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#373135 - 10/22/11 08:58 PM Trusting the Ignorant
earlybird Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 1007
Loc: WA USA
I’ve been silently pondering on this for some time now and would like your opinions.

When I talk with a person or group about the difficulties I have with certain ASA issues (oh, let’s say for instance- my lack of trust in authority but it could be anything really) and they either don’t respond or at least not in a way that I’m able to perceive as supportive, whose fault is it – mine or theirs?

My knee jerk reaction is to shift this blame onto those I perceive as not allowing me room to breathe or to freely and safely express myself. But what two years at MS has taught me is that I’m fully to blame for this awkward moment of misunderstandings between those who "know" of a certain type of injury and those who do not. (How can I expect a fish to understand or empathize with how it feels to drowned)

With this new understanding I’m more fully aware of my responsibility in deciding to whom and when to trust or at least take a risk in the ability of the listener/s to empathize when they have no real framework to truly understand. The wisdom MaleSurvivor has provided me with is that to lay myself fully exposed with my feelings, belief’s and thoughts bare (no matter how accurate or misguided) will only server to embarrass and shame myself and the onlooker as well.

ASA men I’d like to know, what has been your experience?

_________________________
Balanced (My goal)

There is symmetry
In self-reflection
Life exemplified
Grace personified

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#373143 - 10/22/11 11:02 PM Re: Trusting the Ignorant [Re: earlybird]
Darkheart Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 331
Loc: Illinois
At this stage of my recovery, I am more empathic ans tend to place blame where it belongs. But, I too get that knee jerk reaction ....just rarely have the balls to say or do something about it...

_________________________
My Story...

http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthr...8711#Post348711

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#373256 - 10/24/11 06:11 PM Re: Trusting the Ignorant [Re: Darkheart]
Tyr Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/05/11
Posts: 180
remember it took us a while sometimes to get to where we are. and the world does -not- necessarily see things in kind or ideal terms. i urge caution as there are many who are rapist collaborators and dont know it. they are the ones who will think the man who raped you is hot. or that after a month you should be over it. people dont want to deal with suffereing and so its best to put on a smile and trust a very tight inner circle if you can. good luck

_________________________
Once you hear the details of victory, it is hard to distinguish it from a defeat.

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#373286 - 10/25/11 12:06 AM Re: Trusting the Ignorant [Re: Tyr]
earlybird Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 1007
Loc: WA USA
Tyr,

I’ve read and reread, stalled for a few hours and then read your words again. I truly appreciate your caution to “trust….. a very tight inner circle” for I’ve made that mistake, especially here believing that because I’m with brothers in a mutual struggle that I’m among trusted friends. I won’t so easily be deceived on this point again.

Tyr, I’m struggling to understand your definition of a “rapist collaborator” and was hoping you might give me more insight on this thought. I’m always interested in a different perspective especially those that I don’t have a common concept of. It is from listening to those who differ in their point of view that I best grow and learn and define my understandings and therefor - beliefs. Thank you for sharing, Earlybird




Edited by earlybird (10/25/11 12:08 AM)
_________________________
Balanced (My goal)

There is symmetry
In self-reflection
Life exemplified
Grace personified

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#373418 - 10/26/11 12:33 PM Re: Trusting the Ignorant [Re: earlybird]
Tyr Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/05/11
Posts: 180
read Alice Vachs book "Sex Crimes" it is an oldie. but a classic.

rapist collaborators are the people that want their rape victims to claw and fight every step ofthe way. refuse to think of rapists as anyone other than the boogey man in the bushes which we knowis not true over 80 percent of the time. they want their victims pretty but not too pretty, strong but not too strong, and well spoken and educated. otherwise they dont beleive a rape occurred or even empathize with the rapist and help him get free or avoid prosecution. theyre out there guys, lots of em. SORRY

_________________________
Once you hear the details of victory, it is hard to distinguish it from a defeat.

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#373421 - 10/26/11 12:37 PM Re: Trusting the Ignorant [Re: Tyr]
Tyr Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/05/11
Posts: 180
read this for more info on rapist colloborators

http://www.vachss.com/guest_dispatches/alice_vachss.html

_________________________
Once you hear the details of victory, it is hard to distinguish it from a defeat.

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#373422 - 10/26/11 12:46 PM Re: Trusting the Ignorant [Re: Tyr]
Tyr Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/05/11
Posts: 180
_________________________
Once you hear the details of victory, it is hard to distinguish it from a defeat.

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#373436 - 10/26/11 05:33 PM Re: Trusting the Ignorant [Re: Tyr]
earlybird Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 1007
Loc: WA USA
Tyr,

Thanks for the reply to my query and especially for the links you posted in order to give me some background understanding to the term “rapist collaborators”. I have to agree that there is a real bias against many, if not most, raped individuals by society and people living within those societies. In fact even both of these articles showed a bias against adult rape victims. Nowhere in either article was male rape victims recognized. I see this as ignorance on the writer’s part not as them being “rapist collaborators” for to me they were supporting the ignorant thinking that only women can be raped were they not?

I think that both types of people exist (ignorant or uncaring people or the much worse person, rape collaborators) but I’m wondering, isn’t it important not lump both types of people and their thinking into the same category. Tyr, I’m not suggesting this is what you are doing just clarifying that my post was referring to the individuals and groups (here and elsewhere) that remain ignorant by either intent or non-intent. As to the rapist collaborator you speak of - he/she/them can all go to hell.

_________________________
Balanced (My goal)

There is symmetry
In self-reflection
Life exemplified
Grace personified

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#373438 - 10/26/11 05:55 PM Re: Trusting the Ignorant [Re: earlybird]
Tyr Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/05/11
Posts: 180
the articles were from 1993. Ms. vachs is an amazing professional. if you re read it, she does not exclude men. but yes the focus is more on women, it was 1993 after all. but if you focus on that you are at risk of missing the point.

_________________________
Once you hear the details of victory, it is hard to distinguish it from a defeat.

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#378798 - 12/09/11 07:57 AM Re: Trusting the Ignorant [Re: Tyr]
Tyr Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/05/11
Posts: 180
it takes courage to trust and risk is ok in small healthy portions guys. but the world is not quite yet prepared to see adult men so vulnerable and it sucks. we are where female victims were 30 or 40 yr ago ....

_________________________
Once you hear the details of victory, it is hard to distinguish it from a defeat.

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#379099 - 12/12/11 01:37 AM Re: Trusting the Ignorant [Re: Tyr]
TheTwoOfUs Offline


Registered: 11/03/11
Posts: 149
Loc: USA
The world isn't ready to see adult men so vulnerable, because they are also not ready to deal with the consequences of accepting what that means.

Basically, I agree with you - we are right now at that point that females were at with this 30yrs ago - though for different reasons...

_________________________
Matthew

Adapt. Overcome. Survive.

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#379164 - 12/12/11 06:04 PM Re: Trusting the Ignorant [Re: TheTwoOfUs]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1443
Tyr, Early Bird, Dark Heart, and the Two of You -

I just wanted to express my support. It is difficult but you DO have some brothers here who stand with you. I've suffered both CSA and ASA - they were very different experiences. I know how isolating the pain can be.

_________________________
Eirik




Click my pic to see why I'm here

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#379503 - 12/14/11 10:08 PM Re: Trusting the Ignorant [Re: Chase Eric]
Tyr Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/05/11
Posts: 180
thanks Chase E

_________________________
Once you hear the details of victory, it is hard to distinguish it from a defeat.

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#379523 - 12/14/11 11:54 PM Re: Trusting the Ignorant [Re: Tyr]
earlybird Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 1007
Loc: WA USA
Hello everyone,

I still read and follow the ASA threads (nothing else) but I rarely comment, anymore. As respectfully as I can I’d like to say I started this particular thread to highlight why I’ve grown distant and silent but that reason has been completely missed.

It is not the fault of any of you who have tried to connect with this thread (and possibly me) for I’m forced to speak in code and that frustrates me to no end for its a reminder of how the world coerces ASA men to speak, not as honest men but rather cowed boys. So my fellow survivors this thread is completely off track from my original meaning and all I can say is I’m not allowed to redirect it back towards its intended course. (I’ve grown bitter over this unresolved issue) Earl

_________________________
Balanced (My goal)

There is symmetry
In self-reflection
Life exemplified
Grace personified

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#379809 - 12/17/11 02:45 AM Re: Trusting the Ignorant [Re: earlybird]
Tyr Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/05/11
Posts: 180
welli am not going to speak in code. point blank it might be very interesting that you dont take orders well because of authority issues from a rape. but regrettably the world doesn't know how to express its care yet. im worried if you put yourself out there, you might get a not comfortable awakening and wondering why aren't they supportive. the majority of the world is sadly a selfish world= your friends here care. i care. but the world doesnt know what to do withus yet

_________________________
Once you hear the details of victory, it is hard to distinguish it from a defeat.

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#379829 - 12/17/11 09:37 AM Re: Trusting the Ignorant [Re: Tyr]
earlybird Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 1007
Loc: WA USA
Okay, I agree code sucks and too easily sends things off into the imaginations of well-meaning others while giving shelter to those who don’t deserve it.

I keep reading that “the world” doesn’t understand. That “the world” won’t listen to us. That “the world” refuses to recognize and validate us.

All of which is true there’s no argument from me on this observation but what MS has shown me - it’s not just “the world” that is proving to be non-understanding, deaf and blind.




Edited by earlybird (12/17/11 09:38 AM)
_________________________
Balanced (My goal)

There is symmetry
In self-reflection
Life exemplified
Grace personified

Top
#379835 - 12/17/11 10:59 AM Re: Trusting the Ignorant [Re: earlybird]
KMCINVA Offline
Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1745
Trust is hard when you feel no one is listening or cares. I know how it feels, it is hard and you can feel isolated. I have found support here, in support group, a small group of people who were friends and strangers who are now like family and my T. I want to tell my brother but fear a reaction similar to what I have experienced from other family members. But I believe he will have compassion and understand. It takes a leap of faith. I have to admit I never understood the effects of CSA, they are far more devastating than I ever imagined. It robs you of trust, attachment, feeling worthy and valued, allows you to be taken advantaged and hurt by others and when disclosed it exposes you to either acceptance or taunts from those who live in ignorance and self opinion. They are blinded by their own need not to face the realities of the world, but to band together to destroy a fragile and wounded individual. But be brave, for you deserve more and in time you will find the people who value you and will trust you and open their hearts to what you have endured and buried for so long. These people are your future, you cannot build a life with those that are ignorant, because you never know when they will turn.

Everyone here understands as do the supporters who have taken time, exposed their pain to understand what a survivor endured as a child or adult of being sexually abused.



Edited by KMCINVA (12/17/11 11:23 AM)

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#379883 - 12/17/11 08:24 PM Re: Trusting the Ignorant [Re: KMCINVA]
earlybird Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 1007
Loc: WA USA
Today, I’ve been having a side conversation by PM with one of the guys here concerning this thread or maybe it would be better said, my perspective being expressed. Not a debate as to if I’m justified in my frustration and anger over what this thread is really about but whether the current outcome is what I’m after or what any of us need. Is what I’m doing and saying helpful for me or anyone? (I’m adding some of my own interpretation to the conversation)

It is a good thing when a brother reaches out, not in judgment or anger and asks their companion to “think”. (Something I can take a lesson in from time to time)

It is important for me to let this go and refocus my efforts and emotions on to what is the real issue-sexual assault of all kinds.

Whether I was right or wrong is of little importance compared to the work laid out before me and others here. So if you are willing help me to talk about something different and constructive. This throwing stones because I’m pissed isn’t working out so well.

_________________________
Balanced (My goal)

There is symmetry
In self-reflection
Life exemplified
Grace personified

Top
#379898 - 12/17/11 10:49 PM Re: Trusting the Ignorant [Re: earlybird]
Darkheart Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 331
Loc: Illinois
You know I'm willing to help you bro ...

_________________________
My Story...

http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthr...8711#Post348711

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#379913 - 12/18/11 07:36 AM Re: Trusting the Ignorant [Re: Tyr]
nevragan Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 907
Loc: NC
Hey Tyr,
I don't want to hijack your forum as I really don't belong here but felt I just wanted to offer words of support to all of you here. In a way I think all of us have issues with authority if we have been sexually abused or even if it's other forms of abuse also. I do echo what you say about the world not knowing how to deal with any of it. People most generally do not want to deal with anything that might make them uncomfortable. It's like it's still a taboo subject for many. Very much so the world is all about themselves which is sad. I just hope that one day all of us survivors are accepted with open arms no matter what form of sexual abuse we endured. Again, I don't mean to hijack your forum. You guys have my support and I wish you well in you healing journey.


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