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#372282 - 10/13/11 06:09 AM CSA Compounded with bullying
WriterKeith Online   embarrased
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Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 938
Loc: southern California
Just wondering, did anyone else here suffer bullying on top of sexual or physical abuse? I had the sexual abuse/physical torture thing happening at home, and was severely bullied at school daily from grades 7-12.

Am wondering what our similarities are, as it is helpful in understanding the complex mix of the two. Also wondering if and how you found a way to work beyond it as an adult.

Thanks,
Keith smile

_________________________
"A burned bridge can be a gift; it prevents us from returning to a place we should have never been."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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#372288 - 10/13/11 08:26 AM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: WriterKeith]
kb8715 Offline
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Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 808
Wierd thing for me Keith is that I worked so hard to always be well liked and popular. Best way I can explain it to everyone is I wanted to hide in a crowd.

Socially I wanted to over-achieve and it has to be an effect of the csa. And then right in the croud I could isolate and diassociate. So yeah I was a class officer, editor on school paper, later president of a large Fraternity and trying to figure out WTF happened to me between 10-12.

Hey WK, always good to touch base. You are one of the class acts in this joint.

I did work on that confrontation letter for you as promised. My 3rd draft for you goes like this:

DEAR PERP, EAT SHIT AND DIE.

Sound about right to you?

_________________________
"You can get far in life by pushing except through a door marked PULL...." Profile quote in my oldest son's senior year HS Yearbook.

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#372297 - 10/13/11 10:41 AM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: kb8715]
Castle Offline


Registered: 10/03/09
Posts: 727
Loc: NJ
WK,

I would say I put up with a bunch of stuff I shouldnt have, and was "bullied" some, by "friends" just to belong to a group. to be liked and in a group was more important to me, than a few bruises or pokes of fun or whatever....retrospect is a bitch.

always reminds me of the movie "thinner"..In which the lead charector has a hex on him, placed by sme gypsy...he is a lawyer and has helped shaddy people, including Je Montagnia sp?, who is a gangster in this movie who comes to help. He has a underling surveil the gypsies ad he is found dead, the next day...and Joe says "he might have been a mook, but he was my mook"....I really get that and have felt that...I was the mook that nobody else could fuck with, but internally it was different.

Im sorry you suffered so much hurt.

H

_________________________

My posts can self destruct at any time..read them while you can.

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#372303 - 10/13/11 12:13 PM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: Castle]
Jim1961 Offline
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Registered: 03/10/09
Posts: 1122
Loc: Pa, but likely traveling...
Oh yes, bullied mercilessly from 5th to 8th grade. By 9th grade I was so much a drug head, and into extreme stuff that I was left alone. I wore a leather motorcycle jacket, had long hair, but was pretty quiet (a nice freak lol).

But I also never went to a school dance, sporting event or the prom. I was scared of anyone outside of my drug "crowd" (appropriately labeled as freaks back then, lol).

Jim

_________________________
Loneliness is a power that we possess to give or take away forever. -Yes, Starship Trooper

My Story

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#372304 - 10/13/11 12:27 PM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: Castle]
Anthony39 Offline
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Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 345
Loc: Montreal, Canada
I had to think about that one.
I was a strange kid if i look back. Somewhat crazy . I was bigger than other kids in my class so for the most part they left me alone.
What friends I had, I was so busy trying to belong that I got lost in there.
I guess i didn't get bullied, i just bullied myself. Honestly I think I finally started doing things for myself recently. I still feel strongly about belonging about being liked by others, but i know it has to start with me.
I hope this helped
cheers

_________________________
Look up and not down; look forward and not back; look out and not in; and lend a hand.
E. E. Hale


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM213aMKTHg

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#372307 - 10/13/11 01:06 PM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: WriterKeith]
cris40ky Offline
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Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 188
Loc: KY, US
Kieth,

I was horribly bullied at school off and on till I went to the boarding school where I met Fr. Feel-me-up.

Being physically abused at home before I was old enough to go to school. Then getting an "out" of that environment to go to school only to have my feelings of worthlessness reinforced there...

I don't really know how I survived that. But I did; enough to get here.

Being bullied and teased drove home that there was something wrong with me. I deserved to be mistreated and shouldn't expect anything else. And those teachers or authority figures chose not to help. So for sure something was wrong with me.

But there was a core belief deep inside that if I could just get through it, day by day, someday things would be better. Maybe when I was adult and had the power. I also turned to god. The world is all screwed up, but if I could please god like I tried to please everyone else, at least he would take me to heaven.

I still have a lot of that shame inside. But it is getting better. As I comfort that little boy and tell him we WAS worthy of love, my words are becoming less hollow sounding to him.


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#372309 - 10/13/11 01:22 PM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: cris40ky]
Magellan Offline
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Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1392
Loc: California
Bullied from 1 - 3rd grade here by much of my class. I begged for help but my parents did nothing.

I, also, wonder how this has flavored my ability to be close to people (on top of CSA affects). Angry that therapists don't seem to take this into consideration, that I'm not just a CSA survivor, but also a survivor of school bullying.

I waiver on hope, it comes and goes - how the hell can I recover from this?

But simply knowing there are others out there who suffered like I did helps tremendously.

Thanks for starting this topic, Keith. I want to see what is discovered here.

D

_________________________
It's a heroes journey, and you are the hero.

Loving Kindness Meditation will dramatically improve your spirits; give it a try for just 3 days: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz7cpV7ERsM

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#372317 - 10/13/11 03:49 PM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: Magellan]
Marinan Offline
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Registered: 07/03/07
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Bullied from Kindergarden to 11th grade.


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#372677 - 10/17/11 08:43 PM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: Marinan]
pufferfish Online   embarrased
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Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6818
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Bullying a severe problem in schools

Here are some good ideas with regard to bullying in schools:

Included here is a video presentation:

http://www.wrcbtv.com/story/15714310/chickamauga-schools-take-proactive-stance-on-bullying

KARMA = stands for Kids Against Ridicule, Meanness and Aggression

If you watch carefully, I think you will see some kids who have experienced csa and who are terrified to admit it.

The vid. identifies the type of bullying I was subjected to: "exclusion".

Puffer







Edited by pufferfish (10/17/11 08:58 PM)

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#373947 - 11/01/11 01:39 AM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: kb8715]
WriterKeith Online   embarrased
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Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 938
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Man, so sorry to be so late responding here....

Yes, I like the new draft of the letter. ROFL.....will copy and mail immediately. In fact, I think I'll frame it.

Always good to hear from you, you're such a help. Is that a new pic? Did you get a a nose job? wink

_________________________
"A burned bridge can be a gift; it prevents us from returning to a place we should have never been."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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#373948 - 11/01/11 01:42 AM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: cris40ky]
WriterKeith Online   embarrased
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I appreciate you talking about that....more than you'll know. At the time, did you feel like God showed up and rescued you, or did you feel like he didn't?

_________________________
"A burned bridge can be a gift; it prevents us from returning to a place we should have never been."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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#373949 - 11/01/11 01:44 AM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: Marinan]
WriterKeith Online   embarrased
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Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 938
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Marinan, care to tell us anything about it? Only recently did it occur to me that others may have the same compounded issues I deal with (sexual abuse AND having been bullied).

_________________________
"A burned bridge can be a gift; it prevents us from returning to a place we should have never been."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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#373950 - 11/01/11 01:45 AM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: pufferfish]
WriterKeith Online   embarrased
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Registered: 12/30/10
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You're right, it's powerful.

_________________________
"A burned bridge can be a gift; it prevents us from returning to a place we should have never been."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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#373951 - 11/01/11 01:49 AM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: WriterKeith]
WriterKeith Online   embarrased
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Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 938
Loc: southern California
Guys, your input is helpful to those of us whose CSA was compounded and reinforced by bullying from others.

_________________________
"A burned bridge can be a gift; it prevents us from returning to a place we should have never been."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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#373969 - 11/01/11 11:01 AM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: WriterKeith]
cris40ky Offline
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Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 188
Loc: KY, US
Keith,

God and me is a twisted tale. Not just because of the abuse from a priest. I am now comfortably an atheist. I say comfortably because with my faith, I worked long and hard to separate the influences from the abuse and my personal experience of "God". I am confident and at peace with my atheism as a tested truth for me.

But to answer your question, at the time, I felt god as a tangible, exterior presence in my life. A source of unconditional love no matter what the people in my life put me through. God did not change their behavior or my circumstances. But he comforted me. And as a catholic, religious practices like the rosary and the Breviary (sp??) gave my mind structured focus to step away from the daily pain. Religious practice gave me hope that all the world wasn't fucked up. And there was something out there that loved me.

Chris


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#374033 - 11/02/11 12:23 AM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: cris40ky]
WriterKeith Online   embarrased
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Registered: 12/30/10
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Chris,
Thanks for talking about that. You put it very well.

One of the things on my mind is, as my sister and I were dragged by our father next door every Saturday to be tortured and molested, my sister tried to comfort me. Being hauled on the way over to my perp father's f'd up friend's home, she'd repeatedly tell me to pray to Jesus to come and save us. He never did.

It's got me thinking of the many, many others who were not helped in their greatest moment of need, from the Jews to missionaries who were led to their deaths while praying for help.

_________________________
"A burned bridge can be a gift; it prevents us from returning to a place we should have never been."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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#374035 - 11/02/11 12:57 AM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: WriterKeith]
pufferfish Online   embarrased
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Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6818
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: WriterKeith

It's got me thinking of the many, many others who were not helped in their greatest moment of need, from the Jews to missionaries who were led to their deaths while praying for help.


Maybe they were delivered to a different and better place.

Maybe if I hadn't endured hell as a child, I would be an arrogant sob now and ready for hell later.

Puffer


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#374037 - 11/02/11 01:20 AM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: pufferfish]
whome Offline
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Registered: 05/07/11
Posts: 1734
Loc: Johannesburg South Africa
I used to pray the Same Keith, Lord Why me, why do I have to endure all this pain and suffering.
Now here we are years later, and I finally know why it is that this happened. I am here to set up a group to help other men. I have the character and the personality to be able to help. For me a different life path would have been great, But God had other plans. I remember a verse that says, "and all things happen for good" Its Romans 8:28 I Think.
I would read this and go yeah sure, what the hell good will come of this, and well here I am, terrorising my wife and doing crazy things, but I am here alive and getting better.
I believe that we are all born with a purpose, and all have something to fulfil in this life, so we have to make the best of it, or else whats it all about.
This life cant be all that its about, otherwise it has been a really crappy one for a lot of us.

Heal well brothers
Martin

_________________________
Matrix Men South Africa
Survivors Supporting Each other
Matrix Men Blog

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#374076 - 11/02/11 01:08 PM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: whome]
WriterKeith Online   embarrased
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Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 938
Loc: southern California
It's an interesting study in sociology, for sure, although I may have hijacked my own thread. LOL

Back on topic, I've come to recognize the significant impact of the trauma of intensive bullying experience (PTSD) layered over CSA.

_________________________
"A burned bridge can be a gift; it prevents us from returning to a place we should have never been."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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#374082 - 11/02/11 01:44 PM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: WriterKeith]
dark empathy Offline
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Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 1938
Loc: durham, north england
This is a rather hard question for me to answer objectively, sinse in my case separating bullying from Sa is near impossible.
From when I was eleven it was generally a slippery slope, starting with the odd bruise and some name calling, to the point of what was virtually gang rape and extreme s/xual humiliation, like having my trousers removed in front of a crowd of people,k being forced to mastervate and having the result slapped in my face.

It got to the point that I literally had no perception of time whatsoever and would do anything to avoid going to school, and once at school anything to avoid breaks, ---- I even felt glad when a teacher gave the entire class a detention at lunch (something that happened worryingly often in my school), or over exam periods.

The odd thing to mention now, is how difficult it was for me to mention this to anyone sinse I held two completely contradictory beliefss, that my brother, who was at a different school and talked constantly about the great time and great friends he had, was going through the same thing, thus meaning it was my failing, and that I was entirely and completely alone.

When i was 15, my parents eventually got me to admit to some of the physical violence and name calling, and I was taken out of school temporarily, though that was two months before I had to leave anyway, and they stil didn't know about the more extreme stuff.

The Joke? The school authorities attempted to sue them for truent, these same school authorities that literally denied anything was wrong because the school was on the closure list, and even gave me severe tellings off and such over what happened on some occasions, like the occasion I punched a girl in the chest while she was trying to do something unpleasant.

I moved school when I was 16 to do my A-levels, and things worked out reasonably well just because nothing bad really happened, but I stil never felt part of a group and indeed don't think I ever will. I'm an outsider, that's the end of it and the truth, and i have an inherent misstrust of any group of people.

This is also why crude humour and s/xual jokes are something I stil find difficult to cope with, in fact sometimes I actually hate my own libido.

Personally, I'm of the opinion a lot of bullying and indeed a lot of the bad stuff that happened to me would've been stopped if I'd just gone to a school where people actually wanted! to learn.

I'm really of the opinion that a national corriculum, and forcing alsorts of kids who probably don't even want to be there into a building together and trying to teach them all the same thing is a recipe for social isolation and cruelty.

If kids want to leave school at 13, let them go and do something else, like learn a trade or get an apprentice ship, but get them out of the way of people who actually want! to studdy.

I'm even more disturbed at the moment by the education studies that are talking about boys doing less interlectual things than girls, and giving boys stupid games to play rather than material to actually challenge their brains, it just seems another form of sexism to me.


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#374122 - 11/02/11 11:50 PM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: WriterKeith]
pufferfish Online   embarrased
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Registered: 02/26/08
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Originally Posted By: WriterKeith
Just wondering, did anyone else here suffer bullying on top of sexual or physical abuse? I had the sexual abuse/physical torture thing happening at home, and was severely bullied at school daily from grades 7-12.

Am wondering what our similarities are, as it is helpful in understanding the complex mix of the two. Also wondering if and how you found a way to work beyond it as an adult.

Thanks,
Keith smile


I was excluded from having friends, and in junior high school (now called middle school), I was marginalized socially. I guess that's a form of bullying.

It established me as being a loner. I'm still living with that. It's a difficult thing to overcome.

Puffer


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#374124 - 11/03/11 12:43 AM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: dark empathy]
WriterKeith Online   embarrased
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Registered: 12/30/10
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DE,
There's a lot there to digest. You've uncovered a deeper layer in the discussion and I find it very helpful in my situation as well.

I don't know why this has never come up in my therapy experiences. The 2 issues directly feed each other, and in cases like yours and mine, it seems important to sort out these 2 major traumas in order to manage their impressions on us. What are your thoughts?

_________________________
"A burned bridge can be a gift; it prevents us from returning to a place we should have never been."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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#374125 - 11/03/11 12:46 AM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: pufferfish]
WriterKeith Online   embarrased
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Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 938
Loc: southern California
Puffer,
I am glad you shared that. All this time, and I thought it was just me.

_________________________
"A burned bridge can be a gift; it prevents us from returning to a place we should have never been."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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#374126 - 11/03/11 12:49 AM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: Magellan]
WriterKeith Online   embarrased
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Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 938
Loc: southern California
"I, also, wonder how this has flavored my ability to be close to people (on top of CSA affects). Angry that therapists don't seem to take this into consideration, that I'm not just a CSA survivor, but also a survivor of school bullying."


You said it, D. I thought I was alone on this, but evidently it desperately needs to be addressed by those in the profession.

_________________________
"A burned bridge can be a gift; it prevents us from returning to a place we should have never been."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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#374133 - 11/03/11 05:12 AM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: WriterKeith]
dark empathy Offline
Member
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Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 1938
Loc: durham, north england
Hi Kieth.

As I said for me, separating bullying from abuse isn't really possible, sinse the bullying was! abuse, or at least became so gradually.

There is no single moment or memory I can point to and say "that was too far" sinse it really was a case of something that just increased over the three years from 12-15, I didn't even realize myself until suddenly when i was 13 or so I'd actually start shaking when walking past a particular door or find myself avoiding situations like the changing rooms at P.E.

I remember how hard admiting to the word "bullying" truly was, even the sound of the word was actually wrong to me for some reason, and admitting any of the other stuff that happened was something I didn't even want to considder. Kids are always told "go and tell someone" as regards bullying advice, yet the worse the bullying is, the more personal, and the closer to literal abuse, the more alone a person is and the harder talking about it becomes.

One difference certainly in my case, betwene the sa I experienced and that experienced by people who were abused by family members or parents, is that for me there was no ambiguity at all. it was unashamedly, unreservedly bad, there are no ambiguities about my relationship to an abuser sinse I didn't have one, what happened to me ws public, casual, and basically happened because the people involved didn't have anything better to do.

By the same tocan though, that probably makes fear and disgust a very central thing. I learnt very quickly that if anyone at school spotted I had an e---tion bad stuff would happen, and that s/xual jokes basically lead to problems, one reason i really dislike anything to do with s/x now, even the word itself and find physical contact so difficult.


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#374202 - 11/03/11 09:10 PM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: WriterKeith]
Vadrian Offline


Registered: 09/10/11
Posts: 111
Loc: Pacific
.......




Edited by Vadrian (11/09/11 09:14 PM)

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#374206 - 11/03/11 09:41 PM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: whome]
Incognito Offline


Registered: 04/17/11
Posts: 105
Originally Posted By: whome
I used to pray the Same Keith, Lord Why me, why do I have to endure all this pain and suffering.
Now here we are years later, and I finally know why it is that this happened. I am here to set up a group to help other men. I have the character and the personality to be able to help. For me a different life path would have been great, But God had other plans. I remember a verse that says, "and all things happen for good" Its Romans 8:28 I Think.
I would read this and go yeah sure, what the hell good will come of this, and well here I am, terrorising my wife and doing crazy things, but I am here alive and getting better.
I believe that we are all born with a purpose, and all have something to fulfil in this life, so we have to make the best of it, or else whats it all about.
This life cant be all that its about, otherwise it has been a really crappy one for a lot of us.

Heal well brothers
Martin


Martin,

I have gone back and forth with this view point numerous times and rarely do I stand with a certain belief. A part of me feels that if a God (or an "entity") allowed something like this to happen, then he deserves no respect or given any attention. If a parent allows their kid to be abused, are they being a good parent or teaching their kid a lesson? A higher power shouldn't be granted that authority. But on the flip side, he did send his son to die on a cross.

I did share my story a few years ago with a close friend at the time who was going through a really rough time. We rarely speak but I will always remember the letter she wrote me a few days afterwards telling me how she appreciated me talking to her about what had happened, and allowing her to tell me everything that had happened to her. It's times like that I wonder if what happened had a different purpose than some pedophile taking advantage of an 8-year-old.

On to the original question: I wasn't bullied until 8th grade, when the effects started to settled in. I didn't respect myself as I should have, and thought if I didn't respect myself, why should others? Growing up, I was always the skinniest and weakest kid but I was competitive and worked hard, so I could make friends with fellow athletes. It was the druggies/drinkers/frequently suspended kids that would start things with me because of my size. Ten-years-ago I began to lift weights to change things and now sport a much different physique.

People can sense weakness in others and that's why CSA victims are often bullied and ridiculed. They are easy targets because they are beaten down from the more important battle they are dealing with.

_________________________
"If you're willing to carry the weight, feel the strain, push past the pain, and give more of yourself than others expect of you, the world is yours." - Dave Tate

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#374294 - 11/04/11 07:12 PM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: Incognito]
WriterKeith Online   embarrased
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Loc: southern California
Originally Posted By: Incognito
[quote=whome]I People can sense weakness in others and that's why CSA victims are often bullied and ridiculed. They are easy targets because they are beaten down from the more important battle they are dealing with.


You just summed up what I've been trying to capture in my thoughts. I would say "vulnerability" instead of "weakness" because I believe we all had to muster tremendous inner strength to survive what we have. Bullies would collapse after a few hours in our shoes.

_________________________
"A burned bridge can be a gift; it prevents us from returning to a place we should have never been."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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#374323 - 11/05/11 12:15 AM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: WriterKeith]
Vadrian Offline


Registered: 09/10/11
Posts: 111
Loc: Pacific
Of course, the bullies do have their own issues; they were bullied severely themselves, likely at home, to develop their patterns. I watched this happen with my own abuser/non-brother, who channeled the abuse from our parents by taking it out on other people. This doesn't excuse anyone, but it isn't some natural phenomena that young children would target someone who was vulnerable and destroy them.


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#374326 - 11/05/11 12:40 AM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: Vadrian]
cris40ky Offline
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Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 188
Loc: KY, US
Vadrian & Kieth,

you sure are stating it clearly. For whatever reason, the bullies were trying to destroy us.

I've got the scars to prove it, but pppffffffft! I'm still here smile


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#374327 - 11/05/11 01:11 AM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: cris40ky]
Vadrian Offline


Registered: 09/10/11
Posts: 111
Loc: Pacific
Yes, trying to destroy... Everyone deserves a tolerant environment where, regardless if they are vulnerable or shy or sad, they are still given the rights to privacy and dignity, peace.



Edited by Vadrian (11/09/11 09:14 PM)

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#374362 - 11/05/11 11:41 AM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: WriterKeith]
mickeyg1375 Offline


Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas, USA
WK,
On top of being abused, I was small, I moved around a lot, so I was always the new kid, and I had no father to teach me to defend myself, so I was relentlessly bullied from kindergarten until probably 9th grade.
My feelings of worthlessness didn't originate with my abuse, they were only confirmed and compounded. I felt too alone and miniscule to fight back, so I internalized all of my anger. Luckily when that anger came out, it usually was directed at inanimate objects.
I fell in with the stoner crowd, who were usually my sisters friends because I really didn't have any of my own. It was either that, or my moms latest alcoholic boyfriend. One of which taught me to drink heavily. I guess they all thought it was cool to get the little guy messed up.
It wasn't until my mid 20s that I learned how to assimilate into society, and my mid 30s that I began to learn about true self worth and relationships. Now, here I am at 42, and I am just getting to the root causes of everything, and I feel like I am still dealing with the lost years, and living from behind, if that makes any sense. Now I just hope that my continued efforts can make the rest of my life the best years yet.


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#374391 - 11/05/11 08:20 PM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: mickeyg1375]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 1938
Loc: durham, north england
I'm afraid I'm neither convinced of the cowards or destructive impulses, not in my case. quite often whether stuff happened with me or not simply depended upon how busy people were. I used to hope there was something on tv people would start talking about sinse that would keep them from doing stuff to me.

I don't think the vast majority were even malicious, a couple were, like the boy who regularly gave me bruises and two of the girls involved in the most serious humiliation, but most were just along for the the ride. If people were chucking things at me they'd join in, because it was what their crowd was doing, nothing more.

No wonder I hate groups and always feel isolated now.

I don't think they even realized how hurtful it was, it was just something to do.

At one point I considdered taking a calving knife to school, stabbing some of the worst offenders involved then myself, just to make them feel what I felt (luckily this wasn't something I ever did, though i used to have dreams about it frequently).

There is a passage in the screwtape letters by c lewis which says any evil, any act of violence or aggression can be made acceptable if it is made to appear humourus, this absolutely describes what happened to me.

I'd be willing to bet those involved don't even remember what they did, or at most just say "it was just a bit of fun" Indeed the way the teachers completely ignored this stuff and even contributed by sticking me and a bunch of other kids somewhere without supervision where bad stuff was bound to happen shows clearly that they never considdered the fact. Indeed, after the violence and insults came out when i was 15 I got a long talk from my head of year who said "oh they're a very nice year, but your not particularly friendly to them are you"

I did derive some satisfaction when on the last day of term, some of them turned around and spat on her before they left, I wanted to ask her if she thought they were a very nice year then.

Sometimes I read books about "normal" time at school and find them utterly alien! indeed if I ever had kids, I'd be tempted to have them taught at hole sinse I'd be so worried about them going to school.


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#374404 - 11/05/11 10:46 PM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: dark empathy]
mickeyg1375 Offline


Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas, USA
I really feel terribly for a case such as yours Empathy. I can sympathize with you to a point, but I doubt that I suffered quite the humiliation that you have. I put up with shoving, harassment, and the occasional fist across the jaw for no apparent goddamn reason. I realized in later years how my odd behavior didn't help matters at times, but certainly not deserving of the extent of bullying.
I finally began lifting weights, added some muscle, and learned to stand firm, look the bastards in the eye, and dare them to swing when they started their shit. I found that to be a great deterrent. They would back off because they didn't have a real reason to push matters any further. By that time, I had been touched by the curse of SA, so I quit school within the next year or so. I would say that there was about a 4 year overlap between the bullying and the SA.


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#374522 - 11/07/11 01:13 AM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: mickeyg1375]
WriterKeith Online   embarrased
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 938
Loc: southern California
I really appreciate your comments in the conversation here. You summarized what I have been unable to express.

_________________________
"A burned bridge can be a gift; it prevents us from returning to a place we should have never been."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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#374530 - 11/07/11 06:01 AM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: WriterKeith]
1lifenow Offline


Registered: 03/07/11
Posts: 393
Loc: west coast
What a great and interesting thread you created Keith, how it has morphed into something that speaks to so many of us. For me, being a little guy, (I graduated high school at a buck 20, I looked like a little freakin librarian). I think I even had that horrible little man –napoleon syndrome for a while. The key here is that the CSA is compounded by the bullying cuz it’s really so closely linked, they are on a continuum, not separated entities.

Vadrian, you said a key thing, and that is that we are ANXIOUS from the csa. That is what people can see - Our abnormal response to teasing, threats and aggression. When we are abused our body automatically goes to that frightened little boy, we telegraph it for the world of bullies and perps to see. I asked a buddy who was the under 15 provincial champ in judo what made him so good. He said he could see and sense what the other guy would do even b4 his opponent would finish his move. He said he got so good that he could move his body subtlety to get the other guy to do what he wanted. He couldn’t put it into words he just knew it. So with a fake punch or an insult the bullies could see we could not defend ourselves. We didn’t have the tools.

If our mother or father was part of the abuse or were distant, uncaring or worse, we also did not get the ability to learn how to see threats for what they were. Stupid acts by stupid kids. But to us they were world ending events; there was no way to tell the difference. Then the negative self talk would ring in our ears how we let ourselves just fucking take it again and again.

Cris40ky , I like what you said about trying to quell that notion by keep repeating that we were not worthy of love, we sure were, we just didn’t get it, your words ring anything but hollow. Magellan , there is always hope, we are here and working to make sense of all this like keith said but its just not always that clear where its going, but to me it doesn’t matter as long as its moving. Motion is lotion.

Dark empathy, Man I feel for what you endured, I remember my erection climbing the rope in gym, every god damned time. But so what, it happened to others, but it was our conspicuous embarrassment, our inability to establish a respectful boundary. To make a joke instead of cringe and die a little each time inside. I know you care and can feel, I see that you can’t even write the word sex, unless you are feeling the rage of indignation when you described sexual discrimination.


Originally Posted By: WriterKeith

It's got me thinking of the many, many others who were not helped in their greatest moment of need, from the Jews to missionaries who were led to their deaths while praying for help.

Maybe they were delivered to a different and better place.

Maybe if I hadn't endured hell as a child, I would be an arrogant sob now and ready for hell later.

Puffer

This is a response that is so staggering in its leap of logic, that I just had to say something. I used to just tacitly accept that everyone is entitled to and have their own beliefs, but I am sorry, this is just not ok. To say that the gays, gypsies, Ukrainians, and mostly Jews who were sent to there death, maybe they went to a “different and better place” is quite frankly -frightening. If one can blithely accept and justify the mass extermination of so many by saying such a thing, how can we as survivors expect any understanding or empathy from the general population? Them now telling us it might have been for the best and we should just get over it, sure, let’s go with that. WTF.
Ya maybe you would have been an arrogant SOB but maybe you would have been president too, the ends do not justify the means. It shifts blame back to the victim. Its remarkable cuz later you are quite vulnerable talking about how this has made you a loaner, I get that sense of isolation and pain. You talked eloquently about the effects of exclusion; let’s not heap it on ourselves.

“I used to pray the Same Keith, Lord Why me, why do I have to endure all this pain and suffering.
Now here we are years later, and I finally know why it is that this happened. I am here to set up a group to help other men. I have the character and the personality to be able to help. For me a different life path would have been great, But God had other plans. I remember a verse that says, "And all things happen for good" Its Romans 8:28 I Think.”

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." –king James Version (interpretation) so if you are a believer, HE created evil too. Personally I like the monty python version the best,
All things dull and ugly,
All things short and squat,
All things rude and nasty,
The Lord God made the lot.
Monty Python
The point is, Why it happened is cuz of f'd up life circumstances that ruined your childhood – it was not some cosmic plan. There is a spatial link in time not a causal link.
And yet Whome, because of your character and empathy and work in healing you are now in a position to graciously help others.

“I believe that we are all born with a purpose, and all have something to fulfill in this life, so we have to make the best of it, or else whets it all about.
This life can’t be all that it’s about, otherwise it has been a really crappy one for a lot of us.”

Exactly, to help others when despite what was done THAT is what it’s all about. How do we help others? We show them. Like Incognito, you changed. You lifted weights, changed your appearance but more importantly you change your attitude. Your self confidence allowed you to walk tall, look people in the eye like Mickey said. Your posture changed, you did not show weakness, but instead strength. And so often we are literally beaten down so we look at the floor instead of showing a smile or glint in our eye or sense that we are even worthy of belonging. That can change. Keith you’re right, its more vulnerability than weakness but that word implies something positive, human, sharing. We showed damage and an inability to react appropriately, respect ourselves and our dignity with reasonable boundaries. Yet we did survive cuz of an even stronger inner strength. 100% others could not endure what we did. But like Mickey pointed out the bastards will only back off if we make them. We can no longer take a swing but as my group MS leaders says, as adults; we have to be kind but FIRM.

Mickey – “It wasn't until my mid 20s that I learned how to assimilate into society, and my mid 30s that I began to learn about true self worth and relationships. Now, here I am at 42, and I am just getting to the root causes of everything, and I feel like I am still dealing with the lost years, and living from behind, if that makes any sense. Now I just hope that my continued efforts can make the rest of my life the best years yet.” Around our mid 20’s is when our brain is finally developed, but the effects of the damage from the csa and other ptsd events take years to show up. Despite this, I love your message of hope.

Keith you have done a great job wrapping this thread and really helping us all see that it’s all a compound thing that has clouded our ability to get close to people cuz we are perpetually on guard. I see now why I hated my first jobs, and may account for why I am self employed now. I remember being harassed by a co-worker who I thought was my friend. We went out socially and he and his buddy were drinking and proceeded to ridicule, taunt and fucking bully me. I was so upset I could barely speak- I was devastated to be treated so badly. The next day, he reacted like it was no big deal and said “hey why didn’t you just tell us to stop” and he smiled and walked away. Ya why didn’t I. Now all these years later I know.

Note: I am just trying to be as honest as I can, I respect others rights to hold whatever beliefs they want, just please do not suggest that the csa I and many others endured was somehow anything other than a case of shitty life, shitty circumstances , shitty boundaries, shitty parenting , shitty ignorance, shitty perp, shitty time and place. Not the result of an omniscient being’s grand design for an innocent little boy. If that is what you truly believe for yourself then so be it, but then respect my right to think that when it’s globally applied to the rest of us, it’s a bunch of bunk. Nothing personal intended. Ok I had to get that off my chest.

_________________________
The need for love lies at the very foundation of human existence. Dalai Lama

WoR Barrie 2011

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#374539 - 11/07/11 08:11 AM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: 1lifenow]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 1938
Loc: durham, north england
Thanks people.

i confess this topic has been hard for me to read and reply too, sinse as I've said, in my case bullying was! the abuse and went as far as what I've come to realize was virtual public gang rape.

Yes i was visually impared, but more than that I was clever. None of the other vi students had happen as bad things as I did, and yet I suspect I didn't do half as well at school as I should've done were I somewhere decent.

Myself, i think bullying is missrepresented. Schools try to keep it under the rug sinse they don't want a law sute, and girls can get away with murder simply because they are female while boys just have to take it as part of growing up.

I wish people would just be open about it and treat everyone equally.


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#374551 - 11/07/11 11:23 AM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: dark empathy]
KMCINVA Offline
Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1568
I believe on-going and repetitive bullying is just another name for abuse. Bullying no matter what age can make the target feel empty, lost and in the case of someone who had previously experienced CSA, it brings him/her back to the child, the emotions of feeling lost, scared, controlled, violated and worthlessness. I1lifenow said it the best "Our abnormal response to teasing, threats and aggression. When we are abused our body automatically goes to that frightened little boy, we telegraph it for the world of bullies and perps to see."

I have learned no matter what age never bully or antagonize because no one knows what is buried in that persons past. It could be the breaking point for that person.


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#374595 - 11/07/11 08:17 PM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: KMCINVA]
Vadrian Offline


Registered: 09/10/11
Posts: 111
Loc: Pacific
For me a lot of the bullying also stemmed from the fact that I was gay and not interested in conforming to stereotypical male gender roles. I know it's also a shared experience for people forced to repeat a grade to suffer from intense bullying. I was singled out for intense attention, but that doesn't make it right for anyone to harass, hit, or insult someone. The culture of how children are treated and how they are allowed to treat each other needs to change. Personally, I don't believe in violence, I don't like muscles or martial arts, and I don't see what's wrong with being physically 'weak' and sensitive.


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#374599 - 11/07/11 09:08 PM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: WriterKeith]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1170
Loc: New York
Peace,Rainbows & Healing


Edited by lapchinj (03/18/13 06:14 AM)
_________________________

Stick around, It will get better....

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#374600 - 11/07/11 09:24 PM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: 1lifenow]
WriterKeith Online   embarrased
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 938
Loc: southern California
In the theme of your signature icon, you hit a home run with your post.

_________________________
"A burned bridge can be a gift; it prevents us from returning to a place we should have never been."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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#374601 - 11/07/11 09:33 PM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: lapchinj]
WriterKeith Online   embarrased
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 938
Loc: southern California
Jeff, your post is an eye opener. I hope it helped to open up about it. It helped me, and I'm sure others, to learn about your experience and your survival.

_________________________
"A burned bridge can be a gift; it prevents us from returning to a place we should have never been."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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#374604 - 11/07/11 09:47 PM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: cris40ky]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11027
Loc: Denver, CO
Yes, Keith, bullied lots from sometime in grade school through middle school. It seemed like I had 10+ enemies a day.

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#374625 - 11/08/11 03:38 AM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: FormerTexan]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 1938
Loc: durham, north england
Hi Geff.

As I said when you wrote about this the in the other thread, that sounds disturbingly familiar, I can completely empathize sinse I had fairly similar incidents to that happen as well and they stil make me feel disguisting and violated, and the teachers did absolutely nothing or claimed it was my fault, sinse they didn't want to admit there was a problem at all.


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#374627 - 11/08/11 04:23 AM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: dark empathy]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1170
Loc: New York
Peace,Rainbows & Healing


Edited by lapchinj (03/18/13 06:13 AM)
_________________________

Stick around, It will get better....

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#374684 - 11/08/11 04:33 PM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: lapchinj]
mickeyg1375 Offline


Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas, USA
Jeff, it is absolutely true that, if what you went through, you suffered as an adult, you would have an air tight case in a court of law. Why does it not occur to people that it is an even worse offense when it happens to a kid. I have overcome a lot when it comes to my bullying issues, and I haven't seen such a level of public humiliation, but I still find myself fighting negative feelings when I hear people, especially girls, laughing behind me. It's like they are all still laughing at me. I have to remind myself that those days are long gone.


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#374686 - 11/08/11 05:16 PM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: mickeyg1375]
Magellan Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1392
Loc: California
I'm still following this thread.

I'm dismayed to perceive that there doesn't seem to be many resources in the way of counseling for people who have been victims of school bullying. In my case (and in many of yours) I was bullied by a large group of kids in school during grades 1-3.

frown

_________________________
It's a heroes journey, and you are the hero.

Loving Kindness Meditation will dramatically improve your spirits; give it a try for just 3 days: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz7cpV7ERsM

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#374690 - 11/08/11 06:06 PM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: Magellan]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1170
Loc: New York
Peace,Rainbows & Healing


Edited by lapchinj (03/18/13 06:13 AM)
_________________________

Stick around, It will get better....

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