Am I the only survivor who has a hard (maybe impossible) time calling himself a "man?" And I mean the actual label "man." I've NEVER been able to speak my name (even now), without mumbling it terribly and cannot bring myself to call myself a "man."

Other people are "men." I, however, am something other than "that." I certainly know from where it originates, but I wonder if I'm alone in this? It came from a vast mix of degradations that sepparated me from idenification with others. The "name" thing, I don't know where that comes from, but likely from zero self esteem or self-regard.

The haunting tid-bit was that question the lead perp would ask: "How do you let us keep doing this to you?"

My 6th grade teacher asked: "when are you going to stand-up for yourself?"

I won't even get into the mirror issues.

Hi robbie,

I've ben thinking and “working"with this for a while lately.it's a source of no end of shame sometimes..but I can see how I just didn't process...wasn't present for.. Figuring out an identity as male, straight or gay, and dealing with the so many ways I couldn't fit with expectations of “male"

I doubt your alone on g this at all....

Hey, Rob.

I think I kind of know where you're coming from. I was called "fag" and "queer" so consistently over so many years, by kids at school and my own brothers, that "fag" is what I believed myself to be. To this day I still don't view myself as a man; on a good day, I consciously think of myself as a boy, but I don't, and can't, think of myself as a man. This has been a serious issue in my marriage, too.

So, you're not alone.

Peace,

John

I struggle with this as well. I used to see myself as a man but now I feel like that was stripped away from me. Spending time with friends of mine who are men has been helpful but sometimes I see myself trying to "act" like a man instead of just being a man like I did before my assaults. Underneath all of my attempts to fit in I feel like a eunuch.

Robbie,
I recall when I was growing a go tee, I was absolutely convinced that someone would call out my inauthenticity, as this activity was reserved for men, males,- neither of which I had felt worthy of being referred or seen as. I was and am deeply ashamed of myself and to this day, always look for the person who is going to call me on this sham and I will finally cease to exist because I will crumble to nothing, having outlived the need for pain and disgust and remorse and fear and of not being what I see and feel every other "man" has, a strong and proud sense of being apart of an amazing gender that is strong, sensitive, supportive, provider, masculine, and reeks of what I thought would some day rub off on me. Your words are so true to me, my heart breaks for you, and truly to the boy in me that wanted desperately to understand the joys of manhood, but instead, fount a way to drown the hurt and emotional rape of my genger identity. I still think, if I could just do x, or y, it would make me a man...and if I try to do something like a man, install a light, fix a fence, I am destryoyed bt paralysis of being found trying to engage in something I'm not....what a fuck in powerful post
Filling prophecy of self hatred and disempowement, and disbelief that I was, am , will ever be a "man"

I think I know where you're coming from Robbie. I've never felt like a man.

I don't feel like I'm a man socially. I don't feel like I'm a man sexually. I don't feel like a man even though I know useful things about tanks and airplanes.

And don't be mistaken, I don't feel like a woman either. I dunno, I tried explaining it to my wife, I think unsuccessfully once. I dunno if it's that I feel kinda genderless, like I don't fit in anywhere on the scale of biological gender, or if it's that I just still feel like a prepubescent little kid. I just know that I love who I love and I like who I like and that's it.

I also have a bit of the whole name thing going to. There's lots of very interesting and famous people who share my name, and I have no problem saying their names, like Kevin Spacey, Kevin Klein, Kevin Bacon, and even, though I'm loathe to admit it, Kevin Costner. But strangely I hate hearing anyone say MY name, and I don't like saying it myself either. It just doesn't seem right. Like it doesn't fit somehow.

I also think this may have something to do with my disconnect from other people socially. I remember watching the show Dexter and feeling such empathy for his charecter. Not the whole killing people part, but how he never knows how to act around people, or what to say or do in emotional situations. I always feel like I'm acting in a play, just trying to remember my lines.

I also have never really been able to stand up for myself, there have been times when I know I've been wronged and my body and mouth react, but it's a dissociative kind of reaction. I can hear my mouth lipping off at a drive through attendant, or public servant, but it's like someone else is doing the talking, and usually afterwards I feel so shocked that I felt that kind of anger, or said anything like that.

I've suffered from this for a long time too. I am 45 and I am truly starting to feel like a "man". I think its because I started to really get to know other men and let them get to know me. Once that started, I started to let go of my idea of what a "man" is supposed to look like.

I did a lot of work. I realize I had some kind of irrationality going on inside of me that I was 100% physically male but thought other people saw something different. I think that is a common sex abuse symptom - to believe others can see something in you that isn't there. For me, it was about abuse from my father, sexual abuse from others making me always doubt myself, question whether I was causing it. Victimizers depend on that dynamic; I believe that's one of the main reasons why we are "chosen" oftentimes.

I did a lot of writing, saw therapists, recovered through a 12 step group, read a lot and started praying more recently. I suffered through almost all of my life alone. So much of my recovery has been about letting go of self-centeredness and realizing that other people, other men, aren't more than me. I suffered something that is more shameful, more secretive, more confusing than most men and I have compassion for that and I make room for that and I accept it but I also accept that it doesn't diminish me and I have a right to have my voice added to the voice of men in general as does every man regardless of how "weak" he might think he is.

Sailboat,

Your example of the go-tee really made me pause and think back to similar times in my life. Attempting things, style and otherwise, after the assault always made me wonder if someone would speak up against me or if in their minds they were making fun of me. "Calling me out" is a perfect way to put it because that is what we do to fakes and liars. And so often so much of my life I have felt like both and not being an authentic man.

But over time it has gotten better as I become the man I think I need to be.

This is a very good thread and appreciate the thoughts and sharing of this pain by each one here.


Daryl

.

Thanks for the feedback guys...and keep it coming for all those who have something to say. I ought to have guessed that such a raw, open nerve with me would be common anoung survivors.

Rather than trying to meet some standard of masculinity, my problem is just using the label "man." Like Fissy Tsickens says, a lot of it was from enduring cruel labels being thrown at me for nearly my entire childooh. So many single incedents stuck, it will likely take a lifetime to peel them off. Just to make matters worse, those labels still sting to this day. Individual stings!


**********Sadness Triggers***********

On a side-note, I remember a line I heard on TV as a kid; "Would the boy I was respect the man I am today?" I though a lot of that line from the time I ffirst heard it. The trouble was, I did not even respect the boy I was at that time.

Shit! This is one of the saddest healing tangents I've ever stepped upon. Sorry if it does the same to you. I sure hope the evil bastard pedos that lurk this site see this...but they probably don't care

I used to fight this all the time and now not so much but it still effects my decision making.

Growing up, I was picked on all the time because of my size and I never fought back because I felt that I deserved it. Because I allowed certain things to happen, that I wasn't worthy of not being picked on and I hated myself for it. As I grew older, I became tired of being teased so I began lifting weights so that I would be stronger than everyone else. Lifting weight also provided an outlet for my anger that was filled inside me.

At the end of the day I know I can consider myself a "man" but question whether others can see it too and that is where my decision making is sometimes poor. I recently messed up a relationship because of this but I think knowing that this is an issue is a huge step in the right direction and now the next obstacle will be figuring out how to get past and move on.

I relate brother, I been bodybuilding for the last 20 years in an effort to reclaim my masculinity. If it wasnt for bodybuilding I dont know where I would be. Its given me an outlet for anger, a way to relate to other guys, given me self confidence and self-esteem. Plus the ladies like it lol

What is A man
I concur with all, but as I read the posts it popped into my head "what is a real man" Is it John Wayne or the Marlboro man, or is it Charlie Chaplin? Which of the two is a better man, the stronger tougher one or the weedy more sensitive one? I would personally be My own Man One that is finally happy about living in his own skin, Finally happy about the fact that there is no shame in who I am, Finally happy that No one can see what I was in the past, and If they know, I don't care. I think a real man is someone that is happy to be me

I don't know If I'm weird, but I am tired of trying to live up to expectations, tired of trying to fit in where I never did, because of my past. I am different, and now I am ME.
I cried in the bed with my wife this morning as she recounted all that I had put her through over the past 20 years. She told me that she did not know If she could trust me, or if I was going to hurt her.
If being a man is being tough and Macho, and hurting people that I care for then I would rather not be one. I would rather be less of a man in the eyes of society, but a hero in the eyes of my family.
Sorry if I sound self righteous, but I think that I did spend to much time trying to fit into that "model man" mold.

Thanks for the thread, it has made me think, and funny thing, I like thinking these days.

Heal well all
Love Life
Martin

This is a really good question.

In my opinion a man is measured by how well he takes care of himself and how well he takes care of the people who depend on him. But, I'm single and childless and I can't support myself let alone another person. So by my own definition I am not a man. I'd give anything to be rough and strong and powerful like they told me men were supposed to be when I was a kid. But it's not that easy.

For me my massive 204 pound physique at 5 foot 9 is sometimes the only measure of my manhood. When I am triggered I am excessively aggressive and if I am surrounded by other men I would rather die then look away if I lock eyes with a guy. I know it isnt healthy but its the only defense Ive ever known. When im not triggered im positive, friendly and happy. Sometimes I wonder if I'll always live this way. Each day is a struggle to survive and keep my sanity. Because of my abuse I cut my entire immedate family out. My wife left me cause I cheated on her. All I have are some dear close friends, my personal training business, my cat lol and my physique. The abuse has torn my sexuality to shambles where I shift between straight and bisexual. Ive had about 10 theraphy sessions but I dont know if its helped much. I may try EDMR next and get on anti anxiety meds

I fake being a MAN, I had to learn how to do this due to a dysfunctional family.

When I read the original post it hit me between the eyes, so i had to spend time thinking about why. last night it hit me, I live with fear, "real men are brave and fearless" is the message from society so I get worn out from portraying this character that is assertive, strong and is the first one to volunteer to prove I can do it. It wears me out.

Edited to add: Control, because I don't feel in control is another issue re Maleness. Also is needing to fix anything, cars for instance, if my car breaks down I feel anything but manly cos I cant fix it.

I think whome hit it on the head.

Being a man isn't assessed by how much you can squat, bench press, or deadlift, or by what your professional MMA record is. To me, it is measured by the ability to support your loved ones, standing behind them through thick and thin, and doing things that might not be viewed as masculine ( e.g. watching a chick flick with a girlfriend).

Knowing your faults, that you cannot fix those yourself, and deciding to get help constitutes more of a man than 99% of all the other men out there.

I've decided to be whatever I am at any given moment. But back in the day, I bought the supposed trappings of manhood:

1) A brand-new Trans Am.
2) Doing motocross since age 10 like it was my last day on earth.
3) Was a researve cop for two years.
4) Carry a gun - This was my substitute for the body building thing I guess. It made certain I would never be at the mercy of anyone ever again.
5) Joined ROTC in college.

But the real issue for me, as I mentioned in the openning of this thread, is "calling myself a 'man.'" I still can't do it and I have no expectations of ever being able to.

1) Bought a supercharged Grand Prix
2) Was a forum warrior on all sites having anything to do with cars.
3) Tried to join the Navy. I know it wouldn't sound so gay if it was the army, huh? Woulda been on a sub if I wasn't so fat.
4) Bought a gun, with a rate of fire of 3 rounds per minute. If you're good.
5) Became a civil war reenactor.


Wow I'm such a freaking nerd, lol!

This was always a question I had.

My history:

Growing a gottee - cause someone said i looked "tough"
Buying a pickup truck (i live in the city)
Becoming a sex addict (actually loving going to SA type groups)
Buying a gun - and getting conceal and carry permit (i have never carried it)
Buying another gun.
Accepting another gun from my mother-in-law.
Always showing my wife my muscles (I have few - and im 52yo - grow up!!!)
Riding a bicycle down Pikes Peak (again @ 52yo)
Going white water rafting (yeah - 52yo)

But still can't look another guy in the eyes or talking.
Comparing myself.

Im better - but still hate it.

I especially like when my wife calls me a fag, or tells me to "be a man." Can you spell "insensitive?"

Holy shit John! I hope you do realize I know of exactly what you speak, so it drives a nail right through my heart.

But dang! I have to say:
WTF!?!?!

I am SO sorry to hear this coming from your house dude...I don't know where to begin my rage-dump. This world just ain't right.

I am sorry to hear this. Hearing things like that, especially from a 'loved one' can be paralyzing. No one should be talked to like that.

I've had sexual dysfunction when I was in my 20's I was confused and told my mother. Her response? " omg your too young for that are you sure your not gay"???

Robbie,
You are not alone. For years I couldn't think of myself as anything other then just male. A title with a social expectation such as"boy" or"man" was to hard. I finally permitted myself to think of myself as a "guy".
I was horrified when I was young and grew body hair. I wore long sleeves and jeans because it felt like my body was exerting itself into a territory it didn't belong. I felt like it was asking for trouble.
I've been working against it for years. And I have come along way. Though I've been going to a gym for years, the free weights were the territory of "real men". A couple of months ago I made a commitment to learn them and enter the area at least twice a week. Truth is early in the morning when I work out I am surrounded by friends. I'm still petrified they will think I am over stepping the boundaries. But that is all the old crap yelling in my head.
For me, what I was taught about being a man was a toxic lie. I am fighting to embrace what I know is good about us men, like your courage to even bring it up!

There are few things in the world as disgusting as a man. I can feel like a boy, a human, a nerd, a god, an animal, a villain, a machine, ... but if I feel like a man I feel distressed to the point of nausea.

I cringe at how unempathic behavior gets routinely justified under the guise of manliness. I cringe at the absence of any aesthetics in the physical male form. I cringe at the whole parade of failed role models who have passed before my child eyes, expecting me to copy their dumb, aggressive behavior. And I cringe at the monstruous form my boy body has transformed into.

There are men whom I am cordial with. But once I feel connected to them, I stop viewing them as male. My friends have their own gender, so to speak.

... It's bad, isn't it?

Well intended,

I don't think it's bad; I rather like the idea of an alternative or "non" gender. Much less of a threat.

Peace,

John

I like it as well, John. Feeling different than everybody else even has led to some positive self-fulfilling prophecies, that made up for a lot of bad things in my childhood. I've made sure I have lots of reasons to like it. And I would still like my wacky world view, overall, if it weren't for the realization that these attitudes also guarantee my adult virginity.

Me too, in everything you wrote, with particular attention to the goetee...I thought someone would tell me to shave it because who was I fool on- let's talk shame

The only reason I dont grow a beard any more is because it is snow white, damn thing ages me ten years, no thanks.

I am Man enough
Martin

I returned to the scene of the attempted recovery. I dealt with a lot of my alien status by sailing and being a true member of the forest. I spent tons of time and years in Maine trying to "be this" or BE that." Trying to be anything that was acceptable to others and also seeking acceptance from some type of humanity.

The quest for manhood is fkg rediculous for me. I hate any of it. I hate all of it. What I discovered in this return was traces of a disgustingly unfortunate 'thing.' And good Lord, they never accepted me back then one bit.

I took 1033 pics of the kids and I. I'll see what I'm allowed to show.

I totally relate to this thread.

I have never been comfortable calling myself, or for that matter, thinking of myself, as a man.

I'm 53 years old, I've been married for 26 years, I have 5 children and one grandchild, yet I still don't consider myself "a man".

Amazing so many of us share that messed up perception.

Stick around bb, there's a lot more amazingly messed-up perceptions to discover.

Welcome to the site if you want to hang around.

I have this same problem as well.

I relate so well. What is a "man"? How do i become one? I am not confused about not being a woman but it just feels like I am not a man either because of what has been done to me. I try to figure out how to make sense of it. It is not a sexual identity thing either. I just do not recognize myself as a 'normal" male human being....but i can not figure out what thaat makes me. I have trouble saying my own name as well, not for sure who i am suppose to be, I am the jr. to my Sr. abuser so i have never really figured out who i am...I don't want his name becuae i can't stand to be reminded of him. So I am not-a-man with no name (because he names me after him) and mirrors do not hold any appeal for me either. i have to willfully look in the mirror to check appearance and i still do not make eye contact because i do not want to see what's there.

It's taken all my almost 40 yrs to accept myself for who I am and what I am...I still struggle...

Am I a man? A whore? A faggot? I don't know yet. But, I do know one thing...I simply am...and for now, that is enough

A man... of mystery, not because I am dashing or cavalier, but because I am not who "I am".

Robbie, this is a fascinating topic, thank you.

I want to be this supportive, empathetic and direct person, but the impulsive child in me demands his 15 minutes, and that usually leads to awkward moments at the least, and jail time at the most. Now, he is a better with recovery, but he still "conversates" with his son for an hour and a half, while his 16 year old son rolls his eyes and his wife shakes her head.

So be it, I am better today than I was yesterday, and maturing a'pace.

Sam

Darheart,
you nailed my thoughts and feelings perfectly,....45 here, mrrd, 2 boys at age of abuse, and I don't now how I am to shape these amazing creatures to be the men of tomorrow, not done so bad yet, kinda do the opposite of my upbringing and it works:), but it's fucking hard raisin two boys to be men , when I never once felt like one myself....

It is hard...I can't imagine raising sons...

Its funny, i find myself now in this recovery process moving along and yet i have to agree, i find the whole concept daunting. I know for the longest time, i never felt the same as "others", I did not get the instant car recognition gene. It was more like i was trying to play a role, but i was always the understudy.

Maybe I overcompensate by going to the gym and looking the part, trying to deepen and slow my vocal response when around guys. I nod at neighborood parties when the sexes segragate and the conversation turns to pursuits i dont give a sweet f for and think wtf am i doing here.

But for my boys, i want to consciously show them that being a man is about doing the right things as best you can. Following your own heart and being true to yourself - not an easy task when yourself has been hidden from you for so long. If I can accomplish that, it will have all been worth it.

Maybe I just don't care about how i compare to the "others" any more. Its a pursuit that is fruitless, I can only be me whatever that looks like. The cool thing is seeing the journey from the outside now and having let go of all that weight of expectation, I can finally look in the mirror. Something that was not possible my whole life and i just turned 51.

We have had to deal with so much that has made us all feel so separate, culled from the flock and readied for slaughter. But we dont have to go down that shute like i always thought was the inevitable path. There are ways out that take time to see, cuz we have those animal blinders put on us.

Mostly its just finally knowing we are not alone in how we feel, what we did to cope(usually not very well), the horrible things we participated in that robbed us of our souls but ultimately knowing we dont have to stay stuck. Finding a way out in spite of such insurmountable odds. Maybe thats what being a man is - Perservering in the face of something so monstrous, and overwhelming and still finding our humanity. Ironically maybe thats what we all are, not men, but ubermen.

One thing about "what is a man," is that during the flat-out humilliating divorse abuse I took in the court, all I could think about was little Robbie being smeared as a 8 yo slut (no kidding...he was portraid as such) and things like my journal being stolen and published thru the court...kept thinking that John Wayne or Jason Bourne would have had people's heads on a pike (litterally) in front of the court building...that NO 'MAN' would allow such bull-shit to go on and put an abrupt end to it no matter what the cost.

But no...I sat there listening to the cnt from the other side describe the child as a hyper-sexualized nut-case that has no business in decent society. I'd watched the Army Reserve Officer judge go bug-eyed during the readings of the journal. Watch "rusty" the bailif look at me like I was a whore in church. No one ever looked my way and saw a 'man.'

Yep....what Darkheart said...I simply "am"....

First, I would ask. Who gets to make that distinction ? We do. A person gets to choose. If you wanna be the john wayne type, he died of cancer. I think. Point is, allure is false. The male model for acting accordingly, is false. Predicated by 1950
s pop culture, a lie. Everyone, even you, gets to choose what "man" is. What he does. What he likes. The most damaging lie my abuse ever had me believe, was that I was no longer in control of me. Being older now, we should see we are in control. We get to make the calls. Anxiety wells up, "we're not able to make that call. Oprah said I was broke, did'nt she? " Come on guys. WE'RE male. Adult males. Therefore men. Any distinction past that is gonna be different from a person to person basis. Be whatever your heart desires. If abuse has takin your desire from you, take it back. Easier said than done, granted. Take it farther. Go harder. Be braver. My opinion of a man. He never stops fighting for what he truly cares about. We should all care truly, for ourselves first. When we're happy, we earn the right to care for others. Other people in our lives are a blessing, and relationships should only be pursued when we are at somewhat of a happy space with ourselves. Lest we drive someone else to madness. We'll never be happy until we stop running and do something about our feelings. Confront the abusers, if we can't, then fuck em. We know their sick fucks probly burning in hell, or if we're lucky, ten times more miserable than we are. Fading along in their happy facades of lives, when one day, suddenly, BAM. Demolished. Another accident on the evening news. We reap what we sew, they will get theirs. Rambling aside. PLease believe. You deserve to be WHATEVER YOU WANT to be. BE YOURSELVES. DONT BE ASHAMED OF WHATEVER THAT IS.

Tyler854,

***********TRIGGERS******************

Well said and clear of thought! But it IS easier said than done for many of us. I had built a life others admired and I loved. I had enough borrowed self-confidence and pride from my days in the mask that I was "mightly." And the "mighty" fall hard.

There was palpable enjoiment amoung those who shot me down and then poked the corpse with a stick. I've been so defamed amoung the humans that it spread to my children (out of my control). See, that's MUCH of the problem with many of us. our story falls out of our control and takes on a life of its own. Talk about HOT small-town gossip material!!! Shit! THAT guy was a 7-year sex victim? Keep the kids away!!!

A JUDGE. A creature whom is supposed to be objective, oozed disdane for the survivor for not clenching his butt cheeks hard enough, for not ever being beaten-up so that his mouth could no longer perform its duties when they demanded it. "He never fought back?" He asked that!!!!! "He never told in 30 years?!?!?" He asked that. "You married her know all this??!?!" He asked me that!

So a pillar of society-represented, looked down from the 8 ft-high mahogany and saw the same pile of shit he sends to the state prison when he's conducting criminal court.

Tyler; All you say is true and well stated. Many of us bought into (or buy into) the media's portrayal of "men." Many of us speak our minds and have a very-strong spine, but when you testify to insanity within society, inequity within society, hold a giant mirror to society's face, all you get back are ad-homonym attacks and judgememts based on those very society (media)-generated ideas and ideals of "men."

As much as I'd like to be an island, I simply cannot be one. I still have to interact with others. But I WILL take what you say to heart. I'll go along and be me. .. Be my version of manhood. I'll wait for THEM to try to pull me down and be Jason Bourne in my mind and in my own way. I just don't know as I'll ever be able to re-program my mind to define myself as a "man" by any criterion. I'll just be me...as always.

and why MUST there be some clear cut definitive answer as to what a "man" is?

that would never work....

why? because we are all human... we are all different.

so, i could care less about what defines males as men...

i'm me... i'm todd morgan and you like me or you don't like me. i'm an adult male. you can either accept me for who i see myself as or not... i will be who i want to be. i will be who i know myself as being. i will not let society dictate who i am. if this makes me not a "man" by societies views than so be it...

this is me.. love me or don't love me...

I relate to what you said about the small town gossip.My manner in disclosing was'nt much for secrecy, but I chose that path. I accepted anyone who knew me and had doubts would be, foolish. Fools don't garner attention in my world. Simple understanding on my part is all it takes to deflate their inflamed ignorance. I see the looks from my uncle, by marriage. The worry. Almost ironic, as he was the first one I told about my abuse. He was relatively new at the time and I figured my best bet for safe disclosure without really caring what he thought. When I see his look, around his son, as I have a great relationship with my aunt's two boys, who love me very dearly, I see it as comical. Even with stone cold proof from two adolescents, their proof being love and openness with me, he still has that ignorant view. His ignorance breeds fear. I understand. He ofcourse has no bearing on my life, so its easy for me to not care. The judge from your story is immediately looked down on, more so that he is a judge, and should be capable of rationale human thought. Obviously had none to spare when trying you, as I take from your writing. The lucky few will never understand. They cling so tightly to this image of a fake world, a happy one, where no one gets hurt like that around here. ONLY other towns. ONLY other people. Sickest form of dissosiation I can imagine, one that allows apathy for the truly innocent. I want to take this opportunity to thank you for many of your writings. Can think of a handful of times when I thought, "Yeah. That guy get's it" The anger correlates best. I really enjoy your drive and passion. With the last thing you said, I'll reply with something similiar. Thank you for being you. N just to break the warm n fuzzies, the posting with the split into the mudvayne song- fuckin rocked. Haha. Keep Strong.

I don't remember where I heard this or what book I read this in but i distinctly remember that it had a profound impact on me and my recovery.

"When a girl/woman is sexually assaulted or raped, is doesn't tend to make her feel un-female. However, when a boy/man is sexually assaulted /raped it does tend to make him feel un-male."

Basically, CSA of guys has a profound effect of attacking there sense of gender and masculinity!!!!!!!!!


I think it may have been Dr. Richard Gartner's book "Betrayed as boys."
That is a fantastic resource by the way, for those that have not heard of it yet or checked it out.
Logan