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#367655 - 08/08/11 12:49 AM Anti-Disclosure Reality
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6401
Loc: 2.5 NATO Nations
After having been personally run through the hot coals and seen countless others' total destruction, I've come to the firm conclusion that "CSA Disclosure to ANYONE not properly positioned for reciept of the news, ought NEVER happen."

Who is "Properly-positioned?"

NO family members: Even spouses whom have sworn alliance to you have NO farging clue how to handle such news and then deal with our requisit healing steps. The spouses don't need to know! I FULLY believe that we cannot heal while dealing with the anguish of our spouses that will be labelled abundantly with our names.

NO Parents: I don't think anyone above age 12 ought to tell any parent...ever. They will never look at you in a good light again. They will trip all over their freaking tounges and your emotions with stupid, ill-informed questions and postulations that will metasticize like an agressive cancer in your soul. They questions and second-guessing will hang in the air over you for EVER. "Will Johnny be gay?" "Why didn't he stop it sooner?" They simply DON'T need to know...ever!

NO Clergy: When I meet a member of the clergy who can handle the news of CSA, I'll change my position for THAT ONE PERSON. in the interrim, I include ALL clergy as being fully inept in dealing with us and our pain.

Is all this "unfair?" Maybe, but the hell that will likely shower down upon you is off-the-charts unfair. So don't even look at this on a scale of a "fairness" continuum. Look at it instead as a direct-missile-hit you don't need to take and may not survive.

The myths are a real and monsterously large issue we all have to deal with. NO ONE but those properly-positioned people even begin to understand this aspect to our servival.

So who IS properly positioned to hear our story? Its a darn short list!

Those who are educated and trained to deal with the CSA stories properly and will not be legally able to betray us. i.e.: Therepists.

We've seen betrayal and torture at asstounding scales. No one wants to hear this from us. I wish I had NEVER trusted ANYONE with this except a T. "Telling our story" is the one aspect of the Mike Lew convention that simply does not hold water. No good can ever come from an adult disclosing CSA to any ill-prepared and fully educated people.


Copying to F&F for their comments.

_________________________
Wishing You Were Here!

The Aftermath Video

The Water Buffalo Song

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#367662 - 08/08/11 01:26 AM Re: Anti-Disclosure Reality [Re: Still]
Sacred_Sage Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/07
Posts: 141
Hello,

I don't want to offend you, and I certainly don't mean to if I do. A lot of what you have said has some merit, but not quite all. I can only relate to you from my experience, and since I don't know what you went through my understanding compared to yours may be inadequate. Basically, I cannot judge you.

I am a strange bird. I am a clergy member (in my church and at a very young age which is not strange in the religious belief I have). I am also a CSA survivor. I am also being trained in social work as well as researching therapies for people who are abused. Does this make me able to help you or others? No, not really. Do I still have trouble telling people I was abused? You bet it.

In my experience, I have always been late telling people that I was abused; however, I spend a lot of time with a person before I go out and spill the beans. I slowly bring it up over time, and often, I just let the matter drop to see how they react to what I say. When I feel comfortable enough and I think they'll receive some insight into my personality, then I disclose.

I have been helped greatly by sharing my story, and my unique point of view being a young, CSA survivor, clergy member. I have learned that there are many like us who are out there. Many of them going through the same issues that I have. We talk and talk and talk about different issues (much like we do on here). It seems to be mutually beneficial.

I will relay that this is my experience, and I can only rely on what I know. I know that this way of wizardry or hog-wash or therapy or whatever you call it... doesn't work for everyone. It took a long time for me to find something that I was comfortable with... I saw three therapists before I found the right match on my beliefs and standing. After the second session, I felt really relieved because the T's personality and my personality matched up.

Of course, I'm a self-help kinda guy. I was reluctant to let others in. I told my friends (they still don't know how to help me, but that's okay. Least I know they try to do their best), and my family (since my mom is a survivor and my dad's father was a perp) are very understanding... though I will say that they are even more protective of me than what I would like, but I do my own thing regardless of what they say or do... cause I am me.

I am sure you're hurting, but I want to say that I am here for you even if that doesn't mean too much to you at the moment. I'll repeat that again too... I. am. here. for. you. (if you want it and even if you don't want it). smile

I'm hoping that you'll find that right balance, and you can move forward... cause standing still doesn't help anyone.

Let me know what I can do for you if you want anything done.

Cameron

_________________________
http://youtu.be/HL297ZTYVRM <---- In case you ever wondered what I sound like.

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#367663 - 08/08/11 01:39 AM Re: Anti-Disclosure Reality [Re: Sacred_Sage]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6401
Loc: 2.5 NATO Nations
Hey Cameron,

Its been a while and very good to see you here.

Getting right to the dance: I've had collar-curling encounters with clergy that ought to be drummed out of the flok-leading biz until they get their act together on reality. I mean stories that blister the psychy and soul abound!

Do realize though that much of my disclosure was taken out of my control via divorce procedings and the subsequent public and published record my healing journal became. OH...I need to add Judiciary! Evryone I personally trusted with my story (with the exception of two) pulled the most magnificent dissapearing act.

AMMENDMENT: NO Judiciary! Have not met nor heard of the judge that realizes the myths are myths. Drag before me the exceptions and I shall record said exception to this rule.

Anyway...have you ever seen a 5-yo girl-victim of a 12 yo boy-perp shown the door of the church? I have. I love my Lord and savior Jesus Christ, but I hate and fear people who THINK they are his in a theme of non-righteous rule and judgements...but they are for him to "chastise." (crackle-crackle)

_________________________
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The Aftermath Video

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#367667 - 08/08/11 02:11 AM Re: Anti-Disclosure Reality [Re: Still]
Kaene Offline


Registered: 07/04/11
Posts: 40
Loc: Ausin, TX
There is definite logic to what you've said, but also there are some things that I just can't agree with. Everyone's situation is different, that is sure, but when bringing someone into the loop is a vital part of our healing, what then?

Quote:
NO family members: Even spouses


I came clean to my wife about 3 months ago. About everything, the abuse, the rape, the confused feelings, the SSA (but not the prostitution). So far although she can't understand the true depths of my suffering, she has been an angel. She understands that I'm in pain, if not exactly how deep the pain runs. She's done her best to accept the SSA and incorporate it into our life, and my honesty has brought us closer together as a couple. She hasn't had any sexual abuse in her past that I know of, but she has had a very rough childhood of which I won't speak because it's not my story to tell. She understands and my willingness to deal with my issues has deepened our bond. There are times where we have miscommunications and misunderstandings but we both feel that it has made us stronger.

And what about my brother and I. He is a familly member, and also a perp. And I don't blame him for what he did because he himself is a victim. And how to I reconcile that within myself if I can't talk to him about what happened. Not just between us but everything that's happened to me. How can I ever find closure? And what about those memories I have that are floating just out of reach? How can I find an answer for them if I can't ask him for his story?

Quote:
NO Parents: I don't think anyone above age 12 ought to tell any parent...ever.


This one is a little more grey for me, but something I feel I need to do. I know my parents blame themselves for my substance abuse, and my father constantly lectures me to this day about what I should could and have to do. I barely talk to them and it has nothing to do with my dad's behaviour, I know it's just his way of telling me that he loves me. And I lean on them financially whenever things get rough. So how do I explain to them that I think they are the best parents that a kid could ask for, how do I appologize for what I've become if I can't explain to them why I am who I am today? How can I possibly come to believe that I have done nothing wrong when I can't share my experiences with the 2 people who are supposed to love me no matter what?

Quote:
NO Clergy


I'm with you on this one, not only am I an athiest, but I'm also a second hand survivor of clerical abuse. Having a masters in divinity does not make you a therapist/marriage counsilor, and please stop pretending that it does.

I have yet to talk to my brother or my parents, but this is something I've been really struggling with lately, I know you have had very bad experiences in all these areas but I have to hope that your story is not the rule, or at least that my own will be an exception. When I told my wife I fully expected it to be the end of our marriage and probably my legal fatherhood, but instead it has been the start of something greater. I continue to hope that disclosure to the people who matter most to me will be therapeutic rather than destructive.

I may be naieve, but I'm also optimistic.

_________________________
"Do you think God lets you plea bargain?" - Calvin & Hobbes

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#367684 - 08/08/11 08:26 AM Re: Anti-Disclosure Reality [Re: Kaene]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6401
Loc: 2.5 NATO Nations
Originally Posted By: Kaene
There is definite logic to what you've said, but also there are some things that I just can't agree with. Everyone's situation is different, that is sure, but when bringing someone into the loop is a vital part of our healing, what then?


Kaene. I'm sure you realize this, but just to be sure, this is my position on disclosure after 4-years of post-disclosure observation and first-hand experience.

I just want to say, I was exactly where you are in your reply....100%. I thought and felt that Little Robbie needed to be heard at least "loved ones" be advised as to why my life was so different...why it was falling apart all around me, etc. Little Robbie had a right to be heard. It was high-time for him to be heard.

I am in full agreement with all I've stated above. NOW, however, I realized the reality of human reactions, acting, intent, desecption and organic inability to help. Rather, humans seem much more likely to destroy than to fix, heal or support. It IS my experience. It IS my observation. I felt I needed to advise outside hikers of the mine-fields before they tread here.

_________________________
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The Aftermath Video

The Water Buffalo Song

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#367686 - 08/08/11 08:46 AM Re: Anti-Disclosure Reality [Re: Still]
kb8715 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 808
Guys we need to measure our experiences purely by our own experiences. N=1 here only.

Abused by my pastor....horrible and unthinkable.

Told my wife.....HUGE SUPPORT.

Told my Catholic Priest (I converted) HUGE COMPASSION AND SUPPORT

A man here I respect greatly (he's a young survivor) is encouraging me to tell my kids. He has done so with his parents and his best freinds and is far ahead of many of us in recovery. Made a deal with him when I do disclose to my kids he will be at a dinner table with them after.

We need to balance our real pain and real suffering with our real successes too.

Sorry guys, with the greatest respect every possible outcome is possible, even good ones....

Be well gents. We all deserve only the best.

Keith

_________________________
"You can get far in life by pushing except through a door marked PULL...." Profile quote in my oldest son's senior year HS Yearbook.

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#367701 - 08/08/11 12:08 PM Re: Anti-Disclosure Reality [Re: kb8715]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6401
Loc: 2.5 NATO Nations
Keith,

I'm absolutely wowed by your experience. Its encouraging that people like yours exist and that a survivor has them in his corner.

Please realize (and you do via N=1) my experience has been fully opposite and I've observed many many like me.

What I WANT is for people to find what you have. I also want them to know the other side.

Reading your account has literally lifted me a bit.

BTW: I've committed to never tell my kids. Past human performance data forecasts bad outcome. Not that my kids are creeps, but that I've never experienced anything good from any family member at all. They are ALL I have left in life, and thus are the glue of what life I have. I don't feel I need them (or want them) to see me being what I was as a child. I'd rather they see me as a mentally-ill being (as they do now).

I would welcome any input on the 'disclosure to kids' element from you and/or your MS frnd if you think it may help.

_________________________
Wishing You Were Here!

The Aftermath Video

The Water Buffalo Song

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#367709 - 08/08/11 12:40 PM Re: Anti-Disclosure Reality [Re: Still]
kb8715 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 808
Hey, I got nothing but love & respect for you as another survivor Robbie. I so wish I could make it better for us all.

Last night a new guy asked why I cared. Simple truth is a year ago I was tossing coins on rolling off a roof (had it picked) or fighting it out. I promised myself when the coin landed on fight, I'd do what I could to pull some other guys with me.

On the kids....scares me Sh*tless. But a man here my oldest son's age pretty much said I followed your advice, when will you follow mine? He's tough scrappy survivor chewing this up and spitting it out. And he always makes sense, thats my dilema now.

Will let ya know how it goes. But I ain't ready yet.

Please be well.....

Keith

_________________________
"You can get far in life by pushing except through a door marked PULL...." Profile quote in my oldest son's senior year HS Yearbook.

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#367710 - 08/08/11 01:20 PM Re: Anti-Disclosure Reality [Re: Still]
well-intended Offline


Registered: 04/15/11
Posts: 124
Loc: Belgium
Originally Posted By: Robbie Brown

Those who are educated and trained to deal with the CSA stories properly and will not be legally able to betray us. i.e.: Therepists.


I, for one, have been mistreated by mental health care. I don't know exactly what laws prevent abuse from mental health care in the US, but here it's perfectly possible to verbally abuse your clients, without repercussions.

"You just love your mommy, don't you?" the psychiatrist said when I told her my mother had violated me. Her tone was suggestive and belittling. That kinda felt like hitting a brick wall. I don't know whether she's sadistic, or has narrowed her mind to Freudian psychoanalysis.

Apparently I can't complain without committing defamation. She's the doctor, I'm the looney. She is right, and I should shut the fuck up and behave. That seems to be the moral of the story.

She also asked whether I was "already" contemplating suicide. Already. That oh so little detail, that one suggestive word...


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#367714 - 08/08/11 03:19 PM Re: Anti-Disclosure Reality [Re: kb8715]
CruxFidelis Offline


Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 486
Loc: NJ
I am dealing with ASA, not CSA, so I don't know if my comments are worth anything on this thread but I have positive disclosure experiences:

A Catholic priest was the first person I told who wasn't a cop. I told him in confession. I initially thought that what happened to me was because I sinned in some way. He told me that the sin was on the rapist's soul, not mine, and he gave me the number for a therapist. He told me that God knows my heart and that if I couldn't get away, it was not my fault.

The therapist he referred me to has been a big source of support for me, but there is not much of a personal relationship with him. I really don't know much about his life and it's not my business. He and I are not best buds, it is a client/therapist relationship. I think there is a huge benefit to telling someone who actually has a relationship with you that is based on friendship or marital intimacy. It means something very different when you get support from a friend, or a spouse.

My siblings have been supportive.

I have told some people who treat me in a healthcare capacity, and they are supportive, or at least not unsupportive.

I have not told my mother, and my father is dead. If it is up to me, she will never know. Not because I don't think she would understand, but because it would upset her to the point where I think it would really harm her peace of mind.

I haven't told my friends, and I am not planning on going there.

I wouldn't have told my wife if it wasn't for hearing stories on here of affirmation and support from their spouses/significant others. It wasn't right to tell her right away, because she had just had a baby and I wanted her to bond with him well without thinking about what happened to me. I told her and she supported me.

My wife has CSA and has told several Catholic priests about it and has never gotten any guilt from clergy. We have a friend who is a nun, and she has been a source of support to her. But she was raped by a therapist, which according to your post, is the only type of person you should tell.

I think, for me, the long and short of it is that there are loving, supportive parents (I hope to put myself in that category) and there are unloving parents. There are supportive, trustworthy spouses, and then there are selfish spouses. There are true friends, and there are fairweather friends.

We don't get to choose our family of origin. Sometimes the people we trusted most can betray us. And sometimes people in certain roles, such as clergy, teachers, therapists or healthcare workers, can betray us too and harm our ability to relate to other innocent people who might have the misfortune of making the same vocational choice as another person who hurt us.

What we can choose, is to surround ourselves with positive people who will build our spirits up, and not cut us down. We can work to make the relationships we have life-giving relationships, rather than relationships that suck the life right out of us. And I believe that there are kind-hearted souls in all walks of life, whether they are parents, spouses, mentors, clergy, therapists, or friends.

That's my experience and that is all I can really offer here.



_________________________
ďIf a man wishes to be sure of the road he treads on, he must close his eyes and walk in the dark.Ē

- Saint John of the Cross

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#367726 - 08/08/11 08:19 PM Re: Anti-Disclosure Reality [Re: CruxFidelis]
Alex22 Offline


Registered: 01/16/11
Posts: 15
"Iíve had time now to read many stories here and talk with a lot of you and Iím feeling a little more comfortable sharing some of my story. During my time here Iíve learned that we can focus on the abuse, but that wonít get us anywhere, we learn the most from stories of survival and growth, itís about how we got away from it all to a better place that is important not where we came from. So here goes nothing as the saying goes, but in reality this is everything.

I had just moved away from home and started my first semester at University. I was having a blast. New friends, new environment, new experience. But something dark kept surfacing in the back of my mind, I knew what it was and was curious why it was managing to break out of that cage Iíd manage to keep it in all these years. I thought maybe I was just having a bad day, Iíd manage to shove it back there. But I didnít.

Only a few of my friends from high school ended up at the same University with me. 5 to be exact, only three of which I am close with, Throughout high school many of my friends were girls, I didnít get along so well with guys, all my relationships were forced and fake. Never really could manage to go hang out or go play hockey, it just never clicked. Looking back I realize how much that caged animal in the back of my mind was controlling my life. But then I met Mike. We were in the same math class, in grade 9 and both ended up playing on a school sports team. We were in History together the next year, then chemistry and society class. As the years went by it got to a point where my fake friendship was almost starting to feel real, I didnít realize this right off the bat but I was almost able to trust him. I felt safe around him. I donít know what it was about him, Iíd tried to be friends with countless other guys but it never really worked out. But back to the beast that was slipping out of its cage.

It was a persistent son of a bitch, clawing constantly at its confines. It was getting to the point where it was managing to throw thoughts into my conscious mind, I guess you guys all call that ďbeing triggeredĒ. So youíve got this battle between my conscious mind and sub conscious creature and now this friendship, my first real friendship with a guy; Two very emotionally unstable events. So Mike in his flawless innocence decides now would be a good time to mention how much our friendship means to him. And the cage broke.

It all came out, I told him everything. I was expecting the worst, I thought the one male friend I had was going to be scared off. But I couldnít have been more wrong. I will never forget the moment I was finished talking and he looked at me and said ďI know Iím not really an emotional person but I really am so sorryĒ as he gave me a hug.

Many of us disclose to a Therapist or Counsellor but fewer of us have disclosed to friends or family. We are afraid of what they will think of us or how they will react. Mike has been the greatest driving force behind my healing, he recommended Counselling, told me he could walk me there if I wanted. He checks in on me and is always there if I need to talk. We all have someone like Mike in our lives even if we canít see them. I recommend searching them out, they are a great asset to our healing and really can show us a different side to things. Find your Mike. Itís worth the risks."

That was one of my posts from a few months back and some things have changed since then. I've broken many of your Do Not Tell rules and have found support and love. I've told my parents. One of the hardest things I have ever had to do. It wasn't fun and it wasn't easy but I don't see them looking at me any differently then before, if anything I think the understand me more for who I am now then ever before.

I know that it hasn't been as easy a ride for everyone here but I really do believe everyone has someone close to them who will trust, love and offer support to them for who they are and what has happened in our past.

_________________________
"If we want to cross
over to the other
shore, we cannot
just run on the same
side of the river."
-Anonymous

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#367727 - 08/08/11 08:26 PM Re: Anti-Disclosure Reality [Re: Alex22]
kb8715 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 808
I encourage you to read this poem Alex wrote on the man he references above. Read it knowing it is about how a freind he disclosed to has helped him in recovery. Awesome shit really.

And yes, like any true friend I know Alex has his bud's back too.

http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=351822#Post351822





Edited by kb8715 (08/08/11 08:37 PM)
Edit Reason: I type like crap......
_________________________
"You can get far in life by pushing except through a door marked PULL...." Profile quote in my oldest son's senior year HS Yearbook.

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#367751 - 08/09/11 01:38 AM Re: Anti-Disclosure Reality [Re: Still]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1181
Loc: New York
Peace,Rainbows & Healing


Edited by lapchinj (03/18/13 06:39 AM)
_________________________
Stick around, It will get better....

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#367773 - 08/09/11 11:42 AM Re: Anti-Disclosure Reality [Re: lapchinj]
Logan81 Offline


Registered: 01/28/11
Posts: 42
Loc: Lubbock, TX
Just tossing in my two cents here, the first person I ever told about my CSA was a pastor at my church. He is more than just a pastor, though; he and I have built a pretty strong friendship over the last few years. As we talked, he disclosed to me that he had been molested once as a child as well. Since then, he has been a huge supporter of me whenever I needed it.

The second person I told was a close friend, followed by a few other friends over time. Some have been understanding and supportive, while some have wondered why I can't just "get over it." Those who I am closest to have been a huge support for me, though; one friend actually confided in me that he was a CSA survivor as well.

Family-wise, my sister is the only one who knows. Most likely, I will never tell my parents. My situation involved an older cousin, who was also abused, and who my parents have been very supportive of. I'm not afraid they would doubt my story, I'm more afraid that they would believe me and begin to see my cousin in a different light. The more I've progressed in healing, the more I've seen that he was just another victim himself, and I really hold no animosity toward him whatsoever. I would hate to do anything that could interfere with his own healing journey.

I hate to hear what happened to you, and from my limited time on this board, I've seen that the same has happened to quite a few others as well. I've wondered a lot how different things would have been if the first person I told (after 23 years of hiding) had shut me down in the way you described. I honestly don't know that I would've had your strength to continue moving forward. Hang in there, brother. It does get better (or so I've heard).


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#367993 - 08/12/11 11:06 AM Re: Anti-Disclosure Reality [Re: Logan81]
kb8715 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 808
Last night a man from here I listen to told me he had successfully disclosed to a good friend who acts like a big brother to him.

I made him read Alex's post above on disclosing to a friend first. It went exactly as it did with Alex, right down to his friend offering to take him down to meet a T when ready.

I also told him to read this post a bunch of time and think of his friend when he read it:

http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=351822#Post351822

There are good people all around us willing to help. you just need to look.

Real proud to know ya Chris. Real Proud to know ya Alex.

_________________________
"You can get far in life by pushing except through a door marked PULL...." Profile quote in my oldest son's senior year HS Yearbook.

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#367995 - 08/12/11 12:02 PM Re: Anti-Disclosure Reality [Re: kb8715]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6401
Loc: 2.5 NATO Nations
Originally Posted By: kb8715
...There are good people all around us willing to help. you just need to look.


I'm not replying in a shove-back or in 'argumentative' mode, but just to state my reality. I have in fact "looked." I've looked throughout churches, one really strange place being 'my family,' men I was close to in church and bible studies where "we could tell each other 'anything.'"

I even told one person with whom I exchanged vows of support and love.

Yes, the good and supportive people are out there...just not here....and I've really eliminated a ton of the pain that comes with dissapointed expectation. I've been here (alone) for a long time before now. I don't like it, but I can handle it.

_________________________
Wishing You Were Here!

The Aftermath Video

The Water Buffalo Song

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#368006 - 08/12/11 04:07 PM Re: Anti-Disclosure Reality [Re: Still]
kb8715 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 808
But you see Robbie I've said to you before you are one of those good people and I'd bet you've helped many here and many in all aspects of your life.

After spending time here you see what a collection of really good men we are. I'm just hoping as ever something releases your undeserved pain and that of everyone here.

Keith

_________________________
"You can get far in life by pushing except through a door marked PULL...." Profile quote in my oldest son's senior year HS Yearbook.

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#368010 - 08/12/11 05:21 PM Re: Anti-Disclosure Reality [Re: kb8715]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1181
Loc: New York
Peace,Rainbows & Healing


Edited by lapchinj (03/18/13 06:39 AM)
_________________________
Stick around, It will get better....

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#368199 - 08/15/11 10:53 PM Re: Anti-Disclosure Reality [Re: CruxFidelis]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6401
Loc: 2.5 NATO Nations
Re Seeking help from clergy and requisit disclosure:

An interesting story. Might be good for a chuckle...

At least THREE times now I've been told by church resources via email to: Avoid temptations of the flesh...yadda yadda yadda.

I've just told you fk-tards that I was raped as a very small child until I was 14 and you tell me to "avoid temptations of the flesh??"

One source was a christian rock station on KCMO who asked anyone with life-damaging issues to email-in and they would counsel and pray. It was an annonomous disclosure I made while on a biz trip.

_________________________
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The Aftermath Video

The Water Buffalo Song

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