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#365932 - 07/13/11 08:32 PM Virginia schools intolerant?
Happy Birthday Fissy Tsickens Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/23/08
Posts: 466
Loc: Bassett, Virginia
_________________________
Wish that I could cry
Fall upon my knees
Find a way to lie
About a home I’ll never see

It may sound absurd...but don’t be naive
Even heroes have the right to bleed
I may be disturbed...but won’t you concede
Even heroes have the right to dream
It’s not easy to be me

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#365953 - 07/14/11 08:17 AM Re: Virginia schools intolerant? [Re: Fissy Tsickens]
EdfromNYC Offline
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Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
I'm sure that the "homophobic" slurs are typical teen talk, calling each other "gay" just like urban black kids call each other "n*gger". Its the same but no one polls black kids to see if they are offended. You'd have the same or worse statistics.

The results are from "Virginia students who participated in GLSEN’s 2009 National School Climate Survey" and no one else. Its kids who CHOSE to participate so of course you're going to get stats like this.

This study is meaningless from statistical point of view. Its just to get people riled up and it is not based in reality.

This isn't an attack on you; its an attack on bad science and bad journalism.

_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#365964 - 07/14/11 10:25 AM Re: Virginia schools intolerant? [Re: EdfromNYC]
prisonerID Offline
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Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
John, thank you for posting this.

I am not so quick to dismiss this study or what it might show here. It is the gay students who stated that they heard homophobic remarks. To me that is not referring to hearing one gay student popping off to another in a joking manner.

"Among the conclusions drawn by the survey: 85 percent of gay students regularly heard homophobic remarks; 37 percent were physically harassed due to their sexual orientation; and 21 percent were physically assaulted."

While there has been much progress made since I was a closeted teen there is still much more to be done. And with each step taken those who oppose gay rights will amp up their campaign. My fear is for those that it will be taken out on in a personal manner.


Daryl

_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

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#365984 - 07/14/11 06:25 PM Re: Virginia schools intolerant? [Re: prisonerID]
Happy Birthday Fissy Tsickens Offline
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Registered: 09/23/08
Posts: 466
Loc: Bassett, Virginia
Ed:

As Daryl states above, some of this data came from students self-identified as gay. I've had to deal with a few situations in my career in public education here in VA, for the past 20+ years. This isn't one student kidding around with another. This is harassment and abuse.

My own student years in public school (in NY) were HELL. I was called fag and queer, I was pushed around, beaten up, you name it...and I was already very confused as this happened during my years of abuse. This has caused a lot of damage to me.

Regarding the data being bogus because the participants volunteered the information, well, that's pretty much how all data is gathered these days. Other than coercing it out of prison inmates and POW's, I don't know how else you'd get it. I don't think the scientific community is into waterboarding. ;o)

I'm not offended by your take; I just don't agree. Perhaps my experiences in life are very different than yours. Anyway, if we all agreed, the world would be a boring place.

Peace,

John

_________________________
Wish that I could cry
Fall upon my knees
Find a way to lie
About a home I’ll never see

It may sound absurd...but don’t be naive
Even heroes have the right to bleed
I may be disturbed...but won’t you concede
Even heroes have the right to dream
It’s not easy to be me

Top
#365998 - 07/14/11 09:34 PM Re: Virginia schools intolerant? [Re: Fissy Tsickens]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
Daryl and John both make valid points. In point of fact there is no way one can draw the conclusion that the statement - - -

Quote:
the "homophobic" slurs are typical teen talk, calling each other "gay" just like urban black kids call each other "n*gger".

- - - is in actuality fact. If this study was conducted using a legitimate scientific approach it cannot be discounted simply by concluding that it's just kids being kids. I'm quite certain that the methodology of the testing is available in some cubbyhole of the internet and can be examined by interested parties either simply by reading it online or by request to the sponsoring organization.

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#366017 - 07/15/11 07:53 AM Virginia schools intolerant?
EdfromNYC Offline
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Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
I was gay when I was a kid and never saw any of this and this was in the 80's in a catholic school. I never saw it toward me or anyone else. Ever. Just because its reported in the media doesn't mean it happens on a grand scale. Definitely some kids are subject to extreme bullying but those cases are not limited to homosexual kids but bullies bullying weaker people regardless of their orientation.

The polling is bad science whatever people want to say. Only 234 gay kids responded in VA. That means either there are only 234 gay kids in VA or there are many more who could not have been bothered to respond. Either way, its not indicative of a true cross section of the population to be evaluated. You always have to understand who didn't respond; in this case, other gay kids who weren't subject to abuse.

Iit is a self-serving poll. The only people who will respond are the ones who have an interest in responding. That is a prima facie case of bad polling. There's nothing neutral about it, its biased in its format and the results are skewed because of who will reply.

Hit the link, read the poll and the polling methods. There's no distance in this poll from the subjects. If you looked up the definition of "bad polling", this would fit.

In polls like this, you really have to understand the amount of kids who didn't respond because they didn't need to respond. Many. many, many more kids are not subject to hostility.

I want to add that even though I don't like polls like this, I can only imagine how bad some people's experiences are with being bullied. My older brother bullied me but not to the extent some kids are bullied repeatedly by other kids on a nonstop basis. I understand this and I truly sympathize and think that childhood bullies should be punished harshly and quickly and that too many adults ignore it or even subtly encourage it. I think the anti-bullying movement is a great thing and I understand why a poll like this might be very meaningful to some people as a reflection of their experience. I still disagree with the methods but I get why this is an emotional issue for some.



Edited by EdfromNYC (07/15/11 08:08 AM)
Edit Reason: more balance
_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#366142 - 07/17/11 11:52 PM Re: Virginia schools intolerant? [Re: EdfromNYC]
Happy Birthday Fissy Tsickens Offline
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Registered: 09/23/08
Posts: 466
Loc: Bassett, Virginia
Hi, Ed.

Perhaps the research is invalid. But if it brings attention to the problem and helps even one kid, it's worth it.

NO child should have to be subjected to abuse, especially at school, which should be a safe place for students.

Thanks for taking the time to weigh in on this matter.

Peace,

John

_________________________
Wish that I could cry
Fall upon my knees
Find a way to lie
About a home I’ll never see

It may sound absurd...but don’t be naive
Even heroes have the right to bleed
I may be disturbed...but won’t you concede
Even heroes have the right to dream
It’s not easy to be me

Top
#366378 - 07/22/11 02:58 AM Re: Virginia schools intolerant? [Re: Fissy Tsickens]
grumplestiltskin Offline


Registered: 04/14/11
Posts: 30
Loc: Denver CO
My school years were rough in terms of bullying and homophobia. At least until I changed schools to an overseas school. Spent a year at a Catholic high school which was pretty bad, but nothing compared to the public school I attended for middle school. There are definitely schools where bullying and abuse are totally ignored by adults in charge. I'm sure it's a bad but it doesn't mean there's not a real problem. Just like those ridiculous stats about 300K child sex slaves in the US. They both mean well, but why not use real facts?


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#366401 - 07/22/11 02:13 PM Re: Virginia schools intolerant? [Re: grumplestiltskin]
Zack Offline


Registered: 07/22/11
Posts: 3
Loc: Oklahoma
I guess I'll way in on this one too. I was a middle of the road kid in school but I was harrassed and bullied by certain people all through school starting with my first day in the 3rd grade. I was called fag and gay and this was in the 3rd grade. Some people never let up, not for a minute. I was beat up a few times and once severely and I was called fag & queer while it was happening. The beating messed up the vision in one eye permanently. Nothing was done by the police for the incident even though I was able to identify 3 of the individuals involved. One of the police men even said that it wouldn't have happened if I didn't act so "snotty & girlie". I was laying in a hospital bed and the police were basically blaming me for being beaten.

So Ed, I'm really glad that you never experienced anything like this. I grew up in rural Oklahoma and I was neither snotty or girlie, I was smart and I didn't play football and ultimately that was the problem.

Zack.


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#366431 - 07/23/11 01:38 AM Re: Virginia schools intolerant? [Re: EdfromNYC]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
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Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 725
Loc: United States
Hey Ed,

You seem to have methodological concerns on how the research was conducted that lead you to declare it "meaningless". Can you share your concerns and the process you went through to come to this conclusion? My analysis shows that this is a trustworthy and transparent piece of research.

The article that was linked to makes a clear statement about the Margin of Error (MoE) for the Virginia element of this study. The MoE takes the 234 respondent sample size into account and indicates the statistical chance of a number being wrong:

Quote:
The 2009 GLSEN survey features responses from 7,261 lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender students, ages 13-21, from all 50 states and Washington, D.C. Of those, 234 students are from Virginia. The margin of error for Virginia-based findings is 7 percent.

Coming to a Margin of Error calculation is a well established science. The seven percent margin of error means that the percentages quoted in the article may be off by only +/-7% of the number in question. Let's take the numbers in the article:

Quote:
Among the conclusions drawn by the survey: 85 percent of gay students regularly heard homophobic remarks; 37 percent were physically harassed due to their sexual orientation; and 21 percent were physically assaulted.

This means that assuming the maximum margin of error in both directions the 85 percent of gay students who regularly heard homophobic remarks could be as low as 78% or as high as 92%, that the 37 percent who were physically harassed due to their sexual orientation could be as low as 30% and as high as 44%, and that the 21 percent who were physically assaulted could be as low as 14% or as high as 28%. It's most probable that the true number is very close to the actual number reported. Any way you read them, these number are far from meaningless.

The stated purpose of the study is to understand the experience of gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender youth in school (see highlighted below) so it seems entirely appropriate and reasonable that they would recruit them as their target respondents rather than kids who aren't gay lesbian, bixexual or transgender. GLSEN has been around for 20 years and...:

Quote:
For 10 of those years, GLSEN has been documenting the school experiences of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) youth: the prevalence of anti-LGBT language and victimization, the effect that these experiences have on LGBT students’ achievement and the utility of interventions to both lessen the negative effects of a hostile climate and promote a positive educational experience. In 1999, GLSEN identified the need for national data on the experiences of LGBT students and launched the first National School Climate Survey (NSCS). At the time, the school experiences of LGBT youth were under-documented and nearly absent from national studies on adolescents. The NSCS remains one of the few studies to examine the school experiences of LGB students nationally and is the only national study to include transgender students. The results of the survey have been vital to GLSEN’s understanding of the issues that LGBT students face, thereby informing our ongoing work to ensure safe and affirming schools for all.

Based on my review, this appears to be a long running and well respected study with a sound methodology and which is widely cited in the broader scientific literature. I'm interested in hearing the reasons you dismiss it so completely.

There are plenty of studies that look at bullying in school age children that find the bullying of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender kids and people perceived to be lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender in the broader school age population. There are also plenty of studies that show kids are bullied because of race.

So far all you've done is make an assertion with no data or analysis to support it. If you have a *scientific* argument to make, please make it so it can be part of the discussion.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#366434 - 07/23/11 06:01 AM Virginia schools intolerant?
EdfromNYC Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
Here's the problem with surveys like this - they are completely voluntary and the only people who will respond are those who may have been bullied. The people who haven't been bullied, don't respond. Thus, your results are skewed NO MATTER WHAT because we don't know how many people didn't respond because they weren't bullied.

234 responded and 85% heard homophobic remarks. VA's population according to census is around 8,000,000 and about 23% is under 18 and about 7% is under 5. There is no breakdown of specific high schoolers but lets say around 7%. That makes 560,000 kids in high school. If you want to be more conservative with the number of kids in high school, be my guest.

Lets say 400,000. So, out of 400,000 kids in high school, 234 responded 85% heard homophobic remarks (which is completely undefined we're left to figure out what that means) and 85% of 234 is actually 199.

So out of around a half a million kids, a self serving study that serves GLSEN's interest, its reason for existence, shows that approximately 0.05% of students have been exposed to homophobic remarks and this is supposed to be newsworthy and generalized across the entire student population?

If you want to stand by this as the original poster did, that this was indicative of intolerance, be my guest. I would argue the complete and total opposite. This is indicative of extreme tolerance and any homophobia is absolutely outside the norm if such a small percentage of the population is experiencing this.

GLSEN's reason for pushing this is its reason for being an organization. It needs to generate stories to validate itself.

This isn't news, it never was, the poll is completely flawed and it is showing exactly the opposite of what it proposes. But throw out a poll citing homosexual intolerance and people will do anything, anything to justify the polls results.

Its not that bad. Its bad for some individuals but for the absolute majority, its not bad at all. Polls are bad when they are done like this by anyone simply to generate news. If GLSEN had a poll that didn't turn out with these results, it would never publish the results because it would be signalling the death knell of itself and its purpose.

I find organizations like GLSEN specious. I think GLSEN takes individual experiences and extrapolates them out into being the norm and its just not so. This is an example of a poll being used for a press release and THAT'S IT.

A post>


Edited by EdfromNYC (07/23/11 07:34 AM)
Edit Reason: cleaning up
_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#366437 - 07/23/11 09:34 AM Re: Virginia schools intolerant? [Re: EdfromNYC]
prisonerID Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
"Tolerance is the absolute norm; intolerance is a rarity, especially extreme intolerance and abuse."

"The absolute majority of young men and women who identify as gay when they are teenagers (always subject to change later in life) are not subject to hostility as the findings of this poll suggest."

With these broad statements one could also say that the majority of people are not murdered. They are not robbed by another. They are not kidnapped perhaps to be never found. They are not tortured. They are not raped. They are not molested. That is what the stats would show concerning crime. But does that mean the minority is really that small a part of the general population?

As someone who has worked with teens for many years, of all sexual orientations, I very much disagree with you on these statements. I do not believe that bullying is a rare occurrence for teens in general. And certainly not within the subset of gays and lesbians.

I have great respect for the GLSEN or any organization that has worked to educate as well as combat the agendas of other organizations and individuals.


Daryl

_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

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#366441 - 07/23/11 10:46 AM Re: Virginia schools intolerant? [Re: prisonerID]
EdfromNYC Offline
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Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
Absolutely it does mean the minority is really that small a part of the general population. Facts are facts, the numbers are real.

Murder is bad, bullying is bad. Does it happen? Yes. Is it a real issue? Yes. Is this poll ridiculous? Yes.

My statements probably pan out in reality and reflect the findings of the poll. Relate back to the poll which is the topic here.

Generally groups like GLSEN and other organizations that have an interest in finding an outcome favorable to their own cause (I would say the same about many Christian organizations or Republican organizations) through polling, I find they can be loose with information seeking only to generate headlines and not disseminate facts. GLSEN has a great agenda, to help kids, but stuff like this makes me lose respect.

I don't feel that you're contributing by pulling statements out and ignoring my analysis of the poll. I understand you seem emotional about this but I'm not writing about your life - I'm writing about a poll and I feel as though I'm arguing science and you're not.

You're ignoring so much in the context of this forum.

Added: Considering that we are male survivors of sexual abuse and our voices are seldom heard in society at large, I do have an understanding of where you are relating from regarding bullied kids. I can be analytical to a fault and disregard some of the emotions that can be elicited by my writing. I do understand the need for kids in need to have voices and to have help for what they are going through. I understand victimization and my point is not to diminish any victim's voice or experience.



Edited by EdfromNYC (07/23/11 10:57 AM)
Edit Reason: reflected on post
_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#366442 - 07/23/11 11:00 AM Re: Virginia schools intolerant? [Re: EdfromNYC]
prisonerID Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
I am not at all emotional about any of this actually and resent your stating so. The topic may have started as the poll but you are the one who made the general statements outside said poll. Topics can grow from one point being made. Your statements were placed here in the open so therefore can be commented on I would think.

You said them - I merely commented on them.

_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

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#366443 - 07/23/11 11:13 AM Re: Virginia schools intolerant? [Re: prisonerID]
EdfromNYC Offline
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Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
To be resentful is to be emotional. I can't discuss with someone who can't be honest with himself.

My statements were based on the findings of the poll. Again, its you commenting on me not on my analysis of the poll. I won't engage with you unless you want to write about the poll and/or my analysis of the poll not statements taken out of context. Context is very important.

_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

Top
#366447 - 07/23/11 01:27 PM Re: Virginia schools intolerant? [Re: EdfromNYC]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 725
Loc: United States
Hey Ed,

Originally Posted By: EdfromNYC
Here's the problem with surveys like this - they are completely voluntary and the only people who will respond are those who may have been bullied. The people who haven't been bullied, don't respond. Thus, your results are skewed NO MATTER WHAT because we don't know how many people didn't respond because they weren't bullied.

Your concern is about a self-selected sample that skews the data because the sample respondents don't truly represent the *entire* population of the target group in Virginia (in this case). You care about the potential for a "random sampling error".

The Margin or Error number that I quoted from the study is the number that tracks and measures how closely the respondent sample tracks to the target population as a whole. In short, it expresses what the maximum error might be in the results because in statistics no sample (short of 100%) is perfectly representative. This is standard practice. From the Wikipedia article I linked to to explain why talking about MoE makes sense answering your concern:

Quote:
The margin of error is a statistic expressing the amount of random sampling error in a survey's results. The larger the margin of error, the less faith one should have that the poll's reported results are close to the "true" figures; that is, the figures for the whole population. Margin of error occurs whenever a population is incompletely sampled.

The study reported the Margin of Error which quantifies exactly how much impact your specific concern has on the study results and I shared "maximum +/- error" scenarios based on their numbers with you:

Quote:
This means that assuming the maximum margin of error in both directions the 85 percent of gay students who regularly heard homophobic remarks could be as low as 78% or as high as 92%, that the 37 percent who were physically harassed due to their sexual orientation could be as low as 30% and as high as 44%, and that the 21 percent who were physically assaulted could be as low as 14% or as high as 28%. It's most probable that the true number is very close to the actual number reported.

Your primary statistical concern has already been measured and quantified and I've show the maximum impact it can have on the reported results, even though in reality the probability is high that the real number is very close, to one side or the other, to the reported number. The assertion that "the only people who will respond are those who may have been bullied. The people who haven't been bullied, don't respond" is false.

Firstly, GLSEN recruited broadly within LGBT youth communities to achieve a representative sample (from the detailed study report):

Quote:
METHODS

GLSEN used two methods to locate survey participants in an effort to obtain a representative national sample of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) youth: outreach through community-based groups serving LGBT youth and outreach via the Internet. With our first method, we randomly selected 50 community-based groups from a list of over 300 groups nationwide and asked their youth participants to complete a paper version of the survey. Our second method utilized GLSEN’s web presence, e-communications, and online advertising to obtain participants. We posted notices of the survey on LGBT-youth oriented listservs and websites and emailed notices to GLSEN chapters and youth advocacy organizations. To ensure representation of transgender youth, youth of color, and youth in rural communities, we made special efforts to reach out to organizations that serve these populations. We also conducted targeted advertising on the MySpace and Facebook social networking sites. The advertisements targeted users between 13 and 18 years of age who gave some indication on their profile that they were lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender.

Secondly, in each of the data points recorded, a percentage of respondents answered in the negative. If your contention had any element of truth, some or all measures of bullying would approach 100%. This is not observed in the results.

There is no statistical foundation whatsoever for asserting that the study as scoped and reported is "meaningless".

After pulling numbers for *all* school children in Virginia instead of the numbers for the LGBT target population of the study in Virginia, you make the following assertion:

Originally Posted By: EdfromNYC
So out of around a half a million kids, a self serving study that serves GLSEN's interest, its reason for existence, shows that approximately 0.05% of students have been exposed to homophobic remarks and this is supposed to be newsworthy and generalized across the entire student population?

This study makes no statement about bullying for all school students in Virginia and it collected no data for respondents who were not targets for the study (LGBT kids). It is disingenuous at best to take the percentage of homophobic bullying for lesbian, gay, bi, and trans children and recalculate the percentage based on straight kids who weren't included in the study (and are not the main targets of homophobic bullying) in order to make the problem of anti-gay bullying to LGBT kids seem statistically insignificant.

This kind of distortion and misuse of the data is the definition of bad statistics and bad science. It makes me wonder if your goal is to determine how accurate and true this study is, or to dismiss it and the issue of homophobic bullying wholesale.

Originally Posted By: EdfromNYC
If you want to stand by this as the original poster did, that this was indicative of intolerance, be my guest. I would argue the complete and total opposite. This is indicative of extreme tolerance and any homophobia is absolutely outside the norm if such a small percentage of the population is experiencing this.

GLSEN isn't making a case that homophobic bullying affects all children, only that it affects kids who are *actually* lesbian, gay, bi, and transgender (you know, the targets of homophobic bullying) very significantly.

Originally Posted By: EdfromNYC
Its not that bad. Its bad for some individuals but for the absolute majority, its not bad at all.

I find your contention here both fallacious and illuminating. By your argument, racist bullying isn't a big problem because it only affects people who are of other races (non-white). The material point is that targeted bullying or any other kind of bias is a significant problem to the target community. Your attempts to say that homophobic bullying is a small problem because only LGBT kids experience it is a total nonsense.

Originally Posted By: EdfromNYC
I find organizations like GLSEN specious. I think GLSEN takes individual experiences and extrapolates them out into being the norm and its just not so. This is an example of a poll being used for a press release and THAT'S IT.

This is a methodologically sound study that accurately captures the incidence of homophobic bullying in the LGBT school community and shows how pervasive it is. There is nothing qualitative or anecdotal about this research as you imply. The inability or unwillingness to understand how research is done and the science behind it is not a problem we can address here.

Originally Posted By: EdfromNYC
The absolute majority of young men and women who identify as gay when they are teenagers (always subject to change later in life) are not subject to hostility as the findings of this poll suggest.

Your statement makes no sense at all.

You've spent much of your time trying to dilute the observed incidence of bullying experienced by LGBT kids by saying that only LGBT kids experience it, and scaling it against the entire school population (who wouldn't be the target of homophobic bullying anyway).

Now you are trying to square the circle by saying the absolute majority of LGBT kids are not subject to hostility when the data on homophobic remarks, even assuming the most improbable maximum MoE says:

Quote:
...the 85 percent of gay students who regularly heard homophobic remarks could be as low as 78% or as high as 92%...

I'm sure we're now going to split the hair on what "hostility" means, but even at it's most improbable low, 78% of lesbian, gay, bi, and trans kids regularly hear homophobic remarks.

That number sounds like a clear and absolute majority to me.

That is not even the most important point. The point is that for the affected children the impact on them is severe and follow on studies are beginning to show the impact of this bullying is lifelong leading to extremely poor health outcomes.

The logical conclusion of your pattern of argument is that the incidence of sexual abuse and assault in the research make them equally as "meaningless" when scaled against the whole population, that the motives of the survivor advocacy organizations are equally as self-serving, and so no monies, services, policies, or laws should be moved to address sexual abuse and sexual assault, either.

I find that pattern of thinking unscientific, cynical and defeatist and choose to look to the better angels of our natures.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#366449 - 07/23/11 03:55 PM Re: Virginia schools intolerant? [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
I'm not going to debate you point for point because its not worth it. This kind of study is a headline generator and not really news.

I'm going to make it simple. If you ask african americans if they've been the target of racism, a certain number will say yes. What we don't know is what "racism" means? It so broad its meaningless.

To ask self-identified gay kids whether they've "heard" homophobic remarks is the exactly the same thing. And the group itself's raison d'etre is to find examples of homophobia and lo and behold they found examples of homophobia. There is no distance here.

All these accusations against me like disingenous, unscientific, distorting - its exactly what I claim is the character of this poll and GLSEN.

You just won't concede that I raise any valid issues which of course I do like undefined terminology. You merely make light of it.

I will stand my reading of the results of the study. Because you read it a different way that is favorable to your position doesn't mean you're right. Your tone is incredibly arrogant but this isn't the first time I've encountered that. I will make it a point to avoid you. I find people who debate like you to be very offensive under the guise of seeming rational.

Let me leave you with this - statistics are like a bikini: they show a lot but they don't show everything. Go to Wikipedia (your source material) to understand how statistics can be read in many different ways.

Its obvious you can figure out standard deviation. It goes much further than that; alas, maybe there's some more learning for you to to do. I'm not on this board to teach you about polling and statistics. I am also not here to tolerate your nastiness.





Edited by EdfromNYC (07/23/11 04:02 PM)
_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
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#366454 - 07/23/11 05:45 PM Re: Virginia schools intolerant? [Re: EdfromNYC]
prisonerID Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
Sigh

_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

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#366474 - 07/24/11 07:42 AM Re: Virginia schools intolerant? [Re: prisonerID]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
i'm sighing just as much here

_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#366485 - 07/24/11 10:59 AM Re: Virginia schools intolerant? [Re: EdfromNYC]
Driftwood Offline


Registered: 05/27/11
Posts: 86
Loc: Colorado
A lot of the threads on this site are heartening to read. I see people working through things and making headway in recovery. This one just leaves me feeling depressed. It’s like getting beat up all over again, the way I was in junior high. I probably feel that way because GLSEN, by conducting this poll, is working to protect kids today from a similar fate. How is that self-serving? Are there children out there who are going to escape being bullied because of GLSEN’s work? If there’s even a chance that that’s the case, how we could we not champion what they’re doing?

I don't know anything about polling or statistics or samples or how any of that stuff works. I know what it's like to get beat up. I'm glad there are groups like GLSEN working to protect children.



Edited by Driftwood (07/24/11 11:00 AM)
Edit Reason: typo

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#366487 - 07/24/11 11:31 AM Re: Virginia schools intolerant? [Re: Driftwood]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 725
Loc: United States
I heartily agree, Driftwood.

My hope is that because of the insights and mitigations that come from research like this that future lesbian, gay, bi, and transgender school children won't have to endure the terrible bullying that so many of us faced in our lives.

But that isn't the only thing I hope they don't have to face.

In general, bullying victims in school experience the most child maltreatment, and the highest rates of sexual victimization. Cause and effect isn't clear, but no child should have to experience any of these abuses in their lives.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#366587 - 07/26/11 03:50 AM Re: Virginia schools intolerant? [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
grumplestiltskin Offline


Registered: 04/14/11
Posts: 30
Loc: Denver CO
If you're going to cast doubt on studies based on their author's motives then pretty much any study is going to be useless. Short of pure science like chemistry and physics the only science that gets done is paid for by someone with some sort of interest in the outcome. But just because something is social science rather than pure science and is performed by someone with an interest, it doesn't mean it's useless. Short of peer review or review by someone with a social science type Phd, we'll never know for sure. Strangely enough, I don't find your word very convincing.

You know, I didn't think that EFM was especially mean or hurtful or whatever. He was sharp, perhaps. But I'm not really sure what reaction you expected when you came into the LGBT forum and slyly insinuated that everything is fine for the damn queers and they should just shut their traps and quit their whining. And also, they don't really exist, anyway. I mean that's the clear subtext of your post, right? Or am I horribly misunderstanding and victimizing your precious snowflake self? Maybe I'm one of those evil gay activists who only understands their own pain? Or is that exactly what you're doing?

There's that whole saying about when you point a finger at someone else, you have three pointing back at you. And a thumb sort of pointed down and off to the side.


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#366594 - 07/26/11 06:46 AM Re: Virginia schools intolerant? [Re: Driftwood]
philistine Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/27/09
Posts: 209
Loc: Oregon
87% of all statistics are BS.
All this study is saying is that this group of people had some questions about how some kids were treated in school.

We are all pretty sure that we know how the kids answered. I would rate pretty sure as being 85%, pretty much the same percentage as the study.

All studies are biased, the fact that there is a study biases what is being studied (pretty sure of this, 85%).

One of you is stating that the study is biased because, well, it is. I am also sure (75%) it is pretty accurate.

I have not determined if this study was done at Princeton, in a lab or if it was done by a group of field organizers, loosely affiliated with GLSEN, doing their best to get as much information as they could to a group that is trying to protect children, but pretty sure that it is closer to the latter. How was that for a run on sentence. But i am sure (75%) that the fake numbers show pretty accurate statements about the lives of these people.

Stop bitching, you are both right.



Edited by philistine (07/26/11 06:53 AM)
_________________________
Mike

"No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself" - Nietzsche

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#366600 - 07/26/11 09:02 AM Re: Virginia schools intolerant? [Re: philistine]
Driftwood Offline


Registered: 05/27/11
Posts: 86
Loc: Colorado
USELESS STATISTICS:
“Since 1984, the Buffalo Bills have won only two games in which they were four points ahead with less than six minutes to play.”

“A preliminary census report indicates that for the first time in our nation’s history female anthropologists outnumber male professional golfers.”

“The latest poll indicates that 72 percent of the American public believes we should withdraw economic aid from Nicaragua.” (Later in the article, we learn: “Of those who expressed this opinion, 28 percent thought Nicaragua was in central Asia, 18 percent thought it was an island near New Zealand, and 27.4 percent believed that ‘Africans should help themselves.’”)


USEFUL STATISTICS:
“...one out of every four black males between the ages of twenty and thirty has spent some time in prison.”
“...the nation’s expenditure for the education of black children is 23 percent less than for white children.”

Accuracy of specific numbers may be debatable (that’s why pollsters publish margins of error), but gay children reporting incidences of harassment is a useful statistic. Knowing people are being harmed or treated unfairly, we can take steps to protect them.

(Statistics from Neil Postman’s “Invisible Technologies” 1992)


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#366613 - 07/26/11 11:29 AM Re: Virginia schools intolerant? [Re: Driftwood]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 725
Loc: United States
The great thing about science is that it requires things to be repeatable, encourages researchers to build upon and test existing hypotheses, and it expects reasoned skepticism when insights are unexpected or unexplained.

When a study is an outlier (finding an incidence that no other study has found) it sets other researchers in the field on the track of understanding why and how such a finding occurred and comparing it to their own, often peer reviewed research. And there is plenty of research in this field to use as a baseline.

Reviewing a sample of the aggregate academic research (including the peer reviewed research) in this area, the GLSEN study doesn't say anything new or controversial, or qualify as an dramatic outlier in terms of the incidence of specific types of homophobic bullying it reports. From School Psychology Review, 2008, Volume 37, No. 2, pp. 202–216 " Homophobic Teasing, Psychological Outco...d Schools Have? " by Dorothy L. Espelage, Steven R. Aragon, and Michelle Birkett of the University of Illinois at Urbana—Champaign and Brian W. Koenig at K12 Associates:

Quote:
Gay and lesbian people frequently experience incidents of homophobia. Pilkington and D’Augelli (1995) reported that 83% of gay and lesbian youth experienced some form of victimization, which included verbal insults, threats of violence, physical assault, and sexual assault. In a national postal survey of 4,216 LGB individuals from the United Kingdom, Mason and Palmer (1996) found that, of those respondents under 18 years of age, 40% of all violent attacks had taken place at school, with 50% of those being perpetrated by same- or similar-aged peers. Finally, in a 2002 study, D’Augelli found that 81% of LGB youth reported they had been verbally abused, 38% had been threatened with physical as- sault, 15% had been physically assaulted, 6% had been assaulted with a weapon, and 16% had been sexually assaulted.

These forms of victimization clearly parallel those behaviors associated with bullying as identified by bully researchers. Rivers (2001) reported that name-calling, assault, and teasing (82%, 60%, and 58%, respectively) were frequent forms of bullying experienced by gay and lesbian students, and that a majority of the name-calling was homophobic in nature. Rumor spreading (59%) and social isolation (27%), which could be considered relational forms of aggression, were also reported.

There has been little effort to integrate the areas of bullying and homophobia, despite the shared interest of these two fields in studying prevalent forms of aggression. Given the reported high rates of victimization from both bullying and homophobia during adolescence (Eslea & Rees, 2001; Pilkington & D’Augelli, 1995), consideration of this association is warranted. Although several qualitative studies have been conducted examining the role of homophobia in aggressive behavior (Kimmel & Mahler, 2003; Phoenix, Frosh, & Pattman, 2003; Plummer, 2001; Rivers, 2001), there are few quantitative studies that have examined the relation between homophobic verbal content and bullying among high school students.

None of these numbers seem surprising when compared with the GLSEN data, and most importantly none of them say that homophobic bullying isn't a problem. More:

Quote:
In a quantitative research study of middle school students (Poteat & Espelage, 2005), a significant association was found for both males and females between bullying and homophobic behavior, specifically use of homophobic verbal content. In that study, the Homophobic Content Agent Target scale was developed to assess the extent to which students (a) called other students homophobic epithets (i.e., agents) and (b) were called homophobic epithets by other students (i.e., targets). The scale distinguished between types of relationships (e.g., friends or enemies) and perceived sexual orientation. Strong associations were found between the use of homophobic content and several forms of aggression, including bullying, fighting, and relational aggression. Furthermore, greater use of homophobic content was also associated with lower empathic concern and perspective taking and more frequent delinquent behavior. Students who were targeted more frequently also reported higher levels of anxiety and depression, other forms of victimization, and a lower sense of school belonging.

Bullying and homophobia are linked, and there are strong associations between homophobic content and aggression.

Quote:
An additional strength of this study is its broad sampling of all school children across many high schools. Much of the previous research on LGB students has been conducted on convenience samples of LGB children, who are often involved in community LGB organizations (Williams et al., 2005). By utilizing a normative sample, this study shows a more accurate view of all students, not just those who identify themselves publicly as LGB.

I need to dig into how they achieved the normative sample (reaching closeted LGB kids) but it potentially may provide a more complete picture by including those who are not out. Overall, however, it's a concern that there is no representation of trans kids who suffer terrible bullying, violence, and health outcomes and these persist when they become adults. The findings of the research aren't a surprise:

Quote:
Although all children or adolescents will experience negative consequences when parents and schools are unsupportive, this study confirms that sexual minority students are particularly susceptible to these outcomes and in need of support. These results expand on previous research that has shown that social and institutional support are essential components of maintaining well-being in sexual minority youth, as well as all students (D’Augelli, 2002, 2003; Hershberger & D’ Augelli, 1995; Mufioz-Plaza et al., 2002). As hypothesized, this study also found that sexual minority youth were more likely to report high levels of depression–suicidal feelings and alcohol–marijuana use. These results support previous literature indicating that LGB youth report higher prevalence of depression (D’ Augelli, 2002; D’ Augelli, Pilkington, & Hershberger, 2002; Rivers, 2001), suicide (D’ Augelli, 2002; Elliot & Kilpatrick, 1994), and drug use (Orenstein, 2001; Rosario, Hunter, & Gwadz, 1997). Although many sexual minority students indicate high rates of these negative outcomes, students receiving support from parents and schools reported significantly less depression–suicidal feelings or less alcohol–marijuana use.

And unsurprisingly for any research project, it's recommended that more research is needed:

Quote:
Another surprising finding was that although LGB students reported significantly more homophobic teasing than heterosexual students, they did not differ in their reports of general victimization experience. They did, however, score differently on a homophobic bullying scale. This suggests that homophobic bullying is not assessed very well by current victimization measures. However, homophobic bullying is a prevalent form of abuse in schools that leads to numerous negative outcomes for the children involved. If schools and researchers wish to prevent victimization in schools, homophobic bullying and teasing must be assessed with a more direct measure than one assessing general victimization experience. This is supported by other research that has found that homophobia and bullying, although related, are two different but equally important constructs that must be assessed (Poteat & Espelage, 2005).

There is a lot of academic research in this field that can be used to validate the hypotheses and results of interest group research like that of GLSEN's. The reason you don't hear a hue and cry about GLSEN's findings in the research community is that they are not really surprising, and track what is being seen in other related academic research.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#366688 - 07/26/11 09:28 PM Re: Virginia schools intolerant? [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
Happy Birthday Fissy Tsickens Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/23/08
Posts: 466
Loc: Bassett, Virginia
Wow. Sorry all. Didn't mean to start an argument. As a former kid abused by bullies, and a Virginia educator, I was just sharing some info to hopefully bring a problem to light to make things better for kids. That's all.

Peace (for crying out loud),

John

_________________________
Wish that I could cry
Fall upon my knees
Find a way to lie
About a home I’ll never see

It may sound absurd...but don’t be naive
Even heroes have the right to bleed
I may be disturbed...but won’t you concede
Even heroes have the right to dream
It’s not easy to be me

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#366692 - 07/26/11 10:39 PM Re: Virginia schools intolerant? [Re: Fissy Tsickens]
Driftwood Offline


Registered: 05/27/11
Posts: 86
Loc: Colorado
No need to apologize, FT. So much good has come out of this! I feel privileged to be a part of it, and I've learned a lot. I especially appreciate the generous work of EFM in shedding light on the nature of polling, data collection, margins of error, etc. That's enlightening. It's also useful to know that bullied kids are more prone to be sexually abused and that there are organizations out there, in addition to GLSEN, who are working to protect the vulnerable.

I'm sorry you were bullied. I was too. I know what that's like. (Does that make us brothers in an odd way? Hope so!) Thanks for starting this thread.


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#366718 - 07/27/11 07:47 AM Re: Virginia schools intolerant? [Re: Driftwood]
prisonerID Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
FT,

I have to second what Driftwood said - it is up to each individual how they respond to what is written on any thread. Many are simply trying to get the word out about bullying and harassment and you did good job with that.

You also did it without bringing a personal agenda to this thread. I cannot say that for all who responded here but I think about all of us did.


Daryl

_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

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#366749 - 07/27/11 04:57 PM Re: Virginia schools intolerant? [Re: prisonerID]
Happy Birthday Fissy Tsickens Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/23/08
Posts: 466
Loc: Bassett, Virginia
Thanks, Drift and Daryl! I really was just trying to help kids. My childhood was a living hell and I don't want any other kid to have those kind of experiences.

Thanks for your support!

blush

Peace,

John

_________________________
Wish that I could cry
Fall upon my knees
Find a way to lie
About a home I’ll never see

It may sound absurd...but don’t be naive
Even heroes have the right to bleed
I may be disturbed...but won’t you concede
Even heroes have the right to dream
It’s not easy to be me

Top
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