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#365010 - 06/27/11 06:29 AM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: 1lifenow]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
Ever fixed Mark, I still think you think you've got it all figured out that gay equals gay forever. No one is forcing any therapy on anyone. I was gay; then I knew I wasn't. According to your logic, I was a gay guy and therefore I shouldn't be permitted to pursue reparative therapy because it would be harmful.

When I was in my early 20's, I had a therapist who was assigned to me through a medical school who was gay. I was with him for a year, left and came back in my mid 20's and started to talk about how I realized that at 13 when an adult male who was a stranger had sexual relations with me that I thought it was sexual abuse and that I might not be gay, he tried to persuade me that was the wrong path to pursue. Those were his words. He thought I was gay and that was it. He did so much damage to me by increasing my self-doubt and isolation. It lingered for years.

So your ideas about reparative therapy are wrong and offensive because you think you know more than you do. And its all under the umbrella of "don't ever hurt a gay guy" as though a gay person's pain is worse. That is not true and gays don't have it worse and are not the ultimate victims. This is about sexual abuse and you and others made it about harm to gays through absolutely no evidence except anecdotal evidence.

What, because you read one or two guys saying they were "harmed" by reparative therapy that its wrong? What if they just weren't ready for it? What if they went into it with the agenda of belittling it? There's absolutely nothing conclusive about what you've written, you have no personal experience with it and yet you act like you actually know something.

The thread is about SSA. If you want to write about gay affirmative therapy, start a new thread. No one here is against gay affirmative therapy; people here are for SSA therapy. Your view isn't right, its just your view.

Do I think gay affirmative therapy is harmful? Does it matter? I think SSA therapy is helpful to me and in recovering both from my abuse and my SSA. And by the way, I don't believe the my SSA stem just from my abuse. I was abused because I was already SSA afflicted and the circumstances were such that I was in a position to be abused. My abuse just made my SSA problem more confused. I believe SSA therapy is treating a root disorder in me but I don't believe that other people, gay or straight, don't each have their own path to pursue.

I am all for healing. In my case it is healing both from the abuse and SSA. But this group is about healing from abuse. I support every man's right to find out how best to heal from the abuse. But I don't need any other man who has no experience except his own fears that are based on anecdotal, second-, third- and fourth-hand internet-based evidence to give me advice on work that I have first-hand experience doing.

I was in a therapeutic mens group for sexual abuse survivors and there was a gay man in there with the views that I was gay and that was it and he attacked me verbally and angrily. I saw that it was because it touched fears in him that made him question his entire foundation. That is his problem; if you have the same problem, its your problem. Its not my problem to make you or others comfortable with yourselves. If you actually did gay affimative therapy and it worked fully and completely, you'd have no issue with other therapies that made other people feel the whole and complete.

As a gay man, I used to seek out injustice and the wrongs against gays. I was always looking for it. And I found it even when it wasn't there. I now know I was a hurt boy rejecting people before they could reject me, especially rejecting other men. I was spiteful, mean, lonely, intellectual, analytical, convinced I was always right. I was part of Act Up in NYC in the late 80's/early 90's and realized it was just a bunch of angry boys, angry at being gay, angry at their dads, angry at anything but mostly angry at their own confusion and dissatisfaction. I know now that I was intolerant when I was preaching tolerance. Really, it was all about ME and you had to agree with what I was saying because I knew better but I knew nothing. I just knew anger and self-justifying behavior.

Now, I admit I only know what I know through my own personal experience. Do I generalize that to everyone else? I do not. I do however have opinions that differ from typical gay affirmative therapy but I haven't lived in another man's skin so I don't know what is going to work for another man. Do I believe gay affirmative therapy can be as harmful as reparative therapy? Absolutely, no doubt. But I wouldn't go into a gay affirmative therapy thread to spout off my uninformed, lacking experience opinion based on things that I've read to try to convince others that I am right.

_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#365014 - 06/27/11 07:27 AM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: EdfromNYC]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
I find your responses confusing because they put forward views and opinions as mine that I haven't actually expressed and don't agree with. I can only assume you haven't read the entire thread to get the full context of this discussion.

I have no certainty about whether and when someone is gay or straight and so my focus in this SSA thread has been to find a middle ground where treatment for SSA is something we can all talk about if it is what the individual wants, and where gay-affirming therapy can be talked about if that's what the individual wants. I object to the *ideology* of people like Nicolosi and Rekers (and to their less-than-professional practices), but I'm at least as disturbed by the idea of a gay therapist putting forward their own agenda in a relationship that has to be first and foremost about their client's healing. That's simply wrong. That's the reason I cited Lee Beckstead who has done work in this area exploring the agendas of therapists *on both sides* and how that loses sight of the clients needs and goals. From one of my earlier posts in this thread:

Quote:
Rather than looking at Nicolosi, why not look at the evaluation of the options and understand how ideology affects them? Cures vs. Choices: Agendas in Sexual Reorientation Therapy by A. Lee Beckstead Ph.D. Dr. Beckstead has experience working with survivors and his work assessing the outcomes of different therapies places more options on the table for clients to choose from.

Some of us know that we are straight, some know that we are gay, and some are confused about our sexuality by our abuse, and perhaps other life experiences. I'm for clients being able to set their own goals in therapy and pursue them when it is *their needs* that are front and center and not the ideology of the practitioner.

I contend that all treatment options need to be on the table for clients dealing with SSA - both straight and gay affirming. In this, I don't see a disagreement, do you?

Given how little I think we actually disagree, I can't help but feel you are having an argument with, or are angry with, someone else and that I'm being used as a convenient, if poorly fitted, proxy for that person.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#365020 - 06/27/11 08:37 AM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: pufferfish]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: pufferfish
Nicolosi's ideas are a lot like those advocated in books on fostering masculinity in boys. I wrote a post on it yesterday. Nobody questioned the post in that context.

http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthr...4882#Post364882

Thanks Pufferfish, I've only read Pollack's "Real Boys" which I really got a lot out of. In fact, I recommended it to my brother as he and his wife are bringing up two boys. I liked the approach Pollack took especially regarding "The Boy Code" and gender non-conformant behavior in boys. This section strikes me as pretty succinct:

Quote:
'"No sissy stuff." Perhaps the most traumatizing and dangerous injunction thrust upon boys and men is the literal gender straightjacket that prohibits them from expressing feelings or urges seen (mistakenly) as feminine - dependence, warmth, empathy. According to the ideal of "no sissy stuff" such feelings and behavior are taboo. Rather than being allowed to explore these emotional states and activities, boys are prematurely forced to shut them out, to become self-reliant. And when boys start to break under the strain, when nonetheless they display "feminine" feelings or behaviors, they are usually greeted not with empathy, but with ridicule, with taunts and threats that shame them for their failure to act and feel in stereotypically "masculine" ways. And so boys become determined never to act that way again - they bury those feelings.'

One of the reasons I recommended this book to my brother is that he has already expressed a fear that one of his boys is gay simply based on feelings and behavior that my brother perceives as gender non-confirming - the kid was barely even 5 when he formed this opinion. I tend to think that's more a product of his own homophobia than truly gender non-conforming at this stage - he seems like a very ordinary boy of his age to me.

In "Real Boys", Pollack advocates for letting boys explore these emotional states and behaviors without punishing them. This seems in very stark contrast to Nicolosi, Rekers, and their colleagues who have advocated punishing and shaming boys whose behavior they deem "effeminate", regardless of what their actual sexual orientation might be.

It's worth noting that the "behavior modification" that Rekers used on Kirk Murphy resulted in a similar determination "never to act that way again" but didn't change his self-reported sexual orientation or lead to a better health outcome.

I'm traveling so I don't have access to the print copy of "Real Boys" right now, but I know Pollack covers the development and experiences of boys inclusively - straight and gay.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#365109 - 06/28/11 04:20 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
This statement right here states your problem in full:
"I object to the *ideology* of people like Nicolosi and Rekers (and to their less-than-professional practices)..."

What do you know besides a few snippets that you've read? What do you know besides anecdotal evidence of "harms" to mysterious no-name people? You've imagined really bad things that aren't happening on the scale you think but you're convinced that the "middle ground" that you see as the "middle ground" is the place we all should meet.

We don't have to meet in your middle ground. We can disagree completely and still recover from sexual abuse. I can choose to clean up my SSA and recover from my abuse. For you to try to argue against something that helps others is wrong.

There does not have to be a middle ground. You can do it your way and I can do it mine. We don't have to agree just because we're abuse survivors. I'm here primarily for recovery from my abuse; my SSA is tangentially related but it is related.

I try things and see if they work and keep an open mind. I no longer read the internet and base my opinions on out of context statements by those with axes to grind. I don't let second-, third-, fourth-, fifth-hand relations of events make up my mind. Contempt prior to investigation is an awful way to try to live happily.

I truly say to each his own, without the parameters that you want others to meet for your own reasons. If it works for someone, why does it matter if some therapist puts out his agenda?

That middle ground argument is you wanting others to see it you way.



Edited by EdfromNYC (06/28/11 09:07 PM)
_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#365141 - 06/28/11 10:45 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: EdfromNYC]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
This is no longer a productive discussion.

The only way we might get to say "to each his own" is if you agree that having a gay therapist impose their ideology on a patient (something you objected to) is as valid and as acceptable as having a "reparative" therapist do the same (something I object to). I don't believe either are acceptable - you believe at least one, if not both, are acceptable. I guess we're done.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

Top
#365184 - 06/29/11 08:24 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
Gentlemen,

This is a topic that will never be resolved between individuals who come from as diverse background and philosophy as is evident in this conversation. We believe the usefulness of this discussion has run it's course and is currently serving only to fuel unproductive discord and anger. With that in mind this thread is being closed. We ask that the discussion not be carried to other threads unless or until those involved can treat each other with respect and civility. Any discussions that do not meet that basic criteria will be closed and further action taken if deemed necessary.

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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