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#372044 - 10/10/11 03:01 AM From hell to heaven and back again
Pie Offline


Registered: 05/27/11
Posts: 61
Its been a while since I last posted... I thought I had it under control, no enabeling, no emotional entanglement, just at peace and supporting with love..

That was until a therapy session destroyed my illusion of progress.

How are you coping? Brilliantly!!...
How have things changed at home? Well no outrageous fighting...
How much quality time spent together? Ummm no time alone as a couple...
How often have you been intimate as a couple? Truth, nothing at all...
When last did you discuss the issues around the abuse? Has to be weeks ago...
Is he still acting out? Don't actually know, I haven't really taken notice...
Really? I don't see much of him, he is always at meetings or therapy sessions, reading his resource books or on his laptop...
How do you feel about that? He is healing and needs these things to do it, its a bit lonely sometimes...
And so it went on and on....
At the end of the session I was told that I am in denial!!!

So I went home... Didn't word anything as nicely as I could have and ended up in a week long fight... Back to the begining!!! I have been told I am the most selfish, inconsiderate, unsupportive person alive! He wishes I would just vanish as he has no sexual desire for me, he only cares because I am the mother of his childern, he would be so much more succesful without the burden of the family! Then a total turn around! He can't live without me, if it weren't for me he would have committed suicide years ago, I am the only person he trusts!!

Wtf!!!! I am in denial!
What has changed? Absoloutly nothing!
Is it going to change? I am loosing hope faster than I could ever have imagined!

But in his eyes, he has defeated the demons, triamphed over the perps, he is more than a survivor!!
It was easier in denial or could it be acceptance? Just accepting that nothing will ever be "normal", just to co-habitate with a man I will never understand.

This pie needs some fresh flovors...


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#372052 - 10/10/11 08:28 AM Re: From hell to heaven and back again [Re: Pie]
Disappointed Offline


Registered: 08/11/09
Posts: 540
Loc: U.S.A.
Hello Pie,

I've just re-read some of your posts. If he is reading books and going to therapy, then he is working on it. Big plus.

You're lucky he's trying to be positive rather than moping about how bad it is.

I'm in a totally different situation. I merely have a 40-something old acquaintance who suffers the fallout from CSA. He asks me to play a game his alter egos like to play on the phone, which is basically a sexual fetish. I've been doing this with him for 3 years. He does it in cycles of about 2 or 3 weeks.

Why do I mention him? He's been seeing a therapist one on one every week for at least 4 years and recently changed therapists to get someone with more experience with his type of problem. He's come to me for help with small business problems over the years as well (I'm a lawyer). I really like this guy. He's good looking, successful, cheerful, you name it, he's got it. But he's been married and divorced 3 times I know of. I checked court records which are public, and 2 of those marriages were very short lived.

The entire time I've known this guy, I've been trying to get him to come see me face to face. He's actually come to see me maybe half a dozen times, but in the last year, none at all. None. But he still calls, emails, whatever, and actually makes Demands! by email that I talk to him. Ho! Ho! Ho!

Anyway, what I'm trying to get to is this. I have spent hundreds of hours in the last 3 years, on this site, other sites, reading books, watching movies, to try to understand what makes him tick. It has taken a tremendous amount of patience to get him to the point he trusts me. He began being more open with me back in February of this year. But he still lies, and he still won't give me all the information I need to understand him. I'm like a diamond miner, going through tons and tons and tons of rock, to find one 2 carat diamond. Thank goodness I don't have to make a living at this!

Previously, I believe it was Whome that said if you set boundaries and say "No more" he may get his act together to avoid losing you. He may very well be right. But two years is nothing to a man who has been hiding a secret for 35 years as my friend did.

2 years is nothing.

I'm sorry to say that, but in my experience, it's true.

That's why I'm:

"Disappointed."

_________________________
Female.

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#372113 - 10/11/11 07:57 AM Re: From hell to heaven and back again [Re: Disappointed]
Pie Offline


Registered: 05/27/11
Posts: 61
Thanks Disappointed

I've been trying to work out if the behavior is again manipulation or if there is some real healing taking place. I have just become so sceptical over the years due to the addictions, cheating,lies, pornography, affairs, verbal and emotional abuse. When can we just relax and be safe? How do I regain trust in humanity? Especialy when my home is perverted with lies and secrets.

I completely understand why you are disappointed!

If nothing else, at least, I can see love in my little ones eyes.
Pie


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#372118 - 10/11/11 11:19 AM Re: From hell to heaven and back again [Re: Pie]
Disappointed Offline


Registered: 08/11/09
Posts: 540
Loc: U.S.A.
My experience has been, that if there is manipulation, the manipulation is a sympton of the underlying problem. The underlying problem is the survivor is HEAVILY conflicted.

He wants two different things (one of which he only thinks he wants) that are in conflict. He wants the normal life everyone else has. He wants to satisfy the urges he carries due to the CSA. These two are irreconcilable. So he manipulates in order to try to hide his efforts to satisfy the socially unacceptable urges.

But to me, they're acceptable. Just wish my friend could accept himself.

D.

_________________________
Female.

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#372120 - 10/11/11 11:39 AM Re: From hell to heaven and back again [Re: Disappointed]
GoodHope Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 417
Originally Posted By: Disappointed


He wants two different things (one of which he only thinks he wants) that are in conflict. He wants the normal life everyone else has. He wants to satisfy the urges he carries due to the CSA. These two are irreconcilable. So he manipulates in order to try to hide his efforts to satisfy the socially unacceptable urges.


Wow! That is an amazing assessment of what I believe I am witnessing.

_________________________
Wife of a survivor

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#372130 - 10/11/11 01:34 PM Re: From hell to heaven and back again [Re: GoodHope]
hopeandtry Offline


Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 476
I, too, went through the push-pull thing. The last time I saw my ex, he lavished praise on me for leaving his house (he wanted to be alone after sex), for being there for him, for "treating him better than anyone else ever has," and told me how I deserved someone to love me every day, etc. A few weeks later he ditched me and started demonizing me. It is maddening and a good old-fashioned mind-fuck (excuse the term). It is true that they need patience, but DO NOT let him paint you black. You know you are being supportive. Are you perfect at it? Of course not...none of us are. But don't let him make you second guess yourself. You might make mistakes, and it's good to apologize for those, but overall you are a good supporter. I have to remind myself of that as well, because when he starts demonizing me and pushing me away, I start wondering if part of it is "me." It's not me...he is just running like hell and doing whatever he can to hide the pain, cover his mistakes, etc.


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#372131 - 10/11/11 01:38 PM Re: From hell to heaven and back again [Re: GoodHope]
Disappointed Offline


Registered: 08/11/09
Posts: 540
Loc: U.S.A.
Thanks.

Some other things to keep in mind. I've been reading KMCINVA's posts very closely, and re-reading them. They're gold mines of information. Almost every CSA male victim whose postings I have read, or spoken with over the phone, or met, have at least two very distinct attitudes about their current behavior options.

One half of each man is drawn to re-enacting abuse, the other half hates the mere thought of those actions. In many men, it seems this conflict is at the front of their minds and they see it and feel it, sometimes stronger, sometimes weaker. However, the men with the worst cases, the men whose trauma was extremely bad, these men have alternate personalities who hold these conflicting desires. My friend is one of these men.

So, in a real way, you have 2 or 3 people inhabiting one body. And let's say, they take turns having control over the body. So, when the average guy is taking out his wife/girlfriend, the personalities with the urges to re-enact don't control any behavior. Then, something happens, time, tiredness, stress, whatever, the alternate personality with the urge to re-enact takes over, and does whatever will satisfy him or "her."

Now, the reason I mention KMCINVA's posts is this: he very clearly explains that the alters who have the urge to re-enact are trying to get something. They are trying to get love. They believe love is abuse and abuse is love. This could be a very important key.

Someone else said, the alters are trying to tell someone something. Pufferfish says, the younger alters are more malleable than that average guy. He says speak kindly to them and get to know them. What they like, what they don't like. This is all he's told me so far.

But I think, taking these threads together, if you can speak with the alters, who many times are children, and bathe them in love, patience, understanding, tolerance, and curiosity about what they are about, you could lead them into a yearning for a different kind of expression of love. But it takes patience and a tolerance most of can't even imagine.

That's my take right now. I am constantly working on trying to evolve my relationship with this man. I've made progress, but it is so slow, as a practical matter, I do this for him, because I don't get much out of it. Very little.

I know I'm wordy, but I have a lot to say.

D.

_________________________
Female.

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#372133 - 10/11/11 02:15 PM Re: From hell to heaven and back again [Re: GoodHope]
whome Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/07/11
Posts: 1736
Loc: Johannesburg South Africa
OK My Turn

Firstly is he doing the horrible things he used to?
Secondly, you are expecting a lifetime of habits and coping mechanisms to be over in a flash,....... don't work.

This mans whole life has come apart at the seams, and everyone wants him to be "normal"

I am at this stage, I have genuinely lost all desire to act out, and truly want to do anything I can to make the lovely lady I have terrorized for 20 years happy, but I find that I sorely lack the ability.
I cannot function on this level, -----well yet. I hope to God it will change soon.

My darling of course treats everything with suspicion, and tells me I am always angry,.......when I feel I am not, and does not know how to take me. She too cant believe that I am 'healed' or does not want to get her hopes up in case I crush them. All this is true,... and I can understand this.

But I find our relationship very very stressed, and feel if I suddenly start behaving in a manner that I am not used to doing, it would be false and possibly construed as a cover for wrong doing on my part. So Damned if I do and Damned if I don't.

I gotta tell you all,...this post is a bit of an epiphany for me.

I cant guarantee that your H isn't doing wrong, but please understand that he to has a lot to deal with. He has his whole life to change, all the behaviors that were normal are now not. If you get caught, a quick lie would pop out, but you cant do that now. Nothing is normal, nothing is not normal, everything is twisted and upside down.

I find myself diarising things, behaviors, so that I can go back and remember what I had done. Sometimes I am asked a question and without thinking dash out an answer. It turns out to be a lie, and I don't even remember it. This whole tirade of "you see you havent changed" pops out, and we go at it again. I have never fought this much with my wife.

I suppose this is "Normal" Sometimes I hate being "normal"

So Now that I have ranted. Try to ensure that he isn't up to his old tricks, and then give him a little space to reinvent himself, cause that is what he has to do. He can no longer be three different people and has to now merge all these persona's into one.

I feel for you I really do, but EVERY story has two sides.

_________________________
Matrix Men South Africa
Survivors Supporting Each other
Matrix Men Blog

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#372136 - 10/11/11 02:40 PM Re: From hell to heaven and back again [Re: whome]
GoodHope Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 417
Martin, are you sure you are fighting? Does your wife feel like it's fighting. I ask because real discussions are bot resolved in minutes. My husband and I never had real discussions. I was having them but he was checked out. Now that we are having something closer to real ones, they feel contentious to him but they aren't. He's just unaccustomed to hashing things out.

It is an adjustment for me as well but I let him know I prefer real and crappy over fake and "happy" any day.

The absence of conflict is as big a problem as the presence of it in many cases.

_________________________
Wife of a survivor

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#372139 - 10/11/11 03:07 PM Re: From hell to heaven and back again [Re: Disappointed]
Disappointed Offline


Registered: 08/11/09
Posts: 540
Loc: U.S.A.
A couple more things: Back to KMCINVA. He says, his child alter experienced the abuse and shielded him from it. As he has accepted and lifted the pain from the child alter, it has felt more and more loved, and has been taking him to safe places when the child is in control, rather than places where he can act out dangerously. Incredible change of behavior.

Also, one of my friend's alters has said it hates another of them. That is shockingly strong language to use about one's self.

And Martin is right on.



Edited by Disappointed (10/11/11 03:10 PM)
_________________________
Female.

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#372140 - 10/11/11 03:21 PM Re: From hell to heaven and back again [Re: GoodHope]
whome Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/07/11
Posts: 1736
Loc: Johannesburg South Africa
It sure feels like arguing to me.

Point is that I am Not experienced at this "real Normal" stuff.

I am still learning to communicate in a REAL way, learning to express emotions and Feelings. Hell feelings and emotions are foreign to me. There is all this real stuff that we need to learn. Whilst we are learning this, it is easier to withdraw and not say anything lest we are wrong.

So If your H is withdrawn, he is pondering all these new things that he needs to learn. He needs to learn how to be "real". And while he is learning this he prefers to remain quite and out of trouble.

_________________________
Matrix Men South Africa
Survivors Supporting Each other
Matrix Men Blog

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#372141 - 10/11/11 03:29 PM Re: From hell to heaven and back again [Re: Disappointed]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6875
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Disappointed
A couple more things: Back to KMCINVA. He says, his child alter experienced the abuse and shielded him from it. As he has accepted and lifted the pain from the child alter, it has felt more and more loved, and has been taking him to safe places when the child is in control, rather than places where he can act out dangerously. Incredible change of behavior.

That is the function of alters. They are able to bear abuse and thus shield the main alter from it. There is an amnesia barrier which is protective. Yes, the child alters need to be shown love and to realize that they are safe.
Originally Posted By: Disappointed

Also, one of my friend's alters has said it hates another of them. That is shockingly strong language to use about one's self.

I think that's how it goes in true DID. The alters are formed to "handle" specific needs or situations. Because of this they often are in strong contrast to the main one. They have abilities which are able to do things the main one can't. According to my reading, some have female alters who are able to handle some things better.

Puffer


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#372143 - 10/11/11 03:34 PM Re: From hell to heaven and back again [Re: pufferfish]
Disappointed Offline


Registered: 08/11/09
Posts: 540
Loc: U.S.A.
Okay, Puffer! Anything you can write to explain how to relate to the alters will help!!

How should I approach alters? You said be loving to them. What else can you suggest?

_________________________
Female.

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#372144 - 10/11/11 03:41 PM Re: From hell to heaven and back again [Re: Disappointed]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6875
Loc: USA
You can ask them who they are. Ask their name. Ordinary people might be offended, but they won't be.

Memorize their various personality differences, and/or keep a carefully hidden journal notating their names and personal characteristics. Some of them will tell you about themselves. Some will be very secretive.

Some of them may be friendly, some may be mean. Some you may have to make friends with as though they are a new person.

Some will not know of the others. They may be taught who the others are. Some will know the "history". Most will not.

There may be a "sergeant at arms" alter who will defend. He may be pugilistic.

Puffer


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#372145 - 10/11/11 03:53 PM Re: From hell to heaven and back again [Re: pufferfish]
Disappointed Offline


Registered: 08/11/09
Posts: 540
Loc: U.S.A.
Thank you, Puffer. I know the ones I know so well, I don't need a journal.

Is it okay to ask them what they know? If they know of the abuse?

What about others I've never been introduced to? If there are secretive ones, how do I get them to speak up?

As for one, he likes drama (his word), and he likes the game, but he wants to be pushed into it. He is pugilistic. He likes the game. How do I convey to him I want what's best for him? That I care about him? I feel I must play the game to get his attention, then I have leeway.

_________________________
Female.

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#372146 - 10/11/11 03:55 PM Re: From hell to heaven and back again [Re: Disappointed]
Disappointed Offline


Registered: 08/11/09
Posts: 540
Loc: U.S.A.
I think I've tried asking them what they like. Don't think I got too far. We probably got sidetracked. What kinds of things are these "shut-ins" likely to like? Seriously, It seems if I have specific activities to ask about it might draw them out.

_________________________
Female.

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#372147 - 10/11/11 03:58 PM Re: From hell to heaven and back again [Re: Disappointed]
Disappointed Offline


Registered: 08/11/09
Posts: 540
Loc: U.S.A.
And as far as teaching them who the others are, will it upset them to find out they are one of many? How do I broach that?

_________________________
Female.

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#372191 - 10/12/11 02:00 AM Re: From hell to heaven and back again [Re: Pie]
Pie Offline


Registered: 05/27/11
Posts: 61
Wow thanks everyone

You have all given me so much to ponder. In terms of support I will say I have been all in over the years even before HE realized he needed it.

With ref to the alters I think if I had to approach this right now he would think I have lost my mind. So I will do some journalling and see if there are any patterns before I tackle that part of healing.

Just a thought, next time he goes off at how unsupportive I am and starts the verbal abuse and threats again should I pack up the little ones and leave?

Thank you all for your support and care
Pie


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#372207 - 10/12/11 09:13 AM Re: From hell to heaven and back again [Re: Pie]
hopeandtry Offline


Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 476
In my opinion, you have the right to set whatever boundaries are healthy for YOU and your children. I had to do this with my ex. For instance, when he started using sexual innuendo (after I told him it wasn't okay) when we were trying to keep things platonic, I would either call him on it or just end the conversation. That is a more mild example, but my old T told me "People only drive you as crazy as you let them" and that unless I set boundaries and KEPT them, he wasn't going to keep them himself. You have to SHOW him how you want to be treated...trust me, words won't matter if you let it go on. That doesn't mean you have to be mean about it, just matter-of-fact ("Sorry, but this is unacceptable, these are the consequences" and then follow through.) That being said, I am not suggesting leaving is the answer...only you can really decide that. I would suggest discussing this with a T if possible.


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#372214 - 10/12/11 11:10 AM Re: From hell to heaven and back again [Re: hopeandtry]
Disappointed Offline


Registered: 08/11/09
Posts: 540
Loc: U.S.A.
I have to say, I do agree the consequences are the most important thing for them. If you leave, then he'll know you're serious. Otherwise, it's just a lot of background noise.

_________________________
Female.

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#372217 - 10/12/11 11:49 AM Re: From hell to heaven and back again [Re: Disappointed]
whome Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/07/11
Posts: 1736
Loc: Johannesburg South Africa
I found that FOR ME, life was all about controlling the environment I was in.

I would control my wife and child through mentally, verbally and financially abusing them.

Once my wife developed some "balls" so to speak, I was no longer in control, and therefore loosing touch with "MY REALITY".

Once this progressed and I no longer listened and crossed boundaries that she had set for herself, She got the courage to ask me to leave.

FOR ME, this was the one single act, that was the key to me opening up and listening to her and myself and healing. My mind opened to the possibility that there was another way to live, A better way to live, It may not be easy but it is worth it.

Bear in mind, that if you do ask him to leave, then YOU must be prepared to live with that decision, Good or bad you need to follow through. If you do not, you will be sucked back into the abyss of his world, and he will again "control" the environment around him. Back in his comfort zone.

_________________________
Matrix Men South Africa
Survivors Supporting Each other
Matrix Men Blog

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