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#365932 - 07/13/11 08:32 PM Virginia schools intolerant?
Fissy Tsickens Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/23/08
Posts: 466
Loc: Bassett, Virginia
_________________________
Wish that I could cry
Fall upon my knees
Find a way to lie
About a home Iíll never see

It may sound absurd...but donít be naive
Even heroes have the right to bleed
I may be disturbed...but wonít you concede
Even heroes have the right to dream
Itís not easy to be me

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#365953 - 07/14/11 08:17 AM Re: Virginia schools intolerant? [Re: Fissy Tsickens]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
I'm sure that the "homophobic" slurs are typical teen talk, calling each other "gay" just like urban black kids call each other "n*gger". Its the same but no one polls black kids to see if they are offended. You'd have the same or worse statistics.

The results are from "Virginia students who participated in GLSENís 2009 National School Climate Survey" and no one else. Its kids who CHOSE to participate so of course you're going to get stats like this.

This study is meaningless from statistical point of view. Its just to get people riled up and it is not based in reality.

This isn't an attack on you; its an attack on bad science and bad journalism.

_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#365964 - 07/14/11 10:25 AM Re: Virginia schools intolerant? [Re: EdfromNYC]
prisonerID Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
John, thank you for posting this.

I am not so quick to dismiss this study or what it might show here. It is the gay students who stated that they heard homophobic remarks. To me that is not referring to hearing one gay student popping off to another in a joking manner.

"Among the conclusions drawn by the survey: 85 percent of gay students regularly heard homophobic remarks; 37 percent were physically harassed due to their sexual orientation; and 21 percent were physically assaulted."

While there has been much progress made since I was a closeted teen there is still much more to be done. And with each step taken those who oppose gay rights will amp up their campaign. My fear is for those that it will be taken out on in a personal manner.


Daryl

_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

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#365984 - 07/14/11 06:25 PM Re: Virginia schools intolerant? [Re: prisonerID]
Fissy Tsickens Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/23/08
Posts: 466
Loc: Bassett, Virginia
Ed:

As Daryl states above, some of this data came from students self-identified as gay. I've had to deal with a few situations in my career in public education here in VA, for the past 20+ years. This isn't one student kidding around with another. This is harassment and abuse.

My own student years in public school (in NY) were HELL. I was called fag and queer, I was pushed around, beaten up, you name it...and I was already very confused as this happened during my years of abuse. This has caused a lot of damage to me.

Regarding the data being bogus because the participants volunteered the information, well, that's pretty much how all data is gathered these days. Other than coercing it out of prison inmates and POW's, I don't know how else you'd get it. I don't think the scientific community is into waterboarding. ;o)

I'm not offended by your take; I just don't agree. Perhaps my experiences in life are very different than yours. Anyway, if we all agreed, the world would be a boring place.

Peace,

John

_________________________
Wish that I could cry
Fall upon my knees
Find a way to lie
About a home Iíll never see

It may sound absurd...but donít be naive
Even heroes have the right to bleed
I may be disturbed...but wonít you concede
Even heroes have the right to dream
Itís not easy to be me

Top
#365998 - 07/14/11 09:34 PM Re: Virginia schools intolerant? [Re: Fissy Tsickens]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16263
Daryl and John both make valid points. In point of fact there is no way one can draw the conclusion that the statement - - -

Quote:
the "homophobic" slurs are typical teen talk, calling each other "gay" just like urban black kids call each other "n*gger".

- - - is in actuality fact. If this study was conducted using a legitimate scientific approach it cannot be discounted simply by concluding that it's just kids being kids. I'm quite certain that the methodology of the testing is available in some cubbyhole of the internet and can be examined by interested parties either simply by reading it online or by request to the sponsoring organization.

_________________________
ďLifeís journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ĎHoly ____Ö! What a ride!íĒ ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#366017 - 07/15/11 07:53 AM Virginia schools intolerant?
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
I was gay when I was a kid and never saw any of this and this was in the 80's in a catholic school. I never saw it toward me or anyone else. Ever. Just because its reported in the media doesn't mean it happens on a grand scale. Definitely some kids are subject to extreme bullying but those cases are not limited to homosexual kids but bullies bullying weaker people regardless of their orientation.

The polling is bad science whatever people want to say. Only 234 gay kids responded in VA. That means either there are only 234 gay kids in VA or there are many more who could not have been bothered to respond. Either way, its not indicative of a true cross section of the population to be evaluated. You always have to understand who didn't respond; in this case, other gay kids who weren't subject to abuse.

Iit is a self-serving poll. The only people who will respond are the ones who have an interest in responding. That is a prima facie case of bad polling. There's nothing neutral about it, its biased in its format and the results are skewed because of who will reply.

Hit the link, read the poll and the polling methods. There's no distance in this poll from the subjects. If you looked up the definition of "bad polling", this would fit.

In polls like this, you really have to understand the amount of kids who didn't respond because they didn't need to respond. Many. many, many more kids are not subject to hostility.

I want to add that even though I don't like polls like this, I can only imagine how bad some people's experiences are with being bullied. My older brother bullied me but not to the extent some kids are bullied repeatedly by other kids on a nonstop basis. I understand this and I truly sympathize and think that childhood bullies should be punished harshly and quickly and that too many adults ignore it or even subtly encourage it. I think the anti-bullying movement is a great thing and I understand why a poll like this might be very meaningful to some people as a reflection of their experience. I still disagree with the methods but I get why this is an emotional issue for some.



Edited by EdfromNYC (07/15/11 08:08 AM)
Edit Reason: more balance
_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#366142 - 07/17/11 11:52 PM Re: Virginia schools intolerant? [Re: EdfromNYC]
Fissy Tsickens Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/23/08
Posts: 466
Loc: Bassett, Virginia
Hi, Ed.

Perhaps the research is invalid. But if it brings attention to the problem and helps even one kid, it's worth it.

NO child should have to be subjected to abuse, especially at school, which should be a safe place for students.

Thanks for taking the time to weigh in on this matter.

Peace,

John

_________________________
Wish that I could cry
Fall upon my knees
Find a way to lie
About a home Iíll never see

It may sound absurd...but donít be naive
Even heroes have the right to bleed
I may be disturbed...but wonít you concede
Even heroes have the right to dream
Itís not easy to be me

Top
#366378 - 07/22/11 02:58 AM Re: Virginia schools intolerant? [Re: Fissy Tsickens]
grumplestiltskin Offline


Registered: 04/14/11
Posts: 30
Loc: Denver CO
My school years were rough in terms of bullying and homophobia. At least until I changed schools to an overseas school. Spent a year at a Catholic high school which was pretty bad, but nothing compared to the public school I attended for middle school. There are definitely schools where bullying and abuse are totally ignored by adults in charge. I'm sure it's a bad but it doesn't mean there's not a real problem. Just like those ridiculous stats about 300K child sex slaves in the US. They both mean well, but why not use real facts?


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#366401 - 07/22/11 02:13 PM Re: Virginia schools intolerant? [Re: grumplestiltskin]
Zack Offline


Registered: 07/22/11
Posts: 3
Loc: Oklahoma
I guess I'll way in on this one too. I was a middle of the road kid in school but I was harrassed and bullied by certain people all through school starting with my first day in the 3rd grade. I was called fag and gay and this was in the 3rd grade. Some people never let up, not for a minute. I was beat up a few times and once severely and I was called fag & queer while it was happening. The beating messed up the vision in one eye permanently. Nothing was done by the police for the incident even though I was able to identify 3 of the individuals involved. One of the police men even said that it wouldn't have happened if I didn't act so "snotty & girlie". I was laying in a hospital bed and the police were basically blaming me for being beaten.

So Ed, I'm really glad that you never experienced anything like this. I grew up in rural Oklahoma and I was neither snotty or girlie, I was smart and I didn't play football and ultimately that was the problem.

Zack.


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#366431 - 07/23/11 01:38 AM Re: Virginia schools intolerant? [Re: EdfromNYC]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 725
Loc: United States
Hey Ed,

You seem to have methodological concerns on how the research was conducted that lead you to declare it "meaningless". Can you share your concerns and the process you went through to come to this conclusion? My analysis shows that this is a trustworthy and transparent piece of research.

The article that was linked to makes a clear statement about the Margin of Error (MoE) for the Virginia element of this study. The MoE takes the 234 respondent sample size into account and indicates the statistical chance of a number being wrong:

Quote:
The 2009 GLSEN survey features responses from 7,261 lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender students, ages 13-21, from all 50 states and Washington, D.C. Of those, 234 students are from Virginia. The margin of error for Virginia-based findings is 7 percent.

Coming to a Margin of Error calculation is a well established science. The seven percent margin of error means that the percentages quoted in the article may be off by only +/-7% of the number in question. Let's take the numbers in the article:

Quote:
Among the conclusions drawn by the survey: 85 percent of gay students regularly heard homophobic remarks; 37 percent were physically harassed due to their sexual orientation; and 21 percent were physically assaulted.

This means that assuming the maximum margin of error in both directions the 85 percent of gay students who regularly heard homophobic remarks could be as low as 78% or as high as 92%, that the 37 percent who were physically harassed due to their sexual orientation could be as low as 30% and as high as 44%, and that the 21 percent who were physically assaulted could be as low as 14% or as high as 28%. It's most probable that the true number is very close to the actual number reported. Any way you read them, these number are far from meaningless.

The stated purpose of the study is to understand the experience of gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender youth in school (see highlighted below) so it seems entirely appropriate and reasonable that they would recruit them as their target respondents rather than kids who aren't gay lesbian, bixexual or transgender. GLSEN has been around for 20 years and...:

Quote:
For 10 of those years, GLSEN has been documenting the school experiences of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) youth: the prevalence of anti-LGBT language and victimization, the effect that these experiences have on LGBT studentsí achievement and the utility of interventions to both lessen the negative effects of a hostile climate and promote a positive educational experience. In 1999, GLSEN identified the need for national data on the experiences of LGBT students and launched the first National School Climate Survey (NSCS). At the time, the school experiences of LGBT youth were under-documented and nearly absent from national studies on adolescents. The NSCS remains one of the few studies to examine the school experiences of LGB students nationally and is the only national study to include transgender students. The results of the survey have been vital to GLSENís understanding of the issues that LGBT students face, thereby informing our ongoing work to ensure safe and affirming schools for all.

Based on my review, this appears to be a long running and well respected study with a sound methodology and which is widely cited in the broader scientific literature. I'm interested in hearing the reasons you dismiss it so completely.

There are plenty of studies that look at bullying in school age children that find the bullying of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender kids and people perceived to be lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender in the broader school age population. There are also plenty of studies that show kids are bullied because of race.

So far all you've done is make an assertion with no data or analysis to support it. If you have a *scientific* argument to make, please make it so it can be part of the discussion.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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