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#374287 - 11/04/11 03:48 PM Re: Lovemaking/sex and the survivor - survivor ? [Re: hopeandtry]
hopeandtry Offline


Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 476
*I should add that I am cool with him trying to work through these things. If he was in the process of healing and still struggling with acting out with me, that is different because he is working to heal. I can handle sex with someone who is working through the process of recovery if he wants to have a healthy sex life with me. If he is not, however, it's just a cycle that is going to continue to be hurtful. All this being said, this only applies if he ONLY is acting out with me. If there are mixed feelings...if he acts out yet feels a connection with me or is showing affection or whatever, then that is different. But if he has no affection for me and is not expressing it through sex but only acting out, that is more than I can handle unless maybe he's getting help for the problem.



Edited by hopeandtry (11/04/11 04:20 PM)

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#374296 - 11/04/11 08:20 PM Re: Lovemaking/sex and the survivor - survivor ? [Re: Anniemy4sons]
Disappointed Offline


Registered: 08/11/09
Posts: 540
Loc: U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: Anniemy4sons
Dear disappointed,
If u read my previous posts you would not be so judgmental! I have dealt with my husband having unprotected sex with prostitutes, affairs, sleeping with my dead sister 15 years ago, stds and more.


Hi,
As I said, it pushed my buttons. Sorry I mistook you for one who hadn't had many challenges. But I did qualify it accordingly - mentioning many of the things you'd suffered through. I did read your previous posts, but I read many, can't keep everybody's situatin in my brain.

Anyway, as to H&T:

Sometimes, (Often?) even men not raped just want to have sex with their wives, and the female is being "used." Honestly, I don't think it's fair to be the "thought police" about sex. He might be thinking about how good the ham sandwich was at lunch, for all I know! I certainly wouldn't want to be forced into a certain line of thought, and I certainly wouldn't necessarily want to SHARE my line of thought. Sometimes a little white lie is very appropriate.

I'd be careful about those romantic notions. It's kind of like that scene in "Groundhog Day," where Bill Murray's character and Andie McDowells' character are in the restaurant eating. He asks her what kind of man she's looking for, and she says she's looking for a man who's sensitive, loving, caring, and will change poopy diapers. And Murray's characters says, "And this is a man?" or words to that effect.


_________________________
Female.

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#374298 - 11/04/11 08:40 PM Re: Lovemaking/sex and the survivor - survivor ? [Re: Disappointed]
hopeandtry Offline


Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 476
The difference there is that the man is having sex overall with his wife because he loves her. He is attracted to her, even if he isn't thinking "Oh I love you so much." What I'm talking about is a consistent pattern of acting out...ALWAYS having sex with the woman with thoughts of acting out and not love. THAT is what I have a problem with. I by no means think a man always need to be actively thinking about how much he loves his wife or even saying "I love you" during sex. I do, however, have a problem if a man is never having sex with me with feelings of love or affection, but only thoughts of his abuse. (And I do mean ONLY thoughts of his abuse.) Trust me, I do not have sex myself always gushing romantic sayings. This isn't about romance, this is about the core of what sex should be in a relationship.


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#374302 - 11/04/11 10:09 PM Re: Lovemaking/sex and the survivor - survivor ? [Re: hopeandtry]
Rowan Offline


Registered: 08/30/11
Posts: 8
Annie,

I am struggling with this issue myself. It seems very intense for my survivor and I (the sex) as of late. And I also don't know if he is trying really hard and doing as he does... anything he thinks will please me or if he is connecting with me. He is afraid of commitment and is always stressing to me that he loves me but we haven't any commitment.

And if you don't mind Annie, I'd like to ask D something....

D,
You don't have to answer if you don't want to (of course) but I was wondering... I read some of your posts. How do you feel about your friend's games? Why do you partake in them? I am absolutely not judging one way or the other. I was only wanting a view from the acting-out partners perspective. At least you know up front. That's one less question unanswered for you. But really, as a woman, what do you get out of it? I really do want to understand.

Rowan


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#374342 - 11/05/11 07:51 AM Re: Lovemaking/sex and the survivor - survivor ? [Re: Rowan]
Gretta Offline


Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 239
Annie thanks for bringing up this subject. This has been a touchy one for us too. I understand needing and wanting the closeness after " nuclear ennilation" of what we thought our life was, but it's tricky. Our bed is a crowded place these days. There is a long line of people that he cheated on me with and I have now come to find that often times depending on the position his father and other perbs are creeping into his head which is making ejaculation difficult! That was never a problem in the past. We've avoided those positions all together but it's seems forced and alot of work now when before it was effortless.

I'd rather just hold back on having sex right now but he can't get out of the old mode, " I need it, I want it" always grabbing and making little gestures. When I turn him down he feels rejected etc... If we do have sex it's good for a while but ultimately it becomes clear that something is wrong. I tell him I love him and well damn it I am still here. Just when I feel like we are getting somewhere I feel like we are back to start.

Boy this CSA stuff is not fun...just when you think your feet are on the ground steady, BAM they go out from under you. And I consider myself one of the lucky ones I know how hard my husband is trying. It still sucks.

If by acting out he is fantasizing about healthy fantasies I'm all good with that. I think that's just a part of being married for many years, heck I like to have a fantasy or two.


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#374345 - 11/05/11 09:19 AM Re: Lovemaking/sex and the survivor - survivor ? [Re: Rowan]
Disappointed Offline


Registered: 08/11/09
Posts: 540
Loc: U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: Rowan

And if you don't mind Annie, I'd like to ask D something....

D,
You don't have to answer if you don't want to (of course) but I was wondering... I read some of your posts. How do you feel about your friend's games? Why do you partake in them? I am absolutely not judging one way or the other. I was only wanting a view from the acting-out partners perspective. At least you know up front. That's one less question unanswered for you. But really, as a woman, what do you get out of it? I really do want to understand.

Rowan


Hi Rowan,
frustrated. The game is fine, I'm just not good at it.

As for why I do it... I didn't know anything about any of this when he first contacted me. He was this really good looking, successful man, and at first when we talked, he was uninteresting on the telephone but decided to wait to see what developed.as we continued to email and talk, he got more comfortable and more interesting. I had no idea about how to play the game, so he would drop hints. Never tell me, because that would spoil the dynamics of the game, but drop hints,

So, one time, only 2 months into this, we were texting, and he told me he hated "Rick." Rick's the personality he shows to the world, his front. David, the inner personality, HATED Rick. That made my brain just stop, and say, "What?." This guy has a very bad situation. Half of him hates the other half. And they talk about each other like they're totally different people. sad

Each has different ways of talking and likes different kinds of girls, and each wants to maintain the body differently. One wants long hair, the other short. One wants to shave his chest hair, the other not. However, they both like sports.

He told me some true facts, but he lied about some. So I started xhecking, and found some stuf online, bunch of his ex-s. So he caught em but culdn't keep em.

So, anyway, his treatment of me would be one week intensely into the game, then for 2 or 3 weeks, very snide to me. Over and over and i tried to learn the game better by talking to other men who liked similar things, thinking maybe it would change his pattern. It didn't.

That's when after 7 months I came to this website, and found all these other men with similar attitudes to his. Hating part of themselves, having urges that were so hard to resist... multiple personalities....

that's why I do it. I don't think of him as "acting out." Let's say you like to shop or wear makeup. What if someone told you that was "acting out"? But women loving shopping and makeup is practically part of our DNA. This is who he is. It's not an act. I'm not saying it can't change, but it's not going to in the short run for sure. He's been seeing a therapist for several years. Just changed therapists, but.... glacier movement is what describes it.

I've read thousands of posts here by the men. A common theme is in their 40s they start dealing with this, and then the suffering just gets so bad. The flashbacks, the body memories, the fear, the same sex attraction... and on and on and on. Many of the men quit working for a while. They're on a horrible rollercoaster. I'm not sure I could bear to see him go through all of that. He's worked so hard to create a pretty functional life for himself despite the CSA, I can understand why he wants to avoid the crash and burn of it all.

What do I get? well, i picked "disappointed" for a reason. But he's a good man, and I'll tell you something: I know his inner thoughts probably better than anyone. He trusts me. And slowly he shares more and more of his thoughts. When I get ONE new thought from him (he recently complained about my harsh emails to him and one other thing I did 2.5 years ago. And I've been sending him harsh emails for, oh, 2 years!), it makes me feel good.he kept this secret for 35 years, but told me! How cool.

Also, if I didn't play, if he hadn't learned to trust me, who would David have to speak with? Rick is the guy all his friends know. He hides David as best he can. So David is bottled up all the time, and even when he's "out," he puts up a good Rick mask, trying to avoid anyone knowing. Pretty sure David is the one that suffered the abuse. David needs someone to talk to, and Rick has pretty much limited that to people who play the game. I truly believe that giving David someone to talk to, is healthier than telling him he's an unacceptable, shameful person who isn't worthy of human contact.He's really just a sweet child.

I believe acceptance gives him the ability to be honest and to begin peeking out from his isolation and begin to trust. No matter what erratic thing he does, no matter how frustrated I get, he knows after I'll be there.He can't always count on me doing what he wants, but if it's something important, he can.

In the last year, he's told me a couple of things about himself, about David, that David is ashamed of, but I didn't blink. They weren't actually bad at all - my other friends do the same things! And I believe it's my acceptance that has enabled him to bare his true feelings about himself.

D.

to give him credit, we've been in a rbad recessn for 3 years.sometimes I've called him and he's given me money.


_________________________
Female.

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#374352 - 11/05/11 10:23 AM Re: Lovemaking/sex and the survivor - survivor ? [Re: Disappointed]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2590
I think for now the thing that jumps out at me that I'll comment on is the "initiating" part of things.

I think it really does depend on the individual.

For me, I usually wait for my wife to initiate, because when I initiate I have all manner of additional feelings of shame and fear that come up. Somewhere along the line for me, initiating and abuse got mixed up. Abusers initiate, so I think that's where my messed up feelings come from.

But that's not how it is with everyone. So for one situation, the wife initiating might be a boon for the husband, while for another it makes him feel powerless.


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#374353 - 11/05/11 10:49 AM Re: Lovemaking/sex and the survivor - survivor ? [Re: JustScott]
GoodHope Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 417
I've not behaved differently with the sex. It's the one thing that has consistently worked well for both of us and I don't want to fiddle with it.

In general, he physically initiates. It's been that way for 12 years. We have little jokes to indicate an interest in sex that pre-date the fallout of everything and we still use those. They got us through (as best you can) the awkwardness of trying to re-establish a relationship after a history of deception and betrayal has been unearthed.

I do think about the things that Annie mentioned, but I don't think about them a lot and I change none of my sexual behavior based on those thoughts.

I have let him know that if there is anythign that I am doing sexually that is problematic for him, to let me know.

I do see some truth in trying to desperately connect emotionally with me through sex. Weeks after I found out about the affair we did have a particularly emotional feeling encounter and I told him it felt like he was "making love to me" and he said that is what he was doing.

It was nice, and I may be weird but sex is not necessarily where I need to feel the emotional connection. I'm like Rowan in the sense that I'm not thinking during the act "I love him so much". Afterwards I do need to feel emotionally connected, and he's always done that, holding me, talking to me etc. (at least for the 5 minutes he can stay awake, LOL!).

If the sex is enjoyable for you, I say go with it. So much of this situation is crappy so I snatch and hoard the little crumbs of goodness that fall down around me. It is torturous to try to get out of my own head, but I work on it daily because it is misery to live in there. And for all our fretting and wondering and worrying, the truth is we can never know that another person is really thinking. I just try to be the kind of person that he feels like he can tell the truth to.

_________________________
Wife of a survivor

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#374372 - 11/05/11 03:51 PM Re: Lovemaking/sex and the survivor - survivor ? [Re: GoodHope]
hopeandtry Offline


Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 476
@Eldee, I wish I could have just gone with it, but though I enjoyed it, sex made him freak out and caused our last (and final) split. Now I wish I had held off...even if doing so hadn't "saved" us, I wouldn't have had to watch him fall apart. It kills me what he went through and what I went through as a result. Anyway, it would just be hard for me to enjoy something I knew was hurting him.

Also, just to comment on what some others have said, when I refer to "acting out" I don't mean sex in itself (we all have sex for reasons other than romantic ones at times I think), but "acting out" in terms of reenacting his abuse with me. I don't want to have sex with him if he's doing it to disconnect to the abuse, if that makes sense.


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#374373 - 11/05/11 03:52 PM Re: Lovemaking/sex and the survivor - survivor ? [Re: hopeandtry]
hopeandtry Offline


Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 476
P.S. I need to not read this thread for awhile...it's really triggering for me. Just thought I'd say that in case anyone posts anything directed to me. It might be awhile before I answer, if I answer at all.


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