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#369783 - 09/08/11 07:11 PM Question About Shame
Driftwood Offline


Registered: 05/27/11
Posts: 86
Loc: Colorado
Who decides who feels shame?

Iíve been thinking about this a lot lately after reading stuff on the introductions forum and other places on this site. I canít help but find myself shocked at what some abusers are capable of, even though I know (as the poet says) ďthere is nothing one human being will not do another.Ē Even innocent children get tortured. But Iím trying to puzzle something out, and maybe some of you guys out there can help me.

Physical wounds heal. (I have an inch long scar across the base of my penis, which I got at twelve or thirteen.) But of all that was done to us, why is it that one of the deepest, longest-lasting wounds is shame? Sometimes I wonder if that isnít the greatest power a human being can have, the ability to make another person feel ashamed. And that power gets abused all the time. Bad parenting. Bad religion. Bad teachers. People get intoxicated by it. Itís like a kind of madness, finding a way to have sway over people, and then deciding for those youíve succeeded in manipulating what they should feel bad about, convincing them theyíre at fault, that theyíre naughty, disgusting, evil. And so much in the society seems to reinforce this. Why do we let this happen?

If you could break the back of that thing, clear out shame, completely, the rest of recovery from abuse would be so much easier. Anybody have any advice, techniques, thoughts on this?


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#369784 - 09/08/11 07:48 PM Re: Question About Shame [Re: Driftwood]
kb8715 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 808
Drift;

First I am so sorry for that scar. Horrible man. I'm glad you are here and can honestly face this.

I don't feel shame anymore. For me the key was to realize I was a crime victim. It was not sex. It was abuse. Once I took it out from the realm of an activity I connect with a woman I love (the mother of my kids) I started to heal.

I've seen a few men get the difference and also give up the first wave of hurt and shame.

I tell guys we make love with people we care about and love.
It aint the criminal acts a monster did to me as a boy.

He has the shame not me. Hope in Hell he feels it.

Be well.

Keith

_________________________
"You can get far in life by pushing except through a door marked PULL...." Profile quote in my oldest son's senior year HS Yearbook.

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#369790 - 09/08/11 08:25 PM Re: Question About Shame [Re: kb8715]
Freedom49 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 2723
Loc: Washington State
Driftwood I deal with this a lot for several reasons.
First is that what was done to me was what so many of my peers and friends at the time called nasty and queer.
Second that I liked some or most of it and eventually went back and initiated conctact again and again.
Third because it made me feel freakish and different from other boys and eventually men.
Fourth because it was my dad that did it. Someone I trusted and wanted to look up to and be proud of and brag on to my friends. Someone I needed and loved and did not love or need me for anything else but that.
Fifth because it assualted the very core of who I am as a male and a man and those are subtly two different things.

Sexual assualt, premature sexualization of a child is an assualt on their soulish being. You got over your wound on your penis. There is a scar but I will wager you don't give it much thought anymore. I broke my arm once. It hurt for a bit, I wore a cast for a while till it healed and I never think about it any more. Even if someone had assualted me and broke it instead of my falling out of a tree, after a while I would not give it any thought.

Someone can sexually molest or rape a child one time and they will still be weeping about it in their counselor's office or on their pillow at midnight 60 years later. It does something terrible to one's perception of who they are as a man or woman and it is very difficult to get over without help. It can completely ruin any chance of real intimacy.

Just my thoughts

Roger


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#369812 - 09/09/11 02:30 AM Re: Question About Shame [Re: Freedom49]
overcomer4life Offline


Registered: 02/25/09
Posts: 198
VERY DEEP! I am 38. My CSA happened at ages 5 and 8. Years..no, DECADES later, I still feel shame. It wasn't my fault. I didn't do anything (until after the 2nd time when I started liking it and thinking it was normal), but I feel shame...lots of it.

I see "normal" guys and always wonder what I would be like if I turned out to be one of them. I'll never know...but uh...okay.

Thanks for sharing, man.


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#369821 - 09/09/11 08:05 AM Re: Question About Shame [Re: overcomer4life]
Mountainous Buck Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/15/09
Posts: 1626
Loc: Minnesota
Ive had some good T's and good men who have helped me walk thru my shame. Owning my part in shame in my life was and is the foundation for expelling the deeper shame that owned me for years-

This deep shame was thrust upon my by abuse-sexual, physical,'emotional-and it rightfully belongs back at the feet of those who pounded it into me.

Actually feeling this deep down and vomiting it out of me was helpful- and acknowledge that is was foreign to my true self. I've had several opportunities to feel at this deep level in the presence of trusted people to witness and guide me, and it is powerful and liberating.

Even just writing down what I feel shame about helps me process and work thru it.'I see it for what it is and defy my old belief that shame would kill me if imever let it out.

I also recognize the choices in my life that trigger my shame - I need integrity and accountability to help me not entangle myself in the webs of shame, fear, anxiety, and rationalization that keeps me stuck and small.

_________________________
We have to take responsibility for what we're not responsible for.

ďIt doesn't matter where you've come from,
It matters where you go" Frank Turner

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#369845 - 09/09/11 03:57 PM Re: Question About Shame [Re: Mountainous Buck]
Driftwood Offline


Registered: 05/27/11
Posts: 86
Loc: Colorado
Roger,

I like what you say that "Sexual assault, premature sexualization of a child is an assault on their soulish being." It's also true that I got over the wound on my penis. "There is a scar but I will wager you don't give it much thought anymore." True. Almost never think about it. In trying to work through shame, though, itís come up.

I put that scar there. I did that to myself. Difficult circumstances. But what kind of adolescent boy hurts himself that way? Maybe if I could answer that, Iíd stop feeling ashamed over it.

Anyway, thatís what I decided two years ago. I wasnít going to feel shame anymore. No more shame. Iíd either stop doing things that made me feel bad about myself or change my attitudes toward my behaviors. I stopped doing some things, gave myself more latitude with others, and made some progress. But I discovered the problem is much deeper than Iíd imagined.

Itís like Iím trying to figure out the way reality works. When you read a novel, it temporarily takes you out of your world (if itís a good novel). Itís like a separate reality that exists alongside your reality. You can get lost in it, but you always come back. Youíre never confused about it being this made up thing. But there are other things out there, like messages from sexual abuse, that are so powerful that they do confuse your sense of reality. Instead of being something separate that exists alongside you (like the fictional world), it usurps your reality. You get subsumed by the thing. The message is: This is who you are. Or itís not even a separate message. You just move into life believing this is reality.

Or itís like Iím wearing a set of invisible pre>

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#369846 - 09/09/11 04:01 PM Re: Question About Shame [Re: Driftwood]
Driftwood Offline


Registered: 05/27/11
Posts: 86
Loc: Colorado
Buck,

You say about shame, ďActually feeling this deep down and vomiting it out of me was helpful- and acknowledge that is was foreign to my true self. I've had several opportunities to feel at this deep level in the presence of trusted people to witness and guide me, and it is powerful and liberating. Even just writing down what I feel shame about helps me process and work thru it.Ē

You reminded me of something. I ran track in high school and had this persistent stitch in my side when I ran. I tried everything, diet changes, fluid intake, etc. Nothing helped. Coach took me aside one day, told me that instead of trying to pull away from the pain, do the exact opposite. Go into the pain. Breathe into it, try to make it hurt as much as possible. Wise man. Actually cured my problem. Maybe Iím still trying NOT to feel the shame. Itís like Iím cringing inside. I think of things and cringe, pull away, when what I need to do is feel them, go ahead and feel the shame ďdeep downĒ as you say. Breathe into it. Hang my head if I need to, but not pull away. Just admit, yes I did this, I did that. Turn red if I need to, but stop running from it.


I can try writing more of it out as you suggest. Iíve already done some of that on this site. Discovered it didnít kill me. Iím sorry for you guys who have to read it, but nothing has helped me more.


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#369865 - 09/10/11 10:40 AM Re: Question About Shame [Re: Driftwood]
TJ jeff Offline

Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 3389
Loc: Northern Wisconsin
Quote:
But what kind of adolescent boy hurts himself that way?
I can answer that question from personal experience - this boy hurt himself out of anger that it felt good when his uncle was doing the things that he did - he hurt himself because his adolescent mind was just starting to understand that what his uncle was doing was not ok for him to be doing and his young mind was feeling much shame over it feeling good and so this was his way of making it not feel good

I guess that what I am saying is that in my own persoanl experience it was just my way of punishing myself (and I knew a LOT about punishment thanks to my mother) for something that felt good that I knew should'nt feel as good as it did

took me a LOT of years to learn that the anger and shame needs to be placed on the person that did things to my body that should not have been done

_________________________
Who will cry for the little boy? - I will... - Antwone Fisher

Abuse happens in silence/isolation - Recovery happens only when that silence/isolation is broken...

TJ's History

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#369868 - 09/10/11 01:48 PM Re: Question About Shame [Re: TJ jeff]
CheerfulJohn Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/10
Posts: 149
Loc: England (at the moment)
"But what kind of adolescent boy hurts himself that way?"

I can also answer that question Driftwood, this boy hurt himself......for years too....it seems like a miracle that I still have one. About 5 years ago I stopped cutting, strangulating, burning around there. (One other thing i stopped at 19, I started again about 1 year ago....when i was doing it I felt in control and free from some of the other torment. Still struggling with that.)

I do think the more we see that the shame is not ours but the perps, culture, family, school. etc the more I'm free from this kind of thing.

I did many things that no healthy child would do......

Be well Driftwood

CJ

_________________________
Wolves will live with lambs. Leopards will lie down with goats. Calves, young lions, and year-old lambs will be together, and little children will lead them.

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#369969 - 09/12/11 12:16 PM Re: Question About Shame [Re: CheerfulJohn]
Driftwood Offline


Registered: 05/27/11
Posts: 86
Loc: Colorado
Thank you TJ jeff and thank you CheerfulJohn.

I can see how punishing oneself for feeling pleasure works. Your dick betrays you by responding in an abusive situation, so you punish yourself. And CJís example of re-experiencing torment and pain on purpose also makes sense to me. When you inflict pain on yourself, itís a way to manage the fear aspect, perhaps, of abuse. You experience the pain, but youíre in control. You have power over it.

What I love about this site (one of the truly good things about the internet) is that I can get to the truth of things, hear the truth from others and tell it myself. Or try to tell it myself. I like to talk about the importance of telling the truth, but bottom line is Iím not really that good at it myself. Iím still too concerned with how I appear and what you guys are going to think of me. Or Iím scared someone will find out who I am (I have a small public persona). I want to be liked and admired. I hone sentences, turns of phrase, etc., hoping others will see me as intelligent. Itís like Iím trying to compensate for shameful things Iíve done (like catching wasps in a jar and then sticking my dick in the jar).

Well, that was honest. Iím back and forth between liking myself and being disgusted with myself. I either have to shine or wallow. Whereís the middle ground? Why canít I just be an average normal person and let myself be? Maybe with the help of you guys and the good example you set, I can at least move toward that goal.


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