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#374327 - 11/05/11 01:11 AM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: cris40ky]
Vadrian Offline


Registered: 09/10/11
Posts: 111
Loc: Pacific
Yes, trying to destroy... Everyone deserves a tolerant environment where, regardless if they are vulnerable or shy or sad, they are still given the rights to privacy and dignity, peace.



Edited by Vadrian (11/09/11 09:14 PM)

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#374362 - 11/05/11 11:41 AM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: WriterKeith]
mickeyg1375 Offline


Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas, USA
WK,
On top of being abused, I was small, I moved around a lot, so I was always the new kid, and I had no father to teach me to defend myself, so I was relentlessly bullied from kindergarten until probably 9th grade.
My feelings of worthlessness didn't originate with my abuse, they were only confirmed and compounded. I felt too alone and miniscule to fight back, so I internalized all of my anger. Luckily when that anger came out, it usually was directed at inanimate objects.
I fell in with the stoner crowd, who were usually my sisters friends because I really didn't have any of my own. It was either that, or my moms latest alcoholic boyfriend. One of which taught me to drink heavily. I guess they all thought it was cool to get the little guy messed up.
It wasn't until my mid 20s that I learned how to assimilate into society, and my mid 30s that I began to learn about true self worth and relationships. Now, here I am at 42, and I am just getting to the root causes of everything, and I feel like I am still dealing with the lost years, and living from behind, if that makes any sense. Now I just hope that my continued efforts can make the rest of my life the best years yet.


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#374391 - 11/05/11 08:20 PM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: mickeyg1375]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2039
Loc: durham, north england
I'm afraid I'm neither convinced of the cowards or destructive impulses, not in my case. quite often whether stuff happened with me or not simply depended upon how busy people were. I used to hope there was something on tv people would start talking about sinse that would keep them from doing stuff to me.

I don't think the vast majority were even malicious, a couple were, like the boy who regularly gave me bruises and two of the girls involved in the most serious humiliation, but most were just along for the the ride. If people were chucking things at me they'd join in, because it was what their crowd was doing, nothing more.

No wonder I hate groups and always feel isolated now.

I don't think they even realized how hurtful it was, it was just something to do.

At one point I considdered taking a calving knife to school, stabbing some of the worst offenders involved then myself, just to make them feel what I felt (luckily this wasn't something I ever did, though i used to have dreams about it frequently).

There is a passage in the screwtape letters by c lewis which says any evil, any act of violence or aggression can be made acceptable if it is made to appear humourus, this absolutely describes what happened to me.

I'd be willing to bet those involved don't even remember what they did, or at most just say "it was just a bit of fun" Indeed the way the teachers completely ignored this stuff and even contributed by sticking me and a bunch of other kids somewhere without supervision where bad stuff was bound to happen shows clearly that they never considdered the fact. Indeed, after the violence and insults came out when i was 15 I got a long talk from my head of year who said "oh they're a very nice year, but your not particularly friendly to them are you"

I did derive some satisfaction when on the last day of term, some of them turned around and spat on her before they left, I wanted to ask her if she thought they were a very nice year then.

Sometimes I read books about "normal" time at school and find them utterly alien! indeed if I ever had kids, I'd be tempted to have them taught at hole sinse I'd be so worried about them going to school.


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#374404 - 11/05/11 10:46 PM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: dark empathy]
mickeyg1375 Offline


Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas, USA
I really feel terribly for a case such as yours Empathy. I can sympathize with you to a point, but I doubt that I suffered quite the humiliation that you have. I put up with shoving, harassment, and the occasional fist across the jaw for no apparent goddamn reason. I realized in later years how my odd behavior didn't help matters at times, but certainly not deserving of the extent of bullying.
I finally began lifting weights, added some muscle, and learned to stand firm, look the bastards in the eye, and dare them to swing when they started their shit. I found that to be a great deterrent. They would back off because they didn't have a real reason to push matters any further. By that time, I had been touched by the curse of SA, so I quit school within the next year or so. I would say that there was about a 4 year overlap between the bullying and the SA.


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#374522 - 11/07/11 01:13 AM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: mickeyg1375]
WriterKeith Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 975
Loc: southern California
I really appreciate your comments in the conversation here. You summarized what I have been unable to express.

_________________________
"A burned bridge can be a gift; it prevents us from returning to a place we should have never been."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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#374530 - 11/07/11 06:01 AM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: WriterKeith]
1lifenow Offline


Registered: 03/07/11
Posts: 417
Loc: west coast
What a great and interesting thread you created Keith, how it has morphed into something that speaks to so many of us. For me, being a little guy, (I graduated high school at a buck 20, I looked like a little freakin librarian). I think I even had that horrible little man –napoleon syndrome for a while. The key here is that the CSA is compounded by the bullying cuz it’s really so closely linked, they are on a continuum, not separated entities.

Vadrian, you said a key thing, and that is that we are ANXIOUS from the csa. That is what people can see - Our abnormal response to teasing, threats and aggression. When we are abused our body automatically goes to that frightened little boy, we telegraph it for the world of bullies and perps to see. I asked a buddy who was the under 15 provincial champ in judo what made him so good. He said he could see and sense what the other guy would do even b4 his opponent would finish his move. He said he got so good that he could move his body subtlety to get the other guy to do what he wanted. He couldn’t put it into words he just knew it. So with a fake punch or an insult the bullies could see we could not defend ourselves. We didn’t have the tools.

If our mother or father was part of the abuse or were distant, uncaring or worse, we also did not get the ability to learn how to see threats for what they were. Stupid acts by stupid kids. But to us they were world ending events; there was no way to tell the difference. Then the negative self talk would ring in our ears how we let ourselves just fucking take it again and again.

Cris40ky , I like what you said about trying to quell that notion by keep repeating that we were not worthy of love, we sure were, we just didn’t get it, your words ring anything but hollow. Magellan , there is always hope, we are here and working to make sense of all this like keith said but its just not always that clear where its going, but to me it doesn’t matter as long as its moving. Motion is lotion.

Dark empathy, Man I feel for what you endured, I remember my erection climbing the rope in gym, every god damned time. But so what, it happened to others, but it was our conspicuous embarrassment, our inability to establish a respectful boundary. To make a joke instead of cringe and die a little each time inside. I know you care and can feel, I see that you can’t even write the word sex, unless you are feeling the rage of indignation when you described sexual discrimination.


Originally Posted By: WriterKeith

It's got me thinking of the many, many others who were not helped in their greatest moment of need, from the Jews to missionaries who were led to their deaths while praying for help.

Maybe they were delivered to a different and better place.

Maybe if I hadn't endured hell as a child, I would be an arrogant sob now and ready for hell later.

Puffer

This is a response that is so staggering in its leap of logic, that I just had to say something. I used to just tacitly accept that everyone is entitled to and have their own beliefs, but I am sorry, this is just not ok. To say that the gays, gypsies, Ukrainians, and mostly Jews who were sent to there death, maybe they went to a “different and better place” is quite frankly -frightening. If one can blithely accept and justify the mass extermination of so many by saying such a thing, how can we as survivors expect any understanding or empathy from the general population? Them now telling us it might have been for the best and we should just get over it, sure, let’s go with that. WTF.
Ya maybe you would have been an arrogant SOB but maybe you would have been president too, the ends do not justify the means. It shifts blame back to the victim. Its remarkable cuz later you are quite vulnerable talking about how this has made you a loaner, I get that sense of isolation and pain. You talked eloquently about the effects of exclusion; let’s not heap it on ourselves.

“I used to pray the Same Keith, Lord Why me, why do I have to endure all this pain and suffering.
Now here we are years later, and I finally know why it is that this happened. I am here to set up a group to help other men. I have the character and the personality to be able to help. For me a different life path would have been great, But God had other plans. I remember a verse that says, "And all things happen for good" Its Romans 8:28 I Think.”

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." –king James Version (interpretation) so if you are a believer, HE created evil too. Personally I like the monty python version the best,
All things dull and ugly,
All things short and squat,
All things rude and nasty,
The Lord God made the lot.
Monty Python
The point is, Why it happened is cuz of f'd up life circumstances that ruined your childhood – it was not some cosmic plan. There is a spatial link in time not a causal link.
And yet Whome, because of your character and empathy and work in healing you are now in a position to graciously help others.

“I believe that we are all born with a purpose, and all have something to fulfill in this life, so we have to make the best of it, or else whets it all about.
This life can’t be all that it’s about, otherwise it has been a really crappy one for a lot of us.”

Exactly, to help others when despite what was done THAT is what it’s all about. How do we help others? We show them. Like Incognito, you changed. You lifted weights, changed your appearance but more importantly you change your attitude. Your self confidence allowed you to walk tall, look people in the eye like Mickey said. Your posture changed, you did not show weakness, but instead strength. And so often we are literally beaten down so we look at the floor instead of showing a smile or glint in our eye or sense that we are even worthy of belonging. That can change. Keith you’re right, its more vulnerability than weakness but that word implies something positive, human, sharing. We showed damage and an inability to react appropriately, respect ourselves and our dignity with reasonable boundaries. Yet we did survive cuz of an even stronger inner strength. 100% others could not endure what we did. But like Mickey pointed out the bastards will only back off if we make them. We can no longer take a swing but as my group MS leaders says, as adults; we have to be kind but FIRM.

Mickey – “It wasn't until my mid 20s that I learned how to assimilate into society, and my mid 30s that I began to learn about true self worth and relationships. Now, here I am at 42, and I am just getting to the root causes of everything, and I feel like I am still dealing with the lost years, and living from behind, if that makes any sense. Now I just hope that my continued efforts can make the rest of my life the best years yet.” Around our mid 20’s is when our brain is finally developed, but the effects of the damage from the csa and other ptsd events take years to show up. Despite this, I love your message of hope.

Keith you have done a great job wrapping this thread and really helping us all see that it’s all a compound thing that has clouded our ability to get close to people cuz we are perpetually on guard. I see now why I hated my first jobs, and may account for why I am self employed now. I remember being harassed by a co-worker who I thought was my friend. We went out socially and he and his buddy were drinking and proceeded to ridicule, taunt and fucking bully me. I was so upset I could barely speak- I was devastated to be treated so badly. The next day, he reacted like it was no big deal and said “hey why didn’t you just tell us to stop” and he smiled and walked away. Ya why didn’t I. Now all these years later I know.

Note: I am just trying to be as honest as I can, I respect others rights to hold whatever beliefs they want, just please do not suggest that the csa I and many others endured was somehow anything other than a case of shitty life, shitty circumstances , shitty boundaries, shitty parenting , shitty ignorance, shitty perp, shitty time and place. Not the result of an omniscient being’s grand design for an innocent little boy. If that is what you truly believe for yourself then so be it, but then respect my right to think that when it’s globally applied to the rest of us, it’s a bunch of bunk. Nothing personal intended. Ok I had to get that off my chest.

_________________________
The need for love lies at the very foundation of human existence. Dalai Lama

WoR Barrie 2011

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#374539 - 11/07/11 08:11 AM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: 1lifenow]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2039
Loc: durham, north england
Thanks people.

i confess this topic has been hard for me to read and reply too, sinse as I've said, in my case bullying was! the abuse and went as far as what I've come to realize was virtual public gang rape.

Yes i was visually impared, but more than that I was clever. None of the other vi students had happen as bad things as I did, and yet I suspect I didn't do half as well at school as I should've done were I somewhere decent.

Myself, i think bullying is missrepresented. Schools try to keep it under the rug sinse they don't want a law sute, and girls can get away with murder simply because they are female while boys just have to take it as part of growing up.

I wish people would just be open about it and treat everyone equally.


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#374551 - 11/07/11 11:23 AM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: dark empathy]
KMCINVA Offline
Greeter
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1991
I believe on-going and repetitive bullying is just another name for abuse. Bullying no matter what age can make the target feel empty, lost and in the case of someone who had previously experienced CSA, it brings him/her back to the child, the emotions of feeling lost, scared, controlled, violated and worthlessness. I1lifenow said it the best "Our abnormal response to teasing, threats and aggression. When we are abused our body automatically goes to that frightened little boy, we telegraph it for the world of bullies and perps to see."

I have learned no matter what age never bully or antagonize because no one knows what is buried in that persons past. It could be the breaking point for that person.


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#374595 - 11/07/11 08:17 PM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: KMCINVA]
Vadrian Offline


Registered: 09/10/11
Posts: 111
Loc: Pacific
For me a lot of the bullying also stemmed from the fact that I was gay and not interested in conforming to stereotypical male gender roles. I know it's also a shared experience for people forced to repeat a grade to suffer from intense bullying. I was singled out for intense attention, but that doesn't make it right for anyone to harass, hit, or insult someone. The culture of how children are treated and how they are allowed to treat each other needs to change. Personally, I don't believe in violence, I don't like muscles or martial arts, and I don't see what's wrong with being physically 'weak' and sensitive.


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#374599 - 11/07/11 09:08 PM Re: CSA Compounded with bullying [Re: WriterKeith]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1309
Loc: New York
Peace,Rainbows & Healing


Edited by lapchinj (03/18/13 06:14 AM)
_________________________
Stick around, It will get better....

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