Newest Members
BusterJones, Desperateforhelp, aniceguy, Green_Lantern, Safe11ride
12121 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
corvairman1 (43), marianne (44), son (35), speedy (31)
Who's Online
1 registered (1 invisible), 60 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
12121 Members
73 Forums
62521 Topics
438140 Posts

Max Online: 418 @ 07/02/12 07:29 AM
Twitter
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#367952 - 08/11/11 10:22 PM Why confronted abusers make lousy supporters
SamV Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 5925
Loc: Talladega, Alabama, USA
Yep, that's what I was expecting when I confronted my abusers.

I mean, when I approached them, these pillars in my life that had made a few mistakes... criminally felonious mistakes, they were still mostly good people. They were trapped in the messages that abuse was perpetrated against them, so too they could abuse. No one had told them their parents and relatives were wrong, so they felt they too could abuse.

I have gone through intensive research and recovery, I have built up to this moment. No, not the first meeting, the actual confrontation, that was gonna be full of anger and resentment, guilt and fear, and it was. But the second meeting, when they asked for forgiveness, and I figured they would have many questions for me, and I could enlighten them on what they were trapped in, and we could become close knit survivors, progressing and recovering together.

Instead, I get a dry, "we have made some mistakes", and the very next thought was, "do you forgive me?!?!" they fully expecting me to do just that. And that is their life, no matter what I wanted, I knew them to be that way, cut and dry, matter-of-fact. I knew what to expect, but I did not listen, my perception was awash with conjecture and speculation.

No one, well, almost no one, can put aside the guilt and the fear of being confronted, and empathize with the survivor. It is not meant to be, so I will not be bitter about it.

"I will not be bitter about it"... but I am now. Where is the support and encouragement I received when I was younger, the tender care I desired when I hurt myself, where is it now?

Only I can support and protect me, encourage growth and dress my wounds, only I with my beliefs and convictions, my fellow survivors and my God, only we can heal me.

_________________________
My SENSITIVE Difference

"Lets talk about that."

Go Get A Hug: HUG>porn

*When provoked* "Anyone holding back his sayings is possessed of knowledge. (Proverbs 17:27)"

Top
#370718 - 09/22/11 01:15 AM Re: Why confronted abusers make lousy supporters [Re: SamV]
Thebo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 326
Loc: NYC
You got my support, mister.


Top
#370768 - 09/22/11 03:15 PM Re: Why confronted abusers make lousy supporters [Re: Thebo]
SamV Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 5925
Loc: Talladega, Alabama, USA
(((thebo)))

That means a great deal to me, thank you.

Sam

_________________________
My SENSITIVE Difference

"Lets talk about that."

Go Get A Hug: HUG>porn

*When provoked* "Anyone holding back his sayings is possessed of knowledge. (Proverbs 17:27)"

Top
#370795 - 09/22/11 11:53 PM Re: Why confronted abusers make lousy supporters [Re: SamV]
MrEdd Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/24/03
Posts: 316
Loc: Texas
Maybe I am still a little incomplete in my forgiveness. My first thought was:

Why confronted abusers make lousy supporters...
...You didn't fill them with enough concrete.

_________________________
Some Things are not problems to be solved, rather, they are facts which must be coped with over time.

Top
#370830 - 09/23/11 12:20 PM Re: Why confronted abusers make lousy supporters [Re: MrEdd]
zraver Offline


Registered: 09/23/11
Posts: 31
Loc: Conway, Arkansas
We don't forgive them for them, we forgive them for us. When we forgive we take back the power they stole from us. rage and resentment almost killed me twice- its poison and me drinking it and expecting them to get sick isn't going to happen.

But forgiveness has the power to convict their hearts. If they are human at all anyway. And if they aren't, at least I stopped drinking the cool-aid.

_________________________
How can some stuff last so long and be so fresh and yet I can't have that memory for good stuff.

Top
#370839 - 09/23/11 02:15 PM Re: Why confronted abusers make lousy supporters [Re: zraver]
SamV Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 5925
Loc: Talladega, Alabama, USA
Ha! Mredd, I hear yah brother, sometimes the hole isnt deep enough.

Zraver, sweet ride... honda 2000? I really enjoy your insight. You have been in deep recovery, it shows. Forgiving is tricky, how can I forgive what I could not fully comprehend? The damage was so intrusive and extensive I had no concept of the effects that so completely controlled me.
Forgiving me was a longer road, but the journey.., well I wouldn't have missed it.
Welcome to ms, I am enjoying your replied and look forward to interacting with you soon.

Sam

_________________________
My SENSITIVE Difference

"Lets talk about that."

Go Get A Hug: HUG>porn

*When provoked* "Anyone holding back his sayings is possessed of knowledge. (Proverbs 17:27)"

Top
#370851 - 09/23/11 03:40 PM Re: Why confronted abusers make lousy supporters [Re: SamV]
MartinB Offline


Registered: 09/13/11
Posts: 22
Loc: New Jersey
I also confronted two of the four men who abused me as a child. In court, one of my perps constantly told the judge and my attorneys that "I seduced him." He was 39 when the abuse started, and I was 7 yrs. old. I've always wondered how a 7 year-old can seduce an older man. But that's how these guys operate, and even after years of placing the blame on the victim, they continue to use that bullshit to blame the victim later on, even when he was suppose to be defending himself in court.

Two of my perps are dead, one is in prison, and another is a "still" Catholic priest. Never once did anyone ever apologize to me and my family. Not the men who abused me and not the institutional church that protected the men who abused me. They instead continued to put the pressure on me, my family, and insinuated that the abuse was my fault and that these men did something that was merely a "lapse of judgment" that it was only a one time thing and never happened with any other boys. I would find out several years ago that at least of the two priests who abused me also abused other young boys, and that one of the two family friends who abused me when I was very young, was serving a prison term for raping a 6 yr. boy and his 10 yr.-old sister.

Even when these guys are caught and confronted it has been my experience that they still act like the animals they have always been.

_________________________
Please call me Martin. One of my abusers would call me "Marty" and it just brings back too many awful memories.

Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.- Winston Churchill

Top
#370854 - 09/23/11 03:47 PM Re: Why confronted abusers make lousy supporters [Re: MartinB]
SamV Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 5925
Loc: Talladega, Alabama, USA
MartinB, man, that was a raw post. It is hard to hear that the most we can expect from the abusers, even before a judge with all the evidence is that it was not their fault, and it probably was the victims.

Like a dog that has chewed through all the clothes and garbage in the house, and then whimpers when one scolds. Even dogs will roll over and expose their bellies, signalling submission to the authority, these "men" are not fit to be called animals.

I feel your frustration, MB, keep posting, keep sharing, and let the world no they cannot hold you down.

Sam

_________________________
My SENSITIVE Difference

"Lets talk about that."

Go Get A Hug: HUG>porn

*When provoked* "Anyone holding back his sayings is possessed of knowledge. (Proverbs 17:27)"

Top
#370857 - 09/23/11 04:15 PM Re: Why confronted abusers make lousy supporters [Re: SamV]
MartinB Offline


Registered: 09/13/11
Posts: 22
Loc: New Jersey
Yeah Sasuva. I even have letters from one of the priests telling me that he would like us to get together for coffee. He started writing me letters about 3 years before i filed a civil suit against him. I have a tape recording of him essentially admitting on the phone about "the great times in the king size bed together" cause he always rented hotel rooms with one bed when he took me on trips. Not to mention I told the judge that he had taking lewd photographs of me while all this was going on but nothing has ever been recovered. I have the letters and the tape recordings and somehow he's got the sack to blame me still?

These guys just don't get it. That's how screwed up in the head they really are.

_________________________
Please call me Martin. One of my abusers would call me "Marty" and it just brings back too many awful memories.

Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.- Winston Churchill

Top
#370861 - 09/23/11 05:28 PM Re: Why confronted abusers make lousy supporters [Re: MartinB]
Vadrian Offline


Registered: 09/10/11
Posts: 110
Loc: Pacific
It is true that confronting our abusers in person often just leads to more hurt. I find it is much better to write letters, and simply tear up any response that comes in. This allows us to let things out and empower ourselves with our own voice, without fear or censorship. I also think the moral demand that we deny our feelings and rights in order to forgive our abusers is very harmful. It helps them win, especially when it leads to the promulgation of abusive families. Alice Miller wrote two great articles on the subject:
http://www.alice-miller.com/articles_en.php?lang=en&nid=48&grp=11
http://www.alice-miller.com/articles_en.php?lang=en&nid=52&grp=11



Edited by Vadrian (09/23/11 05:30 PM)

Top
#371161 - 09/27/11 01:31 PM Re: Why confronted abusers make lousy supporters [Re: Vadrian]
1lifenow Offline


Registered: 03/07/11
Posts: 385
Loc: west coast
This is a crazy powerful post. A 3 year boy was abducted recently in canada http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2011/09/07/...n_n_953183.html

Miraculously and ironically on such a sad date, there was so much joy.
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2011/09/13/randall-hopley-arrested-kienan-hebert-alberta_n_960220.html

So through the tears of joy I read that this little boy's father has already 'forgiven' the abductor. "There's two ways that you can look at it: You can feed hate or you can feed love. They're both characters. Hate is a very hungry animal and I just don't choose to feed that animal," Hebert told reporters earlier in the day. Wow, thats a lot of resolution in so few words. All it did was piss me off.

How can you have forgiveness without contrition? Sasuva "we have made some mistakes" is not even close. Forgiveness is bullshit if it does not start with an act of redemption being sought by the perpitrator. Without it, the whole thing is empty and one-sided and again the victim is the one who is bending. What part of that pattern is any different from the powerlessness of the put upon child.

A perpetrator can NEVER ask for forgiveness. That comes from a place of ego. Only the abused can offer it, and to me that can only come when the abuser truly by deeds, not words shows remorse and a willingness to make things as right as possible going forward. And it must be upon much reflection, rumination, time and compassion. The abuser apologizing can't be knee jerk reaction or be puked out like some 24 hour flu.

In my case my perp is dead. But those tentacles still reached so far thru time. It took a lot of work to get to the point that I knew a pattern shift had to come, somehow?. I was lucky enough to find a great therapist, do bodywork recovery then only by chance at a mindfull yoga class did it all came together.

The thoughtful young man read the following poem b4 yoga as we sat on our mats having ginger tea:

"Forgiveness is the cash you need.
All the other kinds of silver really buy just strange things.
Everything has its music.
Everything has genes of God inside.
But learn from those courageous addicted lovers
of glands and opium and gold --
Look, they cannot jump high or laugh long
when they are whirling.
And the moon and the stars become sad
when their tender light is used for night wars.
Forgiveness is part of the treasure you need
to craft your falcon wings
And return to your true realm
of Divine freedom."

In that instant I knew that forgiveness wasn't about absolving anyone but me. I so desparately wanted my falcon wings. But I all too well understood the feeling of whirling to the addictions that made the moon and stars pale and indeed see life itself used for a purpose that goes against its very core. We all seek to know and return to what should have rightfully been our true sense of self and destiny. So many what ifs.

Later, I sobbed on the therapists table as we were going over why that little boy had stayed frozen, cold, isolated and hidden from even himself for so long. I can't remember what the trigger was but the emotion was all there.

The memory of those times and events and the effects it has had on me when all the time I just minimized it - " It was just something that happened". The words of the poem came to me and I just knew that the cycle and the pattern could go on into infinity or I could unshacle myself. It was time for me to craft my wings. So forgiveness really had nothing to do with him or them or whatever. It was about me lifting off the earth under my own lightness. The tears turned to paroxysms of release both of anger and joy. I was never going to be held down again.

Forgiveness is first and formost something that is about us. If time and compassion allow for more, even better. But physically forgiving someone in the here and now is almost irrelevant. Its about the little frozen stuck boy. Its about what he needs.

If you never have any expectations of how the abuser will or wont respond or make ammends you can never be hurt or disappointed. I just don't see how that risk of putting your eggs back in that basket could ever be worth it. I like what you said - you have to dress and care for your wounds, not keep pealing back the bandaid to see if the scar has healed.

Maybe we dont need to weigh the concept of confrontation so heavily. We can't know where their heads are really all we can do is hold their feet to the fire. But what happens after that is up to them.

Ultimately, I don't even know as its so much forgiveness as letting it go. Not just saying it happened, but understanding it and how it affected you but not letting it win. Forgiveness is about us forgiving ourselves, forgiving what happened to us, and forgiving that we didnt know how to get out of the abyss that encompassed us.

But absolution to the abuser to me thats not the same as forgiveness, thats got to be about them acknowledging what they did to us. But we have no power over that, and so its something we cannot control, worry about or be disappointed by. Their flippant "lapse of judgement" or having made " a few mistakes" to us is so huge and staggering that they will unlikely ever be even capable of seeing it. Like MartinB so elequently showed that even with the evidence in front of them, their eyes are shut. And quite frankly we can't let their pathological myopia limit our vision of ourselves. We have to unhook those concepts that somehow if we dont forgive THEM we can't go forward. What kind of psychobable bunk is that?!?

It took courage to survive, it takes more to know that the currency we need is in all of us.

_________________________
The need for love lies at the very foundation of human existence. Dalai Lama

WoR Barrie 2011

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >


Moderator:  ModTeam, TJ jeff 

I agree that my access and use of the MaleSurvivor discussion forums and chat room is subject to the terms of this Agreement. AND the sole discretion of MaleSurvivor.
I agree that my use of MaleSurvivor resources are AT-WILL, and that my posting privileges may be terminated at any time, and for any reason by MaleSurvivor.