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#365471 - 07/05/11 02:31 AM Cuteness and ASA
CruxFidelis Offline


Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 486
Loc: NJ
I can't help but to notice that a lot of victims of childhood sexual abuse often place photos of themselves as their avatars on here. Often these photos are not current photos, but rather, photos of them in childhood. I have seen this trend not just here but in a lot of PSA's, booklets, videos, etc that have either female CSA or male CSA as a theme. The photos are so much more than what they appear--they become powerful symbols of the innocence of childhood, and the pain that ensues when that innocence is taken away. As a father, I can't help but to feel this primordial desire to protect those young faces from the gaze of people who intend to do harm.

I have seen collages of photographs of children who were abused. It can be such a powerful statement of the magnitude of childhood abuse. But what would it look like if a similar collage was made with pictures of ASA victims around the time they were assaulted? I suppose I wouldn't volunteer for such a venture. Heaven forbid, someone comes on here, sees my picture and says "Hey, I know that guy!" Childhood photos are less likely to be recognized.

Physical anthropologists, philosophers of aesthetics, and evolutionary scholars have long asked the question, "What is cuteness?" It is mostly associated with childlike features like big eyes, a little pouty mouth, button nose, short limbs, a bigger head. It is why Mickey Mouse is so irresistable, why women shave their legs, and why people put Hello Kitty on everything regardless of how obnoxious that is. From an evolutionary standpoint, our brains are wired to recognize juvenile features in both children and adults, and these features trigger the human instinct to nurture and protect those who are perceived as vulnerable. Obviously there are individuals whose instincts are broken, because abuse isn't a matter of the child not being cute enough, it is a matter of the adult's thinking being so disordered that instead of looking out for the child's well being, they abuse the child instead.

There's nothing cute about me when I was raped and assaulted. It has nothing to do with handsomeness or aesthetics, but 5:00 shadow, chest hair and other features of a grown man just don't elicit that "cuteness response." And that's OK because I don't need people pinching at my cheeks or saying they could just eat me up. That would be weird! But it's something I think about. Could the fact that ASA gets so little attention from the media, the academic community, psychotherapists, etc... because we weren't cute when we were assaulted? Even if a man is older and grown up, if he says he was abused as a child, I can think of that inner child and it triggers that protective, fatherly quality in me. I don't have an inner child to sympathize with.

Does anyone else wonder about this?

I might not have had the innocence of a child when I was assaulted, but I maintain that I was INNOCENT, as in, I did nothing wrong. I might not have had the irresistible cuteness of a child when I was assaulted, but I still had the right to my own body. We all are here because one way or another, we could not protect ourselves when it happened. We were mature adults, but does that make us any less deserving of support and acknowledgment?

_________________________
“If a man wishes to be sure of the road he treads on, he must close his eyes and walk in the dark.”

- Saint John of the Cross

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#365477 - 07/05/11 08:53 AM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: CruxFidelis]
prisonerID Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
You bring up some interesting thoughts here. Studies show that attractiveness in general plays a huge role in many areas. I have read so many articles about how it plays a part in hiring and promotions. I myself do not base it on that since I have seen other managers hire based on "boobs and legs" assessments. I hire quality folk and often other departments seek to steal them. I then remind that manager that hiring on the basis of cleavage does not get the demands of the job done.

Race has come under fire for those that go missing - the blonde/blue eyed phenomenon. It does seem that Caucasian women get more air time than those of color.

Then we have gender bias in that young adult men who go missing do not get their faces plastered all over the television sets, online or on Nancy Grace. I recall an article where it appeared a serial killer was targeting college age guys. They were usually attacked when vulnerable - like leaving a bar under the influence of alcohol and walking alone. I never saw much mention after that about it. There were several victims and yet little was really said about it.

Trigger warning:

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=4742858&page=1

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/24366804/ns/today/t/smiley-face-killer/

I have read many postings here from CSA guys of how they feel, as a population, less recognized or sympathized with in relation to abused girls. That as boys, and now men, they must swallow harder and pull their boots up faster in relation to what was done to them. I guess "move on" at a quicker pace.

I think there are many reasons why the issues of ASA men are not looked at closely. You bring up a pretty valid argument here and what I wrote above would fall in line with your theory. I do not know if you had a chance to read the link I posted the other day but many things in it showed some of the attitude held by those in the service arena for the abused/assaulted.

But if CSA boys are expected to just deal with it more than girls I would say we would have that expectation thrust upon us at a very high level by many. I know I have had therapists for whom I served as a guinea pig. They tried I think but seemed a bit out of their element on many issues that I was trying to deal with at the time.

More than anything your writing has again spurred within me a desire to ask the experts. These past several months I have beat the pavement and the internet highway seeking answers. I got lots of "nos" and "maybe one days". I think it would be interesting to address this to the therapeutic community. Would it not be fascinating to go to a conference that had an open forum? To stand and ask a panel of renowned experts on abuse why this corner is left virtually unattended?

And what if it was a panel of well respected authors and therapists who dealt almost exclusively with male sexual abuse? Might make a ticket to the next conference in New York City a bit more worth it if it was possible to do that.

Thanks for the head scratching.


Daryl

_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

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#365485 - 07/05/11 12:50 PM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: prisonerID]
CruxFidelis Offline


Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 486
Loc: NJ
Originally Posted By: prisonerID

Race has come under fire for those that go missing - the blonde/blue eyed phenomenon. It does seem that Caucasian women get more air time than those of color.

Then we have gender bias in that young adult men who go missing do not get their faces plastered all over the television sets, online or on Nancy Grace.


I couldn't finish the articles you posted about the smiley face killer, but I see exactly what you're saying. I question the ethics of plastering the faces of victims of violent crime all over the place, male or female. If I were brutally killed by some psycho for his sexual gratification, I would not want my photos all over the place. I wouldn't want my face to be remembered that way. But why would it be any less disheartening for a man to go missing than a woman? Isn't it just as heartbreaking for a wife to lose a husband, than a husband to lose a wife? Does it matter if he is black, white, Asian, Hispanic, Indian, whatever?

You mentioned the fact that many women get hired in the workplace based on cleavage and not brains or experience. It is a fact of life that there are people out there who just go by what they see, and don't think to look beyond. I do think physical attractiveness is different from cuteness. An adult can possess both qualities, I think. I'm not attracted to men so it would follow that I personally don't find facial hair and huge muscles to be attractive. But for gay men and straight women, those are aspects of a man's appearance that can be thought of as physically attractive, even if it doesn't make him "cute" like a baby duck or a kitten. I can look at a grown woman and see qualities in her that are "cute"--my wife has an adorable little heart shaped face, and sometimes she gives me these puppy-dog eyes that I can't say no to. That's called neoteny, which is when an adult retains characteristics that are usually seen in children. It has a lot to do with sexual selection and is generally considered an evolutionary advantage. I have not read much about the subject, but it is interesting to me, the way peoples' brains are wired to recognize certain qualities as cute, and cuteness serves a purpose. I spend a lot of time around women because I live with my wife and two sisters, and they spend a lot of time talking about various anti aging treatments. I could let it bore me to tears, but sometimes it makes me wonder...What's wrong with looking like you're 40 at 40? Or 60 at 60? Why is it that women are so preoccupied with looking girlish well into middle age? Why isn't neoteny as much of an evolutionary advantage in men as it is in women?

You mentioned that many of the men here who have CSA have said that they feel like their experiences are more misunderstood because of our culture's "boys don't cry" mentality. In a sense, I think that mentality serves an evolutionary purpose... it is hard for a young man to be ready to defend himself and develop the skills he needs to provide if he is so easily brought to tears. For women, tears get you what you want. It's why my wife gets pulled over for driving like a maniac but never gets a ticket. I have a 1-year old son so I kiss a lot of boo-boos, probably like 10 or 20 a day. There's going to come a time where he needs to suck it up and take care of himself. But isn't everyone entitled to a breaking point, and aren't some acts just beyond the pale? Sexual abuse knocks you to the ground at any age and you can't expect them to get up and walk when the wounds are too severe.

I cried during my assaults, probably the first time I shed tears in years. I was never a stoic but it took a lot to make me cry, and to me crying in front of another man is the ultimate shame. It was the only way my body could release some of the tension and in the end the tears did NOTHING to change my situation. They only gave the perpetrator another excuse to humiliate me. I was reduced to a blubbering, infantile mess. It confirmed what my dad always told me when I was a boy: "Sure, you can cry. But it won't get you anywhere. It doesn't change anything. Do what you have to do."

I agree with your statement that the therapeutic community doesn't want to look at this issue under the same magnifying glass as they look at CSA and other issues. A grown man being assaulted, stripped of all of his control, is just an ugly image. Lord knows it's an image I'd love to get out of my head. Sexual assault can affect men regardless of whether they are physically considered attractive, but in general we lack the "cuteness" factor that triggers the protection-nurture response in others--including mental health professionals and crisis response personnel. Is cuteness necessary to "redeem" the experience of sexual assault? No, not at all. But it doesn't change the fact that the bias is there.

_________________________
“If a man wishes to be sure of the road he treads on, he must close his eyes and walk in the dark.”

- Saint John of the Cross

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#365486 - 07/05/11 01:20 PM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: CruxFidelis]
Still Offline
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Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6367
Loc: 2 NATO Nations
A couple of things: 1) I have a problem wit the concept of "Cuteness." I actually fear it as a topic and a feature of people. I don't really get what it is regarding adults looking at children. That's what scares me. Is recognizing cuteness the first step down a very wrong path? How does an adult man call a boy "cute" without a degree of sexual appeal being involved? When I was a kid, I'd freak when an adult or teen girl would call me "cute." My sisters had lots of girl friends who felt they were allowed to hug me, touch my hair or whatever. All I wanted was to not be cute to anyone!

I'm sure its a survivor/victim thing, but I just don't get recognized cuteness. I'd really appreciate insight on this in another thread. I don't what to hi-jack this thread.

2) As an elder-teen and 20 something, I was very athletic like I was as a child. I forever was fighting-off and avoiding creepy older men wanting to "know me better." I'd be at a nightclub and my friends would say "ahhh..Rob....those guys are gawking at your ass." It would disturb me greatly (like off the charts 'greatly'). I really resented anyone looking at me like that.

I'm sorry if this is not a fit to what responses you seek. I just wanted to throw that in. 1) I don't get the cute concept and 2) People with bad intent ARE in fact drawn to adult men.



Edited by Robbie Brown (07/05/11 01:24 PM)
Edit Reason: syntax
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#365488 - 07/05/11 01:34 PM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: CruxFidelis]
pufferfish Offline
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Registered: 02/26/08
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post deleted



Edited by pufferfish (06/21/12 12:25 AM)

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#365490 - 07/05/11 02:35 PM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: Still]
CruxFidelis Offline


Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 486
Loc: NJ
About your first point:

I could see how as a CSA victim, being told you were cute would just not sit right. As a child, you were introduced to sexual things that no child should have any clue about. A child who was not sexually abused may not interpret the "cute" comments as sexual because they have an age-appropriate level of understanding regarding sex. Seeing life through the lens of CSA might mean you have a different perspective than I do. I am sorry if the topic triggered that fear, but in my mind cuteness and sexual appeal are very different things.

From an evolutionary standpoint, cuteness is associated with children because they are vulnerable and need constant protection and nurturing to get them from infancy into functional adulthood. As a species, humans have a ridiculously long childhood and adolescence seems to get longer with every generation. The more independent children become, often the less cute they are perceived. In my mind, when an adult comments that a child is sweet/cute/adorable, that endearment is a function of that adult's desire to protect and nurture someone who is dependent on others. It should have absolutely nothing to do with sex.

Second point:

I do understand the fear of the "gaze" of older adults who may not have innocent intentions. I also have a huge fear of being sexualized or fetishized as an adult. Not going into that today.



Edited by CruxFidelis (07/05/11 02:39 PM)
Edit Reason: forgot something
_________________________
“If a man wishes to be sure of the road he treads on, he must close his eyes and walk in the dark.”

- Saint John of the Cross

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#365492 - 07/05/11 04:01 PM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: CruxFidelis]
Lesser1 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 19
Please excuse me if I've lost the point... was the subject of this thread pointing to "cuteness" as

1) a reason a perp would attack

or

2) a reason there is near non-existent support for ASA survivors?

or

3) both

I DON'T FEEL THIS WAY... (presenting the negative only to make the point) Imagine the response if it were suggested that support (and handling by professionals) for ASA women should be exactly the same as that received by ASA men.

Thank you for this thread,

Les


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#365493 - 07/05/11 04:38 PM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: Lesser1]
CruxFidelis Offline


Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 486
Loc: NJ
2.

I don't even think that as a man, I even want the same support as women. Even still, the disparity should be a source of shame for the psychological community.

_________________________
“If a man wishes to be sure of the road he treads on, he must close his eyes and walk in the dark.”

- Saint John of the Cross

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#365518 - 07/05/11 11:40 PM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: CruxFidelis]
pufferfish Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6815
Loc: USA
post deleted


Edited by pufferfish (06/21/12 12:26 AM)

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#365520 - 07/05/11 11:51 PM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: pufferfish]
CruxFidelis Offline


Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 486
Loc: NJ
For the purposes of clarity, yes, I was mostly discussing the first definition of cuteness , or rather applying some stuff I have been reading about the philosophy of aesthetics and the evolutionary advantages of cuteness to my own experiences as an ASA survivor. I see definition #2 as more of a slang term to describe physical attractiveness, but it has nothing to do with the type of bias I was describing against people with ASA... A man who is raped could have been "cute" by that definition, or he could have been unattractive, but either way, I'd say that grown men in general are not "Cute" by the standards of definition #1 and that is why I think a low priority has been placed on our cause compared to other causes.

As for #3, that seems like a more informal definition as well, and while I've heard it used that way it isn't what I was getting at.

_________________________
“If a man wishes to be sure of the road he treads on, he must close his eyes and walk in the dark.”

- Saint John of the Cross

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#365523 - 07/06/11 12:04 AM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: pufferfish]
CruxFidelis Offline


Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 486
Loc: NJ
Originally Posted By: pufferfish

Last night I watched a dvd on Dogs Decoded. It was mostly an excellent educational dvd. It showed various puppies, including wolf and fox puppies. They're all cute. By about 8 weeks they start to lose their cuteness. Even the ugliest dog was a cute puppy! Same is true with people.


I do think that is very true... it is interesting how human childhood is so drawn out compared to other species. Even when you factor the average length of lifespan, we spend an awful large percentage of our lives dependent on others. It's because our brains are such complex neural structures that it takes that long to our brains to catch up to our bodies.

Originally Posted By: pufferfish

You mention Mickey Mouse. Perhaps it is of interest that the man who instituted my abuse with taking moving pictures when I was 4 was a major cartoonist. (NOT WD). I'm not free to give the name.



That is disturbing on so many levels. I am sorry if that may have triggered you.

Originally Posted By: pufferfish

In my case I found that I had some level of DID or DIDNOS (Dissociative Identity Disorder). When I remembered the abuse when I was about age 45 I became very much aware that I was still 12-years-old.


I am so glad to hear that you have found healing in EMDR and that you've been able to reconnect with that 12-year old inside. My wife was diagnosed with DID-NOS and treatment is very tricky because her abuse happened at the hands of a therapist, so there is a lot of mistrust towards therapy and recovery in general. I do hope healing is possible for her...somehow, but lately it has been getting me down. I am very familiar with encountering those younger versions of her. How long have you been in therapy for DID? when were you diagnosed?

While I don't have any inner child issues, I do think of my life as pre-assault and post-assault, and when I think of myself before the assault it is like encountering a different man. I really thought that being an adult meant that we didn't have to go through identity crises anymore.

_________________________
“If a man wishes to be sure of the road he treads on, he must close his eyes and walk in the dark.”

- Saint John of the Cross

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#365528 - 07/06/11 01:34 AM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: CruxFidelis]
Still Offline
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Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6367
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Originally Posted By: CruxFidelis
... A child who was not sexually abused may not interpret the "cute" comments as sexual because they have an age-appropriate level of understanding regarding sex. Seeing life through the lens of CSA might mean you have a different perspective than I do. ...

...In my mind, when an adult comments that a child is sweet/cute/adorable, that endearment is a function of that adult's desire to protect and nurture someone who is dependent on others. It should have absolutely nothing to do with sex.


Well, I get actively freaked, uncomfortable and repulsed when an adult male calls any boy or girl "a cute kid" or "a cute little guy." In my mind, he's saying, "he's HOT!" or "She's HOT!" I guess I'm wired for seeing this human trait as a threat or pre-sex vocalization of attraction. I truly have never know what to make of it other than that.

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#365529 - 07/06/11 02:03 AM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: Still]
pufferfish Offline
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Registered: 02/26/08
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Loc: USA
deleted


Edited by pufferfish (06/21/12 12:27 AM)

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#365538 - 07/06/11 03:48 AM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: pufferfish]
CruxFidelis Offline


Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 486
Loc: NJ
As a man who hasn't experienced CSA but rather ASA, that is not how I look at it. I have a 1 year old son and it is like cuteness central over here. It seems weird to me to even imagine looking at a baby and not thinking they are cute. He is what reminds me that there is still goodness in the world. I would have fallen apart without him.

I remember so clearly who I was before my rape and assault. Yet, at the same time, I forget life without my child. I can't imagine a day going by where I don't see that little tiny toddler with my name and my smile.

It is sad that the abuse children can experience can cause them to hate their own cuteness. I was not discussing cuteness as a sexual thing though. I feel misunderstood.

_________________________
“If a man wishes to be sure of the road he treads on, he must close his eyes and walk in the dark.”

- Saint John of the Cross

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#365555 - 07/06/11 02:38 PM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: CruxFidelis]
Still Offline
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Its sad. THis is actually a very painful topic. It brings-on panic. This was a topic I was gonna broach with Mr T when I was ready. But I'm glad ya'll are confirming some of my suspicions.

I actually can't see "cuteness" in kids. My daughter is forever falling for certain boys on TV or RL. She'll say, "OMG isn't he cute?!" I just say "I guess...if you think so." But I'm repulsed by the idea and my heart always sinks.

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#365558 - 07/06/11 03:03 PM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: Still]
CruxFidelis Offline


Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 486
Loc: NJ
as a side note, i like the fact that you call your therapist, "Mr. T."

About the comment about not being able to see "cuteness" in kids. As far as I recall, your daughter is a young teenager, right? If a teenage girl says a boy is "cute" she is probably expressing the fact that she is discovering that she has sexual desires. I probably would have said the same awkward comment if it were my teenage daughter.... because, really, there is noting cute about a teenage boy from a [healthy] adult's perspective. A teenage girl making a comment about one of her peers being "cute" has a sexual connotation that an adult saying a child is cute should not have. If this is on your mind a lot, and it is bothering you, mentioning it to Mr. T is not a bad idea.

The cuteness I was mentioning before has to do with the fact that I think it is easier for mental health professionals to identify with the CSA survivor who is struggling, because they sympathize with the sad, innocent, troubled little child inside the hurting man or woman. But with ASA, it seems like there are some survivors here who have asked nearly every sexual abuse advocacy organization out there about help for men who were abused/assaulted as adults and there is no help for us, there are no Mike Lew superstar types who are putting out books filled with support, there are no ASA themed recovery retreats, there are no conferences, or support groups for spouses/significant others of men with ASA. Instead of having a hurt, confused, little kid inside to sympathize with, I think mental health professionals simply see an adult man who should have KNOWN better.

A really dear friend here who is an ASA survivor has heard time & time again from advocacy orgs and local groups that they don't have any ASA resources. I can't help but to wonder if they are simply saying to us, "BE A MAN," "WALK IT OFF."

We lack cuteness, which is associated with vulnerability. Therefore, people can't wrap their minds around the fact that an adult man can be set up and made vulnerable in a sexual assault. They don't understand that being elderly, disabled, or sick can render a man just as helpless as a woman or child. Even in the military, men can be raped and assaulted. Men in the military are viewed as "killing machines" by people outside the armed forces. You have to be an "army of one." But sometimes even that army of one can be made powerless when he is set up by his peers. Again, we're not talking about a hurting, scared but still endearing little child but a brave soldier who has built himself up to look intimidating, not "cute". Is that surviving soldier any less deserving than the male survivor of CSA?

_________________________
“If a man wishes to be sure of the road he treads on, he must close his eyes and walk in the dark.”

- Saint John of the Cross

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#365577 - 07/06/11 11:18 PM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: CruxFidelis]
Still Offline
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Originally Posted By: CruxFidelis
About the comment about not being able to see "cuteness" in kids. As far as I recall, your daughter is a young teenager, right? If a teenage girl says a boy is "cute" she is probably expressing the fact that she is discovering that she has sexual desires.


She's 10...and not allowed to have such views...LOL.

The boy is 12. if you talk about his "GIRLfriend" he'll hit you. If you say..."OK...so you don't have a girlfriend..." he'll hit you.

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#365582 - 07/07/11 12:07 AM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: Still]
CruxFidelis Offline


Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 486
Loc: NJ
Those tween years sure can be rough on a Dad, I guess it gets worse before it gets better. my little boy just started saying "no" with wild abandon. Although it sounds more like "NOPE" so he will just scream "NOPE NOPE NOPE" across the room whenever he doesn't get his way.

_________________________
“If a man wishes to be sure of the road he treads on, he must close his eyes and walk in the dark.”

- Saint John of the Cross

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#365621 - 07/07/11 05:08 PM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: CruxFidelis]
Still Offline
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But back to the "cuteness" issue surrounding SA: I don't think it had one ounce to do with the creeps who used me. I really think it was all about me being a safe and certain as possible. I was the tops in vulnerability and non-consequence. They knew my home life and family were not in any way an issue of risk and the entire neighborhood was certain I would be sent away at some point for the knife thing. There just was not that whole pedo thing going on there.

_________________________
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#365656 - 07/08/11 09:17 AM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: Still]
prisonerID Offline
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Registered: 02/17/08
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Loc: Oklahoma
I was thinking on a meeting that I was a part of a couple of years ago. I work with what is termed "at-risk youth". In one meeting one man was recommending we separate a young man from our program for his behavior. He was not a very attractive kid, hygiene challenged and had a piss poor attitude. Not that I do not have a hundred files of those on hand!

What really got to me was in the case discussion right before that we were discussing a female. She was very attractive but pure hell on wheels. The same gentleman was recommending we retain her and continue to seek to help her.

After the meeting I was asked by a colleague why I "almost came across the table at" the other guy. I told her that I could not handle the double standard and if one went they should both go. If one stayed then they both should be kept in our program.

I think you can easily see the same bias that I witnessed on that day and on many others as well. Peter, I also think this might go along with the point you are trying to make here.


Daryl

_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

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#365668 - 07/08/11 01:36 PM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: prisonerID]
pufferfish Offline
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Registered: 02/26/08
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.



Edited by pufferfish (06/21/12 12:32 AM)

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#365700 - 07/09/11 12:55 AM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: prisonerID]
CruxFidelis Offline


Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 486
Loc: NJ
I can see what you're saying, Daryl. It seems like that girl received preferential treatment, probably not because she was "cute" as I was describing before (i.e. the naturally adorable appearance of babies and children) but maybe because she was pretty--easy on the eyes. If it's the second scenario, humans are often biased against the unattractive because we're wired to gravitate more towards people who exhibit characteristics that are consistent with good health (i.e. busty women who aren't overweight, symetrical facial features, healthy hair, and on men large muscles). It's a natural selection thing. The sad fact is that the boy might have been hygiene-challenged because no one told him how to take care of himself. When I taught in the inner city, there were a few times I sat down with a particular student because some other students were complaining that he smelled bad. Yeah, it's repellent. People often don't realize the bias they have, but it's there. He didn't know that you had to shampoo your hair and then use conditioner. He just thought he could use conditioner to wash his hair. I told him I used the 2-in-1 kind. He also thought deodorant was something you used instead of taking a shower, not after taking a shower.

The young man and the young woman both had similar issues with bad conduct, but the young woman was thought of as more deserving of help because she was attractive. Were those coworkers making that decision on a conscious level? Were they aware of their bias? No, I imagine they were not aware until you made them aware. In a lot of was, I think that our brains are naturally wired to size others up based on outward appearances, because it is somehow linked to survival and choosing the right mate with the right genetics. That being said, as human beings we have the ability to rise above our baser urges. We can become aware of these instincts, and temper them with rational thought. We can learn to consider other factors besides outward appearances.

Yeah, I didn't experience any abuse in my childhood. I made that journey to adulthood without too many scars. Still, although the abuse did not happen during a formative period in my life, it doesn't mean that there aren't tons of other challenges we face when rape occurs in a life stage other than childhood. Very little is written about this from the perspective of developmental psychology. Maybe it would explain why I am still so messed up.

_________________________
“If a man wishes to be sure of the road he treads on, he must close his eyes and walk in the dark.”

- Saint John of the Cross

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#365769 - 07/11/11 02:06 AM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: CruxFidelis]
Still Offline
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Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6367
Loc: 2 NATO Nations
Originally Posted By: CruxFidelis
...A really dear friend here who is an ASA survivor has heard time & time again from advocacy orgs and local groups that they don't have any ASA resources. I can't help but to wonder if they are simply saying to us, "BE A MAN," "WALK IT OFF." We lack cuteness, which is associated with vulnerability. Therefore, people can't wrap their minds around the fact that an adult man can be set up and made vulnerable in a sexual assault.


I'll leave out who said this but many will know him: "We see "Save The Dolphin" efforts getting out of control and proliferating our kids schools, groups, TV, etc. They have demonized the tuna fishermen who inadvertently capture the occasional Dolphin. The Dolphin typically dies and THAT is a horroible poutcome to the tuna-fishing effort. Thus, feel-good-oriented consumers have shifted their tuna-can purchases to those brands that promise "Tuna-Friendly Methods."

Why does no one give a flying flip about the poor TUNA???? Answer: Cuz they ain't CUTE!

We all new this was true about the earth's inhabitants when we were kids. We knew this shit-hole was puddlee-deep! When WE had to deal with substantial and life/death issues, the world around us was hung-up on shallow looks!

Janis Ian is a folk singer, songwriter, musician and author. Janis Ian is best known for her song At Seventeen which was a commentary on teenage angst brought about by her own insecurities in high school. Janis Ian felt ugly with her brown curly hair and brown eyes compared to the taller blonde hair cheerleaders. At Seventeen earned Janis Ian a Grammy Award.

Keep making me puke world! You've done a perfect job to date!

Sincerely: The Tuna

_________________________
Jesus Loves The Hell Outta Me!

Still's Globs

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#366865 - 07/29/11 12:37 AM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: Still]
pufferfish Offline
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Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6815
Loc: USA
deleted


Edited by pufferfish (06/21/12 12:27 AM)

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#366879 - 07/29/11 02:58 AM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: pufferfish]
CruxFidelis Offline


Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 486
Loc: NJ
I am sorry if this thread brought up any painful memories. Your story about looking back on your parents' parenting methods is interesting. I think sometimes when abuse takes place in childhood, to some degree the survivor can be "stuck" looking at people from their past from a child's point of view... but being able to see your parents' weaknesses while at the same time, understanding that they loved you in the way they knew how, is a very mature outlook and it shows a lot of growth on your part. Cuteness aside, there is no reason for an adult to ever hurt a child the way you were hurt. No reason whatsoever.

I just want to clarify that I never meant to argue that a child's cuteness was in any way a factor in if/why they were ever abused, but rather my focus has been on how I think the lack of research & attention being paid to ASA might be a result of the fact that we were not "cute" at the time of our abuse. Perpetrators commit sexual abuse because their minds are too demented and warped to look at a child in a healthy way. It is not that you were cute when you were a child--it is that the perpetrator was disgusting and disordered.

I think it is only natural for any victim of sexual abuse/assault, whether we are talking about ASA or CSA, to wonder "Why did it happen to me? Why not someone else? Was it because I was....?" It is a way in which our minds seek to create meaning and order out of senseless acts of cruelty. My intellect desires more than anything, to find something--anything--that I could have controlled in the conditions of my assault. It wants to discover something I could have done differently. When I blame myself for what was done to me, it makes it seem like I was in control of the situation, and then it would make sense. I so want things in my life to make sense!

I'm trying to make sense out of what you say about the boyhood pictures CSA survivors have posted. Do you think that by seeing the innocence in these other photos, that somehow you are able to see that you, too, were innocent and deserving of authentic love? Maybe to some degree it helps for childhood abuse survivors to "look back" and see that they were not a "garbage pail kid."

Also, when I think of cuteness, it is not just the way a child looks. It also can describe things children do that exhibit their wonder at this new, unfamiliar world all around them. For example, I think it is adorable & cute when my son tries a new food for the first time. The wide-eyed look of delight when he first tried a blueberry, and the surprise when it ended up turning his fingers blue. Everything is so new to him, and this naivete is what should call caring adults to nurture that sense of wonder & risk-taking, preserve the child's creativity, and protect him from letting his own curiosity get the better of him. That innocence is something inherent in every child, regardless of visual appearance.

As a survivor of ASA, not CSA, I wrestle with the fact that I wasn't a cute little child--not on the outside, not on the inside. I was a mature adult, and so I beat myself up because I should have known better. It is even more disturbing when I ask myself whether "knowing better" would have even done anything, or whether that is even the issue at hand. I imagine in my head sometimes, the faces of male ASA survivors. They are just that, imaginary. Because the men we were often don't look that different from the men we are now. We are fathers, brothers, husbands, significant others, coworkers, sons, and friends, and we don't show our faces because what will it accomplish besides evoking that sense of "You, as an adult, should have known better."

_________________________
“If a man wishes to be sure of the road he treads on, he must close his eyes and walk in the dark.”

- Saint John of the Cross

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#366910 - 07/29/11 03:47 PM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: CruxFidelis]
Rusty563 Offline
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Registered: 02/26/11
Posts: 200
Loc: Anywhere, USA
I was 8 when I was first molested. Nothing cute. Just a scrawny kid with a large forhead. Then by 13, my looks had changed and I became "cute." A man tried to moleste me at 13 but I got away from him.

By 15, 16, and 17, the years I was sexually abused and molested, my looks had changed even more and people started calling me "cute." This mattered to me with the girls but not so much with the men that were starting to pay attention.

I can say without a doubt at least 2 of the men that abused me picked me because of my looks (I was a Twink to them.) I began to hate for men to look at me. I felt like they were eyeing me up, checking me out, plotting, planning. Even then I felt like a piece of meat.

So, yes, at the ages I was abused, looks mattered and I dispise every minute of those days. I had them buried for 30+ years and now they're back.

Quote:
"You, as an adult, should have known better."


I'm going through this phase right now and the pain and shame is overwhelming. Why didn't I say "No?" Someone one just recently told me "Would you have said "No?" The answer is "No" because I didn't have the skills to back away and run. I was raised demoralized and hated so those men took from me my dignity all for the sake of attention and a perverted type of love. There was no saying, "No."

Rusty

P.S. Because of the ages of my abuse I'm never sure if I'm ASA or CSA. I don't fit in with the usual CSA members and the ASA members were much older adults when they were abused. I've always considered my circumstances "between" even though 15 and 16 are minors and not only was I abused but my circumstances fell under statutory rape. 17 is that between age. A minor but almost adult. So sorry if you guys feel I butted in where I didn't belong. I never know where I fit in.



Edited by Rusty563 (07/29/11 04:03 PM)
Edit Reason: added text
_________________________
There is no greater agony than bearing an untold story inside you - Maya Angelous
Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed - Martin Luther King
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qF_qbaWt3Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDOkMSf-F14

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#366923 - 07/29/11 04:42 PM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: Rusty563]
CruxFidelis Offline


Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 486
Loc: NJ
Originally Posted By: Rusty563

P.S. Because of the ages of my abuse I'm never sure if I'm ASA or CSA. I don't fit in with the usual CSA members and the ASA members were much older adults when they were abused. I've always considered my circumstances "between" even though 15 and 16 are minors and not only was I abused but my circumstances fell under statutory rape. 17 is that between age. A minor but almost adult. So sorry if you guys feel I butted in where I didn't belong. I never know where I fit in.


15, 16 & 17 fall squarely in adolescence, and unfortunately this is a distinction not many people make. When many of us were growing up, those ages meant high school, driving a car for the first time, and getting your first job. I don't know the exact circumstances of your abuse, and you don't have to go into that if you don't feel comfortable, but it's an age where you are still discovering who you are and how you want to live your life. While a lot has been written in the field of developmental and educational psychology about adolescence, often a lot of sexual abuse literature doesn't make that distinction which is unfortunate. 150 years ago, a 17-year old could establish himself in his own trade or plot of land to farm. Perhaps he already had a wife by that point. Most of the 17-year olds I taught when I was a high school teacher were still very dependent on their parents and didn't have that kind of direction. Many theorists have argued that adolescence is getting longer, and with that, perhaps more attention should be given to this unique time in a person's life.

Another thing that blurs the line of abuse at 15, 16 and 17 is that adolescents also voluntarily enter into sexual relationships at that age, mostly with other teenagers. Whether that's a good choice is debatable, but obviously there's a big difference between having sex with your high school sweetheart and the abuse you are describing. One is voluntary, the other is predatory. That is something I think you would have in common with people who have experienced ASA as opposed to CSA. Since some of your peers were probably entering into consensual sexual relationships with boyfriends and girlfriends, it can be confusing when you are being forced/coerced into a sexual experience by someone who is older.

My cousin is a preschool teacher. She has said to me, "If these kids weren't all so cute, I would throw them out the window!!!" I said to her (back when I taught high school) "I am tempted to throw my sullen sophomores out the window, but the problem is that they are just too heavy!" Today's SAT vocabulary word of the day is... Defenestration! I guess what I'm trying to say is that adolescents aren't objectively "cute" the way children are... Children tend to become less and less cute the more self-reliant they become. This has nothing to do with physical or sexual attractiveness.



Edited by CruxFidelis (07/29/11 04:48 PM)
_________________________
“If a man wishes to be sure of the road he treads on, he must close his eyes and walk in the dark.”

- Saint John of the Cross

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#366928 - 07/29/11 06:15 PM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: Still]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
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Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11026
Loc: Denver, CO
I've been watching this thread off and on, wondering about adding a two cents. My ASA was at 19yo, possibly even 20. I never considered this a time when I would have looked "cute." The perp was in his 60s, so the wide age difference could have helped see me as some "desirable young man" which turns my stomach in retrospect. Add to it that I had all kinds of social issues and was easily-controlled, and there's the situation.

Andy

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#366934 - 07/29/11 07:30 PM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: FormerTexan]
Rusty563 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/11
Posts: 200
Loc: Anywhere, USA
Just to clarify. My abusers were adult males. I did not solicit or entice them into having sex. Each one of them came after me. I NEVER sought out a sexual partner.





Edited by Rusty563 (07/29/11 07:36 PM)
_________________________
There is no greater agony than bearing an untold story inside you - Maya Angelous
Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed - Martin Luther King
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qF_qbaWt3Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDOkMSf-F14

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#366941 - 07/29/11 08:17 PM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: Rusty563]
prisonerID Offline
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Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
Rusty, I see nothing invasive about your post here and in fact I was very glad to read it. I think it is an amazing thing that we all stand here on the common ground as men who were sexually abused/assaulted. That we share something, though none of us ever wanted or sought it, that no matter who we are can bond us in a an incredible way.

Now, at the risk of offending some, I do firmly believe that is okay to go beyond the bedrock of that common ground and see that we are also of different soil. I do not see it as division to look at the variants beyond our commonalities. I can see why there was a need for a forum to serve members who were abused by women. There is a distinction between those who are gay survivors and those who struggle with SSA. Great respect is due to both sides of that coin.

There are different things to consider when it comes to the age of the victim/survivor. I know many balk at the term victim but it is where we begin I think in our recovery. It was not our fault what was done to us and therefore I am proud that today I can say I was a victim. I look at myself as a survivor today but I still was a victim that night. To refute that is to take back the blame that caused me to attempt to end my life on two occasions. I like my victim/survivor viewpoint and it works well for me.

But it is good to further explore the things that are more distinctive in male sexual abuse as well as what all share in common. I think of three areas - child, adolescent and adult. And each would benefit from further exploration by the therapeutic community. I do not see this as abandoning the commonalities that we all share but simply digging further into the finer points of individual recoveries. I know - many would say I sound like a broken record. That is okay but please know it is not a way for me to pull away from anyone here or MS itself. I believe with full conviction that this needs to be done. And to those who disagree I would challenge them to remember that at one time there were no male CSA books to differentiate from the female ones. And I see a need for adolescent emphasis as much as I do for adults. I think there is much more work to be done.

Rusty, thank you for your comments here and reminding us of this.

Crux, as usual you bring many thoughts to my mind and I echo and support what you wrote out here. Thank you for your continued comments on this thread.


Daryl

_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

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#367018 - 07/30/11 10:06 PM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: prisonerID]
oriolesguy Offline


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 106
Loc: Long Island, NY
Good points, you guys.

I can't agree with prisoner on the victim thing. Like you, Daryl, I was a victim once, but not now. I was a victim of rape, and all that went with it - embarrassment, shame, humiliation, fear, self-loathing and all that. But I have been able to shake those things, or most of them, so that I'm not a victim anymore. I am a survivor; I let my perpetrators make me a victim for a,long time. But that's over and the worst of all that is largely behind me. Or at least, I hope it is.

AS for the cute thing, yeah, I got the looks. I was the athlete, the jock, the one the girls went after. But none of it makes any difference now, and it should have made no difference then. NOT AT ALL. Who cares if I'm handsome or not? Point is, like prisoner said, we have one thing in common. Sexual abuse/assault. Makes no difference if I'm black, white, Jewish, gay, straight, Martian, whatever.

To be honest, I often thought that my good looks went against me, simply because I was raped. That was part of the guilt I placed upon myself. It was almost as though I had to find a reason to blame myself for what happened, and I guess I could use my appearance as a means for that.

You can't get caught up in the "I'm partly to blame for what happened because I'm cute" routine. That's a guilt trap, and one in which none of us belong. No guilt for any of us. It's an easy trap to fall into, and it can lead to self-pity, and other things.

I like to think positive in all this. I made it through. I can help other guys who have been through this. I can better deal with my emotions. I have made goals which help my self-development. It has made me think.... positively.

Hope this helps.

Oriolesguy



Oriolesguy


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#367033 - 07/31/11 12:09 AM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: oriolesguy]
WalkingSouth Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
Hmmm.... Oriolesguy,

The way I read your post and Daryl's post on the victim role you're both saying the same thing... Or are you reading a different board than I am?

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#367177 - 08/01/11 05:57 PM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: WalkingSouth]
pufferfish Offline
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Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6815
Loc: USA
.


Edited by pufferfish (06/21/12 12:29 AM)

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#367185 - 08/01/11 08:24 PM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: pufferfish]
TJ jeff Offline
Moderator
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Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 3362
Loc: Northern Wisconsin
I've refrained from responding to this post even though I've followed it for a while now...

I understand that the point that is trying to be made here is that it's easier to get the media's attention for a child who has been abused than for a man who has been abused - children are just naturaly cuter (perhaps for some a sort of parental protection instinct kicks in that they don't want to see any child hurt, ect.)

I do also know that in my experience cuteness had nothing to do with it - I was just plain and simply a convenient target - looks had nothing to do with it (though perhaps maybe my young age did)

_________________________
Who will cry for the little boy? - I will... - Antwone Fisher

Abuse happens in silence/isolation - Recovery happens only when that silence/isolation is broken...

TJ's History

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#367199 - 08/01/11 10:41 PM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: TJ jeff]
pufferfish Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6815
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.


Edited by pufferfish (06/21/12 12:29 AM)

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#368907 - 08/25/11 10:09 PM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: pufferfish]
lapchinj Offline
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Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1167
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: pufferfish
The main point I'm making is that according to that book he and his associates were looking out of an upstairs window watching boys pass. They were selecting the boys (for abuse) on the basis of their appearance.

http://www.amazon.com/Man-Candy-Jack-Olsen/dp/0743212835/


I just finished this book a few weeks ago. And these kids were picked because of their appearance. I can say without a doubt that I was taken for what I was to be doing because of my appearance (I was a gymnast).

I was used in many photo shoots because my appearance was what they were looking for, it sold magazines. I was also pimped for the same reason and because of my appearance I was never allowed to work the streets (somebody could make me disappear). I eventually got to hate my hair. It seemed always a starting point by photogs or guys with me, followed closely by removing my shirt. Also a point to be made was the fact that I was hairless. And I was referred to as a little girl because of it. I didn't see a hair on my face until age 23.

I was afraid that when I went into the USAF that I would be targeted for my hair being blond. I associated blond hair with attracting flies, it was a neon sign saying that I was open for business. I was thrilled that we all got a buzz cut by the second day of basic. I'm sure that having my hair cut off was a major reason I didn't have a problem in basic training. My hair was always long unless school made me cut it. The people in my other life wanted it long, I was more attractive. Because I was scared I had my hair cut shorter above the ears just before I left for basic training. I was teased all the time that I got extra time off because I didn't have to shave in the morning. It bothered me but it was said jokingly (I hope).

Jeff

_________________________

Stick around, It will get better....

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#368986 - 08/27/11 08:56 AM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: lapchinj]
prisonerID Offline
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Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
I think we look for little details that drew an abuser/assailant to us. I am sure there are little things that might attract some who have a "type". In general I think many just seek the most convenient target for their intended actions.

As someone who was attacked as an adult I think I would fall into the last category. I have struggled for many years as to why they picked me. I wrestled through it for so long with so many therapists. With my last one I finally began to see, through his patient but insistent guidance, that I needed to look less at me and more at them. I hated to begin to talk of them but over time they seemed less like the men I saw somehow drawn to me and more like the sick bastards that I see them as now. I also began, through this work, to see myself differently. I looked less at my outside appearance and more to who I was on the inside. It was not my fault that I had worked on my body at the gym and track. It was not my fault that I took pride in my appearance. It was not my fault that I wore those jeans or a certain tee. There is nothing wrong with my wanting to look attractive to other men.

I also have to remember that the things they said that night were simply psychological endeavors to make me believe that it was my fault and to keep me from coming forward with what was done that night. The words still crawl into me but I shake them off better these days.

I still have to remind myself of these things but these truths are deeper inside me than ever before. Maybe they did prefer guys with dark brown hair or my type of build. But that is still on them and not me. I will never know and have to find my peace without knowing a lot of things. If I were to wait for all the pieces there would be very little peace.






_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

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#369087 - 08/29/11 08:14 PM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: prisonerID]
oriolesguy Offline


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 106
Loc: Long Island, NY
Good point, Daryl. The cute appearance thing may add to the attraction for the perp, but on the overall I can't believe that any of us were picked on the basis of looks alone. And I'll take it one step further. If you look at this from the perp's view, he would have committed sexual assaults, if not on me, then on someone else. He probably would have committed the assault anyway. I guess looks can be a factor, but it's not the primary one.

We are born with our looks. True, we might enhance them by working out and so forth. But how we look is not our fault. Our look is not an invitation to be raped. Our looks, or cuteness, do not make us guilty. I fell into that for awhile and it took a year or so with a T to get it right. And as Daryl so aptly pointed out, we need to scrutinize the perpetrators more, and ourselves much less.

Joe


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#369745 - 09/08/11 03:46 AM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: oriolesguy]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1167
Loc: New York
So if not our looks then what. I know that there is the question of availability. If you happen to be there at the correct place and time then your it.

On the other hand when there is what to choose from i think that the looks get the nod. When I walked in midtown Manhattan there were many kids to choose from. You wouldn't bait a kid walking with an adult. I would constantly be baited as I walked the street. If I was waiting at a street corner I was approached and baited in some way. Someone would just give a small tug on my hair, or brush up against me. I could have been a target of opportunity but I think that looks have a great deal to do with choices being made.

If you go buy a car you choose the nicest model then pick the nicest color and finally the options. If what you want is not available then you buy the next best one. I used to see the construction workers at lunch break on the sidewalks watching the girls go by. It wasn't the frumpy women that got the cat calls and whilstles. This was all in the '60s but I don't think much has changed today.

Jeff

_________________________

Stick around, It will get better....

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#369748 - 09/08/11 08:08 AM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: lapchinj]
prisonerID Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
This thread broke off into two separate thought processes almost from the beginning. I honestly think the discussion on looks as a hook for an abuser or assailant to be "attracted" has been good. It has shown me how far I have come in not allowing my concentration to be so much on me but rather on my attackers and their sadistic intent.

But there was another part of this thread that seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle - the original part. The author of this thread was seeking to express the lack of attention given to men who are assaulted as adults. The "cuteness" factor was brought up merely as a way for him to convey the lack of attention given male ASA and if that was indeed a reason for the disparity in concern. I wish more attention had been given to that for I think it was a very interesting and important topic.


Daryl


_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

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#369888 - 09/10/11 11:41 PM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: prisonerID]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1167
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: prisonerID
This thread broke off into two separate thought processes almost from the beginning.
...
The author of this thread was seeking to express the lack of attention given to men who are assaulted as adults.

Sorry to have helped sidetrack the original discussion. I should read the whole thread before answering just the last few posts.

I hope it can get back on track. That is an important subject.

Sorry
Jeff



Edited by lapchinj (09/10/11 11:42 PM)
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#369889 - 09/10/11 11:54 PM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: lapchinj]
prisonerID Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
Jeff,

No apology necessary. I think both topics are worth fleshing out. It actually helped me to sort some of my own stuff out a bit in how I used to look at the attack that night.

You are more than fine.


Daryl

_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

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#369894 - 09/11/11 12:10 AM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: prisonerID]
lapchinj Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 1167
Loc: New York
hey Daryl,

Originally Posted By: prisonerID
JNo apology necessary. I think both topics are worth fleshing out.

Yeah I realize they're both important but I dislike derailing a thread that's important to the original person posting his thoughts.

I wish I could help getting this thread back on track but luckily I didn't have that problem.

Jeff

_________________________

Stick around, It will get better....

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#370220 - 09/15/11 10:27 PM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: lapchinj]
ModTeam Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 690
Everyone, please keep in mind that this forum is about Adult Sexual Assault, ASA, and not Child Sexual Abuse, CSA. While there may well be a certain amount of discussion of the differing or similar impacts of either as a topic unfolds, please do not "hijack" a thread in this forum from discussions of ASA to that of CSA.

Some replies to this thread have been removed due to departure from the intended discussion for this thread. We regret some replies have had a marginalizing tone, and therefore have removed them in an effort to bring the thread back on track.


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#370299 - 09/16/11 07:59 PM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: ModTeam]
Anomalous Offline
Greeter Coordinator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 03/07/10
Posts: 1341
Thank you.

Your attention to this problem is greatly appreciated.




Anomalous

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Acceptance on someone else's terms is worse than rejection.

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#371052 - 09/25/11 11:47 PM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: Anomalous]
SamV Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 5941
Loc: Talladega, Alabama, USA
There is so much I have survived in my life, both in my childhood, and as an adult. I wish to give to both parts of this thread, the men who have been told by society they have no resources to acknowledge their trauma, and that the appearance of a man can be a deciding factor to a perpetrator. As a card carrying member of both csa and asa in this community, I have been perpetrated in my youth and as an adult. Since this thread is concerning asa, I would speak to that.

Cute? I am not convinced:
The man that assaulted me was driven by self gratification. He approached me based on my lack of self confidence and a "follower" mentality. I am white, with Latino back round, I was 6'3", and weighed about 170 pounds. I was in a place I never should have been, with two other guys, one in his twenties, and one about my age, late teens. We were separated moments after we came into the place, and this man approached me and physically assaulted me in a private area that was difficult to get out of, an area that he seemed intimately familiar with and comfortable. I was in the place for a matter of moments, and the decision had already been made.

The de>
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#371810 - 10/06/11 09:11 AM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: SamV]
Tyr Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/05/11
Posts: 165
I do not think cuteness was a factor in my ASA. Rather, I went into a situation that I shouldnt' have been in. I am attractive and have muscles and all that jazz but I am not a bodybuilder- but i do have an innocent face and the perp wasnt violent. but created an opportunity and had his friend who was stronger, taller and slightly older than me restraint me,,, but even that wasnt needed since he could restrain me himself based on the opportunity created.

Crux no one is saying you were not innocent. but when i read the original post here, i am puzzled. i agree this is an adult SA forum and the CSA stuff is valid but should be discussed elsewhere.

what about elder abuse or the developmentally disabled. they cant report things that happen to them as easily as we could or can. are they "cute" .... by one definition who knows. however, they are a vulnerable population, and as such based on frailty or lack of mental development at risk for abuse and neglect and sadly, rape.

the perp that raped me had to do a lot to get thru years of training. he used charm, safety and his confidence man to do all that. and then he took what he wanted and it got him off i wager because he knows that in anythng CLOSE to a fair fight, I would mop the floor with him. though his 2ndary mate, teh one who restrained me... he does scare me. a topic for another time.

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Once you hear the details of victory, it is hard to distinguish it from a defeat.

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#372346 - 10/13/11 11:37 PM Re: Cuteness and ASA [Re: Tyr]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
As Former Texan noted above this thread and the forum it is in, the ASA forum, are specifically geared toward survivors of adult sexual assault.

Due to the continuing controversy regarding threads in the ASA forum and this thread in particular being diverted to the CSA topic, and as a result of request/s submitted to the modteam, this thread is being locked. If there is sufficient feeling among ASA survivors that it be reopened I will happily grant that request.

Remember gentlemen, if you wish to discuss CSA topics most of the forums on this board are dedicated to that. Please post your CSA topics and responses appropriately to those forums/threads.

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“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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