I didn't understand that it was the therapist that called it sex!

I would maybe tell my husband that I was worried about his well being working with a therapist that is so ignorant to csa and you are afraid it will do more harm than good going there.

I once went to a therapist and he had told me he was knowledgeable in sex addiction and csa. When we started to talk on our first and only v isit, after telling our story, his first words to me were "maybe you just have to accept that your husband is a sociopath or just gay" Really? I said you obviously know nothing about addiction or csa. He had the balls to tell me I just wanted a therapist who would tell me whatever I wanted to hear. I said "No, I want a therapist who knows what they are talking about" It got quite ugly. At the end, he tried to get me to set another appointment cuase he said he could help me. I seriously wanted to reach across the room and hit him over the head with a frying pan. Thanks but no thanks and I walked out.

Had I not read Mike Lew's book and all the Patrick Carnes books, I may have believed him.

There are really not alot of therapists who have a clue about CSA and/or sex addiction. I now have a fabulous therapist who is very well versed and kinda tough which is just what I need. I am grateful I didn't see the first therapist without having already read. I think I knew more than he did (actually I know I did)

Please tell your husband you are worried about him. A bad therapist can really screw with your mind and telling him that as a child he was having sex is really gonna screw him up more!


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#377350 - 11/29/11 07:29 PM Re: SURVIVORS - help a girl out! [Re: lucylives]
lucylives Offline


Registered: 04/07/11
Posts: 367
Excuse my french but what a ^&*head!


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#377352 - 11/29/11 07:37 PM Re: SURVIVORS - help a girl out! [Re: lucylives]
Shawushka Offline


Registered: 01/05/11
Posts: 128
Loc: VA
Quote:
I didn't understand that it was the therapist that called it sex!

h****** s**** I didn't get that, either! It was the therapist who said that? Well, what the previous poster said!


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#377367 - 11/29/11 09:12 PM Re: SURVIVORS - help a girl out! [Re: Shawushka]
Esposa Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 728
Loc: NJ
Yes - it was the therapist. The other quote I had from his therapist was "helping him come to terms with his bisexuality" - I like that one alot too because my husband's experience with men were only in abuse situations - so I kind of feel like getting him to accept his bisexuality is a very interesting path to CSA recovery.... call me crazy.


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#377390 - 11/30/11 03:44 AM Re: SURVIVORS - help a girl out! [Re: Esposa]
JaapVisser Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 57
Loc: The Netherlands
Oh jeez, I also didn't realise that it was the therapist who said that. I read it as if your husband had said it and unbelievable what he said about the bisexuality...

Therapists like this do more harm then good. I don't know how it works in the USA (assuming you live there), but isn't there a sort of organisational board where you can write complains to if errors are made? If I read it like this, then this therapist shouldn't be allowed to do this work and his license should be revoked in my opinion. Such a damage he is doing.

If they had said sort like things to me, I would have gone downwards big time in progress instead of up.

_________________________
Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent.

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#377403 - 11/30/11 08:28 AM Re: SURVIVORS - help a girl out! [Re: JaapVisser]
Esposa Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 728
Loc: NJ
So back to the original question - how do I encourage him to change therapists????? I don't think he will do it himself.


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#377409 - 11/30/11 08:53 AM Re: SURVIVORS - help a girl out! [Re: Esposa]
lucylives Offline


Registered: 04/07/11
Posts: 367
My God girl, that therapist is gonna do way more harm than good. I would tell your husband that from what you have read from the EXPERTS, this isn't about bisexuality and that you are really worried about this therapists and his lack of knowledge.

I found our therapists from other people in our recovery group. Read my previous post about one therapist we saw. He really is lucky I ddn't report him.


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#377412 - 11/30/11 09:22 AM Re: SURVIVORS - help a girl out! [Re: Esposa]
lucylives Offline


Registered: 04/07/11
Posts: 367
Esposa and any survvors out there....

Has anyone heard or read anything from Joe Kort? He has written alot about straight men who have sex with men. It isn't about being gay alot of the time. There is alot written about reenacting and homosexual imprinting on the internet.

btw, he is a gay man not some crazy guy who is anti-gay.

Here is a link.

http://straightguise.com/default.asp?id=1288

I hope this helps some of you the way it has helped me and my husband.

Also, I would lov it if any survivor out there would post this article on sex identity issue forum. I am sure most people have read it but there may be some poor soul suffering out there who is wondering why he is seeking sex with men when he is not gay.


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#377413 - 11/30/11 09:24 AM Re: SURVIVORS - help a girl out! [Re: lucylives]
Esposa Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 728
Loc: NJ
I really love that article.


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#377430 - 11/30/11 11:49 AM Re: SURVIVORS - help a girl out! [Re: Esposa]
Sailor John Offline


Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 310
Loc: Newfoundland & Labrador
Hi Esposa,

It is in childhood/adolsence, which is at the very period of our lives when we suffered abuse, that we should be learning about life. We should be learning to reason, learn about control (both good and bad), learn about love, learn about talking to others even in a social setting, how to talk to the other sex about different subjects as we grow into our late teens and early adulthood, including love which is an extension of marriage.

If your husband is unhappy with his therapist, he definately should get another who is well trained and experienced in Male CSA survivors and their SO's.

Because we never learned our social skills when we should have, as others have said, we have to learn it as adults. Unfortunately, people with SO's have to put up with us as we try to learn what we should have learned years ago. We were victims then and now survivors now. It is up to us to clean up the garbage that we had no part in receiving, the same as you have to clean up litter on your property which you had no part in getting on your lawn.

Good luck with everything. Keep encouraging your husband but don't push him. Unfortunately, we have no timeline for recovery. Each one of us is different.

_________________________
I will mourn the teenager I never was and strive to make that dot of light way out in the far reaches of the end of the tunnel turn into a bright sun.

WE ARE NOT VICTIMS. WE ARE THE SURVIVORS!!!

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#377432 - 11/30/11 12:37 PM Re: SURVIVORS - help a girl out! [Re: Sailor John]
Esposa Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 728
Loc: NJ
He has not said he is unhappy with his therapist. I believe he goes and continues to go because I made it a requirement post affair but pre-reveal. He says he's cool.

I gave him two other names but he has not acted on it. I just worry that more damage is being done - not that he has revealed the abuse, and he is clearly in the hands of someone who knows nothing about it.


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#377587 - 12/01/11 03:41 PM Re: SURVIVORS - help a girl out! [Re: Esposa]
herowannabe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/01/11
Posts: 386
Loc: USA
If control is a hang up of his, you might shift the perspective to what YOU need to do.

Instead of, "I want you to do this...", maybe say, "I need to move out to work on getting my bearings back. My hope is that we will do the hard work needed to repair our marriage. Part of that work includes you seeing CSA-knowledgable counselor. If you don't want to save yourself in order to save us, I understand, and am sad. But I also know that I can't make you care about what I care about, so I will move on unless you have another suggestion...."

Or something like that...

_________________________


For I know the plans I have made for you. Plans to give you a future and a hope. Jeremiah 29:11


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#377626 - 12/01/11 09:33 PM Re: SURVIVORS - help a girl out! [Re: herowannabe]
Esposa Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 728
Loc: NJ
I have that discussion in my head on occasion but I also try to be very careful not to trigger his fear of abandonment. Tip toe tip toe tip toe


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